Topic: Looking for another digital recorder

[wppcproductions]

Hi Guys.Its been awhile since I chat with you all.Sorry that I'm alittle rusty on this topic.


I need some advice on picking out  another recorder to backup or replace my will used Edirol R-09HR.

I love the R-09HR and its easy to use.Great battery life.

I need something equivalent to the R-09HR .

I see the Roland  R-05 is available and like to know how good is it and I read about the Sony PCM-M10 is out there too.

Nothing fancy here .I do live shows with external mics plus some analog " records,tapes" media transferring to digital with the recorder.

For now a new recorder will replace the Edirol.The Edirol will replace the Sony minidisc which will get retired.

Thanks for your help  in advance.

[Ultfris101]

Sony M10 is a safe choice. Lots of love for it here.

[Marshall7]

If anything ever goes wrong with my Edirol R-09HR, then the Sony PCM M-10 is a no-brainer as the replacement.  if you think the Edirol has good battery life, the M10 will blow you away.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

This question is asked every month or 2...and the answers are exactly the same every time.

M10.

Eventually someone will chime in with another option...but the M10 is the overwhelming favorite around these parts.

[wppcproductions]

Sorry to ask the same boring questions on recorders.LOL.....

Thanks guys for the fast reply.The only problem I have is those small SD/memory sticks  cards that the Sony uses.I was never a fan of them.

Whats wrong with the  R-05 .Why is the Sony better.

Thanks again.

[achalsey]

Nothing wrong with the R-05.  The M10 just generally gets an overall better score.  You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who can tell the sonic difference of running into either.
 

M10 has better battery life.  Unbelievable battery life really.  Like 20 hours on a pair of AAs.  Its nuts.  It also just feels a little more solid.  Less 'plastic-y.'

The R-05 is a little smaller than the M10.  Possibly a little more ergonomically designed.  R-05 record button is larger than the rest and right in the middle.  M10 all the buttons are the same size and in rows so you have to memorize which is which by spacial awareness, not feel.  But that's generally personal preference.  Not like its particularly more difficult on the M10.  People will point out the gain wheel on the M10 is exposed and potentially prone to unexpected movement, especially in a pocket when stealthing, but doesn't seem to be an issue for most people.

I've owned both and personally would buy the M10 if I had a choice, but would not at all be unhappy with the R-05 if thats all that was available. 

[andy_landy]

M10 has better battery life.  Unbelievable battery life really.  Like 20 hours on a pair of AAs.  Its nuts.

this.

i've worked my way through a series of recorders over the years, and let's just say that if my m10 ever dies i shall be replacing it with another.

[willndmb]

Thanks guys for the fast reply.The only problem I have is those small SD/memory sticks  cards that the Sony uses.I was never a fan

keep in mind the sony has 4gb built in, you could never deal with the cards in need be

[ScoobieKW]

Thanks guys for the fast reply.The only problem I have is those small SD/memory sticks  cards that the Sony uses.I was never a fan

keep in mind the sony has 4gb built in, you could never deal with the cards in need be

And if you really don't like the microSD cards, get a 32GB card, put it in the recorder and leave it. It's a slower than a card reader, but you can do your transfers via USB.

[bombdiggity]

Sorry to ask the same boring questions on recorders.LOL.....

Thanks guys for the fast reply.The only problem I have is those small SD/memory sticks  cards that the Sony uses.I was never a fan of them.

Whats wrong with the  R-05 .Why is the Sony better.

Thanks again.

I've owned both.  My R-05 failed (one channel of the line in is now bad) after what I deem to be not a tremendous amount of use, and all gentle as far as I can tell. 

The M-10 is more solid (though the cover for the card slot is not great, though neither is the R-05's).  The card slot/system is the only complaint I have with the M-10.  I don't really like the micro SD cards either (and use regular SD cards in all my other devices), so had to get a pair of those. 

It has 4 GB of internal memory, though I prefer to use cards. 

Adjusting the levels is much easier.  The wheel is great (the R-05 has buttons that go 1 increment at a time through its scale and I was never convinced that changing levels while recording didn't leave a slight noise artifact).  That is smooth as silk with the M-10 and much easier to control. 

The level readout is better and easier to operate effectively with. 

The limiter is better. 

The battery life is longer. 

