Topic: Differences in Cables?

[travelinbeat]

So what's the difference between all of the brands?  I know lots of people use products made by people on the board.. but what is the real difference between go-to bands like Hydra, Kind Kables, Neutrik, etc?  I can understand why it'd be ill-advised to use no-name / Rat Shack cables, but what's the difference in these brands (and other similar ones)?

[OFOTD]

1. Build Quality
2. Build Quality

and

3. Build Quality


There is a reason people pay more for certain cables than others.   It isn't just the wire used or the type of techflex or what have you but the quality of the cables made.   

I use HiHo cables because I KNOW that the last thing I have to worry about in the field are my cables.  No worries of a solder joint coming undone and no worries the hot glue in some stubbies is going to melt. 

You get what you pay for with the cable builders around here.

[travelinbeat]

do you have a link for HiHo? Google is confused....

[jlykos]

This is a dangerous question and has been covered ad nauseum in this forum.  Do a search if you want to see some of the opinions expressed on both sides of the debate.

There are other considerations, IMHO, the most significant being the quality of the wire itself, its geometry, the presence of a shield to protect against RF interference, and the connectors used.

If your question is about the cables sold by people on this site, I would think that build quality is the main difference, as most of the wires and connectors themselves are very similar, being silver-covered copper with Neutrik connectors.  If you look outside the site at some of the other options like Zaoella, Audio Magic, and Moon Audio (I think I am the only person who uses these on this site), you will see many more differences.

[H.A.V.E.]

The other points I see hear are great- some other quick pointers

shielding- Foil offers 100% interference rejection, but can break after a while if setting-up and breaking down, as in portable/stage applications- best suited for permanent studio installation.  Braided copper offers around 95% usually, but can withstand heavy physical usage all day long- great for portable applications, or if moving around a lot in the studio.

construction materials , such as die-electric material, can affect noise-ratio and performance specifications, such as capacitance, measured in pF/ft.

Another thing to consider is conductor configuration.  For an instrument/guitar cable, for instance, there really are only a single conductor plus a ground conductor (braided shield can double as ground) required, so a coaxial cable, like Canare GS6, is great, IMHO.  However, some prefer a twisted pair for an unbalanced cable- partly subjective opinion.  A microphone cable (and some instrument outputs) is a balanced cable, and requires two conductors plus the ground.  Canare L4E6S is a quad configuration for balanced lines- two pairs of conductors, each twisted and then soldered together at the connectors.  This configuration further increases rejection of Radio and Electro-magnetic interference, as it helps distribute exposure.  For this reason, Canare L4E6S makes an excellent balanced line, IMHO.

Neutrik makes very well-constructed, durable connectors, with great performance.  Gold contacts are especially resistant to oxidation with exposure to the elements, so is particular good for outdoor and stage/portable applications.  Silver contacts are great for studio use.

[Nick's Picks]

IMO, all of the board members "home brew" cables, mine included...are identical.  we use the same wire, the same connectors, the same parts.

[OFOTD]

IMO, all of the board members "home brew" cables, mine included...are identical.  we use the same wire, the same connectors, the same parts.

-T   

The above statement is complete and utter bullshit.   I think its been pretty obvious over the last 1-2 years of the differences of the "home brew" cables around here.  They may all have similar wire, they may all have the similar techflex but I can assure you they are NOT anywhere close to identical.   Again I go back to build quality.  That alone separates most of the "home brew" cable makers from one another.   

Most of the "home brew" cable makers use different cable stock from job to job.  Typically whatever is cheapest by the spool on ebay.  Others (HiHo Silvers as just one example) use the same wire from the same spool.  Gumbino bought enough wire to use for his customers current and future needs. Not just enough to get through the month.   That way you know your wires are consistently the same.  Others not so much.   Call it peace of mind.   

As far as the same connectors, yes they are the same brand and model typically but some builders tear them up, scratch them up and even in cases on this board re-used connectors from old cables for new orders.

So the only thing most have in common is that they are "home brew" but to call them identical is just false by a wide margin.

Remember you get what you pay for.  If you get your cables on the cheap then most likely they were built cheap.   I go back to my first post

I use HiHo cables because I KNOW that the last thing I have to worry about in the field are my cables.

