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Author Topic: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats  (Read 7826 times)

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Offline taperdav

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Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« on: July 19, 2017, 09:54:40 PM »
Hi  - I am new to this forum and new to taping with an Edirol R-09.  I taped a big outdoor concert in June using it's internal mics.  I was in the middle of the stage about 25 yards back from the stage.  I had the recorder about head height. I had the recording levels low (thinking around 17) so that they did not clip, however, when listening to the recording, there is distortion with heavy bass drum beats and maybe with the heavy bass guitar.  The back of my recorder is set as:

Limiter/ AGC off / on : Off
Ext Mic Type:  Stereo
Low cut off / on : On
Mic Gain L H : Low

I remember that I felt the bass drum myself (stage / drum riser was at a level of about audience head height or higher) - you sort of felt it in your chest.

Any thoughts on what I did wrong or what setting I might not have correct - overall the recording is fine, but the bass drum sounds distorted even though the sound levels are not close to being distorted.

Any thoughts on ways I can edit the recording to fix some of the bass distortion (I'd use Audacity).

Again, I am a newbie here and in recording with an Edirol R-09, and am not that technical.

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer!!!

Online heathen

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2017, 10:48:52 PM »
It could be that the internal mics just could not handle that particular situation. Most people on here will recommend you get external mics. Is that a viable option for you?
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Offline Scooter123

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2017, 01:29:35 AM »
The disadvantage of internal mikes is that they are made to record nice quiet shows close in. 

Subject them to loud rock music and they will clip. 

In order to stop that clipping, most folks use external mikes with a battery box to supply the mikes with dc power which reduces that sonic pressure on the mikes. 
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Offline Moke

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2017, 10:10:57 AM »
The internal mics are intended for convenience in ENG, capturing rehearsals, catching that guitar riff that you're working out, speech, broadcast. They are not intended for quiet shows or loud music in any way. They are perfect for what they are intended for.
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Offline morst

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2017, 04:46:55 PM »
I had the recording levels low (thinking around 17) so that they did not clip, however, when listening to the recording, there is distortion with heavy bass drum beats and maybe with the heavy bass guitar.

(snip)
I remember that I felt the bass drum myself (stage / drum riser was at a level of about audience head height or higher) - you sort of felt it in your chest.

Any thoughts on what I did wrong or what setting I might not have correct - overall the recording is fine, but the bass drum sounds distorted even though the sound levels are not close to being distorted.

Any thoughts on ways I can edit the recording to fix some of the bass distortion (I'd use Audacity).

You've probably got what is often called "brickwall" distortion at some stage of either the electronics in the machine, or the physical maximum excursion of the mic diaphragms.

Not much can be done in post.  :-\

If you are faced with similar circumstances in the future, go to where the bass is not as intense.
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Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2017, 07:05:25 PM »
Any thoughts on what I did wrong...


In a nutshell, you used internal mics at a concert.  As it has been pointed out above, they are not meant for such applications.  Use them for voice recordings and hearing a song that you're practicing in your bedroom.  There are economical options for small mics with a small pre-amp that you will get good results with.  If you choose to take recording live music seriously, the sky's the limit (but your wallet may not be).  By the way. if you prefer to continue recording live music with the R-09's internal mics, set you levels to peak at -6db and turn your limiter on.  At those levels, the limiter shouldn't engage, unless you have a moron nearby who wants the band to hear him so much that he will be as loud as possible.  It's OK for the limiter to do its job in that instance. Low cut, off...mic sensitivity, low.
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Offline taperdav

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2017, 07:50:15 PM »
Thank you for all of the above responses - these are helpful.  I did not realize the internal mics would not handle a loud concert as such.

To address a couple questions - I used the internal mics because I was not confident that I could get the battery box (sound professionals - size of a box of matches, but a decent sized small A23 battery) in.  A few years ago I did get it in with the Edirol R-09 and using SP -BMC-2 mics (yes, "B") I ran into the same issue (distortion with the bass drum - half way back at an indoors concert/hockey arena) with the same settings as above.  When this happened, I was guessing that the BMC-2 mics may not be good enough for loud shows, so I forewent them in favor of trying the internal mics at this recent show (I have seen concerts posted on Dime where folks used just the internal mics - realizing that quality is not as good as external mics).  So, would anyone know if SP-BMC-2 mics are also an issue for loud concerts?  Would you feel if I went to a bit higher priced mics with the sound professionals battery box I'd get better results.  My other question, which I am sure can't be answered here is am I over concerned with getting the battery box in.

Appreciate any further help.  And I do appreciate all the help provided so far. 

Thanks!!!

Online heathen

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2017, 07:57:03 PM »

As to whether you can get the battery box in, that all depends on the level of security.  Remember though: where there's a will there's a way.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2017, 08:40:17 PM »
Thank you for all of the above responses - these are helpful.  I did not realize the internal mics would not handle a loud concert as such.

To address a couple questions - I used the internal mics because I was not confident that I could get the battery box (sound professionals - size of a box of matches, but a decent sized small A23 battery) in.  A few years ago I did get it in with the Edirol R-09 and using SP -BMC-2 mics (yes, "B") I ran into the same issue (distortion with the bass drum - half way back at an indoors concert/hockey arena) with the same settings as above.  When this happened, I was guessing that the BMC-2 mics may not be good enough for loud shows, so I forewent them in favor of trying the internal mics at this recent show (I have seen concerts posted on Dime where folks used just the internal mics - realizing that quality is not as good as external mics).  So, would anyone know if SP-BMC-2 mics are also an issue for loud concerts?  Would you feel if I went to a bit higher priced mics with the sound professionals battery box I'd get better results.  My other question, which I am sure can't be answered here is am I over concerned with getting the battery box in.

