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Author Topic: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences  (Read 35841 times)

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Offline dogmusic

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2014, 04:03:04 PM »
As someone who owns the M10, I don't like its stereo separation either -- it's good as long as your sound source is near the recorder. The more that moves away, the more mono-like your recording becomes.

I actually had the opposite experience. Listening closely to an M10 ambient recording I have posted in this thread, I felt that the stereo spread seemed wider when there were no sounds nearby.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2014, 04:19:33 PM »
Thanks for the tip! Do you think that placing binaural mics in reasonable distance from each other (e.g. by attaching them to some sort of DIY poles) would also yield decent results? I know this is not exactly the "proper" way of doing binaural recordings but it might be interesting.

Sure.  That can work well, I often use telescopic TV antennas to A-B space small omnis, or attach them to rigid wire-stalks. I've posted alot about ways of doing that in the Oddball Mic Techniques thread. Sometimes that's better, sometimes a baffle is better, sometimes a directional microphone technique is better.

It really depends somewhat on what you are recording and what type of stereo information is most appropriate.  Big immersive ambiences that envelop the listener benefit from different techniques than do sharp imaging recordings where the listener can clearly follow the path of a sound moving from one-side to the other.  The two aren’t mutually exclusive, but some techniques benefit one aspect or the other.

In general-
An angled pair of coincident (x/y) cardioid mics will produce sharper left/right imaging, and less of an enveloping sense of space. 

‘Sufficiently’ spaced omnis (often called A-B spaced omnis) produce recordings that are often described as sounding “big, open and ambient,” without as much of the sharp “pin-point” imaging produced by a pair of x/y cardioids.

Baffled omnis and near-spaced cardioids are in some ways part-way between those things.  These descriptions are subjective simplifications, but hopefully give you an idea of what to expect.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2014, 04:20:37 PM »
Ignoring for a moment the quality of specific gear and issues of stereo imaging and envelopment, let’s back up to the basics here and talk about microphone pattern types first-

Omni microphones are often preferred for this type of recording for a few reasons-

1) They generally sound more natural than directional mics (especially a certain price point).  That is partly due to their frequency balance being pretty much the same as for sound arriving form off-axis as well as on-axis.  A theoretically ideal cardioid would also have the same frequency response off-axis as it does on-axis, and only show differences in signal level for different angles of arrival. But that is almost never the case in reality.  The response to the rear is usually quite different than on-axis.

2) Flatter low-frequency response. Cardioids usually have a reduced low frequency response for sounds arriving from farther than about a meter or so away.

3) Less susceptible to wind and handling-noise.

However, people can and do make good ambience and nature recordings with directional mics. If you are focusing on a particular subject rather than the overall ambience of a space, then directional mics such as cardioids may be more appropriate.  That’s one reason why they are often the preferred pattern around here for music recording- most music tapers more interested in focusing on the clarity of the direct sound coming from the band, rather than the whole ambient ‘sound of the room’.  Quite often tapers want to minimize the ambient sound of the room, rather than emphasize it.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2014, 04:27:41 PM »
Microphone setup and configurations-

Omnis-
In a basic sense, the ‘stereo-ness’ of true omnis depends only on differences in arrival time between microphones which creates phase/timing difference between channels. (Directional mics can do that too or not, depending on the mic setup).  To do that, the microphones need enough space between them to produce significant timing differences, and that significant distance varies by frequency.  When the mics are close together, the differences are minimal and the recording will essentially be mono for most of the frequency range, exhibiting some ‘stereo-ness’ only at rather high frequencies.  The closer the microphones are together, the higher that mostly-mono frequency.  As a rough guide, something like 12” or 15” is what I’d consider a minimal amount of spacing for an unbaffled omni pair.  I usually want 3 or 4 feet between mics, sometimes more, like when I’m using other mics as well.

To get around that spacing requirement, we can place a baffle between the omnis, which produces level differences as the frequency rises, essentially making them increasingly directional at high frequencies.  The recording will still be mostly mono at low frequencies due to the close proximity of the mics to each other, but the level differences as the frequency goes up creates sharper imaging than spaced omnis without a baffle.  So one reason baffled omnis is a preferred way of recording ambiences is that it leverages the good attributes of omni mics while also getting some improved directional imaging that is more like angled cardioids. 

