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Author Topic: Why the V2>MME Combo???  (Read 7142 times)

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Offline adventuregeorge

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Why the V2>MME Combo???
« on: February 27, 2004, 12:40:24 PM »
This may be a stupid question, but I hope you guys can bear with me....

I have a MME (ADK's>MME>Dell inspiron 5150) and why are people running the V2???  Does the MME have a bad pre??  what do you gain by going with the V2.  To me that means another battery pack set-up and more gear to lug around. Is  there is a noticable sound difference??

I really confused a would love some advice

Thanks ???
« Last Edit: February 27, 2004, 02:14:28 PM by adventuregeorge »

jpschust

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2004, 01:02:10 PM »
you gain clarity on the pre stage.  

cpclark

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2004, 01:09:31 PM »
if you dont really like the minime pre, then why not add an outboard pre, if you can take lugging around the extra gear, why not add a better sound the setup while keeping the best a/d out there and uv22hr

Offline plucks

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2004, 01:47:33 PM »
This may be a stupid question, but I hope you guys can bear with me....

I have a MME (ADK's>MME>Dell inspiron 5150) and why are people running the V2???  Does the MME have a bad pre??  what do you gain by going with the V2.  To me that means another battery pack set-up and more gear to lug around. Is  there is a noticable sound difference??

I really confused a would love some adive

Thanks ???
The MME pre/gain stage is not considered to be the best out there by a lot of people.  Thats part of the reason that Apogee made the MiniMicPre (MMP).  
The V2 preamp is the finest out there!  You get a better end result, that is cleaner sounding and more detailed too.  
You would need another battery if your MMe is 12v or if you want to run for extended periods of time.  You could get away with 1 battery for some time.  
As Cpclark said, the UV22HR is the key in the MMe when recording in 16 bit.  In 24 bit, it doesnt make as much of a difference.   If you are recording in 24 bit, V3 has the same pre as the V2 and same AD stage as the MiniMe.  BUT, the V3 is not as easy to get to your computer, so you would need another box to act as an interface...unless you have built in SPDIF on your computer.  
It's a toss up for a lot of people.  Recording to a computer with a MIniMe is a lot easier and more affordable than the V3 route.  

no such thing as a stupid question!

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Offline adventuregeorge

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2004, 02:13:37 PM »
Thanks guys, I new you'd come through
 ;D  I saw a guy selling is V2 on this forum, I may have see if we can make a deal.

Offline Professor chaos

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2004, 03:56:22 PM »
     i thought apogee has upgraded the pre , and the current pre amp is much better .
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Offline Tim

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2004, 04:08:27 PM »
no.

instead of upgrading the pre for a fee (like they did with the ad1000) they came out with the Mini-MP(mic pre). An entirely seperate box that costs around $850 (I think).

here's how they advertise the Mini-Mp "The Mini-MP takes the reference quality of the Trak2 and the premium Mini-Me pre-amps to the next level."

which is funny because they advertised the $1200 MiniMe as a "trak2 to go".

they make great a/d's but that company sucks...
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marc0789

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2004, 04:43:27 PM »
without rehashing, they really do suck. Why not offer an upgrade to the mme, rather than making a new box? I'd have gladly paid a couple hundred for that, and the, grrr, line in modification they talked about but never delivered on. I'd have done that, but running two of these ergonomically challenged boxes is too much, sorry Nizz.

cpclark

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2004, 06:14:17 PM »
without rehashing, they really do suck. Why not offer an upgrade to the mme, rather than making a new box? I'd have gladly paid a couple hundred for that, and the, grrr, line in modification they talked about but never delivered on. I'd have done that, but running two of these ergonomically challenged boxes is too much, sorry Nizz.

MMP=$$$
come on people, think like a business! ;)

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2004, 06:55:25 PM »
without rehashing, they really do suck. Why not offer an upgrade to the mme, rather than making a new box? I'd have gladly paid a couple hundred for that, and the, grrr, line in modification they talked about but never delivered on. I'd have done that, but running two of these ergonomically challenged boxes is too much, sorry Nizz.

MMP=$$$
come on people, think like a business! ;)

they shouldve thought like a business, 200 dollars is more widespread spent than 800, so they wouldve gotten MANY requests for upgrades, and prolly not so much on the MMP
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Offline dmonterisi

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2004, 10:04:50 AM »

As Cpclark said, the UV22HR is the key in the MMe when recording in 16 bit.  In 24 bit, it doesnt make as much of a difference.   If you are recording in 24 bit, V3 has the same pre as the V2 and same AD stage as the MiniMe.  

the v3 has the same a/d chips as the mme?  really??  it's just the dither that's different?  first time i've ever heard that.

marc0789

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2004, 10:40:02 AM »
I'd heard that awhile back. not sure what the difference is, running 16 bit, then, but v2>mme sure does not sound like v3 to me. Like Damon has pointed out, for those brave enough to venture into 24 bit, it doesn't mean much. It's just dinosaurs like me...... 8)

Offline dmonterisi

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2004, 10:45:42 AM »
i've never heard that the v3 and mme are the same AD just different dither circuits.  i don't think that to be the case.  i think they sound far too different for it just to be dither.  maybe i'm nuts.  who knows.  in the comps i've heard, v2>mme and v3>mme blow just v3 out of the water.  i mean it's not even close.  this is all at 16 bit.  and i think the differences i heard are too stark to be differences in dither.  i've done dither comps at home comparing v3 @16bit (using ANSR), then v3 to the computer @ 24bit and dithered using uv22, uv22hr and a couple other that are on wavelab.  the difference was much more subtle than the comps i've downloaded.  

