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Author Topic: aeta 6 track recorder  (Read 33759 times)

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Offline John Willett

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Re: aeta 6 track recorder
« Reply #105 on: June 19, 2016, 08:37:33 AM »
^nice!!
 8)


.......are the pre amps similar or same to PSP-2 or PSP-3 or totally different??

The pre-amps are about the same quality as the Sonosax / Nagra VI (ie: top of the tree).

AETA put a lot of effort into the audio quality, from their old mixer, Codecs the MIXY and the 4MinX.   And the 4MinX is several thousand cheaper than the Nagra VI and, at least, equal in quality.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 08:44:08 AM by John Willett »

Offline John Willett

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Re: aeta 6 track recorder
« Reply #106 on: June 19, 2016, 08:39:02 AM »
Drool....



Is that a small man? Or a Large Recorder?

 >:D

Size wise - it's larger than the 788T, but a lot smaller than the Nagra VI - and runs cool.

Offline StuStu

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Re: aeta 6 track recorder
« Reply #107 on: June 19, 2016, 09:36:44 PM »
Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting. We like to think there are huge subjective differences, but unfortunately the science rarely agrees and that can be hard for our egos to deal with. Jon said this really well once.


When you get into the world of studio preamps, people have their preferences and biases and experiences, but almost none can express those in technical terms, and when their subjective evaluations get challenged with actual technical measurements, suddenly they get very very defensive . . .

Preamps have a simple, defined purpose; Amplify a low-level signal equally across all frequencies while introducing as little noise as possible. There might be some secondary functions like bass roll-off, but otherwise it should be ruler flat 20 Hz to 20 kHz. Unfortunately, a mountain of bad science and marketing bullshit in the audio world has obscured this very simple purpose and led people to believe that a preamp should be 'bright' or 'dark' or... whatever.

If you really think you understand the sonic characteristics of these preamps, then I would challenge you to discuss them in technical terms rather than anecdotes. A frequency response chart or Bode plot is not hard to generate, even the most humble of computer sound cards can take accurate measurements. If you really think these two preamps share a sonic characteristic, then surely we would see evidence of that in a frequency response chart, right? How about looking at THD and harmonics? Shouldn't those also match? I've taken measurements on all these pres and would encourage anyone to do the same. It's not hard; everyone should know how to do it.

Heck, even some sound comps would be better than anecdotes. As maybe the only person on this forum with a 4Minx, why haven't you done this?


What's so hard to believe about AETA basing the pres from their OWN wonderful sounding PSP-3? Why change a great pre?

Because that's not how engineering works. You don't start with a sound and work backwards. You don't make 20 different circuits and perform critical listening tests until you find the circuit that "has that classic Aeta sound." Engineers work with a set of technical requirements (i.e. ruler flat frequency response, low power consumption, specific gain ranges), choose parts based on component level specifications, pricing & availability, reliability, etc... and then validate everything with technical measurements, not their ears.

And as for the second-hand knowledge you are throwing around regarding Aeta's opinion, do you really believe that an engineer at Aeta would say "the 4minx was designed to sound like the PSP-3" when they have released so many products since? Why wouldn't he have said it was based off the Mixy or the Scoop or any other product developed by Aeta that is literally lightyears ahead of the PSP-3? The answer is pretty simple. A taper asked him "does it sound more like X or Y" and he responded with the option that made the most sense. This kind of anecdotal information might be interesting, but is easily misused and often does more harm than good.


Are you suggesting transformerless pres all sound alike? And by all means, let us all know the dozen pres that sound like the PSP-3. I'd love to try them out.

If we're talking about modern, instrumentation amplifier based pres (INA217/SSM2017/THAT151x or the dozens of other, newer chips out there), then yes. It's an incredibly common circuit topology and not the secret sauce or voodoo magic you'd like it to be.

Aeta did a great job engineering the PSP-3, but I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of R&D was focused on enclosure design, pcb layout work, implementing features like M/S decoding, left/right balance, power supply design, etc. Heck, more than half the circuity in the PSP-3 is dedicated to these auxiliary features alone. The amplification circuit is probably the simplest thing in there and even then, it's fairly dated. For example, there are definitely more exotic ways tackle dc offest across the entire gain range than a 1000uF capacitor in series with Rg and with some of the newer chips, you don't even have to solve for it.