IMO the recorded quality is slightly better (esp. mic in).  I'm not sure most would notice but I think there is a (minor) improvement. 

The Sony internal mics are likely better as well, though that is often not a concern. 

The R-05 is one of the better recorders but not as good yet still at almost the same price point. 

[Sloan Simpson]

I never once removed the card from my M10 after installing it the first time. It's easy enough to transfer over USB and not have to fumble with the slot.

[Ultfris101]

The wifi features on the new Tascam decks make them worth watching, but since they are brand new there's no way to yet know how they perform in the field. There are certainly situations where I have a compact rig sitting on stage or otherwise in a place it's inconvenient or obtrusive on the performance to get in and double check everything so a remote interface would be nice.

I just really like knowing that with the M10 I can record a really long time on a set of Ni-Mh rechargeables without worry. Coupled with my Schoeps active rig/tinybox I can run well over 12 hours without intervention if I had to. So while I may not be able to check levels I do have high confidence in the reliability so I can wait a long time if necessary to retrieve gear.

The gain wheel is nice too. you can lock transport functions and still make level adjustments if you need to, but these days I know the performance of my gear enough I can generally leave it on 3 and handle most environments.

The microSDs are a minor issue. No major problems for me other than they are so darn small they can easily get lost.

[wppcproductions]

Wow .Thanks guys.I do like the features on the Sony.Love hearing about the long battery life.I forgot about the 4gb internal memory.I downloaded the manual on it and study it later today.

OK .How does  the internal mics in the Sony handle loud shows.The R-09HR's mics  suck as I experienced clipping at loud shows as I did not have my external mics on hand.

[yltfan]

I own both the M10 and R-05 and prefer the R-05, mostly because of the gain wheel. Also, I seem to screw up every time using the M10, but that's all me...

[Scooter123]

I liked the M-10 so much I bought a second one.

[wppcproductions]

OK thanks .I see the gain wheel could be a issue .I read on here  some guys had  some issues on the gain wheel getting moved in pockets .Can the  gain wheel get taped up after the settings are done.I Always tape the switches on my recorders.

[nulldogmas]

OK thanks .I see the gain wheel could be a issue .I read on here  some guys had  some issues on the gain wheel getting moved in pockets .Can the  gain wheel get taped up after the settings are done.I Always tape the switches on my recorders.

For what it's worth, I've had my M10 for six months, and have yet to have any issues with the gain wheel turning unexpectedly. And I pretty much always keep the recorder in a pocket.

[earmonger]

The M10 with external mics just rocks the universe. The internal mics cannot handle MEGABASS! but mic-->batterybox-->Line In will do you proud.

[bluesnut49]

OK thanks .I see the gain wheel could be a issue .I read on here  some guys had  some issues on the gain wheel getting moved in pockets .Can the  gain wheel get taped up after the settings are done.I Always tape the switches on my recorders.

For what it's worth, I've had my M10 for six months, and have yet to have any issues with the gain wheel turning unexpectedly. And I pretty much always keep the recorder in a pocket.

I tape down the gain wheel on my M 10 with a couple narrow strips of gaffers tape to be sure it stays put.

[stevetoney]

I also recently had an R-05 fail completely.  Was recording all day long and in the 8 or 9th hour of recording, it locked up solid and then after taking the batteries out and messing around with it, it won't even power on.  It wasn't a hot day and the recorder was sitting inside my bag.  It had less than 40 hours of recording time on it.  I'm pretty sure it would still be under warranty, but I never registered it and I don't have the original sales receipt anymore.  Oh well.  I bought an M10 to replace it.

[stevetoney]

I tape down the gain wheel on my M 10 with a couple narrow strips of gaffers tape to be sure it stays put.

If you have a gain wheel, you're not talking about a Sony M10.

[vanark]

I tape down the gain wheel on my M 10 with a couple narrow strips of gaffers tape to be sure it stays put.

If you have a gain wheel, you're not talking about a Sony M10.

Ummm, What?  The gain adjustment for the recording level on the M10 is most certainly a rotating wheel.

[stevetoney]

Sorry my bad.     I was thinking the FF and REW controlled the gain.  Duh.

[Marshall7]

Sorry my bad.     I was thinking the FF and REW controlled the gain.  Duh.

