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Author Topic: Extreme Bass  (Read 1116 times)

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Offline Cheesecadet

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Extreme Bass
« on: June 23, 2017, 12:46:20 PM »
Was at a show last night way FOB and the bass was insanely loud…chest thumping loud all night long.  I don’t know how the people around me could even listen without earplugs.  Totally crazy. 

I was running the DPA4061s and am curious what the best way to reduce the bass and bring the overall volume of the whole show up.  It just has that low distant sound because the bass frequencies took over everything. 

I have toyed around with EQ a bit and rolled off everything below 45hz and then amplified the whole show and it definitely sounds better, but I am wondering if there are any experts out there that may have some better suggestions.  Trying not to raise the noise floor too much.  I am using Adobe Audition CS6 as my DAW if that matters.

Thanks!
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Offline Craig T

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2017, 02:24:21 PM »
dynamic EQ would probably help
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2017, 02:59:56 PM »
I like filters better than eq for this sort of thing.  Audition's FFT filter is really useful.
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Offline Craig T

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2017, 03:14:39 PM »
I like filters better than eq for this sort of thing.  Audition's FFT filter is really useful.

I believe Audition's FFT is an EQ tool.

http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2015/8/10/izotope-explain-what-dynamic-eq-is-and-how-to-use-it
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Offline Sloan Simpson

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2017, 04:17:48 PM »
Multi band compressor
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2017, 05:10:25 PM »
I like filters better than eq for this sort of thing.  Audition's FFT filter is really useful.

I believe Audition's FFT is an EQ tool.

http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2015/8/10/izotope-explain-what-dynamic-eq-is-and-how-to-use-it

Well technically but it is a bit easier to be precise with and seems to give better results IME. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2017, 05:54:34 PM »
High pass, shelf, and peak are all filters, just different shapes.

I generally prefer minimum-phase parametric filters (standard parametric EQ) to fine tune the curve for correcting low frequency problems by ear.  High-pass/low-cut (same thing) filters are way too blunt an instrument for me.

But with extreme bass and the DPA omnis which have flat sensitivity to way down low and soak it all up, I've found things can get weird with the necessary EQ corrections required to clean up the recordings for normal playback.  I've not analyzed that deeply as I don't record in those situations very frequently, but I suspect the issue may be the large phase shifts introduced by minimum-phase filters making such high magnitude corrections.

I suspect a linear-phase EQ filter may work better.  Indeed FFT filters are linear phase as I understand it.

Manipulation of the dynamics may also help. But I suspect EQ will be your first line of attack.  Multi-band compression is essentially dynamic EQ, with each band roughly corresponding to a wide graphic EQ channel.
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Offline Cheesecadet

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2017, 07:06:42 PM »
That helps. I find when I use hi pass filter it cuts levels by like 20db then I have to add gain back which raises noise floor to crappy levels (mainly during quiet parts)

Maybe those are just my presets tho?
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Offline nassau73

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2017, 07:18:10 PM »
This isn't a direct answer to the original question but this you tube video gives an idea of all the possibilities (combining filters, eq, etc.)

In Audition, you can launch the mastering rack and stack up your different effects to see how they play against each other.

Anyway:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjqIqv6lsz4

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2017, 07:25:59 PM »
A dynamic linear-phase EQ may be an ideal tool for this.  No excess bass reduction during banter and the ambient stuff between tunes, but once the subs crank up the dynamic EQ squashes the excess bass back down to something far more manageable.  Then you can raise overall levels and not get as much hiss during quiet parts, partly because you are not cutting and then boosting, and partly because the quiet parts would be better EQ balanced and less EQ tilted towards the HF.
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Offline djphrayz

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2017, 07:50:55 PM »
Was this bass music (loosely defined genre of EDM)?  If so and you are distributing this music to fans of the genre, you may want to keep that in mind...

That being said, I wish to thank Mr. Bucket for his insightful contributions to this and every thread in which he participates.  His generosity with knowledge are a real blessing to TS, and I have learned a lot from him.  Thank you, sir!
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Offline Cheesecadet

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2017, 07:53:56 PM »
Was this bass music (loosely defined genre of EDM)?  If so and you are distributing this music to fans of the genre, you may want to keep that in mind...

That being said, I wish to thank Mr. Bucket for his insightful contributions to this and every thread in which he participates.  His generosity with knowledge are a real blessing to TS, and I have learned a lot from him.  Thank you, sir!

No not EDM, was the band Blue October seen them many times and this bass was absolutely insane...way louder than any other show I had ever seen.  Excrutiating actually...glad I had plugs but felt sorry for those around me who were cringing.
AKG481's > Hi Hos > Naiant MPD-12 > Shure FP24 > Schoeps SCH-501 1/8" > Sony PCM-M10
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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2017, 07:54:43 PM »
A dynamic linear-phase EQ may be an ideal tool for this.  No excess bass reduction during banter and the ambient stuff between tunes, but once the subs crank up the dynamic EQ squashes the excess bass back down to something far more manageable.  Then you can raise overall levels and not get as much hiss during quiet parts, partly because you are not cutting and then boosting, and partly because the quiet parts would be better EQ balanced and less EQ tilted towards the HF.

