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Author Topic: Opinion: 1x Tekkeon or 4 DVD batt's?  (Read 3622 times)

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Offline 3mdk5

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Opinion: 1x Tekkeon or 4 DVD batt's?
« on: May 29, 2012, 10:30:51 PM »
So,

If I can buy one of the "new version" Tekkeon's from them for $220 lets say, or four Lenmar DVD batteries (not huge capacity, about 23Wh) for $35-40 each, what would you carry?
Currently I'm carrying two DVD batteries, one for V3 and one for DR-680 but need more power for summer festival season.  I was carrying two DVD's for the Tascam (one primary, one backup/long show use), but now I'm carrying the V3 as well.  Or what about this new DVD battery that someone here linked to:

http://www.bixnet.com/bx948.html

$90 for 48Wh.

I was thinking 4 dvd batteries, especially if they can be had for $35.  Even assuming $40, that's $160, versus $180 for two of the BiX batteries.  Or $220-$280 for the Tekkeon.
It's not that I'm super cheap, but $$ is $$, space/weight matter, heat in the bag in the summertime matter (the V3 sheds heat big time as you may know), cost vs. benefit, etc.

Let's leave out the "buy a large battery, what if the show goes long" portion of the debate, since I will always have a backup (a full battery, or AA's in the Tascam).

Thanks for the space, let's have some discussion of preferences...

-Matt


stevetoney

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Re: Opinion: 1x Tekkeon or 4 DVD batt's?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2012, 10:54:10 PM »
If the only choices are the Tekkeons or the DVD batteries for the same price, I'd get a Tekkeon. 

A couple of comments about your post. 

1)  There's been some discussion that the batteries similar to those shown in the photo's on the Bixnet site have their capacities misrepresented for purposes of inflating the price of the battery.  You'll get a good battery, but maybe not the size you expected.  Use caution if that's the route you go.

2)  You state that the V3 sheds heat.  It's not really the V3.  It's that you're powering the V3, which needs 6V, with a 9V battery.  There's 3 extra volts of energy that needs to go somewhere so it dissipates as heat energy.  If you were to use a 6V battery to power your V3 (or the Tekkeon set at 6V), I think you'll find that the V3 runs cool.

You might want to consider an SLA.  They're cheap, reliable, easy to find and available in a variety of capacities to meet your need for either run-time weight/size limits or both.  But the main thing is they're cheap and reliable.  I get them locally at a BatteriesPlus and no, weight isn't really an issue IMHO with SLAs.  Tapers are real pussies if they can't carry a battery that weighs 2 or 3 pounds but will power a piece of gear for a day or more (for less than $40).

Finally, another cheap option for lots of battery juice is 7.2V ni-mh RC batteries.  These would work fine on your V3 if you had a cable.  RC batteries are all over ebay in high capacities (4000mah or so).  I have a whole slew of RC batteries and they are my go-to 'old faithful' batteries when I need tons of power.  My cables pigtail to either two or three branches so I can connect either 2 or 3 RC batteries in parallel, making for 8 to 12 Amp Hours of power with a single battery plug-in.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 11:05:41 PM by tonedeaf »

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Re: Opinion: 1x Tekkeon or 4 DVD batt's?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2012, 11:02:33 PM »
If the only choices are the Tekkeons or the DVD batteries for the same price, I'd get a Tekkeon.  Otherwise, there are lots of battery suggestions in the Remote Power forum that would meet your needs.

I agree with this. For me, the tekkeon is nice because I have gear that isn't sensitive to regulated power issues, and I have gear that requires various voltages (10-18v, 16v, and 5v) and not all of that is taping gear, so it gets some usage even though I may not be taping.

Second, something to keep in mind, lithium-ion decays over it's life whether it's used or not and degrades with each usage. Thats the problem with getting the most energy density you can at this stage of technology. A li-ion battery in 5 years won't hold nearly the charge that a fresh one does. So I only want as many batteries as I absolutely need at any given time and I want to use them as much as possible until I hit the cycle issue and then recycle them via appropriate methods.