That would make for some interesting recordings, Steve.

[stevetoney]

Sorry my bad.     I was thinking the FF and REW controlled the gain.  Duh.

That would make for some interesting recordings, Steve.

My 'problem' is that I have too many recorders.  I mean, that's a good problem to have because I've recorded three stages at a couple of festivals this year and it's always nice to have backups, but you have to refresh your memory on the details whenever you bring one out that you haven't used in awhile.  The R-05 has up down buttons that control the gain and of course you use the FF and REW buttons on the M10 for natigation.  But yeah, I'd need to push pretty hard on the FF to raise the gain on the M10. 

[wppcproductions]

I just ordered the M10.I have no problem with taping everything down as I done it with all of my equipment.
One thing that scares me is that delete button  on the front panel.They could of just put it in the menu like the R-09HR.I would like to disable it.

I figure the internal mics could not handle the loud music.

The other thing I'll miss is the file repair feature from the 09HR.I had to use it a couple of times.

Thanks again for all the tips guys.

[2manyrocks]

It doesn't delete in one step.  It will ask you to confirm the delete, yes / no, and then you have to confirm yes. 

[Gene Poole]

I like that the M10 has a gain wheel, but I don't like that it doesn't have two.  I also don't like that it has no means for balanced input.  I guess it's fine for stealthing, but as a main all-purpose rig, it leaves a lot to be desired.

I've been in the market for something to replace my DAT (Sony PCM-M1) and I've not liked much I've seen so far except the Tascam DR-100MKII.

[wppcproductions]

It doesn't delete in one step.  It will ask you to confirm the delete, yes / no, and then you have to confirm yes.

Ok.Thats what I figured like most digital devices.

[wppcproductions]

I like that the M10 has a gain wheel, but I don't like that it doesn't have two.  I also don't like that it has no means for balanced input.  I guess it's fine for stealthing, but as a main all-purpose rig, it leaves a lot to be desired.

I've been in the market for something to replace my DAT (Sony PCM-M1) and I've not liked much I've seen so far except the Tascam DR-100MKII.

I agree  on the double wheeled setup.I've been in a few occasions with lopsided levels.

[harmon712]

I went with Marantz PMD620 MKII because I thought I read the M10 uses smaller SD cards and I already have SD cards to use.

[Marshall7]

I went with Marantz PMD620 MKII because I thought I read the M10 uses smaller SD cards and I already have SD cards to use.

So you paid twice as much for a recorder (based on what B&H is charging), rather than spend a few bucks for a small SD card? 

[wppcproductions]

I received my M10 yesterday quick like from B&H..Wow there is alot of goodies in it.I have it on burn in since yesterday afternoon.I 'll work the crap out of it before I do a show the end of the month.If I like it that much.I'll probably get another one  for a backup and retire the R-09HR  to just to do  recording off the radio and transferring tapes.I noticed the display on the R-09HR  sometimes has vertical lines on it so It looks like the display will crap out.I've read on here that some guys had problems with the displays crapping out.I will let you all know how I make out with it after the show.

Thanks again with the help guys.

[ScoobieKW]

I received my M10 yesterday quick like from B&H..Wow there is alot of goodies in it.I have it on burn in since yesterday afternoon.I 'll work the crap out of it before I do a show the end of the month.If I like it that much.I'll probably get another one  for a backup and retire the R-09HR  to just to do  recording off the radio and transferring tapes.I noticed the display on the R-09HR  sometimes has vertical lines on it so It looks like the display will crap out.I've read on here that some guys had problems with the displays crapping out.I will let you all know how I make out with it after the show.

Thanks again with the help guys.

I'll summarize the M10 quick config notes.
1. Turn on cross memory recording. If your card fills you have 4 gig more space with a seamless transition
2. Make Card Default
3. Turn Auto Gain Control off, then gaff tape the switch
4. Sensitivy switch to low, then gaff tape switch in position
5. Limiter on. Don't plan on using it, put it's better than a pure clip
6. Set battery type to match your AAs

Most are using this at 48K/24bit, i concur.

[wppcproductions]

Thanks for the tips Scoobie.This will save me from starting another post on "What the  M10 settings should be" thread.   I will make  note of the adjustments in my head and writing.

Skip.