Appreciate any further help.  And I do appreciate all the help provided so far. 

Thanks!!!

Better mics will yield better results all things being equal.  Getting gear in to all but the most difficult venues is not that difficult.  Even the most difficult venues are doable with a pair of mics, battery box or pre-amp and recorder.  Just need to be creative.

Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2017, 11:16:46 PM »
I have tried a lot of small mics before landing with the CA-14's.  I like them for the simple reasons that they are cardiods and they don't distort.  Can bass still distort them?  Of course.  Bass, under the right (or wrong!) circumstances, can distort any microphone.  The venue also has a lot to do with it, as the "boom" can ruin an otherwise clean recording.  One thing that was important to me with my stealth set-up, was that the pre was made of plastic and that it was small.  The Church Audio 9200 offers both of those things with a gain to boot.  It hasn't set off a metal detector yet, and the mics can actually be worn going through the security check.  I find them to be the best for my stealth needs.  Are they as good as a full size pair of expensive (for lack of a better word) microphones? No, but they do make a nice clean recording.  Seek them out on posting sites and give them a listen, paying attention to the venue and recording location.  Then do the same with other mics that fit your needs.  Although the R-09 is a good recorder, is it possible there is something wrong with it?  Test it out under different conditions and find out.  I've used one for awhile and thought it was a good machine (just too small of a screen for me).  I like the R-09HR myself (but it has a bigger screen and a few improvements over its predecessor).  The internals on both are great...if you're recording yourself playing a guitar in your bedroom, and if the stars align, in a live acoustic setting, or not too loud of a concert, but the low end suffers dearly.
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Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2017, 06:40:43 PM »
Although the R-09 is a good recorder, is it possible there is something wrong with it?  Test it out under different conditions and find out.  I've used one for awhile and thought it was a good machine (just too small of a screen for me).  I like the R-09HR myself (but it has a bigger screen and a few improvements over its predecessor).  The internals on both are great...if you're recording yourself playing a guitar in your bedroom, and if the stars align, in a live acoustic setting, or not too loud of a concert, but the low end suffers dearly.

I respectfully disagree as to the R09. I found the R09HR's internals to be decent, although I only used them for a test recording. I made a test recording with my R09, on the other hand, and was disappointed with the results (even though the band was not too loud and there was no distortion). The recording sounded very "thin" to me. I think that's why Chris Church offered to replace the R09's internals with CA-11's (I had it done-they sounded great and would never distort).  He didn't offer that option with the  HR both because he said it was a harder job to replace them but also because he thought the HR's internals sounded better and replacing them wouldn't improve the sound as much.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2017, 06:59:46 PM »
Although the R-09 is a good recorder, is it possible there is something wrong with it?  Test it out under different conditions and find out.  I've used one for awhile and thought it was a good machine (just too small of a screen for me).  I like the R-09HR myself (but it has a bigger screen and a few improvements over its predecessor).  The internals on both are great...if you're recording yourself playing a guitar in your bedroom, and if the stars align, in a live acoustic setting, or not too loud of a concert, but the low end suffers dearly.

I respectfully disagree as to the R09. I found the R09HR's internals to be decent, although I only used them for a test recording. I made a test recording with my R09, on the other hand, and was disappointed with the results (even though the band was not too loud and there was no distortion). The recording sounded very "thin" to me. I think that's why Chris Church offered to replace the R09's internals with CA-11's (I had it done-they sounded great and would never distort).  He didn't offer that option with the  HR both because he said it was a harder job to replace them but also because he thought the HR's internals sounded better and replacing them wouldn't improve the sound as much.

You had CA-11's replacing the internals in your R09?   If so, why?

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2017, 09:31:58 PM »
You had CA-11's replacing the internals in your R09?   If so, why?

Chris Church offered it when the R09 first came out. You could record anything with the internal mics that you could record with CA-11's and a battery box. Never any distortion and it sounded the same. Only downside was that you couldn't position the mics.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2017, 09:56:23 PM »
You had CA-11's replacing the internals in your R09?   If so, why?

Chris Church offered it when the R09 first came out. You could record anything with the internal mics that you could record with CA-11's and a battery box. Never any distortion and it sounded the same. Only downside was that you couldn't position the mics.

big downside imho.

Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2017, 06:58:54 AM »
the internal mics in the R-09 are the worst I've ever used.

the internals on the Tascam DR-2D are nearly as good as external mics, regardless of what the elitists here say.

I have posted many examples, they handle both quiet and loud music *just fine*, as long as you use the lo/med/high gain correctly.


a DR-2D costs a *fraction* of what mics would cost, and will get you a recording 90-95% as good as an external mic setup.