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stevetoney

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Re: Opinion: 1x Tekkeon or 4 DVD batt's?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2012, 11:18:23 PM »
If the only choices are the Tekkeons or the DVD batteries for the same price, I'd get a Tekkeon.  Otherwise, there are lots of battery suggestions in the Remote Power forum that would meet your needs.

I agree with this. For me, the tekkeon is nice because I have gear that isn't sensitive to regulated power issues, and I have gear that requires various voltages (10-18v, 16v, and 5v) and not all of that is taping gear, so it gets some usage even though I may not be taping.

Second, something to keep in mind, lithium-ion decays over it's life whether it's used or not and degrades with each usage. Thats the problem with getting the most energy density you can at this stage of technology. A li-ion battery in 5 years won't hold nearly the charge that a fresh one does. So I only want as many batteries as I absolutely need at any given time and I want to use them as much as possible until I hit the cycle issue and then recycle them via appropriate methods.

So, to elaborate a bit...if you have 4 dvd batteries, you'd probably want to keep track of their usage over time and equalize their usage in order to maximize their life.  A little bit of a hassle as compared to just having a single larger capacity battery that you use all the time.

As far as your comment about holding charge over time, isn't the bigger factor in ensuring most efficient life over a long time frame is how it's stored...temperature and recharge state?  I can't remember off the top about Li-ion but I don't think any rechargeable battery likes to be stored for long periods discharged, does it?

 

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Re: Opinion: 1x Tekkeon or 4 DVD batt's?
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2012, 11:22:43 PM »
If the only choices are the Tekkeons or the DVD batteries for the same price, I'd get a Tekkeon.  Otherwise, there are lots of battery suggestions in the Remote Power forum that would meet your needs.

I agree with this. For me, the tekkeon is nice because I have gear that isn't sensitive to regulated power issues, and I have gear that requires various voltages (10-18v, 16v, and 5v) and not all of that is taping gear, so it gets some usage even though I may not be taping.

Second, something to keep in mind, lithium-ion decays over it's life whether it's used or not and degrades with each usage. Thats the problem with getting the most energy density you can at this stage of technology. A li-ion battery in 5 years won't hold nearly the charge that a fresh one does. So I only want as many batteries as I absolutely need at any given time and I want to use them as much as possible until I hit the cycle issue and then recycle them via appropriate methods.

So, to elaborate a bit...if you have 4 dvd batteries, you'd probably want to keep track of their usage over time and equalize their usage in order to maximize their life.  A little bit of a hassle as compared to just having a single larger capacity battery that you use all the time.

As far as your comment about holding charge over time, isn't the bigger factor in ensuring most efficient life over a long time frame is how it's stored...temperature and recharge state?  I can't remember off the top about Li-ion but I don't think any rechargeable battery likes to be stored for long periods discharged, does it?

correct, if you can store it at half charge in a cool dry spot (like 45 degrees or so, but someone should look before they do anything about it), that slows the degradation, but I'm not sure how much time it buys you exactly. I just know it buys some time.

There are a lot of things that speed up the process, age, heat, looking at it funny, etc.  :P
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

stevetoney

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Re: Opinion: 1x Tekkeon or 4 DVD batt's?
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2012, 11:39:37 PM »
If the only choices are the Tekkeons or the DVD batteries for the same price, I'd get a Tekkeon.  Otherwise, there are lots of battery suggestions in the Remote Power forum that would meet your needs.

I agree with this. For me, the tekkeon is nice because I have gear that isn't sensitive to regulated power issues, and I have gear that requires various voltages (10-18v, 16v, and 5v) and not all of that is taping gear, so it gets some usage even though I may not be taping.

