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Author Topic: Adding the PSP2 back in my rig  (Read 9168 times)

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Offline hi and lo

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Re: Adding the PSP2 back in my rig
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2011, 11:50:15 AM »
All this recent psp2 talk has me wanting to run mine, at a show that is coming up Soon.  But I'm in a somewhat similar situation with overload concerns - running into an r09.  And this is an unfamiliar venue, where I don't know what the levels will be, and checking is not advised.

This combo has gotten me into trouble with levels in the past.   It's a pretty awful feeling once the show has started, then realizing you're in a world of hurt on levels!  And you left other pre-amps, that would not have caused a problem, at home.

It's true - the best sounding pre-amp is the one that does not overload your recorder :P

The m10 can take a hotter signal... It would be really useful if some m10 owners could explore what happens to the m10 recording quality when the "gain" is turned down to the lowest settings, and it is fed a very hot signal.

The psp2 should be able to be run with quiet sources without attenuators..   Though I do wonder how much the sound character suffers if you don't drive the input transformers with sufficient gusto (is "gusto" from french? I think so).

I've always thought the min gain of the pre was closer to 25 db, not 20.   But I never measured it.  The mic input sensitivity function, and exactly what it does, has always been a bit of a mystery.

I got my psp2 right around the time I sold my 722.  And I immediately missed the pro-level input capability of the 7xx . Losing it impacted my ability and desire to run the psp2, especially after initial problems with the hot output.

I've always been averse to attenuators, though I do have a -20 (I think I'd prefer a -5, and a -10).  I'm averse to that -20 because it isn't impedance matched to this gear, and I always felt non-attenuated preamps would sound better.  Nevermind that many recorders have internal attenuators that we don't specifically know about.

The minijack output on the psp2 is hot.. I don't think there is any way it could be -10.  But I'll try and check if I get it cabled right.

I've used PSP-2 M10 many times in loud situations. Have no fear as the M10 can take whatever signal you feed it. Even if you have to run at 2-3, it won't overload. In terms of how hot a singal the M10 can take, I don't think there is any difference between it and the 722 or any other professional recorder. It's without question the best handheld recorder available that's not a Sonosax MiniR82 or similar.

I agree with you that the minijack output on the psp2 is hot. I'm all but certain it shares the same signal path as the XLR outs; it's not going to be -10dB.

Running with attenuators is just a waste. They should only be used on a hot soundboard feed and only when there is no alternative.

TaperBryan - I still don't understand why you are using the V3 if you're not using it strictly for the A/D? Do you think it's adding anything? The PSP-2 sounds better in terms of it's preamp stage, imo. The V3 is known to have some built-in roll-off.

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Re: Adding the PSP2 back in my rig
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2011, 11:50:52 AM »
I do not understand at all why you want to even bother with the V3.  It's doing nothing in this scenario except adding a second gain stage you have to run through.

Exactly!

Offline fobstl

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Re: Adding the PSP2 back in my rig
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2011, 12:00:08 PM »
I do not understand at all why you want to even bother with the V3.  It's doing nothing in this scenario except adding a second gain stage you have to run through.
I was thinking the same thing. If you are not using the V3 as an A > D it would probably be best to use either the EAA or the V3 as the pre but not both.

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Re: Adding the PSP2 back in my rig
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2011, 12:04:00 PM »
Running with attenuators is just a waste. They should only be used on a hot soundboard feed and only when there is no alternative.

The M10 can handle a signal upwards of +20dbu, the DR-07 which he's talking about using maxes out at around +8.

If he baught an M10, this would all be moot, but so far I havn't seen that mentioned as an option, just something the rest of us have batted around.

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Offline tedyun

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Re: Adding the PSP2 back in my rig
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2011, 12:09:03 PM »
The mini-jack is hot. I also agree that it is probably at the same level as the XLR outs. When I ran this for the Mastersounds, I had the XLR outs going into the Mytek, and that went into the PMD661. The levels were peaking between -12 and -6. Using the minijack, I ran this through an SVU-2, then to my MR-1, and the levels were over 0. Luckily, the MR-1 can attenuate the signal very far.

