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Author Topic: More watts aren't necessarily better  (Read 22784 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: More watts aren't necessarily better
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2010, 01:37:28 PM »
I just picked up the biography on Blumlein, and looking forward to reading it.  That man was ahead of his time- investigative and applied science embodied.  He was working on the bleeding edge of technology at the time.  A large portion of the very real advances that have been made are built upon the strong foundation he laid. We owe alot to him.

Linkwitz stealths HRTF at the symphony. ;)
He uses the tools of engineering to decide what matters most in his pursuit of art.

Art (capital A) has no place in engineering.  But engineering is often used to further Art.
Come to think of it, that sums up a large part of the guiding philosophy I operated under when I struggled to make a living as a professional artist.. marketing be damned.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: More watts aren't necessarily better
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2010, 01:41:27 PM »
Here's a list of important goals for a speaker that aims for the big picture of reproduction accuracy:

Flat on-axis response in free-field  (20 Hz –20 kHz)
Frequency independent polar response
Acoustically small size
Low cabinet edge diffraction
Low stored energy (resonances)
Low non-linear distortion (new sounds, intermodulation)
Large dynamic range, high SPL capability
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

mfrench

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Re: More watts aren't necessarily better
« Reply #62 on: September 16, 2010, 01:42:27 PM »
As an artist I can beleaguer this point to death. Where does the original thought come from?
I realize, chicken vs egg - but the thought has to be there before it hits paper as a sketch rendering, prior to the cipherin' stage.

edit: adding clarity of thought to a Sarge rushed post.
honey-do list day,....
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 01:45:20 PM by m0k3 »

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: More watts aren't necessarily better
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2010, 02:36:22 PM »
As an artist I can beleaguer this point to death. Where does the original thought come from?
I realize, chicken vs egg - but the thought has to be there before it hits paper as a sketch rendering, prior to the cipherin' stage.

edit: adding clarity of thought to a Sarge rushed post.
honey-do list day,....

Sound is very personal what some people think sounds others will not. I think its safe to say just because many people own something it does not mean it sounds good. The bottom line is if you want to build the ikea speakers you should if you want something that does not sound like a wet fart in a porcelain toilet you should rethink your plans. You are arguing for the sake of argument. Its not necessary as I dont need to hear that speaker to tell you what it will sound like. My 24 + years of building speakers and working in audio tell me all I need to know.

Chris
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 02:38:36 PM by Church-Audio »
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mfrench

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Re: More watts aren't necessarily better
« Reply #64 on: September 16, 2010, 03:06:41 PM »
I just searched for classic Church Audio speaker cabinet design and came up with,....

Care to link us too your gallery, Chris?,... all those years of speaker design have surely yielded something.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: More watts aren't necessarily better
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2010, 04:46:16 PM »
I just searched for classic Church Audio speaker cabinet design and came up with,....

Care to link us too your gallery, Chris?,... all those years of speaker design have surely yielded something.

Actually I built speakers for my self.. And I did help with designs for sound companies.. Do I have pictures hell no.. But I can tell you I built my first speaker when I was 10 years old. I now have a pair of axiom speakers I got when I was working for them in the test lab as a sound engineer who tested 1000's of speakers and analysed them to choose what ones would go into products. I am no woodworker.. I just liked to build speakers. I know all about speaker design and how to build a good sounding box, lets see your qualifications now that we have talked about mine? Again this is not personal I just dont think the speaker you were talking about was a good design.. So I said so now you are calling my qualifications into question lol thats funny.  I dont have pictures  of all of the concerts I have done sound for does that mean they never happened? lol..... ::)  PS... I never said I designed speakers lol But I sure as hell built lots of cabinets in my day.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 04:47:51 PM by Church-Audio »
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mfrench

