Topic: Choosing a mid-level recorder

[captainentropy]

Thanks for the reply voltronic. That's good to know.

So, why is it then that having a preamp sounds better? For example, in this video, to me, it clearly sounds better to go preamp (MixPre in this case) into the recorder (DR680 in this case) line level vs mic level. It's a top quality recorder, right? Is it just that the preamps in a recorder are never going to be as good as a (good) dedicated preamp? Sounds like I answered my own question maybe hahaha. https://vimeo.com/16681934

I'm just wondering that if I had say a Sound Devices MixPre (Shure FP-24) going into a PCM-M10 would it be objectively better than using a high quality 70D or PMD661 or R26, etc.?

Or, is it that, in the above video I'm hearing an unamplified guitar and not drums and synths and guitars or whatever all amplified to 120 dB? In other words in a loud concert would the details by "hidden" by the shear loudness? I'm not an audio engineer so I don't really know. I just know that so far, the recordings I've made have suuucked in comparison to mine.

Here's an example. This guy, Michael Zelner, makes awesome recordings. I was at this show and also recorded it and mine was awful in comparison. Serviceable, but not good. Yes, he uses an SD 744T and MG M300s. So there's that

https://archive.org/details/acollective2012-09-22.flac16

We both taped this show too and he used an AT825 mic instead of the M300s. I was using Studio Projects C4s. His still was better (though not as dramatically so as before).

https://archive.org/details/acollective2016-03-07.flac16

Ditto for this one https://archive.org/details/gybe2013-09-09.m300.flac16

I'm guessing the preamps in the 744T are really that good? MixPre level maybe? I'm just trying to get better recordings without having $5,000 worth of gear, sigh.

[voltronic]

I think for the recorders in the price bracket we're talking about, the built-in preamps are never going to equal something like an external preamp like a MixPre - Sound Devices makes gear for pros.  The electronics behind the input of recorders like this are very different than what's used in the built-in preamps in a recorder in the sub-$500 range.  The MixPre has an excellent set of Lundahl input transformers for example.  But like I said, I don't know that you'll hear the difference unless you're recordings something like in that video where you can focus on small details like the subtle tonality of an instrument.

The SD 7-series preamps are actually a step in quality above the MixPre.  Again, Sound Devices is professional gear.

My own experience with the MixPre/FP24>M10 has been that it is superior to the 70D built-in preamps, until I got my 70D modified and now the sound quality of the modded 70D is equal to the M10>FP24, although noisier at very high gain levels (which I never find myself using).

[2manyrocks]

Quality of sound source>room acoustic>mic quality followed by preamp/recorder.  I suspect some recordings get blamed on the recorder when a better quality mic would be the better bang for your buck.  A pair of dpa 4061s powered by a battery box run into an m10 sound very nice in the right space, for example.  But omni pattern mics might not be the best choice in some noisy venues.

But since you want to use xlr phantomed powered mics, you either need a preamp or a recorder with phantom power. 

Voltronic certainly has made good recordings with his 70d and his cm3s.  I think voltronic pretty much records just with his 70d instead of using his mixpre.  For $200, I think you would find it difficult to beat the 70d.  Just be sure to use an approved card and use the SD association format utility.

[voltronic]

^ Agree with all of that, and especially the first point about the hierarchy of what makes a good recording.  I'd also put quality of performance in there first.

DPA 4060/4061 are amazing quality and smaller than you can believe, but not only are they omni, they are almost perfectly omni at all frequencies, unlike most other omni mics that become more directional in the high frequencies.  I used them in January for a choir festival in a typical "taper" location mid-audience because of logistical restrictions.  In the past I've used my CM3s here with good results.  The audience was quiet through the choirs singing, but I will absolutely never use the 4061s that far away ever again, unless it's a session recording with no audience.  Every chair squeaking and paper rustling around and behind them was rendered in perfect detail.  So in a rock audience where people are talking, etc. near your setup, you are likely to hear all that business in your recording more than you would care to.

And yes, I only ever go mics > 70D, or mics > FP24> M10.  The second rig right now is a backup, or used on the rare occasions where I'm running 4 channels on the 70D but a co-worker wants a separate recording with his Schoeps mics, and my second rig is much quieter than his H6.

[captainentropy]

I greatly appreciate all of your questions for this nominal noob. I think I'm being sold on the 70D for now. I'll keep looking for a MixPre/FP24 or something equally higher-end.