I can see the logic of going to the V3 as a second stage. The PSP-2 can increase the gain by steps of +6 dB. In the PSP-2 manual, they essentially recommend using a second stage preamp when they state that fine level adjustment should be done on the recorder. What TaperBryan is proposing is to do that fine level adjustment on the V3 instead.

For example at the Mastersounds recording, I really wanted to push that +6 dB to get the gain in the -6 to 0 range, but if it went slightly over, I wouldn't have a way to adjust it down. I ended up staying where I was and fixing the gain in post. I ended up adding about +4 dB in post, so I believe if I had engaged the +6 dB switch, I would have been over.

The V3 is supposed to be ultra transparent. I really like the sound, but I know others don't care for it (TNJazz, I'm looking at you...) I'm planning on trying this config on Mon, and hopefully I'll have a comp. if all goes well.


All this recent psp2 talk has me wanting to run mine, at a show that is coming up Soon.  But I'm in a somewhat similar situation with overload concerns - running into an r09.  And this is an unfamiliar venue, where I don't know what the levels will be, and checking is not advised.

This combo has gotten me into trouble with levels in the past.   It's a pretty awful feeling once the show has started, then realizing you're in a world of hurt on levels!  And you left other pre-amps, that would not have caused a problem, at home.

It's true - the best sounding pre-amp is the one that does not overload your recorder :P

The m10 can take a hotter signal... It would be really useful if some m10 owners could explore what happens to the m10 recording quality when the "gain" is turned down to the lowest settings, and it is fed a very hot signal.

The psp2 should be able to be run with quiet sources without attenuators..   Though I do wonder how much the sound character suffers if you don't drive the input transformers with sufficient gusto (is "gusto" from french? I think so).

I've always thought the min gain of the pre was closer to 25 db, not 20.   But I never measured it.  The mic input sensitivity function, and exactly what it does, has always been a bit of a mystery.

I got my psp2 right around the time I sold my 722.  And I immediately missed the pro-level input capability of the 7xx . Losing it impacted my ability and desire to run the psp2, especially after initial problems with the hot output.

I've always been averse to attenuators, though I do have a -20 (I think I'd prefer a -5, and a -10).  I'm averse to that -20 because it isn't impedance matched to this gear, and I always felt non-attenuated preamps would sound better.  Nevermind that many recorders have internal attenuators that we don't specifically know about.

The minijack output on the psp2 is hot.. I don't think there is any way it could be -10.  But I'll try and check if I get it cabled right.

I've used PSP-2 M10 many times in loud situations. Have no fear as the M10 can take whatever signal you feed it. Even if you have to run at 2-3, it won't overload. In terms of how hot a singal the M10 can take, I don't think there is any difference between it and the 722 or any other professional recorder. It's without question the best handheld recorder available that's not a Sonosax MiniR82 or similar.

I agree with you that the minijack output on the psp2 is hot. I'm all but certain it shares the same signal path as the XLR outs; it's not going to be -10dB.

Running with attenuators is just a waste. They should only be used on a hot soundboard feed and only when there is no alternative.

TaperBryan - I still don't understand why you are using the V3 if you're not using it strictly for the A/D? Do you think it's adding anything? The PSP-2 sounds better in terms of it's preamp stage, imo. The V3 is known to have some built-in roll-off.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 12:11:52 PM by tedyun »
Mics: B&K 4011, Schoeps MK5 (Nbobs, Naiant PFA), Busman BSC-1 (K11/K21/K31/K41 caps), Church CA-14 (o, c), Church CAFS, Core Sound Binaurals
Pre: EAA PSP-2,  Lunatec V3, Nbox-Platinum, Church CA-9200
ADC: Mytek 192 ADC, Oade Mod SBM-1
Rec: Oade Supermod PMD-661, Tascam DR60D, M-Audio MicroTrack II, Korg MR-1 (32GB SSD mod); Sony PCM-M10, Edirol R09HR; iRiver HP-120
Photo: Canon 5D3, Canon EF-S 17-55mm f2.8, Canon EF 35mm f1.4L Canon EF 24-70 f2.8L MkI, Canon EF 70-200mm f2.8L IS MkI, Canon EF 50 mm f1.4, Canon EF 50 f1.2L, Canon EF 300 f/4L IS, Canon EF 100-400 f4-5.6L IS MkI
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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Adding the PSP2 back in my rig
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2011, 12:14:57 PM »
Thanks for posting the manual, fobstl!