Second, something to keep in mind, lithium-ion decays over it's life whether it's used or not and degrades with each usage. Thats the problem with getting the most energy density you can at this stage of technology. A li-ion battery in 5 years won't hold nearly the charge that a fresh one does. So I only want as many batteries as I absolutely need at any given time and I want to use them as much as possible until I hit the cycle issue and then recycle them via appropriate methods.

So, to elaborate a bit...if you have 4 dvd batteries, you'd probably want to keep track of their usage over time and equalize their usage in order to maximize their life.  A little bit of a hassle as compared to just having a single larger capacity battery that you use all the time.

As far as your comment about holding charge over time, isn't the bigger factor in ensuring most efficient life over a long time frame is how it's stored...temperature and recharge state?  I can't remember off the top about Li-ion but I don't think any rechargeable battery likes to be stored for long periods discharged, does it?

correct, if you can store it at half charge in a cool dry spot (like 45 degrees or so, but someone should look before they do anything about it), that slows the degradation, but I'm not sure how much time it buys you exactly. I just know it buys some time.

There are a lot of things that speed up the process, age, heat, looking at it funny, etc.  :P

It's funny.  I have a Power Runner li-ion that is like the energizer bunny.  It just goes and goes.  The battery is lasting longer than the outter plastic casing, which is cracked and falling out in chunks.  It's no longer a pretty battery to look at (she's all duct taped together), but as far as providing a reliable source of power, it's still going strong after AT LEAST 5 years of use and I'm sure it's been recharged more than 200 times...probably hasn't been 300 yet.  I can't say for sure, but if I were to guess I don't think the overall capacity has dropped all that much over the years.  Contrary to conventional wisdom, up to a point, frequent use isn't one of the factors that contributes to shortening battery life...it seems as if it's the opposite...usage helps maintain battery health.  Back to the OP, that again suggests that the single Tekkeon might be the better choice, all other factors being equal.

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Re: Opinion: 1x Tekkeon or 4 DVD batt's?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2012, 12:08:26 AM »
one plus about several smaller batteries for festi season is that you can run 2 and recharge 2 at the same time.

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Offline bluntforcetrauma

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Re: Opinion: 1x Tekkeon or 4 DVD batt's?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2012, 10:29:30 AM »
If the only choices are the Tekkeons or the DVD batteries for the same price, I'd get a Tekkeon.  Otherwise, there are lots of battery suggestions in the Remote Power forum that would meet your needs.

I agree with this. For me, the tekkeon is nice because I have gear that isn't sensitive to regulated power issues, and I have gear that requires various voltages (10-18v, 16v, and 5v) and not all of that is taping gear, so it gets some usage even though I may not be taping.

Second, something to keep in mind, lithium-ion decays over it's life whether it's used or not and degrades with each usage. Thats the problem with getting the most energy density you can at this stage of technology. A li-ion battery in 5 years won't hold nearly the charge that a fresh one does. So I only want as many batteries as I absolutely need at any given time and I want to use them as much as possible until I hit the cycle issue and then recycle them via appropriate methods.


hello, how do you keep track of when you bought a certain battery, say a lithium-ion battery and then keep track of how many uses and recharges the battery has been thru?

for example, in using Lithium-ion battery for my camcorders I usually just label a piece of tape with the date i started using the battery.  So I only know when I started using the battery. I also have 3 video cameras and I circulate 6 lithium ion batteries when shooting video(basically 2 batteries per video camera, especially since i film multicam most of the time).  I place a piece of masking tape on the battery and write down the date of initial issue. But i dont really have a way to record how many recharges that each battery has been through.

When is your first indication that your lithium ion battery is beginning to show signs of degradation? earliest signs?
what is a cycle issue?you  say you use the batteries until they hit the cycle issue? what does that mean?

thanks

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Re: Opinion: 1x Tekkeon or 4 DVD batt's?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2012, 10:50:13 AM »
hello, how do you keep track of when you bought a certain battery, say a lithium-ion battery and then keep track of how many uses and recharges the battery has been thru?

for example, in using Lithium-ion battery for my camcorders I usually just label a piece of tape with the date i started using the battery.  So I only know when I started using the battery. I also have 3 video cameras and I circulate 6 lithium ion batteries when shooting video(basically 2 batteries per video camera, especially since i film multicam most of the time).  I place a piece of masking tape on the battery and write down the date of initial issue. But i dont really have a way to record how many recharges that each battery has been through.