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Re: More watts aren't necessarily better
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2010, 05:16:28 PM »
I've built mansions around speakers, with amps and peripheral gear for them that ran into the hundreds of thousands, and the houses won architectural awards, and featured in nat'l trade periodicals and as cover homes in the periodicals.
Its safe to say that I've built a cabinet or two in my day, and I worked directly with the sound designers and architects in the design and installation - and then finishing them so that they disappeared into the home. This included elaborate early surround rigs of original design and construction (we built the enclosures into the homes) :)
These were half million dollar original design audio installations in mid 80's dollars, utilizing Sonus drivers mostly, and giant 15" subwoofers built into floors, under couches, below the beds, in the disco/cabana, you name it. Built into old growth teak, marble, sandstone, plaster,... wherever they needed a custom installation.
I've built a speaker or two in my day.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: More watts aren't necessarily better
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2010, 06:34:22 PM »
I've built mansions around speakers, with amps and peripheral gear for them that ran into the hundreds of thousands, and the houses won architectural awards, and featured in nat'l trade periodicals and as cover homes in the periodicals.
Its safe to say that I've built a cabinet or two in my day, and I worked directly with the sound designers and architects in the design and installation - and then finishing them so that they disappeared into the home. This included elaborate early surround rigs of original design and construction (we built the enclosures into the homes) :)
These were half million dollar original design audio installations in mid 80's dollars, utilizing Sonus drivers mostly, and giant 15" subwoofers built into floors, under couches, below the beds, in the disco/cabana, you name it. Built into old growth teak, marble, sandstone, plaster,... wherever they needed a custom installation.
I've built a speaker or two in my day.


It sounds like you know a thing or two about speakers.. But what does that have to do with the fact I dont like the design? You are making this personal when all I did was say something about a speaker design strange..... Anyway hope you make them and prove me wrong :)
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: More watts aren't necessarily better
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2010, 06:34:58 PM »
Apologies for contributing to side-tracking the thread with world-view defense. Let's get back on track.

More watts aren't necessarily better.  It depends on your goal.

If we can agree that the following things are important attributes for a speaker design that has the goal of maximizing the accurate reproduction of music, with the live performance experience as it’s reference..

Here's a list of important goals for a speaker that aims for the big picture of reproduction accuracy:

Flat on-axis response in free-field  (20 Hz –20 kHz)
Frequency independent polar response
Acoustically small size
Low cabinet edge diffraction
Low stored energy (resonances)
Low non-linear distortion (new sounds, intermodulation)
Large dynamic range, high SPL capability


..then simple single-driver and micro-watt systems fall short in several of those categories.  It's a very difficult goal.

If the goal is high-quality individual musical enjoyment by the listener, then it becomes easy to ignore those short comings and focus on what the system does right and is enjoyable.. which may be utterly sublime.

We can easily ignore those things because of the nature of our brains and the way we hear, which is a good thing given that we really can't get very close to recreating the actual experience of a live musical performance even with speakers that do satisfy all of those conditions.  Fortunately, we’re blessed with the ability to simply overlook the shortcomings.  It makes pursuit of pure enjoyment without critical reference to a live event a much easier to achieve goal, even if it is a moving target that subjectively varies from person to person.. and even personally over time.  Then again, maybe we’d never be satisfied for very long, chasing a chimera.

It all depends on what the goal is, how far you are willing to go to get there and what you are willing to do without. Even using speakers that fully satisfy the above criteria, it is simply impossible to fully reproduce the sound field from an actual event, StarTrek holodeck style, using any current or past technology, be it fine-crafted old-school old analog tube gear or cutting edge digital zillion-channel Wave Front Synthesis Holography.

If someone claims something sounds real, the best question may be, ‘compared to what?’

The live event is a brass ring- an incredibly difficult measure, but at least sets a standard for comparison.  I can’t think of a better one, but chasing that isn’t the only game in town. Thank goodness.  It’s not even a very popular one these days, which is something I personally find unfortunate.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

mfrench

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Re: More watts aren't necessarily better
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2010, 07:07:15 PM »
I've built mansions around speakers, with amps and peripheral gear for them that ran into the hundreds of thousands, and the houses won architectural awards, and featured in nat'l trade periodicals and as cover homes in the periodicals.
Its safe to say that I've built a cabinet or two in my day, and I worked directly with the sound designers and architects in the design and installation - and then finishing them so that they disappeared into the home. This included elaborate early surround rigs of original design and construction (we built the enclosures into the homes) :)
These were half million dollar original design audio installations in mid 80's dollars, utilizing Sonus drivers mostly, and giant 15" subwoofers built into floors, under couches, below the beds, in the disco/cabana, you name it. Built into old growth teak, marble, sandstone, plaster,... wherever they needed a custom installation.
I've built a speaker or two in my day.