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

 

Jeese dude.  Way to slam folks who make cables.  I myself have everyone's home brew cables (with the exception of Nick-You're next I pr omise Nick!)       I can say they have all performed awesome.  Not one issue with any of them.  Ever.  I disagree with your post.  If it was all about just the soldering Busman would be the best as he is a master.  JMO.

Edited to add.  I was incorrect.  I do not have any darktrains or goodcookers either.  But I'd bet they are equally as good.  Also wanted to point out Matt doesn't make cables anymore...does he?  At least he's rarely on this board. 

[Nick's Picks]

you think millspec cable comes from various manufacturers?
no.  it all comes from Alpha cable.  its all made from the same stock.

I get different wire all the time.  It all sounds the same, its built differently..some have double sheilds, some have thin crappy shields.  I get my wire from the same person all the time because I the product is consistent..., and also there is various options I can get (thickness, teflon tape vs teflon coating).

I'm not trying to de-rail anyone here.  but the wire itself is all made the same.
19 strands of silver coated oxy free copper from Alpha cable, made for the JAN (joint army/navy) market.

[OFOTD]

Jeese dude.  Way to slam folks who make cables.  I myself have everyone's home brew cables (with the exception of Nick-You're next I pr omise Nick!)       I can say they have all performed awesome.  Not one issue with any of them.  Ever.  I disagree with your post.  If it was all about just the soldering Busman would be the best as he is a master.  JMO.

Calling it like I see it.  

Its not just about soldering but its about cable strain relief, its about properly seating the techflex so that it doesn't come unraveled, its about making something more than a hack job, its a whole lot of things that very few actually care about when they build cables.  Those people that really care about making a quality product are few and far between.

At some point on this board people need to be honest about some things and calling the cable makers products identical is just bullshit.   Truth.

 

[Nick's Picks]

didn't mean to say the product was identical, just the materials.
and i'm honest about it.

for example: stubby's.  I hate them.  I dont make them as well as some of the others.  they are a PITA, and a point of failure, IMO.
I'll make them when people want them, and they get more refined as I go..., but give me a plain ol right angle neutrik *any day*.

[Chuck]

There are (arguably)  four measurable properties that all cables share: impedance, resistance, inductance and capacitance. Member H.A.V.E. mentioned Canare L4E6S "quad" cable. This cable is designed to provide better RF interference than typical 2 conductor plus sheild microphone cable. But, there is a trade-off. L4E6S has higher capacitance than typical microphone cable. That's the way it is with cables. Some are better at doing one thing than another. There are many other variables to consider with cables as well. What solder is used? What connectors and dressing are used? These things all add to the actual or perceived value of one cable builders product over another.

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

^ good post.     I will add I have not gotten any hack jobs from the folks I've bought from.  Apparently others have.  That's a shame.  My favorite out of all my cables?  Matt's shorties (4 pair) and my Segue's.  Todd was/is the man. 

[jeromejello]

i have had 5 sets of silver cables made from several folks on here.  3 were not so great - and had issues ranging from cosmetics to functionality.  all 3 of these were stubby sets and only one pair was from someone that was building cables as a business (the other 2 were hobbyists).

the other 2 were both great sets of cables.  roger (goodcooker) made a sweet pair of beldin 8410a with the adjustable r/a on the pre end.  these are super nice, but are my backups.  rob (darktrain) made me a set with stubbies that are easily some of the best work that i have seen.  i wouldn't hesitate about either of these cables in any field circumstance.

the comment above about hot glue has me extremely baffled.  i can tape in some serious heat situations (think all day outdoors in the Florida summer) and would never think that this would be a weak point.  my guess is that the heat it would take to melt the glue would have already fried my other gear and my brain.

while i don't own any gumbino's hiho silvers, i did contemplate them from the excellent pictures and reviews - but when it was time for me to get some - i found the price and build time too great for my needs.

finally i have a set of mini starquads that i think are from oade and they are awesome, and used to own a set of regular starquads from from oade.  both of these were purchased second hand and are/were affordable and durable.