I have a sale record of when I baught it and I assume it was manufactured 3-5 months before that. I then use it for 3 years since I received the battery (assuming I baught it new) and retire it after that. As for counting recharges. over the  years, I'd have to use it almost once every other day to reach 500 cycles which is the number I've seen quoted as a ballpark for lithium-ion. It's not a hard and fast, but more of a guideline. My cellphone battery which has been abused has lasted upwards of 800 cycles (charging once a day, maybe twice) and while it definately doesn't hold it's original capacity, it still holds something. So since I'm not zman, I don't have to worry about the cycle count on my 722 L-series battery, and I likely won't have to for the tekkeon since I use it about every 4-7 days for something. My primary concern there is age and heat.

When is your first indication that your lithium ion battery is beginning to show signs of degradation? earliest signs?

Less capacity. While it's not exactly healthy to do it often, I do periodically drain a battery the entire way to see whats left. Maybe once every 6-12 months or so. Take that number, and shave 20% and that's what I'm comfortable budgeting.

what is a cycle issue?you  say you use the batteries until they hit the cycle issue? what does that mean?

It's just a decrease in performance and how fast that occurs. A battery won't hold the same charge as it does on the first cycle as it does on the 200th cycle. That difference will be smaller than the difference between cycle 200 and cycle 400. The estimated life of lithium-ion is around 500 cycles but you might get more (again, it's a guideline). I personally worry more about age degeneration, but I've been bitten by that before.
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stevetoney

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Re: Opinion: 1x Tekkeon or 4 DVD batt's?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2012, 01:12:45 PM »
Less capacity. While it's not exactly healthy to do it often, I do periodically drain a battery the entire way to see whats left. Maybe once every 6-12 months or so. Take that number, and shave 20% and that's what I'm comfortable budgeting.

I've become a bit of a battery geek, but I still get confused.  For that reason, it would be nice to have subformum added to the Remote Power forum where would could discuss details about specific batteries and/or specific chemistries. 

For me, one of the bothersome things about battery discussions is where a concept that applies to a certain battery chemistry gets applied universally for all battery chemistries.  For example, lots of people still don't realize that there's no 'memory effect' on Li-ion batteries. 

As far as draining a Li-ion battery down, I think there's some misinformation here too.  Yes, I agree that it's unhealthy to drain your Li-ions all the way down to 0V...it's documented in Battery University that continuously discharging a battery completely eventually will cause the battery to not return to the full voltage it provided as a new battery.  However, this is not usually what happens when we connect our recorders and allow them to go dead in order to determine the run-time from a certain size battery.  In this case, you aren't running your li-ion to 0V.  The low-voltage cut-out on most recorders is just some lower voltage set point.  I think it's perfectly safe to run li-ions down in this case with no fear of problem. 

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Re: Opinion: 1x Tekkeon or 4 DVD batt's?
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2012, 08:22:37 PM »
Li-Ion cell's have a much lower memory effect than let's say NiMh.

Li-Poly's even less

Both you cannot completely discharge or the cell(s) will be ruined - you can buy cells with protection circuits though

To get maximum life out of a Li-Ion or Li-Poly battery you need to manage the battery (run within the specs of the battery - don't over load the battery, never completely drain the battery, never overcharge the battery, etc)  and buy a quality battery or cells.

