Topic: Anyone using the SE Electronics SE4400a? Multi pattern LD Mic

[carlbeck]

I haven't seen any mention around here about this large diaphragm mic. It looks like an AKG 414 clone with switchable patterns, the sound is supposed to be that of the older 414 without the presence peak though so I don't know if that would work for our typical application of concert recording. Overall it looks like a pretty neat mic so I'm surprised no one has mentioned it at least especially for the price. Small, neat shock mount design, omni, card, supercard & figure of eight. $1500 for a matched pair.

http://www.seelectronics.com/se4400a-pair-mic

A perfect all-arounder! Many mics claim to be able to do anything, but this one really can! The sE4400a is as at home above a drum kit as it is in front of a screaming tube amp - and it can still handle more subdued sources such as vocals. Using a twin-diaphragm design, the sE4400a sports cardioid, hypercardioid, omni, and figure 8 polar patterns, letting you put this black beauty to work doing just about anything. While the sE4400a takes its cues from the sE2200a, the sE4400a spent nearly two years being tested in professional studio and broadcast facilities around the world to make sure it was truly an all-around sucess.

But a great-sounding mic is only truly helpful if it's easy to position - and the sE4400a is very easy to get where you want it. The sE4400a is one of the smallest large-diaphragm mics around, letting you slip into places most mics can't go. Plus, the flat-fronted sE4400a lets you get right up on a grille cloth for an up-front sound. Each sE4400a comes with a unique shock mount which allows you to fit the mounted mic into tiny spaces, or invert the shock clamp to extend the mic fully outside the shock mount for close mic-ing applications or vocals. It also comes with a full, steel re-enforced, black aluminium, and signature sE flight case. Plus, the rubberized black finish doesn't interfere with stage lights.

sE Electronics sE4400a Condenser Microphone Features at a Glance:

Frequency Response: 20Hz-20KHz
10/20dB pads
Sensitivity: 14.1mv/pa-37db ± 1dB
Polar Pattern: Cardioid, Figure 8, Omni, supercardioid
Impedance: less than or equal to 50 Ohms
Equivalent Noise Level: 17dB (A weighted)
Max SPL for 0.5% THD@1000Hz: 130dB
Power Requirement: Phantom power 48V±4V
Connector: 3-pin

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Being a satisfied 414 owner, I'd be interested to hear some samples of these mics in action, too.  sE Electronics also makes an SDC called the sE4 that has different capsules and a matched pair, with only the card caps, can be had for around $700.  Wouldn't mind hearing that one as well.

[carlbeck]

I'm pretty interested in them, I like the hyper option. Some reviews say super, some say hyper so I'm not sure which is which but reading more about them they do have a slight HF lift in the 10k region. I'm not sure samples will help in our typical use though since most of them are solo instruments in a studio. Reading the reviews some claim they sound a lot like the 414 while others say they do not. The real question is which 414? As we know there are many variants of the 414 but the reviews that do mention them in comparison to the 414 claim them to sound like the old 414 with brass capsules fwiw. The tape op review below is pretty thorough. What's also interesting is that while they are built in the orient they own the factory & do not mfr microphones or capsules for others companies, they also note the capsules are built by hand. I have no doubt that most of the newer AKG products & the various competitors also mfr in the orient but more than likely use whatever factory is available. Interesting product for sure & I'm very tempted to get a set to play with just to have a LD in my bag at a reasonable price.

http://tapeop.com/reviews/gear/74/se4400a-large-diaphragm-condenser-mic/

[groovon]

Regarding 'sounding like an early C414' ...

From what I've read, no Chinese-made capsule is a true CK-12 design (the CK-12 is the edge-terminated capsule which made the AKG C-12 and early 414s famous).
So far, all Chinese-made LDCs are based on the Neumann K-67 design, which is relatively easy to mass produce. A true C-12 -type capsule is extremely complex and requires specialized knowledge and extensive hand fitting, which is why there are relatively few being made, and they generally cost between $350 and $500 each.

Not to say that K-67 -type Chinese capsules can't 'sound' excellent. And some are definitely better-made than others.

(PS - There are a few 'edge-terminated' Chinese capsules on the market that may look like a CK-12, however they still have K-67 -style backplates.)

Dave

[carlbeck]

Regarding 'sounding like an early C414' ...

