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Author Topic: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats  (Read 8231 times)

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Offline taperdav

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Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« on: July 19, 2017, 09:54:40 PM »
Hi  - I am new to this forum and new to taping with an Edirol R-09.  I taped a big outdoor concert in June using it's internal mics.  I was in the middle of the stage about 25 yards back from the stage.  I had the recorder about head height. I had the recording levels low (thinking around 17) so that they did not clip, however, when listening to the recording, there is distortion with heavy bass drum beats and maybe with the heavy bass guitar.  The back of my recorder is set as:

Limiter/ AGC off / on : Off
Ext Mic Type:  Stereo
Low cut off / on : On
Mic Gain L H : Low

I remember that I felt the bass drum myself (stage / drum riser was at a level of about audience head height or higher) - you sort of felt it in your chest.

Any thoughts on what I did wrong or what setting I might not have correct - overall the recording is fine, but the bass drum sounds distorted even though the sound levels are not close to being distorted.

Any thoughts on ways I can edit the recording to fix some of the bass distortion (I'd use Audacity).

Again, I am a newbie here and in recording with an Edirol R-09, and am not that technical.

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer!!!

Offline heathen

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2017, 10:48:52 PM »
It could be that the internal mics just could not handle that particular situation. Most people on here will recommend you get external mics. Is that a viable option for you?
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Offline Scooter123

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2017, 01:29:35 AM »
The disadvantage of internal mikes is that they are made to record nice quiet shows close in. 

Subject them to loud rock music and they will clip. 

In order to stop that clipping, most folks use external mikes with a battery box to supply the mikes with dc power which reduces that sonic pressure on the mikes. 
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Offline Moke

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2017, 10:10:57 AM »
The internal mics are intended for convenience in ENG, capturing rehearsals, catching that guitar riff that you're working out, speech, broadcast. They are not intended for quiet shows or loud music in any way. They are perfect for what they are intended for.
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Offline morst

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2017, 04:46:55 PM »
I had the recording levels low (thinking around 17) so that they did not clip, however, when listening to the recording, there is distortion with heavy bass drum beats and maybe with the heavy bass guitar.

(snip)
I remember that I felt the bass drum myself (stage / drum riser was at a level of about audience head height or higher) - you sort of felt it in your chest.

Any thoughts on what I did wrong or what setting I might not have correct - overall the recording is fine, but the bass drum sounds distorted even though the sound levels are not close to being distorted.

Any thoughts on ways I can edit the recording to fix some of the bass distortion (I'd use Audacity).

You've probably got what is often called "brickwall" distortion at some stage of either the electronics in the machine, or the physical maximum excursion of the mic diaphragms.

Not much can be done in post.  :-\

If you are faced with similar circumstances in the future, go to where the bass is not as intense.
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Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2017, 07:05:25 PM »
Any thoughts on what I did wrong...


In a nutshell, you used internal mics at a concert.  As it has been pointed out above, they are not meant for such applications.  Use them for voice recordings and hearing a song that you're practicing in your bedroom.  There are economical options for small mics with a small pre-amp that you will get good results with.  If you choose to take recording live music seriously, the sky's the limit (but your wallet may not be).  By the way. if you prefer to continue recording live music with the R-09's internal mics, set you levels to peak at -6db and turn your limiter on.  At those levels, the limiter shouldn't engage, unless you have a moron nearby who wants the band to hear him so much that he will be as loud as possible.  It's OK for the limiter to do its job in that instance. Low cut, off...mic sensitivity, low.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
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Offline taperdav

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2017, 07:50:15 PM »
Thank you for all of the above responses - these are helpful.  I did not realize the internal mics would not handle a loud concert as such.

To address a couple questions - I used the internal mics because I was not confident that I could get the battery box (sound professionals - size of a box of matches, but a decent sized small A23 battery) in.  A few years ago I did get it in with the Edirol R-09 and using SP -BMC-2 mics (yes, "B") I ran into the same issue (distortion with the bass drum - half way back at an indoors concert/hockey arena) with the same settings as above.  When this happened, I was guessing that the BMC-2 mics may not be good enough for loud shows, so I forewent them in favor of trying the internal mics at this recent show (I have seen concerts posted on Dime where folks used just the internal mics - realizing that quality is not as good as external mics).  So, would anyone know if SP-BMC-2 mics are also an issue for loud concerts?  Would you feel if I went to a bit higher priced mics with the sound professionals battery box I'd get better results.  My other question, which I am sure can't be answered here is am I over concerned with getting the battery box in.

Appreciate any further help.  And I do appreciate all the help provided so far. 

Thanks!!!

Offline heathen

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2017, 07:57:03 PM »

As to whether you can get the battery box in, that all depends on the level of security.  Remember though: where there's a will there's a way.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2017, 08:40:17 PM »
Thank you for all of the above responses - these are helpful.  I did not realize the internal mics would not handle a loud concert as such.

To address a couple questions - I used the internal mics because I was not confident that I could get the battery box (sound professionals - size of a box of matches, but a decent sized small A23 battery) in.  A few years ago I did get it in with the Edirol R-09 and using SP -BMC-2 mics (yes, "B") I ran into the same issue (distortion with the bass drum - half way back at an indoors concert/hockey arena) with the same settings as above.  When this happened, I was guessing that the BMC-2 mics may not be good enough for loud shows, so I forewent them in favor of trying the internal mics at this recent show (I have seen concerts posted on Dime where folks used just the internal mics - realizing that quality is not as good as external mics).  So, would anyone know if SP-BMC-2 mics are also an issue for loud concerts?  Would you feel if I went to a bit higher priced mics with the sound professionals battery box I'd get better results.  My other question, which I am sure can't be answered here is am I over concerned with getting the battery box in.