I have an electrovaya PowerPad 160 I bought new in April 2002 and have solely used it for taping (and made sure I never ran over 1.5A at a given time) - the battery still works great - I have used it 200+ times.
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Offline 3mdk5

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Re: Opinion: 1x Tekkeon or 4 DVD batt's?
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2012, 08:44:44 PM »

2)  You state that the V3 sheds heat.  It's not really the V3.  It's that you're powering the V3, which needs 6V, with a 9V battery.  There's 3 extra volts of energy that needs to go somewhere so it dissipates as heat energy.  If you were to use a 6V battery to power your V3 (or the Tekkeon set at 6V), I think you'll find that the V3 runs cool.


Thanks for the comments Tone.  My experience in the past was that the V3 was always somewhat "hot", although you are correct that using the DVD batteries, the V3 is definitely "hotter".  I used to use mostly Ecocharge batteries, and am familiar with SLA.  I used a homemade battery sled to power my DA-P1 as well.
I guess the idea now is to carry the least amount of gear possible.  Given that I'm already packing a V3 and DR-680, plus mics and cables, I'd like to not add extra poundage.  And yes, I have humped lots of weight from the car to the outdoor venue site in my day - chair, 2 gear bags, mic stand(s), power cables and extension cords, etc.  I must say I was somewhat jealous a few summers back when I helped a fellow taper gain access to a venue with his gear, which was in a small courier bag slung over his shoulder.  Other than his mic stand, he was totally inconspicuous.  The contents of the bag?  Schoeps caps/active cables and a 722.  That's it.  While I accept (and love) the gear I've chosen, I think it behooves me to keep the bag as unwieldy as possible.

I actually have some RC batteries as well, just no cable.  They were included with the Fostex I bought when I returned to taping.  Who made your hot-swappable cables?  Ted?  Darktrain?

Thanks to all for the comments so far.  This is why I read the forums - words of wisdom/experience from a wide range of the community.  Keep 'em coming!



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Re: Opinion: 1x Tekkeon or 4 DVD batt's?
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2012, 09:00:18 PM »
I actually have some RC batteries as well, just no cable.  They were included with the Fostex I bought when I returned to taping.  Who made your hot-swappable cables?  Ted?  Darktrain?

Either of those guys would make a good cable for you.  In my case, I whipped one out myself from Radio Shack parts.  I kinda like the locking Tamiya connector...that's the name of the white connector that's probably on the end of your RC batteries.  Radio Shack sells those for five or six bucks a set I think.  I made my cable with a 10amp (I think) in-line fuse in the red wire and then downstream of that, I installed a pigtail or 'y' that goes to a pair of Tamiya's. 

I've run my gear two ways...with two RC batteries connected at the same time and with one battery running for a set amount of time then hot swapping to the second battery before the first runs dead.  Either method works, but I think I read somewhere that your run-times are longer if you only use one-at-a-time and hot swap them.

Offline 3mdk5

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Re: Opinion: 1x Tekkeon or 4 DVD batt's?
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2012, 09:13:58 PM »

I've run my gear two ways...with two RC batteries connected at the same time and with one battery running for a set amount of time then hot swapping to the second battery before the first runs dead.  Either method works, but I think I read somewhere that your run-times are longer if you only use one-at-a-time and hot swap them.

Yes they have Tamiya connectors.  I read up on that type of battery when I got the Fostex... 

I agree that the hot-swap option is better.  That is what I have heard, and that is what Ted G. told me he would make for me when I asked him about cables in the past.   There's no way I would even try to make my own cable. 

-Matt

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Re: Opinion: 1x Tekkeon or 4 DVD batt's?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2012, 10:38:14 AM »
Both you cannot completely discharge or the cell(s) will be ruined - you can buy cells with protection circuits though

Just to drive this point home Richard...and I'm no expert just repeating back what I think I've read...isn't it true that all rechargeable batteries will survive a complete discharge?  It's just that there's a decreased ability to recharge as the battery is a) left for an extended period in the completely discharged state (internal chemistry changes in the battery at this point), and b) the more times you run to 0V, the less chance of being able to recharge.

In other words, unless I'm mistaken, erroneously running a battery to 0V once isn't necessarily a catastrophic event, but leaving it and/or doing it repeatedly is.

 

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