From what I've read, no Chinese-made capsule is a true CK-12 design (the CK-12 is the edge-terminated capsule which made the AKG C-12 and early 414s famous).
So far, all Chinese-made LDCs are based on the Neumann K-67 design, which is relatively easy to mass produce. A true C-12 -type capsule is extremely complex and requires specialized knowledge and extensive hand fitting, which is why there are relatively few being made, and they generally cost between $350 and $500 each.

Not to say that K-67 -type Chinese capsules can't 'sound' excellent. And some are definitely better-made than others.

(PS - There are a few 'edge-terminated' Chinese capsules on the market that may look like a CK-12, however they still have K-67 -style backplates.)

Dave

Great information, the reviews were trying to compare these to the 414's of the 80's, not the original 414, namely due to the darker sound signature. Regardless, you are correct, I think no one including AKG is capable of recreating the original CK12 although a few aftermarket boutique manufacturers have come as close as possible. Listening to the samples was impressive, they sounded great, someone in a GS thread summed it up best by saying it sounds as if AKG & Nuemann had a love child.

In the end though I caved & went with the old standard, AKG 414 XLS matched stereo set. Mostly for the resale value, the proven performance & sub card option. If the SE's were priced a little lower I would have grabbed them but once you start to look at the real street price the difference wasn't great enough to sway me.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Going through the photos on SE's website, it looks like there is a 5th pattern if you put the pattern selectors at the center detent but I can't quite make out the symbol.  A cross between card and supercard?  Would that make it a hypercard?

[carlbeck]

Going through the photos on SE's website, it looks like there is a 5th pattern if you put the pattern selectors at the center detent but I can't quite make out the symbol.  A cross between card and supercard?  Would that make it a hypercard?

I don't think so, one of the demos I saw indicated that you switch it to card then use the other switch to go hyper, I'm pretty certain they are hyper vs super according to the website. I did hear a sample from a gentleman on you tube who has a series about home recording where he uses the 4400a exclusively, it was a recording of his band in his studio using the one mic? I'd assume it was the stereo pair but anyway, it sounded great but with most studio work it is a tuned room using a preamp, compressor & eq techniques up close vs our typical distances.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

^^  So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you have the possibility of of either supercard or hypercard in addition to card, omni, fig-8 patterns?  I can't say the SE Electronics literature is much help as they seem to use the two terms interchangeably, which they are not exactly.  On the link in the first post of this thread under "Specs" they have supercard listed as one of the patterns.  However if you go to the "Downloads" tab and click on "Printable Product Info" the resulting PDF has the pattern listed as hypercard.

[carlbeck]

^^  So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you have the possibility of of either supercard or hypercard in addition to card, omni, fig-8 patterns?  I can't say the SE Electronics literature is much help as they seem to use the two terms interchangeably, which they are not exactly.  On the link in the first post of this thread under "Specs" they have supercard listed as one of the patterns.  However if you go to the "Downloads" tab and click on "Printable Product Info" the resulting PDF has the pattern listed as hypercard.

Exactly, I saw more reference to HyperCard so I went with that but you're right, they list it both ways in their literature. Either way though there is only a choice of omni, card, hyper or super whatever they call it & omni.

[noahbickart]

there is no firm definition of either "hypercardioid" or "supercardioid." Manufacturers use both terms to describe anything in between Cardioid and Bi-Directional.

[DSatz]

> there is no firm definition of either "hypercardioid" or "supercardioid."

A hypercardioid is precisely halfway between a cardioid and a figure-8 in the following sense:

- omni = 100% pressure response, 0% pressure-gradient response
- cardioid = a 50/50 mixture of pressure response and pressure-gradient response
- hypercardioid = a 25/75 mixture
- figure-8 = 0/100, a/k/a pure pressure gradient response

Supercardioid is defined as the pattern with the maximum of 0-degree sensitivity relative to its sensitivity for sound arriving at perfectly random angles. That works out to a place that's essentially midway between cardioid and hypercardioid. IOW there's as much difference between cardioid and supercardioid as there is between supercardioid and hypercardioid; they're not just incidental gradations.

> Manufacturers use both terms to describe anything in between Cardioid and Bi-Directional.

No argument there. But in general, very few such microphones are closer to bi-directional or even to hypercardioid; most are closer to supercardioid.