** edit to add: this list was only mic cables & interconnects... ed (deadheaded) from kind kables made me a very nice power cable for my mp-2, and fozzy did a wonderful job shortening my at853's to a manageable length **

[Todd R]

^ good post.     I will add I have not gotten any hack jobs from the folks I've bought from.  Apparently others have.  That's a shame.  My favorite out of all my cables?  Matt's shorties (4 pair) and my Segue's.  Todd was/is the man. 

Thanks Mark -- though I'm feeling like I should have my wife call the mortician.

[jlykos]

Jeese dude.  Way to slam folks who make cables.  I myself have everyone's home brew cables (with the exception of Nick-You're next I pr omise Nick!)       I can say they have all performed awesome.  Not one issue with any of them.  Ever.  I disagree with your post.  If it was all about just the soldering Busman would be the best as he is a master.  JMO.

Those people that really care about making a quality product are few and far between.

At some point on this board people need to be honest about some things and calling the cable makers products identical is just bullshit.   Truth.

 

You know, this is pretty insane.  You are acting like the cable manufacturers on this website are a bunch of hacks that are too incompetent to build quality cables.  Look at all the plaudits that each designer has received from their customers.  Every manufacturer here has their share of support from others on this site that like the cables that X person has built for them.  Or do all of these satisfied customers not know what they are looking at either?

My impression of the guys who build cables for others on this site is that they are not a bunch of idiots like Daryan who are learning as they go and sell their "work in progress" to others, only to (literally, in the case of some of Daryan's cables) blow up in their faces.  While they may not be as technically skilled as Chris Johnson, Doug Oade, or Drew Baird to design and build their own equipment, they are more than qualified to build some microphone cables.  They care about their customers and all want to further the ultimate goal of having higher and higher quality recordings in the community.  They contribute to this end by building high-quality cables for tapers.

And if you don't want to patronize the cable makers on this board, fine, go elsewhere.  I chose to go with Moon Audio because of their design and the high quality of components used.  Although, having just purchased some very nice cables from Nick, I figure that if given the the exact same type of cable and components that Drew from Moon Audio uses, Nick could assemble it just as well.

BTW, does Matt even build cables anymore?  I contacted him a while ago about building me a cable and he responded by saying that he was taking a break for a while.  I went with Nick instead and am very happy with the results.

[George]

I've seen this all before on head-fi.  People who spend 100's of dollars on cables need to make themselves feel good knowing they overpaid for a piece of wire.

My $10 mini interconnect has worked flawlessly for years.  YMMV   

[Todd R]

I've seen this all before on head-fi.  People who spend 100's of dollars on cables need to make themselves feel good knowing they overpaid for a piece of wire.

My $10 mini interconnect has worked flawlessly for years.  YMMV   

And alternatively, people who don't spend high dollars on cables and use el-cheapos need to make themselves feel good for their decision not to invest money.

Look, I'm more that willing to concede that people who spend high dollars on cables will have an inherent bias that leans towards their own decision.  But that cuts both ways -- people who choose not to spend big money on cables also have a bias that leans towards the decisions they made.  It's important to recognize the sources of bias, but it isn't at all safe to assume that only the ones buying the boutique cables have a bias.

Long before I started building cables for others (which I no longer do), I built cables up from a variety of cable stocks, did listening tests, and chose the ones I liked best.  I built and owned them all, so I'm not sure why I would've been biased towards one or the other. 

People should definitely listen and make their own choices, but I don't think there are any hard and fast rules.

[Nick's Picks]

I for one, am more than happy to teach anyone to make their own, and I encourage it.
its not rocket surgery.

Just source the parts and assemble.

[OFOTD]

You know, this is pretty insane.  You are acting like the cable manufacturers on this website are a bunch of hacks that are too incompetent to build quality cables.  Look at all the plaudits that each designer has received from their customers.  Every manufacturer here has their share of support from others on this site that like the cables that X person has built for them.  Or do all of these satisfied customers not know what they are looking at either?