As far as home level testing goes... I find that home stereos aren't nearly loud enough.  I'd be very concerned that your TV test may leave you in for a surprise.  I seriously doubt 2' from the tv could be anywhere near rock concert "loud".  What you described is about 35 db of gain, and that's going into a recorder that probably has pretty sensitive inputs (just guessing).

The way I figure it, a loud rock show reaching my mics is similar to what I can reasonably yell up really close.  So one test is whether a loud "dah" yelled into my mics from 3" away causes clipping..  It's important not to spit or wind the mics ;)

The v3 gets pretty hot.  Running it in an enclosed bag can really heat it up.  Also, I think it generates a lot more heat when supplied with 9 or 12 volts vs. 6 volts.  Though I've never run it with 6v, so I can't say for sure.  If the batteries are also in that bag, it isn't good for them.    Especially lithiums.  Most of the v3 heat comes off the ends - they are the heat sinks.

I'm with the others - I don't think I'd run the v3 behind the psp2 this time out.  However, you might want to bring it in case you find you need a lower gain option.

I found it interesting that the manual for the psp2 specifically cautions against using dirty power supplies. A lot of external batteries have power regulators in them, and some of those are noisy.  I sometimes notice that noise when making nature recordings at high gain when using wally dvd lithium packs - especially with unbalanced mics like the 4061's.  Beware.

Page, the psp2 only has input transformers.  And they were custom designed for the psp2.

Reading the manual, the sensitivity switch causes more gain to be added.  It isn't clear whether that gain is from the same opamp source as the +6 and +12..  The needs more investigation.   The character of any extra gain will certainly be different than the base gain of the psp2's transformer.  If you need that extra gain, other preamps may sound better.

It's possible that you'd be better off keeping the psp2 at 0 and getting the extra gain from the m10, etc.  Same for the gain from the sensitivity switch.   Just a thought.

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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Adding the PSP2 back in my rig
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2011, 12:19:13 PM »
The V3 is supposed to be ultra transparent. I really like the sound, but I know others don't care for it (TNJazz, I'm looking at you...) I'm planning on trying this config on Mon, and hopefully I'll have a comp. if all goes well.

The v3 is extremely detailed and has a great soundstage, with lots of definition and depth.  What other portable preamp offers more detail?

However, I feel certain it gives up a bit of low end.  Sometimes that can be a good thing, but I don't see how that characteristic can be considered transparent.

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Offline tedyun

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Re: Adding the PSP2 back in my rig
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2011, 12:27:37 PM »
But the Lunatec manual says so!!!

"..the lunatec V3 will faithfully serve as an invisible link between your microphone and recording device."

They wouldn't lie about that, would they?

 ;)

I don't know. I'll try to get that comp so we can judge. I tend to roll off the bass in post anyway so maybe that is why I like the V3 sound....

The V3 is supposed to be ultra transparent. I really like the sound, but I know others don't care for it (TNJazz, I'm looking at you...) I'm planning on trying this config on Mon, and hopefully I'll have a comp. if all goes well.

The v3 is extremely detailed and has a great soundstage, with lots of definition and depth.  What other portable preamp offers more detail?

However, I feel certain it gives up a bit of low end.  Sometimes that can be a good thing, but I don't see how that characteristic can be considered transparent.
Mics: B&K 4011, Schoeps MK5 (Nbobs, Naiant PFA), Busman BSC-1 (K11/K21/K31/K41 caps), Church CA-14 (o, c), Church CAFS, Core Sound Binaurals
Pre: EAA PSP-2,  Lunatec V3, Nbox-Platinum, Church CA-9200
ADC: Mytek 192 ADC, Oade Mod SBM-1
Rec: Oade Supermod PMD-661, Tascam DR60D, M-Audio MicroTrack II, Korg MR-1 (32GB SSD mod); Sony PCM-M10, Edirol R09HR; iRiver HP-120
Photo: Canon 5D3, Canon EF-S 17-55mm f2.8, Canon EF 35mm f1.4L Canon EF 24-70 f2.8L MkI, Canon EF 70-200mm f2.8L IS MkI, Canon EF 50 mm f1.4, Canon EF 50 f1.2L, Canon EF 300 f/4L IS, Canon EF 100-400 f4-5.6L IS MkI
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Offline page

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Re: Adding the PSP2 back in my rig
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2011, 01:47:01 PM »
Page, the psp2 only has input transformers.  And they were custom designed for the psp2.