--I think that for most people, the first level of understanding is to realize that microphones (other than pure pressure transducers and pure pressure-gradient transducers) don't naturally slot themselves into any one particular "classic" pattern; it's entirely a matter of design and execution. Even at one spot frequency such as 1 kHz, where the nominal pattern of a microphone is usually measured, the pattern can be anywhere on the spectrum from omni to figure-8.

--best regards

[MIQ]

Are there any more firm definitions for "open", " wide", hypo or subcardioid patterns?  Seems like a similar situation. Omni, card and bidirectional seem to have pretty fixed ideals for their nominal polar responses but the other polar responses in between don't seem to have as well defined ideals.   

As you've mentioned before, it is worth learning how to read polar response diagrams. One way to make reasonable comparisons between mics is to look at their polar patterns and see how they compare as they vary vs frequency.  They often reveal important differences between mics with the "same" polar description but different physical constructions. LD mics will behave differently than SD mics off axis partially due to the physical size of the LD mic body and the diaphragm itself.  Looking at the high freq polar response of tiny lav omni mics shows how "omni" they remain even at the highest frequencies when compared to other omni mics.  Again the physical construction differences are driving this.

[DSatz]

Now, "wide cardioid" and "hypocardioid" truly do fit noahbickart's description: There is no firm definition. There's not even a flabby definition, except that they're somewhere between omni and cardioid while being distinct from either one, and that people who say "hypocardioid" seem to feel as if they're superior to people who say "wide cardioid."

In my youth I objected to "wide cardioid" because I felt that a pattern is either cardioid or it's not, and it's cardioid if its sensitivity at a given angle of sound incidence is proportional to (1 + cos theta) / 2. But if that were applied strictly there might not be any actual cardioids in the world--and even if so, they could only be called cardioid in the midrange.

Nowadays I want to get along with people even if that means being a little less picky about language. If people spell "cardioid" correctly I can overlook the rest.

Historically, the earliest usage I can find is in the 1979 product literature for the Neumann U 89 with its five patterns. They called this setting "breite Niere" in German and "wide-angle cardioid" in English. It wasn't the first available microphone with such a pattern, but it's the first I can find where the pattern was given a name. -- The first single-pattern "wide cardioid" microphone capsule was the Schoeps MK 21 in 1987; they, too called it "breite Niere" in German, but "wide cardioid" in English and "infracardioïde" in French.

"Open cardioid" is a horse of a different color, being purely a Schoeps invention. The capsule design came first, then the model designations MK 22 and CCM 22; for a while they considered using the number 24 instead, to hint at the combination of omni and cardioid. Finally the names "OffeneNiere®" and "open cardioid" were decided upon for the directional pattern itself. The German version of this term is a registered trade mark of Schoeps. Other proposals which we talked about were "gentle cardioid," "smooth cardioid," "extended cardioid" and (among ourselves as a joke at one point--at least I hope it was a joke for the others), "phat cardioid."

For a while during this discussion we searched for familiar objects that had the same shape as the polar diagram--grapefruit, something Europeans eat called a "pomelo," and at one point I took a photo of a raw onion, used PaintShop Pro to superimpose the Schoeps logo onto it, and sent it in for their consideration. They got back at me by engraving my MK 22 capsules without telling me (see below).

--best regards

[DSatz]

Well, part of my point ("and I do have one") is that the traditional microphone patterns shouldn't be reified (treated as if they were established in some objective reality other than as socially-determined human inventions) the way they often are; the universe didn't hand down any of what we now consider to be "the patterns" other than the two at the ends of the spectrum (pressure <-> pressure gradient). Cardioid and all its variants are just arbitrary mixtures created by humans for their/our convenience and for commercial reasons.

There's no way of building any type of microphone that makes it naturally come out a cardioid, for example; you always have to design it in detail and carry out that design with that specific aim in mind, then test it and tweak it to make "cardioidness" happen the best you can. Also, in your acoustic design you have to choose between maximum 180-degree rejection in the midrange vs. a null that gives more nearly uniform response across a wider spectrum, but isn't as "sharp" or "deep" in the midrange--which again is a spectrum of possibilities, not just a point "A" and a point "B" with nothing in between.

--Are people aware of this:  http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/polarflex ? Its very existence provides a useful thought experiment, and yes, it works.

--best regards

[noahbickart]

I'd love to use an AU version of such a plugin.

and I have always though it strange that the schoeps "double m/s" uses 2 mk4v capsules in addition to an mk8 instead of an mk2 and and mk8.