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Offline yousef

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Combining different HD modes
« on: August 17, 2011, 06:20:56 PM »
A theoretical question at present but at some point in the future I imagine I'll be taking all three of my cameras to a gig and was wondering how best to combine the footage afterwards.

These are my cams:

Panasonic TM10 -1080i
Panasonic ZS3 - 720p
Sanyo HD200 - 1080p

Obviously, it's not an ideal setup in any event. I'm not even sure if you can dump the different formats into the same Vegas project.

I was wondering what the 'least worst' approach would be: to try and get everything upscaled to 1080p or down to 720p? Is either approach even possible? Or would it be better to film everything in the lowest common denominator setting?

Your thoughts would be much appreciated.
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Offline beatkilla

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2011, 12:14:02 AM »
What is your final delivery format going to be?blu ray?dvd?web?

Offline shoestringconcerts

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2011, 02:35:06 AM »
Sony Vegas pro 9 or 10 should have no problem with editing those as a multicam

your can output it as whatever you want. i would suggest a 720p output since your digicam only shoots 720p

upscaling it doesnt make sense
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Offline yousef

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2011, 05:43:30 AM »
Thanks for the replies.

I've not yet decided on the delivery format - either DVD or bluray depending on if the footage will justify the expence of going the bluray route.

The thinking behind upscaling was to preserve the quality of the footage from the 1080p camera. That is to say, to bring everything up to 1080p and have some genuine 1080p footage in there rather than bringing everything down to 720p. But I was wondering if the process of deinterlacing the interlaced footage might introduce too many artefacts and would therefore be worse in terms of overall effect than bringing the 1080p and 1080i down to 720p.
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Offline shoestringconcerts

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2011, 05:22:28 PM »
using 1990'bluray mpeg2 technology will introduce more artifacting than deinterlacing would

final output should be an mov/avc/h264 based file for best quality

the reality is our eyes are so used to seeing poor quality highly compressed video(youtube, cable TV) that whatever you use for your final output will be higher quality

The ZS3 is not a particularly good camera so upscaling its footage is probably not a good idea
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Offline stantheman1976

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2011, 07:35:48 PM »
Vegas should be able to handle them with no issues. I would drop them all in the timeline and set the project properties to the the lowest resolution footage you're using, in this case the 720p. Whatever your delivery format is don't render to a frame size bigger than that resolution.

Offline beatkilla

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2011, 08:11:51 PM »
Proper Deinterlacing is tricky and can be done numerous ways . The worst way is to blend fields which vegas is set to by default even if you have no intentions of deinterlacing your footage vegas has blended all your interlaced footage fields together unless you tell the project properties twice not to.

Offline sabre

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2011, 11:08:07 PM »
Why don't you just drop the camera that shoots in 720p and just work with the 1080i and 1080p footage?

Offline yousef

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2011, 05:13:05 AM »
Thanks for the further replies.

Good to know about Vegas defaulting to blending interlaced frames - I wouldn't have known about that otherwise.

Leaving the lowest resolution camera at home does seem sensible but I was thinking as it's there I may as well use it for something - probably just mounted at the back of the room for the occasional wide shot.

I was wondering - are there any issues with just mixing and matching the footage - i.e. leaving it all as-is and having a mix of 720p and 1080p on the finished product? I can understand the thinking behind bringing everything down to 720p but it seems a shame not to utilize footage in the highest quality available.

Similar question re combining the interlaced and progressive footage: is it possible to leave it all as-is on the finished disc and if so would it look strange flitting between the two formats?
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Offline stantheman1976

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2011, 07:24:31 PM »
How could you have different formats on the finished product? When you render you have to pick a single format to render to. It doesn't matter how many different formats you put in the project, you still have to pick a single resolution and format to render to for your final product.

That's why it was suggested that if you're going to use the 720 camera to make your final render no larger than that. Trying to upsize a mediocre 720p camera to 1080p would look worse than dealing with the interlacing issues of 1080p and 1080i together.

Offline yousef

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2011, 05:28:32 AM »
Thanks for that.

I'll not be giving this a try until at least next month - no doubt I'll be reactivating this thread with many more questions then.
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Offline shoestringconcerts

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2011, 04:28:10 AM »
Thanks for that.