It sounds like you know a thing or two about speakers.. But what does that have to do with the fact I dont like the design? You are making this personal when all I did was say something about a speaker design strange..... Anyway hope you make them and prove me wrong :)

The fact is that you're touting your own prowess in electronics, and trying to make me appear the fool for looking towards efficient design speakers that are very well received, on a globally growing scale. I did not say anything about having purchased, or even having heard them. What I have heard is glowing reviews about them based on my own recordings that I've supplied to audio enthusiasts around the world, any number of which have built these speakers.
Back to my building,...
The funny thing about some of our installations, is the way we buried them behind stuff, and in awkward places, like either side of gigantic living reef fish tanks. They were placed behind giant perforated copper screens, faux finished to match stone columns, wood columns, walls, etc. and still sounded fantastic. It was a trip to be looking into a huge aquarium not seeing any speakers, yet getting blasted by a huge realistic sound image through a sheet of patina'd copper screening. The realism was frightening, and it was coming through allot more than a 3/8" baffle, or a gleaming sound distorting screw head.

This is at a time when I was pulling lots and lots of live recordings of massive PA systems, and we would then crank the system to 11 on the suck knob and rock the house out. The owners son was a deadhead, and would come in and turn it up to 12, and blast the beach with live level playback essentially turning a 15k sq.ft. house into a giant ghetto blaster.
I listened to these systems for about 2 years while we finished the house, and knew them intimately: nakamichi dragon cassette decks, x2 for dubbing tapes, and dubbing to R2R as well.
These systems were racks of dozens of David Hafler amps that were directed throughout 15k sq.ft. of the highest custom homes.  I didn't wire it, or that, we were the general contractor/builder, but we were ultimately responsible for the proper construction, and finishing, and were tightly supervised in it by the sound designer.
The few free standing speakers were ADS of various sizes.
I managed to get into  the massive purchase of all the gear, and got a single 120 D.Hafler amp, Hafler pre, and pair of ADS speakers, as my second qualified rig. My first was a Saras speaker pair, garage made by a JBL designer that had just quit, and branched out into biz, around '75.

Don't be smug about the speakers, Chris. They might not be for reproduction of gigantic PA speaker music, electronica, but they make a very nice jazz, classical, chamber, late night sultry speaker, for playback at a listening level appropriate to how the music was/should be naturally presented. A PA system recording would probably crack the cabinets. They're for a mature level of listening.
I've sent a bunch of recordings (dozens) over to my friend from Hong Kong, and for the audio clubs, and David was blown away by the live presentation of acoustic music. I've done the same for people in sweden, denmark, germany, and Finland. They've all been really enthused by what they heard, and the reports back were glowing for what I record.
If my recordings were very well received by such a vast quorum, then I feel that it would be a quality try for a DIY build, or even a kit purchase that I could hotrod. But this is just of the options that I've been exploring.


Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: More watts aren't necessarily better
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2010, 07:21:30 PM »
On the subject of less is more..

I have been shocked by how much better my hifi sounds without a pre-amp.   *Much* better. Specifically, going from my squeezebox > amp > speakers.   In that case, digital attenutation allows me to control the volume.

Apparently others have also discovered this.   With my gear, max volume is not a major concern, unless there is a digital malfunction that sends distortion to the amp.  And that did happen once when there was an apparent FPGA error.  I do lose some volume without the pre-amp.

I have wondered how I might incorporate a turntable without losing fidelity.

This isn't quite fewer watts, but I think the less is more aspect isn't too far off.

Offline Jimna

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Re: More watts aren't necessarily better
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2010, 08:01:47 PM »
but isnt the SB the preamp now?  it controls volume and does the DAC work, I would say you like your SB better than your old preamp.
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: More watts aren't necessarily better
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2010, 11:07:44 PM »
I've built mansions around speakers, with amps and peripheral gear for them that ran into the hundreds of thousands, and the houses won architectural awards, and featured in nat'l trade periodicals and as cover homes in the periodicals.
Its safe to say that I've built a cabinet or two in my day, and I worked directly with the sound designers and architects in the design and installation - and then finishing them so that they disappeared into the home. This included elaborate early surround rigs of original design and construction (we built the enclosures into the homes) :)
These were half million dollar original design audio installations in mid 80's dollars, utilizing Sonus drivers mostly, and giant 15" subwoofers built into floors, under couches, below the beds, in the disco/cabana, you name it. Built into old growth teak, marble, sandstone, plaster,... wherever they needed a custom installation.
I've built a speaker or two in my day.