Reading the manual, the sensitivity switch causes more gain to be added.  It isn't clear whether that gain is from the same opamp source as the +6 and +12..  The needs more investigation.   The character of any extra gain will certainly be different than the base gain of the psp2's transformer.  If you need that extra gain, other preamps may sound better.

It's possible that you'd be better off keeping the psp2 at 0 and getting the extra gain from the m10, etc.  Same for the gain from the sensitivity switch.   Just a thought.

Thanks.

Yes, the sensitivity is trying match your mic output to a standard level at which point you can request another 6 or 12db of gain on top of that. Picking a level that is designed for "quieter mics" will only yield more gain. The AKGs are hot mics, that's great for the psp2's transformers since they will be more likely to overload and yeild that sonic goo that people want it for. The bummer is that it's not like you can back off your initial gain setting since you're already at the lowest value.

Nagra looks to be using a similar setup with their new EMP preamp, pick the sensitivity of your mics and then dail it in. (they are using 2mv/pa, 10mv/pa and 30mv/pa)

Now, one option would be to run the pads on the AKGs, but that sort of reduces that tranny-goo (go ahead, giggle) that you get from overloading, still keep it at -35, add 0db in the second section, and send that to the DR-07, that might get it under the +8db threshold, I'd have to do some math to see but it looks like it would be close. Or you could just buy an M10.  :D
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Re: Adding the PSP2 back in my rig
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2011, 02:53:41 PM »
options, options! As funny/goofy as it sounds (and prob is)...I like to watch the lights dance on the v3 ::)

I may run one set w/ just the psp2 and the 2nd w/ both.

and all this talk of an M10...well, I'll need to look into that.  That's a pretty slick/simple recorder from what I can tell just at a quick glance.  and reasonable for as much as I get out taping these days.  I keep telling my wife I'm going to eventually put my rig in the YS.  but, she won't let me.  her response is, "No you're not!  you love to tape!"  My response is, "Yes, you're right.  but, i can borrow a rig if need be from other taper friends.  plus, we could use the $$ to pay off credit card bills, etc."  hahaha.  However, at the end of the day, I haven't been in a situation to where I NEEDED to sell it.  I've been close in the past.  but, fortunately, circumstances and situations worked out for me.


12/17/11 rig update: AKG c480b(ck61/62/63) > Canare StarQuad mic cables > EAA PSP-2 and/or Lunatec V3 > Marantz PMD-661 (Oade Bros. Warm Mod)

2-7-07 rig update: AKG c480b(ck61/62/63) > Canare StarQuad mic cables > Lunatec V3 and/or EAA-PSP2 > ODL-276 > NJB3|D8.

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Adding the PSP2 back in my rig
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2011, 02:56:17 PM »
I think you need to test going out of the minijack directly into the deck. 

I do not understand at all why you want to even bother with the V3.  It's doing nothing in this scenario except adding a second gain stage you have to run through.
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Re: Adding the PSP2 back in my rig
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2011, 03:06:37 PM »
But the Lunatec manual says so!!!

"..the lunatec V3 will faithfully serve as an invisible link between your microphone and recording device."

They wouldn't lie about that, would they?

 ;)

I don't know. I'll try to get that comp so we can judge. I tend to roll off the bass in post anyway so maybe that is why I like the V3 sound....

The V3 is supposed to be ultra transparent. I really like the sound, but I know others don't care for it (TNJazz, I'm looking at you...) I'm planning on trying this config on Mon, and hopefully I'll have a comp. if all goes well.

The v3 is extremely detailed and has a great soundstage, with lots of definition and depth.  What other portable preamp offers more detail?

However, I feel certain it gives up a bit of low end.  Sometimes that can be a good thing, but I don't see how that characteristic can be considered transparent.