I'll not be giving this a try until at least next month - no doubt I'll be reactivating this thread with many more questions then.

google is your friend
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Offline yousef

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2011, 05:53:04 AM »
google is your friend

Thanks for that, "Tapersection Newbie". If my questions are too basic for you, please feel free to ignore them. In the meantime I'll continue to search for information using Google and ask specific questions here.  ::)
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Offline beatkilla

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2011, 01:55:06 PM »

Offline yousef

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2011, 02:16:13 PM »
Here's some good info for you.....

http://www.animemusicvideos.org/guides/avtechbeta/interlacedvsprogressive.html

Thanks for that - got lost in there for quite a while. I look forward to making my way through all that information...
music>other stuff>ears
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Offline stantheman1976

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2011, 07:11:37 PM »
google is your friend

Thanks for that, "Tapersection Newbie". If my questions are too basic for you, please feel free to ignore them. In the meantime I'll continue to search for information using Google and ask specific questions here.  ::)
nyone
A couple other good spots are videohelp.com and dvinfo.net/forum. There is a lot of info on both. Don't be afraid to ask any question. If anyone here or any other board gives you a hard time or acts like an ass about answering a question then they are someone who shouldn't be instructing another anyway.

Offline yousef

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2011, 06:33:49 AM »
I had a bit of a play around at a gig last night and captured about 25mins of 720p footage with the ZS3.

I've dumped it into Vegas and done a couple of quick edits but I can't figure out what settings to use when rendering it - I'm completely lost in the number of different formats and options.

The raw file size is about 2.8GB. My Bluray player will play AVCHD files that are burned to a DVD disc - to my simple mind, this means that I should be able to get the footage comfortably onto a DVD in its original quality. But Vegas Pro 9 doesn't seem to give the option of rendering to the .m2ts - the format the raw file is in.

So, my question is: what format should I be rendering to to ensure that the footage is subject to the least processing and compression? The advice given above would suggest ACV but when I select "Sony AVC" in Vegas, none of the options it gives me seem to fit: all the AVCHD and Bluray options are for 1080i. The best fit seems to be the slightly worryingly named "Internet 16:9 HD 30p".

I'm not interested in streaming or uploading this footage so filesize isn't really a concern - I just want to get the edited version into a playable format with as little processing ocurring as possible.

I know these must be very basic questions but after a few hours of trawling the web, I now know far more but understand much less about the different formats available...
music>other stuff>ears
my recordings: http://db.etree.org/yousef
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Offline beatkilla

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2011, 01:08:50 PM »
For burning HD material to AVCHD disc(standard dvd media)playable in Bluray player you need to use Sony AVC.

Mpeg -2(which is m2ts.-----mpeg transport stream)has a bitrate that is too high for a regular DVD ....thats why you need to use Sony AVC with a bitrate of 15 or 16mbps.However this is not possible in Vegas for 720p to AVC for Bluray or AVCHD.

Are you using DVD architect 5.0 as well?If so your original file might be burned directly to disc without any rendering if its compliant.....but you said you needed to edit it so i think you should in vegas render to Sony AVC 1080i BLURAY template and render your audio seperate to wav.  16-48.And put it on DVD to see how it looks.

Does your zs3 record to 1080?if so i would avoid 720p myself.

Offline yousef

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2011, 06:39:59 PM »
Thanks for that - things are becoming a bit clearer now.

The ZS3 doesn't do 1080 at all as far as I can tell. I just stuck it in my bag as I left for the gig and had a bit of a half-hearted mess around with it. The footage came out surprisingly well - I think I'll be taking it along to every gig from now on.

It's looking like I'll be investing in a Bluray burner at some point in the near future. With that in mind as the likely delivery format for this material what would you recommend as the render settings? Looking at the options in Vegas, MPEG-2 using the "HDV 720-30p" template seems to be the best option but I'd appreciate your thoughts.
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my recordings: http://db.etree.org/yousef
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Offline beatkilla

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2011, 06:48:14 PM »
The only compliant files in the bluray spec are  1080i or 720p but not 720  30p it is 60p.Are you using dvd architect 5.0 or something else?

Offline yousef

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Re: Combining different HD modes
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2011, 07:04:15 PM »
I've not got Architect on the PC in front of me but I think the version I've been using is either 4 or 5.

It seems like I've captured by footage in a highly inconvenient format.
music>other stuff>ears
my recordings: http://db.etree.org/yousef
http://www.manchestertaper.co.uk
twitter: @manchestertaper

 

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