[wppcproductions]

OK guys.The test is in.The show was a stealth setting.

The M10 worked great  and sounds with no issues at all.The battery is still full today. Since I'm on a budget .I cant afford some Schoeps AKG  at the moment.The mike I used is Sony ECM MS907.I had the Edirol R-09HR running aside using another ECM MS907 and had no problem with that rig.

The M10 settings were. 

Gain knob was at 3  and taped .the other setting were set as Scoobie mentioned earlier.Other outboard switches were taped.

The Edirol  level was set around 30 and the back switches were off and taped .

The batteries used were Duracell 2400mAh  rechargeable's.

Thanks for the tips guys  and I got a wonderful recording.

[earmonger]

OK, but start saving your pennies and get a better mic. The PCM-M10 will sound pretty much as good as the mic.

While that Sony mic is...ok, I guess...and good for loud music because it is low sensitivity...it doesn't have a lot of highs or lows. Its frequency response is 100-15,000 and your ears' frequency response is 20-20,000 Hz. Up there at the top, between 15K and 20K, is not that much unless you're a dog. But every doubling of Hz is another octave of music. The lowest note on the piano is 27.5 Hz, next octave up is 55 Hz, next is 110. So you are missing almost two whole octaves of bass with the cutoff at 100. And at shows, when your ribcage is vibrating in that fun way, they are probably using subwoofers to go even lower.

If you listen carefully to the bass lines in the bands you record, you may hear that they jump around a lot--that's because the mic is recording the overtone of the lowest notes, an octave higher than what the bassist is playing--not the more coherent bass line actually being played. And you know how the drummer is kicking that big round thing? You might want to hear that too.

Get a better mic and a battery box and go into Line-in on the lovely PCM-M10. Church Audio CA-11 or CA-14 and CA-Ugly Battery box, or if you want it sooner and cheaper (though not quite as wonderful sounding), Sound Professionals BMC-2 (smaller than Church Audio) and one of their battery boxes. Forget bass rolloff or fancy stuff--the PCM-M10 can handle bass through Line-in. Mic-Battery Box-Line-in.

Upgrade-itis is a chronic and incurable disease, but just a little mic upgrade will bring you a lot of joy.

[wppcproductions]

OK, but start saving your pennies and get a better mic. The PCM-M10 will sound pretty much as good as the mic.

While that Sony mic is...ok, I guess...and good for loud music because it is low sensitivity...it doesn't have a lot of highs or lows. Its frequency response is 100-15,000 and your ears' frequency response is 20-20,000 Hz. Up there at the top, between 15K and 20K, is not that much unless you're a dog. But every doubling of Hz is another octave of music. The lowest note on the piano is 27.5 Hz, next octave up is 55 Hz, next is 110. So you are missing almost two whole octaves of bass with the cutoff at 100. And at shows, when your ribcage is vibrating in that fun way, they are probably using subwoofers to go even lower.

If you listen carefully to the bass lines in the bands you record, you may hear that they jump around a lot--that's because the mic is recording the overtone of the lowest notes, an octave higher than what the bassist is playing--not the more coherent bass line actually being played. And you know how the drummer is kicking that big round thing? You might want to hear that too.

Get a better mic and a battery box and go into Line-in on the lovely PCM-M10. Church Audio CA-11 or CA-14 and CA-Ugly Battery box, or if you want it sooner and cheaper (though not quite as wonderful sounding), Sound Professionals BMC-2 (smaller than Church Audio) and one of their battery boxes. Forget bass rolloff or fancy stuff--the PCM-M10 can handle bass through Line-in. Mic-Battery Box-Line-in.

Upgrade-itis is a chronic and incurable disease, but just a little mic upgrade will bring you a lot of joy.

Thanks.I agree 100  percent.I will do a mike upgrade probably with the Church Audio mikes very soon.I will check out the Sound Professionals too.

[nulldogmas]

Thanks.I agree 100  percent.I will do a mike upgrade probably with the Church Audio mikes very soon.I will check out the Sound Professionals too.

Chris Church still has two CA-14 cards+ugly battery box packages available for $125 in his November sale if you act now. And they're actually built already, so no long waits:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=169016.0;all

[RAQnasty]

can anyone comment on the M10 as compared to the Edirol r09-HR in terms of the line-in - relative to the r09-HR, how good is the M10 at handling a hot signal?