I'll record more proof this weekend, by doing folk rock (Tim Easton), rock (Ben Harper) and metal (36 Crazyfists).


while those who recommend spending money on mics have good intentions, they are dead-ass wrong that they are necessary.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2017, 07:00:03 AM »
a handful of "shitty internal microphone" recordings..... :google of rolleye smilies here:



Peter Mulvey w/ Suitcase Junket in Fairbanks: (*lots* of texture and a beautiful sound):

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=595076


Loudon Wainwright III in Nashville (taped from the back of the room, away from the 'geese'):

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=595385


36 Crazyfists (Alaskan metal band, they're big in Europe, showing that heavy music can be recorded with internals as well):

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=579574


Black Mountain (sounds fine to these ears, or 90% as good as any mic-stand recording would sound...again, from the back of the room. no way to get away from the crowd, as Larimer has low ceilings and is tiny):

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=577828


Guided By Voices (tiny dump in St. Louis, the Sonics source came out too "hot"):

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=570603
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Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2017, 09:20:54 AM »
Although the R-09 is a good recorder, is it possible there is something wrong with it?  Test it out under different conditions and find out.  I've used one for awhile and thought it was a good machine (just too small of a screen for me).  I like the R-09HR myself (but it has a bigger screen and a few improvements over its predecessor).  The internals on both are great...if you're recording yourself playing a guitar in your bedroom, and if the stars align, in a live acoustic setting, or not too loud of a concert, but the low end suffers dearly.

I respectfully disagree as to the R09. I found the R09HR's internals to be decent, although I only used them for a test recording. I made a test recording with my R09, on the other hand, and was disappointed with the results (even though the band was not too loud and there was no distortion). The recording sounded very "thin" to me. I think that's why Chris Church offered to replace the R09's internals with CA-11's (I had it done-they sounded great and would never distort).  He didn't offer that option with the  HR both because he said it was a harder job to replace them but also because he thought the HR's internals sounded better and replacing them wouldn't improve the sound as much.

A friend that lent me his R-09 had recorded a James Taylor show (Jones Beach Theatre) with the internals before I set him up with real microphones.  No, it wasn't a full-sounding, high quality recording, but it did surprise me and is better than nothing.  By the way, when I say better than nothing, I mean that.  98% of the time, I do not feel that internal mics provide something that is better than nothing.

Yes, the R-09HR improved on the internals over the R-09 in a big way.  In fact, at the time the R-09HR came out, it was the highest rated internals for small machines on the market.  That doesn't mean I'm going to use them...unless of an odd and extreme emergency.

Furburger, I would like to sample your DR-2D recordings, but I'm not willing to start downloading torrents to do so.  Sorry.  Are any of them up on archive where I can stream them?
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2017, 12:07:34 PM »
the internal mics in the R-09 are the worst I've ever used.

the internals on the Tascam DR-2D are nearly as good as external mics, regardless of what the elitists here say.

I have posted many examples, they handle both quiet and loud music *just fine*, as long as you use the lo/med/high gain correctly.


a DR-2D costs a *fraction* of what mics would cost, and will get you a recording 90-95% as good as an external mic setup.

I'll record more proof this weekend, by doing folk rock (Tim Easton), rock (Ben Harper) and metal (36 Crazyfists).


while those who recommend spending money on mics have good intentions, they are dead-ass wrong that they are necessary.

I beg to differ.  Now they are 90-95% as good as a recording made with "elitist mics"?  They were 90% before.  These are not even close in my opinion and the opinion of most tapers on this site. 

If you like them and you think you are making the best possible recording then good for you.   

Offline taperdav

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2017, 08:55:50 PM »
So, should I assume that SP -BMC-2 mics might also not handle the bass from a loud rock concert?  I realize there are much better mics, but thought that these would be okay for rock concerts.

Would the SP-CMC-20 be a step up and would anyone know if they would handle bass? 

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2017, 09:15:33 PM »
So, should I assume that SP -BMC-2 mics might also not handle the bass from a loud rock concert?  I realize there are much better mics, but thought that these would be okay for rock concerts.

Would the SP-CMC-20 be a step up and would anyone know if they would handle bass?

The BMC are binaural omnis.  If crowd noise is a concern those will get relatively more of that.

The factor to examine in this connection with loud shows is the Maximum SPL they can handle.  The higher that number the better.  You will see with SP that they quote that for the mics and the mics with a battery box and perhaps one other configuration I forget.  A battery box increases their ability to deal with volume. 

As far as SP goes I really like the CMC-25's (and have those myself).  They'll stand up to anything and are a good choice for overly loud rock and poor sounding rooms.  They may have changed them since I got mine...  If you get them when they run one of their periodic sales they're not very expensive 9especially for how they perform).  YMMV.  There is a very large price gradient between them of course. 

If you ask SP they're pretty good about explaining what would be best in their lineup based on what you're intending to record and your budget. 

The R-09 does not provide max SPL specs on their site. 

The SP site provides this as: Maximum Input Sound Level

BMC-2 : 105dB/120dB  (105 is too low for a loud show.  The 120 with battery box should cover most situations) 

CMC-25 : 105dB/117dB/130dB

« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 09:22:59 PM by bombdiggity »
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Audio:
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>
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Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2017, 05:26:17 AM »
Are any of them up on archive where I can stream them?


I'm sure that Dennis has put some up....as Sammy isn't pro taping, search by "Hagar". he's pretty good about listing the lineage.
the internal mics in the R-09 are the worst I've ever used.

the internals on the Tascam DR-2D are nearly as good as external mics, regardless of what the elitists here say.

I have posted many examples, they handle both quiet and loud music *just fine*, as long as you use the lo/med/high gain correctly.


a DR-2D costs a *fraction* of what mics would cost, and will get you a recording 90-95% as good as an external mic setup.

I'll record more proof this weekend, by doing folk rock (Tim Easton), rock (Ben Harper) and metal (36 Crazyfists).


while those who recommend spending money on mics have good intentions, they are dead-ass wrong that they are necessary.

I beg to differ.  Now they are 90-95% as good as a recording made with "elitist mics"?  They were 90% before.  These are not even close in my opinion and the opinion of most tapers on this site. 