The same goes for the 4Minx, but now you've got all sorts of digital stuff in the mix, firmware coding, etc. That stuff is what makes a solid, modern product, not the 'sound.'

I can think of a few pres with wildly difference sonic signatures, but that isn't necessarily a good thing (I'm looking at you m248... worst fucking preamp ever. keep getting fleeced, sheep).

It would behoove all of use to focus on features, pricing, and customer service / support rather than "sound."


A. No, I'm not the only TS member who owns a 4MinX. Perhaps you can scold them as well.
B. I don't get your elitist attitude, nor do I care. People, myself included, don't visit TS to be told how things should be done the hi and low way.
C. I don't care what you think. I don't know you. Taping is a hobby to me; if I were as uptight about it as you seem to be, I'd quit taping.
D. I've posted plenty of shows that were recorded with the AETA if people want to get an idea of its sound. I don't personally recall ever seeing a show that you recorded posted.
MK5, MK8, MK41, KM184D, CK77, B3 ---CMD 2U XT, KC5, KCY, AKI---KCY Tinybox, Ugly BB---AETA 4MinX, PMD661 MKII, R-26, M-10, MR-1

Offline kingkita

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Re: aeta 6 track recorder
« Reply #108 on: June 19, 2016, 10:17:00 PM »
I personally own quite a few of these pre amps in this thread I can vouch the 248 is a solid pre amp and the psp2 and psp3 are different unless my ears are fucked up.And if you think the 248 is junk listen to the Oade Brothers pulls of dead from back in the day some stellar stuff there.Maybe we can do some comparisons at Red Rocks with the whole tapersection that's going to be there.There will be every kind of mic and pre amp there for the comparison showdown.

Offline hi and lo

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Re: aeta 6 track recorder
« Reply #109 on: June 19, 2016, 10:45:17 PM »
We ran an m248 a few years ago. Every recording it made had almost no frequency response below 100 Hz. They were the thinnest, hollowist recordings we've ever heard; clearly something was not right. Doug looks at it, insists everything was OK, but could not provide any frequency response charts or demonstrable technical data to support his claim. It was clearly fucked and he was not technically competent enough to address it properly.

YMMV, but in my opinion the Oade's are the biggest snake-oil salesmen this community has ever seen.

In contrast, when Vark repairs my PSP2, I was provided a full suite of frequency response charts for every setting using an Audio Precision analyzer. Professionals vs. amateurs.


« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 10:48:51 PM by hi and lo »

Offline kingkita

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Re: aeta 6 track recorder
« Reply #110 on: June 19, 2016, 10:54:35 PM »
We ran an m248 a few years ago. Every recording it made had almost no frequency response below 100 Hz. They were the thinnest, hollowist recordings we've ever heard; clearly something was not right. Doug looks at it, insists everything was OK, but could not provide any frequency response charts or demonstrable technical data to support his claim. It was clearly fucked and he was not technically competent enough to address it properly.

YMMV, but in my opinion the Oade's are the biggest snake-oil salesmen this community has ever seen.

In contrast, when Vark repairs my PSP2, I was provided a full suite of frequency response charts for every setting using an Audio Precision analyzer. Professionals vs. amateurs.

I can see your going to have a great time at Red Rocks with all of us southern guys

Offline hi and lo

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Re: aeta 6 track recorder
« Reply #111 on: June 19, 2016, 11:42:46 PM »

I can see your going to have a great time at Red Rocks with all of us southern guys

Hehe, touché. I'm actually pretty nice and I'm sure we'll get along.

And I'm not trying to offend or scold anyone here, but I'm definitely not going to hide my feelings on this forum, especially after being asked. We're talking about gear here after all, it's not personal.

My anecdote about the Oade's is certainly the result of a very poor, completely unacceptable customer service experience. It was intended as sarcasm and was certainly out-of-context, but I'm glad you picked up on it.... This issue was so frustrating because, as you mention, we've all heard great M248 recordings, but very clearly there was something defective with the unit we had. It sounded absolutely nothing the M248 recordings we had heard, the results were barely usable. For the man himself to insist that everything is fine, but not be able to back it up with technical data, was very concerning. The guy literally never hooked it up to a scope or frequency analyzer, just listened to it and said it sounded fine.