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2004, 10:57:52 AM »
yep, night and day to me too. and to my ears, the v2>hhb even beat the v3 alone, and I think the hhb a/d is just "ok", it is a little dry and two dimensional.

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2004, 10:58:20 AM »
in the comps i've heard, v2>mme and v3>mme blow just v3 out of the water.  i mean it's not even close.

That's b/c the V3's ADC/dither sucks.  ::)  I love inflammatory posts like this...so entertaining!  :P

Care to elaborate on:
  • the stark and/or subtle differences you hear between the comp variations
  • details of each comp - gear used, location, config, etc.
  • what sonic characteristics you prefer / dislike in each of the different comp variations
  • your playback system
Not trying to razz you, Damon, just trying to inject some more useful dialogue into the discussion beyond "X blows Y away".
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marc0789

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2004, 11:02:31 AM »
I think it might be that running v3 really does preserve what the mics hear...problem being that depending on the mic, that's not all that pleasing to the ear. most definitely there is some coloration introduced when running v2>mme, you get that mme pre light in the mix. to me, the 1k pre was a little thin sounding, and running v2>1k, you got a little of that, but running v2>mme, you get a little fat/warmth. Just a theory. I like schoeps>v3 and 140>v3 just fine, no extra color needed. DPA or AKG,,,,different story. Not that the tapes are bad, but not even a little warmth.

Offline dmonterisi

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2004, 11:16:09 AM »
in the comps i've heard, v2>mme and v3>mme blow just v3 out of the water.  i mean it's not even close.

That's b/c the V3's ADC/dither sucks.  ::)  I love inflammatory posts like this...so entertaining!  :P

Care to elaborate on:
  • the stark and/or subtle differences you hear between the comp variations
  • details of each comp - gear used, location, config, etc.
  • what sonic characteristics you prefer / dislike in each of the different comp variations
  • your playback system
Not trying to razz you, Damon, just trying to inject some more useful dialogue into the discussion beyond "X blows Y away".

razz all you want brian...my point was more to say that from the comps i've heard there was a very big difference between the sources such that it led me to believe that there was more at work than just dither.  the comps that i've heard were from craig davis at the 930 club taping galactic, 4022's>v3/v3>mme.  don't remember the details of it or exactly what my thoughts on the comp are.  i found that the v3>mme was fuller, more detailed and more balanced.  i still liked the v3 recordings, hell i still run just a v3.  i believe there is a substantial difference but to me, it doesn't warrant another 1100 worth of gear and more batteries to carry, i got enough shit in my bag.

Offline nic

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2004, 11:50:54 AM »
"ergonomically challenged boxes"

what exactly about the Apogee boxes is so "ergonomically challenging"?
is it the depth? the size?
yes, the Apogee is bigger(by less than 2 cubic inches)

what is so bad about these boxes(other than you dont like the pre or ad section)?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2004, 11:56:24 AM by luvean »


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Offline dmonterisi

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2004, 11:58:52 AM »
when i had the mme, in addition to disliking the pre (i was not running an outboard pre), the odd length created weird issues in running it vertically.  it did not fit well in my portable bag (mountainsmith cairn).   the knobs are not recessed and can easily be jolted.  the metering blows.  the xlr's connectors do not lock.  the power connector is fragile.

Offline Todd R

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2004, 12:37:23 PM »
i've never heard that the v3 and mme are the same AD just different dither circuits.  i don't think that to be the case.  i think they sound far too different for it just to be dither.  

The MMe and the V3 use either the same instrumentation amp on the analog side, or at least a very similar Burr-Brown instrumentation amp.  I forget which, either way, they implement a very similar current feedback topology.  The V3 and the MMe may use the same A/D chip as well, I hadn't heard, but wouldn't find it surprising as there aren't that many candidates to choose from.

But even if the V3 and the MMe use the same op amp on the analog side and the same A/D chip, this is a far, far cry from saying the only difference is their dither implementation.  Check around on audiophile sites, you'll find there is good money to be made modifying off-the-shelf audio components.  The implementation of a design goes far beyond the main components like the op amp and the A/D converter chip.  Exactly how the signal is routed through these components and what other components the signal goes through will influence the sound.  One design could de-couple the signal from the phantom supply with capacitors, and another with transformers and this will make a huge difference in sound.  As it turns out, both the MMe and V3 use capacitor decoupling, but they well could be using different capacitors which will influence the signal.  Any differences in any of the components in the signal path can influence the sound.  The design and implementation of the power supply and on-board power regulation will influence the sound.  The design and implementation of the phantom powering will influence the sound.  Hell, even the layout of the components on the board and the layout of the power and ground planes on the board will influence the sound.

Give me a couple weeks or so, and I could probably design an implement a working pre + A/D converter that uses the same Burr Brown instumentation amp and the same A/D converter chip.  And I could guarantee you it would sound like utter, complete crap.   :P

The V3 and MMe are two completely different beasts, whether or not they share a couple of key components.

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Re:Why the V2>MME Combo???
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2004, 04:56:23 PM »
I have run two U89i > V3/V3 > MMe comparisons in the last week and to me, the V3 > MMe tapes are incredibly smoother, more detailed and overall more musical. The straight V3 tapes sound more sterile, harsh and clinical sounding. I can see, however, the advantages of running the V3 alone in certain situations with the U89's. The straight V3 tapes are not bad sounding in the slightest bit, It's just the MMe smooths the sound out and, to me, makes the recording sound more dynamic and musical.

 

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