If you like them and you think you are making the best possible recording then good for you.   


90% for "heavy" music, and 95% for "softer", or acoustic stuff. (as more texture is audible)

would 92.5% of the time make you feel better?

it's not worth the money to drop the coin on a "rig", as the dollars spent do not match the results obtained (in a nutshell)


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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2017, 10:19:54 AM »
Are any of them up on archive where I can stream them?


I'm sure that Dennis has put some up....as Sammy isn't pro taping, search by "Hagar". he's pretty good about listing the lineage.
the internal mics in the R-09 are the worst I've ever used.

the internals on the Tascam DR-2D are nearly as good as external mics, regardless of what the elitists here say.

I have posted many examples, they handle both quiet and loud music *just fine*, as long as you use the lo/med/high gain correctly.


a DR-2D costs a *fraction* of what mics would cost, and will get you a recording 90-95% as good as an external mic setup.

I'll record more proof this weekend, by doing folk rock (Tim Easton), rock (Ben Harper) and metal (36 Crazyfists).


while those who recommend spending money on mics have good intentions, they are dead-ass wrong that they are necessary.

I beg to differ.  Now they are 90-95% as good as a recording made with "elitist mics"?  They were 90% before.  These are not even close in my opinion and the opinion of most tapers on this site. 

If you like them and you think you are making the best possible recording then good for you.   


90% for "heavy" music, and 95% for "softer", or acoustic stuff. (as more texture is audible)

would 92.5% of the time make you feel better?

it's not worth the money to drop the coin on a "rig", as the dollars spent do not match the results obtained (in a nutshell)

That is your opinion for sure.  If you don't have the dough to spend on gear then you do what you can.  The excuse that you travel to shows doesn't fly because many other tapers (including myself) have put in lots of miles traveling and have passport stamps to prove it.  I just set up a friend (He taped extensively in the 80's)  with a Schoeps rig for about $2,500.  Seems like a small price to pay for recordings that are sweet to the ears versus recordings that make me want to turn off the stereo.

Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2017, 02:55:16 PM »
Not everyone has an ear for hi fidelity, and therefore won't hear what another person who does have an ear for a higher quality sound hears.  Just sayin'.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2017, 06:35:34 PM »
Not everyone has an ear for hi fidelity

That. 

And just about anyone rationalizes/justifies what they use as optimal because that's human nature. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2017, 06:57:39 PM »
 :cheers:
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
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Simple & Sweet!

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2017, 07:27:40 PM »
Although the R-09 is a good recorder, is it possible there is something wrong with it?  Test it out under different conditions and find out.  I've used one for awhile and thought it was a good machine (just too small of a screen for me).  I like the R-09HR myself (but it has a bigger screen and a few improvements over its predecessor).  The internals on both are great...if you're recording yourself playing a guitar in your bedroom, and if the stars align, in a live acoustic setting, or not too loud of a concert, but the low end suffers dearly.

I respectfully disagree as to the R09. I found the R09HR's internals to be decent, although I only used them for a test recording. I made a test recording with my R09, on the other hand, and was disappointed with the results (even though the band was not too loud and there was no distortion). The recording sounded very "thin" to me. I think that's why Chris Church offered to replace the R09's internals with CA-11's (I had it done-they sounded great and would never distort).  He didn't offer that option with the  HR both because he said it was a harder job to replace them but also because he thought the HR's internals sounded better and replacing them wouldn't improve the sound as much.

You had CA-11's replacing the internals in your R09?   If so, why?

Em, Eye, See, Kay, E, Why..

Church Audio R-09 "Micsketeers" microphone modificaiton



Em, Oh, You, Ess, E
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2017, 12:33:10 AM »
Although the R-09 is a good recorder, is it possible there is something wrong with it?  Test it out under different conditions and find out.  I've used one for awhile and thought it was a good machine (just too small of a screen for me).  I like the R-09HR myself (but it has a bigger screen and a few improvements over its predecessor).  The internals on both are great...if you're recording yourself playing a guitar in your bedroom, and if the stars align, in a live acoustic setting, or not too loud of a concert, but the low end suffers dearly.

I respectfully disagree as to the R09. I found the R09HR's internals to be decent, although I only used them for a test recording. I made a test recording with my R09, on the other hand, and was disappointed with the results (even though the band was not too loud and there was no distortion). The recording sounded very "thin" to me. I think that's why Chris Church offered to replace the R09's internals with CA-11's (I had it done-they sounded great and would never distort).  He didn't offer that option with the  HR both because he said it was a harder job to replace them but also because he thought the HR's internals sounded better and replacing them wouldn't improve the sound as much.

You had CA-11's replacing the internals in your R09?   If so, why?

Em, Eye, See, Kay, E, Why..

Church Audio R-09 "Micsketeers" microphone modificaiton



Em, Oh, You, Ess, E

It is kind of cute.   :yack: :yack: :yack: 

Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2017, 09:06:38 AM »
Looks like mouse ears...but totally pointless.  :tomato:
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
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Simple & Sweet!

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2017, 11:32:23 AM »
Are any of them up on archive where I can stream them?


I'm sure that Dennis has put some up....as Sammy isn't pro taping, search by "Hagar". he's pretty good about listing the lineage.
the internal mics in the R-09 are the worst I've ever used.

the internals on the Tascam DR-2D are nearly as good as external mics, regardless of what the elitists here say.

I have posted many examples, they handle both quiet and loud music *just fine*, as long as you use the lo/med/high gain correctly.


a DR-2D costs a *fraction* of what mics would cost, and will get you a recording 90-95% as good as an external mic setup.