You rolled-off the mk41>v3 sound? What mics did you do even more LF cuts on ???
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Sound Devices MixPre-6 | Tascam DR-70D ->
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Offline ero3030

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Re: Adding the PSP2 back in my rig
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2011, 10:22:26 PM »
if u dont come digi out of the v3, all u got is 2 pre's giving gain, no adc from the v3.  so u r still using the adc in your hand held,  pretty much making the v3 pointless.  ed
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Offline tedyun

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Re: Adding the PSP2 back in my rig
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2011, 10:28:30 AM »
I contend that because of the stepped gain of the PSP-2, you need to do fine level adjustment at some point after the PSP-2.

Assuming the numeric difference in the "Mic Sensitivity" steps translates 1:1 to gain in dB, and assuming the lowest setting possible with the PSP-2 is +20 dB (see previously in this thread), then the steps are:

+20 (Mic sens: "-35"; Gain "0")
+26 (Mic sens: "-35"; Gain "+6")
+32 (Mic sens: "-35"; Gain "+12")
+40 (Mic sens: "-55"; Gain "0")
+46 (Mic sens: "-55"; Gain "+6")
+52 (Mic sens: "-55"; Gain "+12")
+55 (Mic sens: "-70"; Gain "0")
+61 (Mic sens: "-70"; Gain "+6")
+67 (Mic sens: "-70"; Gain "+12")

Just going off the venue that I've taped a few times, my gain is usually set between +20 to +40, depending on various factors, like the loudness of the band, where I'm standing, and the type of preamp (I've run an Aerco, V3, Lemosax and PSP-2).

So with the PSP-2, it doesn't give me much to play with in the +20 to +40 gain range if you want to do fine adjustments to the gain to get levels between -6 and 0. I am going to be either under or over, so I have to have a second step where I add gain or attenuate.

I am either going to do this with a second stage preamp (like a dedicated unit or the preamp in the recorder), or using software in post.

At this point, I don't mind lugging around the V3, particularly at that venue. There is actually a spot where I can take out all my gear and place it on a shelf, protected from the crowd.

Anyway, I am planning to tape Greensky Bluegrass on Mon at that venue and I will be going:

PSP-2 (bal) > V3 (dig) > MT II or PMD-661   (and hopefully PSP-2 (bal) > V3 (analog) > Mytek > PMD 661)
PSP-2 (unbal) > Korg MR-1

I will probably engage the -20 dB switch on the V3, and use -20 dB attenuator cables on the Korg. Hopefully I'll have a comp for "y'all" (just getting into the bluegrass mood).




if u dont come digi out of the v3, all u got is 2 pre's giving gain, no adc from the v3.  so u r still using the adc in your hand held,  pretty much making the v3 pointless.  ed
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 10:32:33 AM by tedyun »
Mics: B&K 4011, Schoeps MK5 (Nbobs, Naiant PFA), Busman BSC-1 (K11/K21/K31/K41 caps), Church CA-14 (o, c), Church CAFS, Core Sound Binaurals
Pre: EAA PSP-2,  Lunatec V3, Nbox-Platinum, Church CA-9200
ADC: Mytek 192 ADC, Oade Mod SBM-1
Rec: Oade Supermod PMD-661, Tascam DR60D, M-Audio MicroTrack II, Korg MR-1 (32GB SSD mod); Sony PCM-M10, Edirol R09HR; iRiver HP-120
Photo: Canon 5D3, Canon EF-S 17-55mm f2.8, Canon EF 35mm f1.4L Canon EF 24-70 f2.8L MkI, Canon EF 70-200mm f2.8L IS MkI, Canon EF 50 mm f1.4, Canon EF 50 f1.2L, Canon EF 300 f/4L IS, Canon EF 100-400 f4-5.6L IS MkI
Video: Canon HF100

Offline hi and lo

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Re: Adding the PSP2 back in my rig
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2011, 04:32:13 PM »

I contend that because of the stepped gain of the PSP-2, you need to do fine level adjustment at some point after the PSP-2.

Nice work on figuring out the gain range Ted!

The PSP-2 was originally designed to work with the DAT recorders of the early nineties. Gain is set on the PSP-2 and then you use the potentiometer on the DAT deck for trim. However, I wouldn't haul around a V3 for this function unless you intended to go digital out to the recording device.


 

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