From what I have seen with my own eyes and from what other friends and tapers have shared with me I'd say at least half of the cable makers here are hacks without doubt.  Look at all the plaudits?  Shit man if someone came out and said xxxxx cable maker sucks then there would be a whole shit storm of people denouncing the poster for slamming xxxxxx cable maker.   We can slam guysonic for being overpriced or we can slam Len for whatever but god forbid we take one of our own to task.    This site has definitely moved in that direction of not criticizing fellow members or else feel the wrath of others.

 

Or do all of these satisfied customers not know what they are looking at either?

I'd say some of the 'satisfied' customers are satisfied because they didn't pay very much and are happy they got a deal.  When these people though are having to send their cables back to be fixed and you start including shipping, down time then it suddenly is not a deal.


I want to make it clear that there are many really good cable makers here. Matt, Todd R, Ed and Brian come to mind instantly.   So i'm not trying to paint some broad stroke about everyone other than Matt.   

Again I go back to build quality.   There is a difference and more often than not it is very obvious.


^^^^  Good post Todd  re: bias

[rastasean]

if you're only using two cables, maybe four, why not spend a little more and get quality cables that way you know they will last. now if you're a musician using 10 SM57s or something, you don't want to go broke on $80 cables.
 I think the problem is that we have different definitions of quality and that's perfectly fine because it will offer more options for people to buy cables.

[travelinbeat]

There's certainly some great discussion going on here, but unfortunately it's only confusing me more and adding more questions...

Basically I want to know what cables to buy.  Something about 15' long to go from my Busman BSC1's to a PS2.  Too easy a questions?  How about a short (1-3 foot) cable that takes the XLR signal output of the PS2 and puts it into a 3.5mm male to plug into my R-09HR?

Please feel free to PM responses; I know lots of people worry about hurting people's feelings.

[deadheaded]

There's certainly some great discussion going on here, but unfortunately it's only confusing me more and adding more questions...

Basically I want to know what cables to buy.  Something about 15' long to go from my Busman BSC1's to a PS2.  Too easy a questions?  How about a short (1-3 foot) cable that takes the XLR signal output of the PS2 and puts it into a 3.5mm male to plug into my R-09HR?

Please feel free to PM responses; I know lots of people worry about hurting people's feelings.

hey this is ed from kind kables.
i would be more than happy to make the that you need.
if you have any questions get in touch.
thanks
ed

[tgakidis]

This guy makes the best home brew cables on TS.

[travelinbeat]

PM sent to Ed--

Any other inputs?  Please just feel free to PM and tell me what cables you use and why you made the choice you did.  Just that little bit of information would be REALLY helpful at this point!!!

[TNJazz]

I use mostly Mogami and sometimes Gotham cable.

Sorry, I don't buy into the whole silver cable thing, bu that argument's been covered enough in this forum already.   

I figure if it's good enough for thousands of professional engineers, FOH, studio guys and musicians - it must be at least halfway decent.

[newplanet7]

I've seen Darktrains work a few times and it's spot on.
Plus his sets are realistic in $$ terms.
A lot of prices I've seen people buy cables for are laughable.

FWIW
I work at a custom cable facility myself and made my own.

[bhadella]

I've seen Darktrains work a few times and it's spot on.
Plus his sets are realistic in $$ terms.
A lot of prices I've seen people buy cables for are laughable.

FWIW
I work at a custom cable facility myself and made my own.

2nd'd on Darktrain.  Great stuff and very reasonable prices. 

[goodcooker]

If you support your customers with good communication, after the sale service and guarantee of your work I think you are not considered a hack. I had two customers return cables for a fix. Nobody's perfect.

I think the main advantage of having taper based cable makers for the market is the familiarity they have with the gear. A taper can contact someone with a specific mic> esoteric pre > funky a/d > recorder in gear bagX requirement and we can work with them. About half of my mic cable/interconnect or power cable sales have been for VERY customized setups.

newplanet7 I've seen several posts on TS alluding to everyones inflated prices except for Darktrain's.
If you work at a cable facility and make your own of course you think the prices are high. While you are certainly entitled to your opinion.....ease up on the rest of us alright?

[newplanet7]

newplanet7 I've seen several posts on TS alluding to everyones inflated prices except for Darktrain's.
If you work at a cable facility and make your own of course you think the prices are high. While you are certainly entitled to your opinion.....ease up on the rest of us alright?