I'll record more proof this weekend, by doing folk rock (Tim Easton), rock (Ben Harper) and metal (36 Crazyfists).


while those who recommend spending money on mics have good intentions, they are dead-ass wrong that they are necessary.

I beg to differ.  Now they are 90-95% as good as a recording made with "elitist mics"?  They were 90% before.  These are not even close in my opinion and the opinion of most tapers on this site. 

If you like them and you think you are making the best possible recording then good for you.   


90% for "heavy" music, and 95% for "softer", or acoustic stuff. (as more texture is audible)

would 92.5% of the time make you feel better?

it's not worth the money to drop the coin on a "rig", as the dollars spent do not match the results obtained (in a nutshell)

That is your opinion for sure.  If you don't have the dough to spend on gear then you do what you can.  The excuse that you travel to shows doesn't fly because many other tapers (including myself) have put in lots of miles traveling and have passport stamps to prove it.  I just set up a friend (He taped extensively in the 80's)  with a Schoeps rig for about $2,500.  Seems like a small price to pay for recordings that are sweet to the ears versus recordings that make me want to turn off the stereo.


I grow weed and would rather spend my money on flying hotties up from the States (one is arriving from Indiana this week).

because I'm good looking and chicks dig me.

your recordings are not "sweet to the ears", whoever told you that is most definitely a fluffer.


Ben Harper, other than the 'geese' for 20 minutes of the quieter songs and the dude I almost knocked out, is absolutely sublime. right up there with my best.

even though Mooses Tooth *totally* changed their configuration

put 1400 miles on a rental car in under 72 hours, and blew a few hundred along the way.

have ***FIVE*** more taping trips planned before the end of Sept, that will cost $8-10K between plane tickets, show tickets, car rentals, food and games (I have countless friends nationwide, so places to stay for most of it saves money there)

once the hippy lettuce farm gets up and running (we're legal up here), pretty sure I'll be making more in 3 months than you make in a year.


and I still won't buy overpriced, overrated microphones.

I ***get it***, you're one of these cornholes:

When I taped Gov't Mule back in the day with my Neumann rig, the tapers with their rigs were the biggest assholes that thought their gear was the best and they knew it all about mic placement and gain settings, etc.  Everyone at the time was checking the serial numbers on the Lunatecs to see who had the lowest serial number.  Mine was like #9 and I could care less, but it was a big deal to these idiots.


and that's fine.


but telling people that your path is the only way to satisfaction is utter bullshit.

#anditSHOWS


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Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2017, 11:34:36 AM »
Not everyone has an ear for hi fidelity, and therefore won't hear what another person who does have an ear for a higher quality sound hears.  Just sayin'.


aaaaaaaaaaand I tested "off the charts" in grade school and have been wearing earplugs at nearly every show since age 20.


still have 20/20 vision at age 45, and also took the 1st half of 2nd grade/last half of 3rd (how many kids do you know who skip a grade mid-year)


#jusssayin (sic)  (yes, I'm aware that "sic" is only used to 'quote someone elses misuse', which I think applies here)
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2017, 11:42:01 AM »
Not everyone has an ear for hi fidelity

That. 

And just about anyone rationalizes/justifies what they use as optimal because that's human nature.

let me bring datfly into the equation.

while Mike and I never saw eye to eye in the 90's, he ***is*** a taper that knows how to use a mic stand and obtain optimal results (always thought his tapes had much more depth and feel than Scott Weber's (Spider-Web) sterile Crowes stack tapes.....the irony is, Mike recorded the Crowes in '96 (for example) in the exact same fashion as Scott


NOW, when you see Mike's lineage, you see, why, what is that? fancy-schmancy mics ***used in conjunction with the DR-2D internals***???


why, yes, I fucking think that is what I see:

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=597089

Source: Schoeps MK41 - Nbob Actives - Naiant Tinybox Version 2 - Tascam DR-2d Line In + Internal Mics (24-48)


now WHY would an experienced 25-year mic-stand taper, a guy with just as many if not more excellent captures as several of you combined, do such an inane thing?





prolly because I speak the unfettered truth about what I am saying (though he came to that conclusion all on his own)



that's why it's so hard to buy into what many of you here are saying....because I *hear* the internals alone do great work.


that you folks can't is on you...
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2017, 12:01:59 PM »

I grow weed and would rather spend my money on flying hotties up from the States (one is arriving from Indiana this week).

because I'm good looking and chicks dig me.

your recordings are not "sweet to the ears", whoever told you that is most definitely a fluffer.


Ben Harper, other than the 'geese' for 20 minutes of the quieter songs and the dude I almost knocked out, is absolutely sublime. right up there with my best.

even though Mooses Tooth *totally* changed their configuration

put 1400 miles on a rental car in under 72 hours, and blew a few hundred along the way.

have ***FIVE*** more taping trips planned before the end of Sept, that will cost $8-10K between plane tickets, show tickets, car rentals, food and games (I have countless friends nationwide, so places to stay for most of it saves money there)

once the hippy lettuce farm gets up and running (we're legal up here), pretty sure I'll be making more in 3 months than you make in a year.


and I still won't buy overpriced, overrated microphones.

I ***get it***, you're one of these cornholes:

#anditSHOWS

Really, can't wait to hear your Ben recording, I'd bet one of my investment accounts that my recordings will smoke your internal mic trash, especially if its one of your best. 

I can guarantee your income, like your recordings are inferior.  Are you willing to put up or shut up? 