Having been around since the early days of the Oade forum, I can certainly say that they have been responsible for a lot of recordings and done great things for the community. But, I'm also someone who builds and tests their own audio equipment and has done tear downs and analysis on damn near every piece of equipment used. Modifying gear is great, but not when you treat is like a secret sauce and refuse to ever disclose even the smallest of technical details or provide the necessary technical measurements to back up their scientific marketing claims and high price tags. To me, that's selling snake-oil.

I just can't tell you how bad a customer experience it was... and the resulting price tag. It wasn't cheap in the yard sale, cost money to ship to and from Doug, bench time / labor that Doug charged, and finally the resulting money lost because it had to be sold "as-is" in the yard sale with full disclosure that it was fucked, regardless of what Doug was saying.

That's why I like to support Jon at Naiant and quote him frequently. He's incredibly transparent about his designs and the science behind his products. In the many years he's been supporting the community, he's arguably just as big of an impact, both from the gear he provides and the knowledge he shares. As a rule, he never makes anecdotal claims that can't be backed with technical data and is spot on with his criticism of those that do.

That philosophy is why I'm even bothering to weigh in on this thread. The 4minx is a $5000 piece of equipment that does far more than anyone on this forum will ever need. If you're using it exclusively for concert taping, you're using maybe 5% of its overall features which is fine if you have the money to spend on a cool tool, but not something we should encourage by idolizing two pieces of gear that are dinosaurs in comparison. I don't always agree with what John has to say, but in this case he's spot on. Compare it to the Sonosax or Nagra because that's the appropriate comparison.


« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 01:46:33 AM by hi and lo »

Offline dactylus

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Re: Aeta 8 Track Recorder
« Reply #112 on: June 22, 2016, 07:54:36 AM »

That philosophy is why I'm even bothering to weigh in on this thread. The 4minx is a $5000 piece of equipment that does far more than anyone on this forum will ever need. If you're using it exclusively for concert taping, you're using maybe 5% of its overall features which is fine if you have the money to spend on a cool tool, but not something we should encourage by idolizing two pieces of gear that are dinosaurs in comparison. I don't always agree with what John has to say, but in this case he's spot on. Compare it to the Sonosax or Nagra because that's the appropriate comparison.

You have the option to select a 4MinX without the Time Code and Surround Sound (Soundfield) options.  If you can live without those two features, which I can, you can probably purchase a 4MinX for less than the cost of a new SD744T. 

Contact Justin Marinoff at Sound-Pro for pricing on this equipment.   

Justin Marinoff <justin@pro-sound.com>

« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 08:02:11 AM by dactylus »
hot licks > microphones > recorder



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Offline John Willett

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Re: Aeta 8 Track Recorder
« Reply #113 on: June 23, 2016, 05:10:32 AM »
You have the option to select a 4MinX without the Time Code and Surround Sound (Soundfield) options.  If you can live without those two features, which I can, you can probably purchase a 4MinX for less than the cost of a new SD744T. 

The 4MinX is extremely flexible and there are many options.

You can purchase it as a:-
0 track
2 track
4 track or
8 track recorder

Timecode is an option which you do not have if you don't want it

Soundfield (both A-format and B-format are in the option) is another option.

If you buy it, for instance, as a 2-track recorder, it is easily updatable to a 4-track or 8-track at a later date as a firmware upgrade - same with the Soundfield option which can be added later - only with the timecode option would the recorder have to go back as this is a hardware option.

In the UK prices range from £2,596.00 for a 0-track with no options to £4,028.00 for an 8-track with both timecode and Soundfield options (prices without VAT).

AETA have done various firmware updates over time and any owner can easily update their machine if it does not have the latest update - and there is another update inthe pipeline.

A recent updaye added an adjustable delay to every input and on the 4MinX you *can* adjust the level of all inputs (some recorders donot allow you to adjust a digitalinput, for example).  The update history is HERE.

Offline hi and lo

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Re: aeta 6 track recorder
« Reply #114 on: June 27, 2016, 03:13:05 AM »
Firmware based pricing is an absolute joke. Only a corporate shill would defend that bullshit.

Offline John Willett

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Re: aeta 6 track recorder
« Reply #115 on: June 27, 2016, 07:24:26 AM »
Firmware based pricing is an absolute joke. Only a corporate shill would defend that bullshit.

Why?

Firmware costs money to develop and it's reasonable not to have to pay for facilities you don't need.

The Soundfield software cost quite a bit to develop - why should someone who does not want it have to pay for it?