Appreciate any further help.  And I do appreciate all the help provided so far. 

Thanks!!!

Better mics will yield better results all things being equal.  Getting gear in to all but the most difficult venues is not that difficult.  Even the most difficult venues are doable with a pair of mics, battery box or pre-amp and recorder.  Just need to be creative.

Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2017, 11:16:46 PM »
I have tried a lot of small mics before landing with the CA-14's.  I like them for the simple reasons that they are cardiods and they don't distort.  Can bass still distort them?  Of course.  Bass, under the right (or wrong!) circumstances, can distort any microphone.  The venue also has a lot to do with it, as the "boom" can ruin an otherwise clean recording.  One thing that was important to me with my stealth set-up, was that the pre was made of plastic and that it was small.  The Church Audio 9200 offers both of those things with a gain to boot.  It hasn't set off a metal detector yet, and the mics can actually be worn going through the security check.  I find them to be the best for my stealth needs.  Are they as good as a full size pair of expensive (for lack of a better word) microphones? No, but they do make a nice clean recording.  Seek them out on posting sites and give them a listen, paying attention to the venue and recording location.  Then do the same with other mics that fit your needs.  Although the R-09 is a good recorder, is it possible there is something wrong with it?  Test it out under different conditions and find out.  I've used one for awhile and thought it was a good machine (just too small of a screen for me).  I like the R-09HR myself (but it has a bigger screen and a few improvements over its predecessor).  The internals on both are great...if you're recording yourself playing a guitar in your bedroom, and if the stars align, in a live acoustic setting, or not too loud of a concert, but the low end suffers dearly.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
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Online fmaderjr

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2017, 06:40:43 PM »
Although the R-09 is a good recorder, is it possible there is something wrong with it?  Test it out under different conditions and find out.  I've used one for awhile and thought it was a good machine (just too small of a screen for me).  I like the R-09HR myself (but it has a bigger screen and a few improvements over its predecessor).  The internals on both are great...if you're recording yourself playing a guitar in your bedroom, and if the stars align, in a live acoustic setting, or not too loud of a concert, but the low end suffers dearly.

I respectfully disagree as to the R09. I found the R09HR's internals to be decent, although I only used them for a test recording. I made a test recording with my R09, on the other hand, and was disappointed with the results (even though the band was not too loud and there was no distortion). The recording sounded very "thin" to me. I think that's why Chris Church offered to replace the R09's internals with CA-11's (I had it done-they sounded great and would never distort).  He didn't offer that option with the  HR both because he said it was a harder job to replace them but also because he thought the HR's internals sounded better and replacing them wouldn't improve the sound as much.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2017, 06:59:46 PM »
Although the R-09 is a good recorder, is it possible there is something wrong with it?  Test it out under different conditions and find out.  I've used one for awhile and thought it was a good machine (just too small of a screen for me).  I like the R-09HR myself (but it has a bigger screen and a few improvements over its predecessor).  The internals on both are great...if you're recording yourself playing a guitar in your bedroom, and if the stars align, in a live acoustic setting, or not too loud of a concert, but the low end suffers dearly.

I respectfully disagree as to the R09. I found the R09HR's internals to be decent, although I only used them for a test recording. I made a test recording with my R09, on the other hand, and was disappointed with the results (even though the band was not too loud and there was no distortion). The recording sounded very "thin" to me. I think that's why Chris Church offered to replace the R09's internals with CA-11's (I had it done-they sounded great and would never distort).  He didn't offer that option with the  HR both because he said it was a harder job to replace them but also because he thought the HR's internals sounded better and replacing them wouldn't improve the sound as much.

You had CA-11's replacing the internals in your R09?   If so, why?

Online fmaderjr

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2017, 09:31:58 PM »
You had CA-11's replacing the internals in your R09?   If so, why?

Chris Church offered it when the R09 first came out. You could record anything with the internal mics that you could record with CA-11's and a battery box. Never any distortion and it sounded the same. Only downside was that you couldn't position the mics.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2017, 09:56:23 PM »
You had CA-11's replacing the internals in your R09?   If so, why?

Chris Church offered it when the R09 first came out. You could record anything with the internal mics that you could record with CA-11's and a battery box. Never any distortion and it sounded the same. Only downside was that you couldn't position the mics.

big downside imho.

Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2017, 06:58:54 AM »
the internal mics in the R-09 are the worst I've ever used.

the internals on the Tascam DR-2D are nearly as good as external mics, regardless of what the elitists here say.

I have posted many examples, they handle both quiet and loud music *just fine*, as long as you use the lo/med/high gain correctly.


a DR-2D costs a *fraction* of what mics would cost, and will get you a recording 90-95% as good as an external mic setup.

I'll record more proof this weekend, by doing folk rock (Tim Easton), rock (Ben Harper) and metal (36 Crazyfists).


while those who recommend spending money on mics have good intentions, they are dead-ass wrong that they are necessary.
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people who are fans of the music, they LOVE what I document and capture...people who are fans of themselves....not so much.

 

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