(Account Value $919,609.34 Cash & Cash Invest. $21,572.97 Market Value $898,036.37 Day Change1 +$1,910.04 (0.21%) Open Day Change Details Cost Basis $452,618.82 Gain/Loss3 +$447,690.41 (98.91%)   

Name the amounts you are willing to wager since you make more than me selling grass than I make consulting and trading stocks?  Or lets make the bet, my gear versus yours.  Independent poll on here which raw recording sounds better, .  Come on big boy, you willing to put your money where your mouth is?   I am.   :bigsmile:   (Waiting on your excuse why you can't tick tock tick tock)

« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 05:35:23 PM by Brian Skalinder »

Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2017, 12:26:16 PM »

I grow weed and would rather spend my money on flying hotties up from the States (one is arriving from Indiana this week).

because I'm good looking and chicks dig me.

your recordings are not "sweet to the ears", whoever told you that is most definitely a fluffer.


Ben Harper, other than the 'geese' for 20 minutes of the quieter songs and the dude I almost knocked out, is absolutely sublime. right up there with my best.

even though Mooses Tooth *totally* changed their configuration

put 1400 miles on a rental car in under 72 hours, and blew a few hundred along the way.

have ***FIVE*** more taping trips planned before the end of Sept, that will cost $8-10K between plane tickets, show tickets, car rentals, food and games (I have countless friends nationwide, so places to stay for most of it saves money there)

once the hippy lettuce farm gets up and running (we're legal up here), pretty sure I'll be making more in 3 months than you make in a year.


and I still won't buy overpriced, overrated microphones.

I ***get it***, you're one of these cornholes:

#anditSHOWS

Really, can't wait to hear your Ben recording, I'd bet one of my investment accounts that my recordings will smoke your internal mic trash, especially if its one of your best. 

I can guarantee your income, like your recordings are inferior.  Are you willing to put up or shut up? 

(Account Value $919,609.34 Cash & Cash Invest. $21,572.97 Market Value $898,036.37 Day Change1 +$1,910.04 (0.21%) Open Day Change Details Cost Basis $452,618.82 Gain/Loss3 +$447,690.41 (98.91%)   

Name the amounts you are willing to wager since you make more than me selling grass than I make consulting and trading stocks?  Or lets make the bet, my gear versus yours.  Independent poll on here which raw recording sounds better, .  Come on big boy, you willing to put your money where your mouth is?   I am.   :bigsmile:   (Waiting on your excuse why you can't tick tock tick tock)


300 315 HPS lights and a few hundred 1000w LEDS with only one other partner and a monthly harvest schedule....I stand by what I'm saying. (not to mention my job is real work vs. paper pushing)

then there's the bubble hash made from the trim, sold at a premium.

THEN there's the coconut oil made from the post-hash waste that helps so many sick people in this town with numerous ailments (anxiety, insomnia, menstrual cramps, cancer nausea/appetite, lupus, MS.......... I could go on and on) that I sell at a loss to help others. (as that's my nature). I've been told by many that it's the most effective (strongest) they've used other than pure oil.

if I could figure out a use for the stems (working on a tea), nothing but the roots would be wasted.

throw in that I've bred my own and many people want what I breed....

basically, my everyday life ***is a vacation***, and when I go taping, that's like "work".


the raw recording is less than 5 minutes from being done...I mean it is done:

Download link
https://we.tl/eKlmn3vcjq
1 file
DR0000_0035.wav
Message
Ben Harper & The Innocent Criminals - July 24, 2017 - Moose's Tooth parking lot - Anchorage AK............. Sonics (middle position lo-cut)/Tascam, taped approx 30ft. from the right stack

you said Sonics and internals are the same, so here ya go.


the bottom line is that it's kinda looking like you're old and spent, and that your ship has sailed/time has passed you by there Mr. "Father Of The Year".

you should focus on your kid vs. chasing dollars and spent musicians.

and it shows.




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Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2017, 01:29:17 PM »
one last simple point to drive home where I'm coming from (then it's pretty much all been said)


didn't leave the state in '14 (had a lot on my plate).

went to 22 shows.

of those 22 shows, I only paid to go to 3 of them.


why?

because the artists, after seeing (I film with 4 cameras at once as well as up-to 4 audio decks) and hearing my work, not only allowed me permission to do my thing, but guest-listed myself, +2 (at my request), in exchange for the footage/audio.


this begs 2 simple questions:

1. is a taper going to give more weight to the opinion of a bunch of bitter, old "know it alls" whose arguments really have no substance or merit, or to the opinion of the artists themselves?

2. and *if* my stuff was really as horrible as many here allege, then why would those bands do such a thing, that being guestlist me plus 2?



an .864 percentage when asking for artists to compensate me for my skills AND allow me to bring friendS for free....




juss a lil' #FoodForThought
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Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2017, 01:30:17 PM »
where did daspy go?

this makes me sad.
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2017, 01:57:05 PM »
Some of us actually work for a living furby.  Best part about my job is I am doing something valuable, not pushing paper as you seem to think.  Since you are computer illiterate and can't even manage to upload your shows it would be hard for you to understand what I do.  But then, you seem to know everything so just waiting for you to put your money where your mouth is instead of your nonsense deflections.  Talk is just that, talk.  All you do.

I will give you credit, your recording isn't terrible.  Not something I'd listen to beyond a sample since there are much better recordings of Ben to listen to. 

Here is my Ben from the Bottlerock Festival.  I doubt you will download it https://we.tl/hnxhnrM8h9  since you never bother to listen to anything good. 