With a baffle, the spacing between the omni mics can then be less (say just a couple inches up to 16” or so, I like more spacing if possible but that requires a bigger baffle to work), but you still get the benefits of omni mics, and a 360 degree pickup pattern that does a good job of recording the ambience of the entire space.


Cardioids-
Can be A-B spaced, but are usually near-spaced or coincident (meaning they are stacked to be as close as possible, pointed left/right, which is also called X,Y).  Coincident x/y patterns have no timing information between channels, and the ‘stereo-ness’ of the recordings are entirely level difference based.  That can make them easier to mix with other sources, more mono-compatible, and sharp imaging, but less “big, open and enveloping” sounding.  The mono compatibility and level-difference-only stereo can benefit recording a close single source like someone talking, singing or playing guitar.  And that’s primarily what X/Y mics on small recorders are designed for doing rather than recording ambiences.

Near-spaced microphone techniques depend on a small amount of spacing between the mics as well as the angle between mics and that introduces some timing differences above the frequency determined by distance of the spacing.  Those techniques are often preferred around here as sounding more natural than coincident x/y setups, but still retain much of the imaging and focus-on-a-subject aspects of cardioid mics.  Plus the setups are smaller than A-B spaced omnis or omnis with a baffle, so they are easier to use when recording music.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline rastasean

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2014, 04:34:04 PM »
My advice:
Get the m10 and a good pair of headphones and you will be able to hear what the mics are actually recording. You can do a lot of good recordings with the m10 and plug in mics, but there may come a need when you need a pre-amp. Until then, I think the m10 will allow you to record many hours of nature sounds.

While this is not nature related, I recorded this as an off-the-cuff test while at a job several years ago and many people like it: http://www.freesound.org/people/rastataper/sounds/62225/

I used a minidisc recorder and a pair of binaural microphones and I don't think there was any post processing work.

Go to freesound and listen to the recordings and see what equipment was used. You don't have to copy the recording chain exactly to come out with a great recording.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2014, 04:35:34 PM »
Oh yeah, Binaural-
Binaural uses omnis placed in your ears.  It uses the baffle of your head AND the directionality of your outer ears to produce the stereo effect and is best with headphone playback.  It is simply a special case of baffled omnis.

Many around here do something similar except they don't place the mics inside their ears.  That makes the recordings somewhat less personalized to your ear shape and they tend to work better on speakers while still working well on headphones.  It is a baffled omni technique sometimes refered to HTRF around here (which is a fancy acronym for Head Related Transfer Function).

'Binaural' mics are simply small omnis which can be used for any omni setup- A-B spaced, baffled, or headworn.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 04:48:10 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline rastasean

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2014, 04:41:30 PM »
Oh yeah, Binarual-

Yeah, absolutely true. I just tend to use the term 'binaural microphones' when meaning baffled by the head.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2014, 04:45:33 PM »
Some practical take-aways-

For what you're doing you'll want a recorder with a low noise-floor and sufficient 'clean' gain. (The M10 may be that, but I don't own or use one so I can't say)

A baffle will definitely improve the imaging of recordings made with the internal mics of the M10. (or any other handheld with relatively closely spaced internal omnis)

Assuming similar mic quality, directional built-in mics can work for what you want to do, but may not be the best choice for ambient recording if they are limited to an X/Y configuration only. If they can do a near-spaced configuration like ORTF (spaced 17cm and angled 100 degrees apart) then that's more appropriate to your use.

EQ goes a long way in correcting problems which are not imaging related, like overly 'bright' or 'dull', 'thin' or 'boomy' sounding recordings.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 04:49:16 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2014, 06:50:09 PM »
Hmmm.  Looks like I should go out and run an M10-internals test vs Roland in-ears vs some other stereo mic to illustrate the imaging problems of the M10.

However, meanwhile, I don't think it's been mentioned in this thread that the problem with (unbaffled) close spaced mono mics is not just how narrow the stereo image is, but also that the width varies with frequency.  Most omni mics are very omni at low frequencies, but more directional at higher frequencies.  So the stereo image at higher frequencies is wider than the stereo image at lower frequencies.  The ear actually works a bit similarly - which is why sub bass loudspeakers can be placed almost anywhere in a room as the ear doesn't localise them. 