In general, what is the best way to know what signal strength will be too hot for a recorder?

My r09-HR is running fine, but the display is dying... I need to find a replacement.  I had a Zoom h4N for about 1 month, but already sold it - was not a big fan.

I am tempted to grab another edirol (if I can find it), but maybe I should consider the M10.

[bombdiggity]

Having had an R-05 for some time (until the line in started dropping out on one channel) I'd say the M-10 has better metering and is a lot easier to adjust.  The limiter is much better.  Better circuitry and lower noise levels than the R-09 (per the tests, though the specs for the R-05 were supposed to be close line in).  IMO the M-10 is better in all regards and should prove more durable.   

[RAQnasty]

Thanks for the info, can you tell the negatives of the M10 in your experience?
Also does the M10 ever have file writing issues? E.g if batteries die, etc

I have actually liked the r09-HR for the 5+ years ive had it, shame the LCD is going...

[Marshall7]

I'd say the M-10 has better metering 

I would dispute that.  The metering on the R-09HR is a lot bigger and easier to see than on the M-10.

[yates7592]

For my 0.02c, the M-10 takes a hotter signal than either R-09HR or R-05, and doesn't brickwall as easy as those recorders either.

[RAQnasty]

For my 0.02c, the M-10 takes a hotter signal than either R-09HR or R-05, and doesn't brickwall as easy as those recorders either.

Is there anything the spec sheet that can quantify thus fir a recorder or can you only really see this from experience using a specific recorder?

[yates7592]

For my 0.02c, the M-10 takes a hotter signal than either R-09HR or R-05, and doesn't brickwall as easy as those recorders either.

Is there anything the spec sheet that can quantify thus fir a recorder or can you only really see this from experience using a specific recorder?

I don't have the links to hand, but GuySonic did some tests on the M10 and found that the "level thou shalt not go below" setting (i.e. the levels at which you are still getting accurate peaks on the display, not peaks showing at -6dB but actually a distorted recording), was very low on the M10 (about 1-1.5 out of 10), whereas it is more like 20-ish out of 80 on the R09-HR. So the M10 is more forgiving in that regard. On the spec sheets, nominal input level on M10 is +8dBu whereas R09HR is +2dBu. I think the max input levels might be very similar actually (Guysonic rated M10 max imput level at >+24dBu). The R05 takes quite a bit less hot signal than the R09HR (according to the spec sheets at least, but not many people seem to have trouble using it to be fair).

[RAQnasty]

Thanks for all the good info... M10 is starting to sound like the way to go.  I like the r09-HR and if it werent discontinued id prob just get another due to the comfort level i have with it

[wppcproductions]

Thanks for the info guys.I use the mp3 setting for memo recording and  recording radio shows and radio airchecking.I notice the R 09HR has a better codec system on the lower bitrate .The 128kbps bitrate sounds ok on the M10.

As RAQnasty mentioned .My display on the Edirol sometimes have lines on it.Thats the only downfall on the Edirol.They should of went to the LCD design instead of the OLED.I can see peoples big TVs with OLED technology crapping out in a couple years of use.

[RAQnasty]

youre right - i should have been more careful - the Edirol uses an organic LED, not a LCD.  I first noticed the lines in the spring/summer of this year.  They seem to be getting progressively worse... and I am figuring I only have 3-6 months before the display is completely unreadable...

this also means any second-market units are a ticking time bomb on the OLED

[bombdiggity]

I'd say the M-10 has better metering 

I would dispute that.  The metering on the R-09HR is a lot bigger and easier to see than on the M-10.

My comparison above was to the R-05, specifically "Having had an R-05 for some time I'd say the M-10 has better metering and is a lot easier to adjust".  I have no experience with the R-09HR... 

The M-10 has idiot lights as well (-12 green and before 0 red), so one doesn't need to read the display.  I was of mixed opinion on that at first but given my old eyes I've come to like that aspect.  Blip the green at least occasionally and you're golden...  Running conservative if you see a red flash dial it down slightly.  You probably didn't clip there but you might if you leave it untended. 

I didn't add that the battery life seems better (m-10 vs. R-05) as well though both run nearly forever on a pair of AA's.