Is linear EQ something that can be done to the whole show at once or do I have to drill into the show at various parts manually.  Never really had to play around with that before.
AKG481's > Hi Hos > Naiant MPD-12 > Shure FP24 > Schoeps SCH-501 1/8" > Sony PCM-M10
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2017, 08:09:44 PM »
Yeah, you apply it just like regular EQ.  Some EQ plugins have both minimum-phase and linear-phase modes.  Some are just one or the other.  The dynamic EQ thing just engages the EQ filters based on threshold detection and applies it by degree like a compressor (it's basically frequency restricted compression).  The dynamic thing would just keep the non bass laden parts more natural sounding without excess bass reduction and without automation of the EQ, but that's gravy.

I'd try Audition's built in FFT filter like 'digitty mentions and see if that gets it under control.
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Offline Cheesecadet

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2017, 08:51:40 PM »
So this is what the FFT box looks like...kinda lost???
AKG481's > Hi Hos > Naiant MPD-12 > Shure FP24 > Schoeps SCH-501 1/8" > Sony PCM-M10
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2017, 11:54:08 PM »
This is a newer version than mine but go into the part that looks like a graph. 

Click a few points on the line then start pulling the left (lowest frequency) side of the line down.  You can essentially set differential levels of reduction by manipulating the line.  You can carve out very precise frequencies with large numbers of points or set a gentle curve or a curve that varies greatly from point to point. 

The left to right axis is low to high frequency (the scale is in Hz).  The top to bottom axis is relative level (the scale is in dB). 

There are also some presets that may give some idea of basic approaches. 

If you look at a frequency graph of the raw recording you may see what the initial landscape is and where you need to deemphasize. 

Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2017, 03:03:08 PM »
Multi band compressor
screw EQ, try Sloan's advice.
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Offline Cheesecadet

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2017, 10:59:42 AM »
Went with the MB Compresor and am happy enough with the results.  It was a tough one to do anything with really, so at lieast it is listenable.  Thanks for the tips everyone!
AKG481's > Hi Hos > Naiant MPD-12 > Shure FP24 > Schoeps SCH-501 1/8" > Sony PCM-M10
DPA 4061's | AT853's (SC, C, O) | Tinybox | PIPsqueak | Darktrain/GAK | Audition CS6 | iZotope

10/25 Magic Beans
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11/03 Frank Potenza Trio
11/09 African Guitar Summit
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2017, 11:27:23 AM »
Cool.  How many bands and what crossover points between them?

As mentioned, using a multiband compressor you are basically dynamically EQing using an EQ with the same number of bands as the compressor.  Since most multiband compressors typically use 3 to 5 bands, that's essentially like a 3 or 5 band EQ, but with the gain of each band dynamically controlled.

The Voxengo Soniformer is an interesting and unique tool I use which is essentially an extreme multi-band compressor which splits the frequency spectrum into 32 bands and controls each separately before recombining them.  With so many bands, it uses a different curve based interface to keep settings under control, essentially helping one to use smoother EQ compression curves across all bands even through each band is acting in isolation, limiting settings with greatly varying (and often more problematic dissonant) band to band differences.  I find it very useful for problematic live recordings, and also for subtle low-level detail enhancement similar to parallel-compression, but it does takes a bit of time to get familiar with and figure out the interface- http://www.voxengo.com/product/soniformer/
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Offline Cheesecadet

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2017, 05:36:13 PM »
I used the iZotooe MB Compressor in Audition CS6.  Not sure about crossover points but you are able to slide the the bands wider and narrower and check individual solos etc and then export what you like.  Pretty cool features actually.  There were 4 sections that you could manipulate if I remember correctly.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 12:20:17 AM by Cheesecadet »
AKG481's > Hi Hos > Naiant MPD-12 > Shure FP24 > Schoeps SCH-501 1/8" > Sony PCM-M10
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2017, 10:42:14 PM »
Multi band compressor

I have usually used WaveLab's MultiBand Compressor as well the last 10-15 years to remove extreme lowend or highend! Works good enough for me and can really transform a bad recording, to something totally listenable IMO!

I'm sure there might be better ways to do that with filters or EQ, but the MBC in WL6 does a great job for me, and usually helps me quickly dial in what sounds best, since WL has REAL-TIME editing :)

LMK if anyone wants a Trial Version of WL6 to play around with & I hope you find something that works out for you and improves your recording :)
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Offline Scooter123

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Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2017, 11:56:00 PM »
I use High Pass
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Scooter123

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