I'm 100% with you that the venue is the #1 determining factor (acoustics+sound source). So far I've only taped at (if you're familiar with the Bay Area) the Fox Theater Oakland, Warfield, The Chapel (SF), Greek Theater (Berkeley), Great American Music Hall, Uptown Theater (Napa), SF Opera House, Brick and Mortar, and a few others I'm not thinking of. All but the Brick and Mortar have excellent sound systems and acoustics. I always show up early and scout the best site to tape (at The Chapel, the owner helped me even). Unfortunately, at the Fox the best spot is loge seating near the rail but I've never been able to get tickets there. And Bay Area crowds are the worst so it's often contaminated with the people near me yammering on through the whole show or inappropriate screaming.

Thanks again!!

[willndmb]

Remove the fr2le from the discussion. It sounds great and works perfect but in today's world it can't compeat cost vs features to the d60.
The d60 sounds good alone but not as good as littlebox > m10
As others have mentioned it kills the d70 on features for video recording too but if you don't do video then who cares.
I personally like the block shape for my current bag configuration plus use the video features so it's awesome.
The d70 is good if you need four xlr and use an approved card

[captainentropy]

Thanks for the comment on the Fostex. I pretty much was dismissing that one mainly because it was a bit old compared to the others. Maybe that's a silly reason though. I ordered the 70D from Adorama. Same price as the 60D with a coupon code.

I hadn't read the details about why the 60D was better for video than the 70D, but after watching some video reviews I understand them now. Probably not a big deal to me. The 70D is thinner, which is I think one thing I liked so I can better fit it in my bag. Price was the same.

I'll be recording some show this month and next. If they turn out well I'll comment on it.

Thanks!

[2manyrocks]

At the current promotional prices, the 70d is probably the better deal.  There was a point when the 60dmkii was $129 if I am remembering correctly.  They put the prices up and down so much that in a few weeks, pricing could be different than today. 

[jbell]

My 70d has performed flawlessly and I haven't used an approved card!  Good luck with your gear acquisition

[MakersMarc]

A vote for an Oade mod 661. New 550 right now form Doug, I'd guess 350-400 here used. All you need, plus digi in and out.

[captainentropy]

I was thinking about a modded 661 mkii but I was reading somewhere (here or on gearslutz) about a comparison between a stock recorder (forgive me, I forgot which one but it might have been the 661) and the same one with the Oade Concert mod and they sounded indistinguishable. At least to me they did, though others said the same thing. So I felt comfortable with stock being fine.

I'm admittedly very impressionable at this point. Only having the PCM-M10 and no preamp to speak of, and just three (soon to be four) sets of mics I don't have the hands-on experience with other setups. Hence, getting the 70D

I'm still waiting for a Fp-24/MixPre to appear at a reasonable price here or on eBay. The last one went for $430. That seems like the low end for what they sell for on eBay.

[voltronic]

I'm still waiting for a Fp-24/MixPre to appear at a reasonable price here or on eBay. The last one went for $430. That seems like the low end for what they sell for on eBay.

If you're patient, you may find them lower.  I got my FP-24 for much less than maybe 2 years ago, and at the time $400 was top dollar for them on eBay.  The higher prices on that unit could be a bit of supply and demand, but some of the ones you see with asking prices of over $400 are re-lists that didn't sell before.

You could also post an "ISO" in the Yard Sale here.  You have a better chance of finding a good deal here, as well as a well cared-for piece of equipment.

[2manyrocks]

You're already shopping for a mixpre but haven't even received your 70d yet?   Several of the guys recording shows have commented in the 70d thread/saga/mini series that they no longer feel the need for an external preamp with the 70d. 

[captainentropy]

You're already shopping for a mixpre but haven't even received your 70d yet?   Several of the guys recording shows have commented in the 70d thread/saga/mini series that they no longer feel the need for an external preamp with the 70d.

I know! I love gear. It's a weak spot for me. When I had a garage I had car upgrade parts everywhere. I have so much computer hardware, it's a bit much. Camera gear too. Now audio gear

Once I find a "perfect" all around setup I'll let go of some of the other stuff hahaha. At least that's what I tell my wife...

I'll have read through the 70D tome and read about these experiences. My 70D arrives today and I'll be taping some shows soon. Though not having a good preamp limits my ability to compare them

[2manyrocks]

More stuff than time to use it. 

Some pretty good recordings have been made with the 70d.  I hope you like it.  Using an approved card and the sdhc format utility to completely reformat the card will make things go more smoothly.