I can, sort of, see your point on the track count - but it does enable someone who want's a more basic machine to buy it cheaper.

Offline hi and lo

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Re: aeta 6 track recorder
« Reply #116 on: June 30, 2016, 03:05:02 AM »
Firmware based pricing is an absolute joke. Only a corporate shill would defend that bullshit.

Why?

Firmware costs money to develop and it's reasonable not to have to pay for facilities you don't need.

The Soundfield software cost quite a bit to develop - why should someone who does not want it have to pay for it?

I can, sort of, see your point on the track count - but it does enable someone who want's a more basic machine to buy it cheaper.

First, let's not confuse software development costs with licensing costs. Soundfield ambisonic monitoring software has a licensing cost; I believe it's covered by US Patent 9,100,768 and who knows what else across the pond. Firmware development certainly isn't free, but with this pricing model licensing costs are almost always the dominating factor.

Second, anytime you sell a piece of hardware that is somehow disabled or locked to the consumer, it's completely and utterly offensive. It can also be dangerous. Phone manufacturers are the worst, quickly followed by car manufacturers, and consumers have been forced to fight tooth and nail for the right to own, repair, and fully use the hardware they have rightfully purchased.

Practices like this are, simply put, not consumer friendly. Almost as bad as extorting hundreds of dollars for a few extra Ah in a battery instead of a sponge.

If I'm wrong, feel free to educate the forum here, but also do us a favor and provide full disclosure for any corporate relationships or sponsorships you have. There never seems to be any anything these companies (specifically Aeta, Nagra, Sonosax) can do wrong.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 03:21:32 AM by hi and lo »

Offline John Willett

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Re: AETA 4MinX 8 track recorder
« Reply #117 on: June 30, 2016, 08:40:48 AM »
Second, anytime you sell a piece of hardware that is somehow disabled or locked to the consumer, it's completely and utterly offensive. It can also be dangerous. Phone manufacturers are the worst, quickly followed by car manufacturers, and consumers have been forced to fight tooth and nail for the right to own, repair, and fully use the hardware they have rightfully purchased.

Why do you think this is so offensive?

If all costs are clear an up-front and it enables you to buy the product cheaper if you don't need all the facilities.

As long as a manufacturer is clear and up-front about it and clearly shows any upgrade costs - I don't see a problem.

The alternative is a manufacturer making lots of different versions which would all have to sell at higher prices and if you wanted a different version you would have to sell the one you have and buy another. 

Making one hardware version with firmware enabling options is the cheaper option all round.

But, as I said, a manufacturere should be clear about all the costs and upgrade costs at the start so anyone purchasing can make the decision best for them.

Or do you really want only the maxxed out version available at the highest price?

Offline voltronic

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Re: aeta 6 track recorder
« Reply #118 on: June 30, 2016, 09:23:59 AM »
John,

Going by the price list on your website, the pricing between the different levels is much smaller than what I anticipated.  From the cheapest (mixer only) to the 8-track option, the difference is 621 GBP or about $835 US.  I'm not much a fan of the firmware-based pricing scheme either, but if owners can buy the less expensive version initially and then upgrade at relatively reasonable cost, then it's not that bad.  And it's not much different from what software companies do with different "levels".  I use iZotope RX4, which is the same things as the Advanced version but with certain features deactivated.

I also appreciate that Aeta chose to use reasonably-priced DV batteries for this unit.

Is your price list reflecting retail prices?  I can't find it for sale many places, and the difference between your prices and others is significant:

http://www.pinknoise-systems.co.uk/aeta-4-minx-mixer-and-multitrack-recorder.html - the only other seller I could find in the UK
http://sonoproaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/search&filter_name=4minx - Quebec
http://www.pro-sound.com/p/aeta-systems-4-min-x-multi-track-mixer-recorder.html - $6200 US for 6-track version?!?!
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 09:25:48 AM by voltronic »
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Offline Hypnocracy

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Re: Aeta 8 Track Recorder
« Reply #119 on: June 30, 2016, 11:07:57 AM »
For voltronic...

You have the option to select a 4MinX without the Time Code and Surround Sound (Soundfield) options.  If you can live without those two features, which I can, you can probably purchase a 4MinX for less than the cost of a new SD744T. 

Contact Justin Marinoff at Sound-Pro for pricing on this equipment.   

Justin Marinoff <justin@pro-sound.com>

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