It sounds like you know a thing or two about speakers.. But what does that have to do with the fact I dont like the design? You are making this personal when all I did was say something about a speaker design strange..... Anyway hope you make them and prove me wrong :)

The fact is that you're touting your own prowess in electronics, and trying to make me appear the fool for looking towards efficient design speakers that are very well received, on a globally growing scale. I did not say anything about having purchased, or even having heard them. What I have heard is glowing reviews about them based on my own recordings that I've supplied to audio enthusiasts around the world, any number of which have built these speakers.
Back to my building,...
The funny thing about some of our installations, is the way we buried them behind stuff, and in awkward places, like either side of gigantic living reef fish tanks. They were placed behind giant perforated copper screens, faux finished to match stone columns, wood columns, walls, etc. and still sounded fantastic. It was a trip to be looking into a huge aquarium not seeing any speakers, yet getting blasted by a huge realistic sound image through a sheet of patina'd copper screening. The realism was frightening, and it was coming through allot more than a 3/8" baffle, or a gleaming sound distorting screw head.

This is at a time when I was pulling lots and lots of live recordings of massive PA systems, and we would then crank the system to 11 on the suck knob and rock the house out. The owners son was a deadhead, and would come in and turn it up to 12, and blast the beach with live level playback essentially turning a 15k sq.ft. house into a giant ghetto blaster.
I listened to these systems for about 2 years while we finished the house, and knew them intimately: nakamichi dragon cassette decks, x2 for dubbing tapes, and dubbing to R2R as well.
These systems were racks of dozens of David Hafler amps that were directed throughout 15k sq.ft. of the highest custom homes.  I didn't wire it, or that, we were the general contractor/builder, but we were ultimately responsible for the proper construction, and finishing, and were tightly supervised in it by the sound designer.
The few free standing speakers were ADS of various sizes.
I managed to get into  the massive purchase of all the gear, and got a single 120 D.Hafler amp, Hafler pre, and pair of ADS speakers, as my second qualified rig. My first was a Saras speaker pair, garage made by a JBL designer that had just quit, and branched out into biz, around '75.

Don't be smug about the speakers, Chris. They might not be for reproduction of gigantic PA speaker music, electronica, but they make a very nice jazz, classical, chamber, late night sultry speaker, for playback at a listening level appropriate to how the music was/should be naturally presented. A PA system recording would probably crack the cabinets. They're for a mature level of listening.
I've sent a bunch of recordings (dozens) over to my friend from Hong Kong, and for the audio clubs, and David was blown away by the live presentation of acoustic music. I've done the same for people in sweden, denmark, germany, and Finland. They've all been really enthused by what they heard, and the reports back were glowing for what I record.
If my recordings were very well received by such a vast quorum, then I feel that it would be a quality try for a DIY build, or even a kit purchase that I could hotrod. But this is just of the options that I've been exploring.


I have installed and designed and wired sound systems for over the last 20 + years Systems from $2000 to $500,000 Who cares including some very high end recording studio's. I was just saying I did not like the design of the speakers. Anyway build them I dont care. I think you are taking this way to personal. I am sorry I offended you. Speakers yeah I know about them and not just PA cabinets.
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Offline jmz93

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Re: More watts aren't necessarily better
« Reply #73 on: September 17, 2010, 11:44:50 AM »
Chris, just curious ... who are some of your favorite speaker builders?


Offline Church-Audio

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Re: More watts aren't necessarily better
« Reply #74 on: September 17, 2010, 12:58:57 PM »
Chris, just curious ... who are some of your favorite speaker builders?

I always liked Energy reference connoisseur speakers that series was out for a short time I loved the way they sounded.
The older Polk audio speakers with the gold tweeters.
I love the sound of Altec older coaxial speakers.
I have had a pair of Genlec 1033 that I really liked.
I love Meyer HD-1 speakers
My favorite speaker for the size and for its warmth was the Advent /3 with a good amp on them they sounded great for older music.
I like Klipsch speakers that is one of the companies that did manage to get horns to work properly. I like martin logan flat panel speakers they sound very different from anything else I have ever heard.
I like many different speakers for many different reasons. I like Ribbon tweeters for example over conventional tweeters because they tend to sound more open. I like the Adam sx4 they are very expensive but sound very good.

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