So, in the case of a typical rock band, even if the bass player is off to the side and the drummer's cymbals are in the centre, you'll hear the bass in the middle but you'll get stereo spread of the cymbals.  (I'm illustrating my point rather than being exact).   In the case of birdsong with city rumble, the birds may sound reasonably spread out but the rumble will tend to sound centred.  And the ear's characteristics make matters worse. 

I suspect that the "darkish" sound some report from the M10's internals is down to this effect - I'm not enough of a theorist to speculate on whether the centred bass works kind of additively from the two mikes, but quite definitely you do get frequency dependent imaging skewing from closely spaced omnis.   The VST I've posted before tries to widen the bass more than the top to counteract this.

Offline Amatsubu

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2014, 08:02:48 AM »
Based on your budget, I suggest that you take a closer look at Zoom H6. Its internal XY mic is really good (definitely superior to that of the LS-100 or the Roland model you mentioned), and its preamps are also good for XLR mics -- again better than those of the LS-100. People say that the internals of the Zoom H6 are similar to those of the D50. Also, unlike the D50, The H6 offers 4 XLR inputs. As someone who owns the M10, I don't like its stereo separation either -- it's good as long as your sound source is near the recorder. The more that moves away, the more mono-like your recording becomes. Also, the M10's audio quality is a bit dark and muffled -- I prefer the D50/H6 mics.
All that said, the D100 is a definite step-up from all of those recorders when it comes to internal mics and the quality of the recorder itself.

Surprisingly, I've also heard that the XY mics and internal preamps of the H6 are quite close to those of the D50's (which I don't entirely believe). It would be nice if somebody could confirm that as I had a hard time finding examples of H6 nature recordings.

Microphone setup and configurations-

Omnis-
In a basic sense, the ‘stereo-ness’ of true omnis depends only on differences in arrival time between microphones which creates phase/timing difference between channels. (Directional mics can do that too or not, depending on the mic setup).  To do that, the microphones need enough space between them to produce significant timing differences, and that significant distance varies by frequency.  When the mics are close together, the differences are minimal and the recording will essentially be mono for most of the frequency range, exhibiting some ‘stereo-ness’ only at rather high frequencies.  The closer the microphones are together, the higher that mostly-mono frequency.  As a rough guide, something like 12” or 15” is what I’d consider a minimal amount of spacing for an unbaffled omni pair.  I usually want 3 or 4 feet between mics, sometimes more, like when I’m using other mics as well.

To get around that spacing requirement, we can place a baffle between the omnis, which produces level differences as the frequency rises, essentially making them increasingly directional at high frequencies.  The recording will still be mostly mono at low frequencies due to the close proximity of the mics to each other, but the level differences as the frequency goes up creates sharper imaging than spaced omnis without a baffle.  So one reason baffled omnis is a preferred way of recording ambiences is that it leverages the good attributes of omni mics while also getting some improved directional imaging that is more like angled cardioids. 

With a baffle, the spacing between the omni mics can then be less (say just a couple inches up to 16” or so, I like more spacing if possible but that requires a bigger baffle to work), but you still get the benefits of omni mics, and a 360 degree pickup pattern that does a good job of recording the ambience of the entire space.


Cardioids-
Can be A-B spaced, but are usually near-spaced or coincident (meaning they are stacked to be as close as possible, pointed left/right, which is also called X,Y).  Coincident x/y patterns have no timing information between channels, and the ‘stereo-ness’ of the recordings are entirely level difference based.  That can make them easier to mix with other sources, more mono-compatible, and sharp imaging, but less “big, open and enveloping” sounding.  The mono compatibility and level-difference-only stereo can benefit recording a close single source like someone talking, singing or playing guitar.  And that’s primarily what X/Y mics on small recorders are designed for doing rather than recording ambiences.