Show me where I made any specific mention of anyone else?
I have never and ever will call out anyone for their prices.
I wasn't referring to anyone at all.
I certainly wasn't speaking of you cooker.
What I said was

I've seen Darktrains work a few times and it's spot on.
Plus his sets are realistic in $$ terms.
A lot of prices I've seen people buy cables for are laughable.

This is truth. People paying hundreds of dollars for cables is laughable.
Sorry to be honest here but it's definitely price gauging at that point.
However it's also a free market so, if people want to pay a specific amount
for an item that's fine by me. I am just voicing my opinion in the cable thread.
I am not denouncing any ones work or business since I haven't a clue of what
you or nick or whomever sells them for.

I was referring to public yardsales where I have seen interconnects and cables
go for, to me, unreasonable amounts.

[Nick's Picks]

agreed.
I use the nickle ones.  no coating, nothing to "rub off".  all the pro industry swears by it vs. the gold pins.

[Todd R]

For truly harsh environments, I'd be looking at something like the Neutrik HD series--but I'd also think about swapping for silver contacts.

I use (and used) the silver contacts.  The both the gold and the silver use a gold/silver plating (over nickel I think), but the silver plating is 10x thicker than the gold plating.  With a lot of insertions like we have, I found the gold plating to get worn off pretty quick, leaving just the nickel.

As to the cost of the custom cables, everyone needs to decide for themselves whether the cables are worth it.  And on the flip side, the cable makers need to decide for themselves what price they want to charge.  To me, it seems really hard to compare to some large cable-making facility.  As a small custom cable maker, you probably won't have all the equipment for making cables quicker.  High-end soldering stations, the appropriate cable strippers, crimpers, whatever.  So either you spend the money and get all this stuff, or you make the cables much more slowly without these conveniences.  You also may not be able to either stock large amounts of raw cable and parts or buy in bulk.  Compared to how many cables you actually sell, you may spend much more time per cable on product/mfg development, inventory and ordering, marketing and customer interaction (esp since the cables are custom), etc.  All of this means more cost into the cables for both parts and time for construction.  On top of that, custom cable makers may have other jobs and obligations. 

Like I said, I'm not doing cables now, but I'm a professional with several college degrees and expect to (and do) make a certain rate for my labor.  This rate is quite a bit more than an hourly laborer making minimum wage, let alone what an uneducated solderer might make in a Mexican border town.

Bottom line, I really don't think anyone should act like the cable makers on this board are either snake oil salesmen or ripoff artists.  My guess is they are doing it since they themselves like to have cables like this and want to make it possible for others to use this type of custom cable as well, at what they think is a reasonable pay back for their efforts.  No problem at all if you don't want to buy them, but its not like these folks are some Phish ticket scalpling scumbags.

0.02

[newplanet7]

  To me, it seems really hard to compare to some large cable-making facility.  As a small custom cable maker, you probably won't have all the equipment for making cables quicker.  High-end soldering stations, the appropriate cable strippers, crimpers, whatever.  So either you spend the money and get all this stuff, or you make the cables much more slowly without these conveniences.  You also may not be able to either stock large amounts of raw cable and parts or buy in bulk.  Compared to how many cables you actually sell, you may spend much more time per cable on product/mfg development, inventory and ordering, marketing and customer interaction (esp since the cables are custom), etc.  All of this means more cost into the cables for both parts and time for construction.  On top of that, custom cable makers may have other jobs and obligations. 

I agree with this.
Especially on stock and whatnot.

However no one even insinuated this:

Bottom line, I really don't think anyone should act like the cable makers on this board are either snake oil salesmen or ripoff artists.  My guess is they are doing it since they themselves like to have cables like this and want to make it possible for others to use this type of custom cable as well, at what they think is a reasonable pay back for their efforts.  No problem at all if you don't want to buy them, but its not like these folks are some Phish ticket scalpling scumbags.
0.02

No has even mentioned cable makers on this board.

[dmonkey]

This guy makes the best home brew cables on TS.

Awesome! Where can I get some Monkey Cables? They'd really fit in with my whole monkey theme.