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2017, 02:36:38 PM »
Some of us actually work for a living furby.  Best part about my job is I am doing something valuable, not pushing paper as you seem to think.  Since you are computer illiterate and can't even manage to upload your shows it would be hard for you to understand what I do.  But then, you seem to know everything so just waiting for you to put your money where your mouth is instead of your nonsense deflections.  Talk is just that, talk.  All you do.

I will give you credit, your recording isn't terrible.  Not something I'd listen to beyond a sample since there are much better recordings of Ben to listen to. 

Here is my Ben from the Bottlerock Festival.  I doubt you will download it https://we.tl/hnxhnrM8h9  since you never bother to listen to anything good.

coming from "Father Of The Year", I'll take that as a win.

your son would probably side with me as well.
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2017, 03:47:14 PM »
Some of us actually work for a living furby.  Best part about my job is I am doing something valuable, not pushing paper as you seem to think.  Since you are computer illiterate and can't even manage to upload your shows it would be hard for you to understand what I do.  But then, you seem to know everything so just waiting for you to put your money where your mouth is instead of your nonsense deflections.  Talk is just that, talk.  All you do.

I will give you credit, your recording isn't terrible.  Not something I'd listen to beyond a sample since there are much better recordings of Ben to listen to. 

Here is my Ben from the Bottlerock Festival.  I doubt you will download it https://we.tl/hnxhnrM8h9  since you never bother to listen to anything good.

coming from "Father Of The Year", I'll take that as a win.

your son would probably side with me as well.

Doubt that,  he has little tolerance for fools.    Then again, you'd know nothing about that, just like most other topics. 

I said it wasn't terrible, I DID NOT say it was a good recording and if that truly is your best work then I'd say you have a lot of work to do to perfect your craft.

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2017, 10:07:07 PM »

coming from "Father Of The Year", I'll take that as a win.

your son would probably side with me as well.

you're right,  he has little tolerance for fools like me.   

fixed that for you.

that you had to send him away (probably more than once) pretty much confirms this.



I said it wasn't terrible, I DID NOT say it was a good recording and if that truly is your best work then I'd say you have a lot of work to do to perfect your craft.


all it needs is a hard filter at 98hz (-12dB), and some feathering around that, (from 400hz to the right, it's flawless) and it'sa gonna sound ballsdeep amazing.  (aka "amazeballsdeep")

the overall sound of mine at the 1hr15m mark is sublime, and truly puts yours to shame, which leads into.....

80% of raw masters have flaws, including yours

where yours is flawed (not that you'll take any of this to heart):

---63 and 98 hz are jumping up to +10dB, creating a muddly (sic) low end that doesn't "breathe" or "throb correctly" (this will be fixed on my recording with the simple filter on 98hz, perhaps Ben's soundman abuses this frequency like PJ's abuses 250hz...Matt's snare and certain toms do the exact same thing. for it being an outdoor show, not an amphitheater, a muddy low end is rather odd. the bass on mine has much more throb and texture.


---625hz is peaking to the point of distortion (jumping up to +10/+12 dB, that IS the mud frequency, and also the lower register of his vox. every time he screams, it peaks and sounds burpy.  not appealing at all.  your fancy mic are doing a horrible repro (sic) on his voice. he's almost god-like on mine.


---your high end past 2.5 rarely jumps above -6dB, other than 6.3 hz which occasionally tickles 0dB. there is NO brightness on the high end. mine is much brighter, and overall has ***much more clarity***

also, overall it sounds *very* compressed. it doesn't "breathe" on the high end either (bass breathes into your chest (you 'feel' it), mids and trebles breathe in your earholes (you 'hear' it).

this shit is gonna be a cakewalk (and that's just on a cursory listen)


I have one bad frequency, that being 98hz. that's it, other than that, the music sounds perfect (can't control the crowd)

should be up in the next few days, if not sooner (tonight, perhaps)


get your awesome excuses ready.  (it didn't even get 100 snatches). I can virtually guarantee that mine will do better.  (quick, send out PM's to all 2 of your friends here to tell them not to download it, and I'll post for my friends as well to do the opposite).

not to mention of your 6 comments, not a single one is more than a sentence...no big deal, except you typed a LOT, and got back little. (it must be your storytelling style...or all your whining)

it's rumble time.....(Ben loved my home state btw, said it was the bands best show ever before the encore)

we even got a cool show poster for $40
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 11:26:26 PM by furburger »
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2017, 11:17:42 PM »
also, your Bottlerock tape, you turn the volume up to 40%, and it goes all to shit.

mine will be able to be cranked at least to 80% and still sound clean.

THAT is the tale of the tape, and why you've lost this one out of the gate.



any other artists you want to compare?
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2017, 11:18:55 PM »
haven't even listened to the internals one yet, but I'll bet it's better than yours as well.

just so you know.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2017, 10:24:25 AM »
haven't even listened to the internals one yet, but I'll bet it's better than yours as well.

just so you know.

I listened to 1 song.  As I said, it doesn't completely suck but one song is enough.  Has been deleted, no need to waste space.  I think the issue is your playback.  I don't need to turn it up to 40% to get high enough volume here.  Maybe  if you had a better stereo good recording would sound better,but then again you won't put your money behind it.  I will.  If you think it sounds good that should be good enough for you.  Personally, not impressed.

Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2017, 01:36:11 PM »
I couldn't care less about your feud about who makes more money, who gets more ass or who the better father is, but I was curious enough to take the time to download both of your offerings and sample them both.  All I care about is what sounds better.