Near-spaced microphone techniques depend on a small amount of spacing between the mics as well as the angle between mics and that introduces some timing differences above the frequency determined by distance of the spacing.  Those techniques are often preferred around here as sounding more natural than coincident x/y setups, but still retain much of the imaging and focus-on-a-subject aspects of cardioid mics.  Plus the setups are smaller than A-B spaced omnis or omnis with a baffle, so they are easier to use when recording music.


Thanks for the effort, Gutbucket! I know some of this but it's always good to get insight from someone more experienced than myself. Omnidirectional mics are indeed good for capturing ambience in its entirety. Pseudo-binaural recording should also yield nice results. I wonder how XY mics would work... I know they're geared towards musicians but I'm quite curious. The XY's on the Zoom H6 can be set either to a 90-degree or to a 120-degree pattern. If it's quiet enough it might be a good choice but honestly, I don't think it is.

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2014, 09:35:08 AM »
I hate this thread.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2014, 09:52:50 AM »
Ha, what?

I wonder how XY mics would work... I know they're geared towards musicians but I'm quite curious. The XY's on the Zoom H6 can be set either to a 90-degree or to a 120-degree pattern. If it's quiet enough it might be a good choice but honestly, I don't think it is.

Good quality mics and preamps can superceed subtleties of configuration. I haven't heard the H6, but I've been impressed by a couple recordings made with the H4N of bands in a small room, even though I probably would have prefered a different configuration rather than x/y for that.

One of the reasons x/y with cardioids doesn't sound as "ambient and spacious" as other configurations is that most of the reverberation and ambience that arrives at the microphone pair from outside of the forward facing "window" will be correlated and effectively mono.  A wider angle between mics helps compensate for that a little bit, and although not an option with built-ins, x/y with mic patterns that have a reverse polarity lobe such as supercardioid or figure-8 do a better job of avoiding that.

It really depends on what you want to convey.  Field full of crickets, immersive subway echos, babling brook, the red-tailed hawk screech in the canyon, stuff like that I'd lean towards spaced omnis, and x/y for a ping-pong match, train passing, footsteps, lecture, and stuff like that.  Well, maybe baffled omnis for the train going by, since the low-frequency infrasonic rumble that the omnis will catch is a major portion of the magic in that, with the baffle providing clear directional imaging as it passes.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Amir

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2014, 10:35:56 AM »
As someone who owns the M10, I don't like its stereo separation either -- it's good as long as your sound source is near the recorder. The more that moves away, the more mono-like your recording becomes.

I actually had the opposite experience. Listening closely to an M10 ambient recording I have posted in this thread, I felt that the stereo spread seemed wider when there were no sounds nearby.

Really interesting -- my own time spent with the M10 proves the opposite. The more distant the sound source, the more mono-like M10's recordings become. This is not necessarily bad or unfavorable -- I sometimes prefer that feature of the M10, but it's never been my number-one choice when it comes to stereo recording via built-in mics.

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2014, 10:41:26 AM »
I think this is an informative discussion.  I took my DR2d out in the woods last Spring using the internal mics.  It was interesting how well it picked up the birds chirping in the trees, but what surprised me was the sound from the nearby creek was too prominent compared to the way my ears heard it.   

I haven't tried this with the M10.  Maybe when it warms up...


Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2014, 11:10:56 AM »
Well, maybe baffled omnis for the train going by, since the low-frequency infrasonic rumble that the omnis will catch is a major portion of the magic in that, with the baffle providing clear directional imaging as it passes.

Dug up an old example of this and just posted it to Soundcloud.  I was on my way home late one night after recording a band and stopped at a crossing to catch a late night freight train passing through town.  It's miniature omnis spaced about 20" and baffled with my body.  I used to play this for friends who dropped by to listen to music at my home, a effective way of getting their attention and warming them up for some serious music listening.  [edit- except for the minute or so lead-in and lead-out with night-birds chirping, obviously this is not a quiet ambience of nature sounds. Crank it up to realistic levels!  Turn playback volume up until the birds and traffic at the begining are audible as being at normal listening levels, the train passes at the second audible ringing of crossing bells (as I recall, could be the third). Appologies for a bit of fabric rubbing noise here and there in the quiet parts.]

https://soundcloud.com/leakybucket/late-night-freight-car-2007-04

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« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 03:43:43 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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