The first problem I hear here is that one of you is posting apples and the other is posting oranges.  Get it together and make it a fair competition.   Here's what I'd like to see: Decide on a recording situation that you either both have or are willing to do...and be honest.  Both  recordings need to be either inside (decide on the size and type of the venue) or outside (decide on the size and type of venue).  Next is positioning.  One of you at 20 feet and the other at 75 feet isn't a fair test.

Additionally, you both need to supply an anal report, so we know what we're listening to.  I forgot who's was who's, and don't care, but the one labeled BHIC... had the anal report attached, the one labeled DR0000... did not.  I will refer to those labels going forward.

I listened to both at various points during the recordings in the same manner (maintaining the same volume and listening through Sennheiser HD380 Pro headphones).  Like I indicated above, both recording situations were far to different to make a fair comparison on the equipment used to record it.  I could easily draw a conclusion from what I've heard, but it means nothing because of positioning and environment.  Granted, there will never be a truly fair comparison until both rigs are in the same 1 square foot footprint recording the same thing, but since you two would probably kill each other if in the same proximity, that isn't going to be possible.  Given that you are both overloaded with cash, however, I would propose that you get together in a legal taping situation and do just that in order to settle this once and for all.

I know you are both interested in my opinion, since I gave both recordings a listen, and I will reluctantly give it to you, but not without further explaining that the venue, environment and position means EVERYTHING when comparing sound, and NONE of those things were aligned with these particular recordings.  Got that?  I mean, do you both truly understand that?
That being said, I found the presence of the DR0000 to be very raw and vibrant, while the BHIC was more natural and pleasing to the ear.  Two VERY different kinds of sound, and both subject to personal taste.  BHIC, unless it was something else, try not to touch the cables or allow them to be knocked around...or handle the deck.  I believe I heard more handling noise that I prefer.  DR0000, did you have a low cut on?  You need more bottom end tones.  AGAIN...these are NOT fair comparisons.  Get it together and try again.  If you can't be in the same place at the same time, I would suggest choosing a band that is consistent in their sound and venue type on the same tour (a good example of that would be Phish at the 13 show MSG run...but be in the same location).  Dead & Company is another good example of consistency in sound.  You need to agree on an arena (size matters), and stadium (size and shape matters) or shed....club...etc.

And for cryin' out loud, try and have fun doing it!

***Incidentally, I have no money (due to a divorce and a vindictive cunt), so if either of you big spenders want to help me pay my bills, I'm not too proud to accept the help***

 :headphones: :cheers: :headphones:
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2017, 02:34:56 PM »
I am willing to take the challenge. Not for Phish or Dead and Company though.  Yes my recording would have more handling noise given I was "in the crowd" at a large festival (Bottlerock in Napa 40,000 + attendees) and was getting jostled and bounced around and there was also a steady breeze resulting in a bit of wind noise. 

I totally understand what you are saying in terms of isolating out ALL other factors and actually made that point in the very beginning.  My comment ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, a recording made with better mics will yield a better recording.  When you start changing venues, positioning, etc it obviously becomes harder to compare but if I thought I could make a better recording using internal mics, I wouldn't have invested in my gear.  Whether the definition is 10% better or 50% better, the goal should be to make the best possible recording IMHO, not 90% as good although less money was spent.  That said, furby could never admit any recording than I,  Sloan Simpson, Dan Lynch, Edtyre or Scooter123 etc made sounds better than any of his recordings.   

Don't worry, I have fun doing this.   Just not a big fan of being insulted and belittled by someone I have zero respect for here and other places. 

Sorry, you went through that with a vindictive cunt (I can relate) and not sure where you are located but would enjoy taping a show with you and if it was to work out the tickets on me.  I enjoy meeting up with fellow tapers and have met with and taped shows with many on this board now and in the distant past.  At the least, I'd buy the beers.  I am based in Norcal and will be in NY and Philly in September.

Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2017, 02:51:14 PM »
I am willing to take the challenge. Not for Phish or Dead and Company though.  Yes my recording would have more handling noise given I was "in the crowd" at a large festival (Bottlerock in Napa 40,000 + attendees) and was getting jostled and bounced around and there was also a steady breeze resulting in a bit of wind noise. 

I totally understand what you are saying in terms of isolating out ALL other factors and actually made that point in the very beginning.  My comment ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, a recording made with better mics will yield a better recording.  When you start changing venues, positioning, etc it obviously becomes harder to compare but if I thought I could make a better recording using internal mics, I wouldn't have invested in my gear.  Whether the definition is 10% better or 50% better, the goal should be to make the best possible recording IMHO, not 90% as good although less money was spent.  That said, furby could never admit any recording than I,  Sloan Simpson, Dan Lynch, Edtyre or Scooter123 etc made sounds better than any of his recordings.   

Don't worry, I have fun doing this.   Just not a big fan of being insulted and belittled by someone I have zero respect for here and other places. 

Sorry, you went through that with a vindictive cunt (I can relate) and not sure where you are located but would enjoy taping a show with you and if it was to work out the tickets on me.  I enjoy meeting up with fellow tapers and have met with and taped shows with many on this board now and in the distant past.  At the least, I'd buy the beers.  I am based in Norcal and will be in NY and Philly in September.


Yes, all things being equal is the main point of my comment.

The choice of bands I mentioned was not made by personal preference (although I do enjoy both) as much it was for their superior attention to the quality of sound over most other touring bands.
I live in NY (Long Island) and don't travel much these days (as a result of being broke), but catch what I can locally...often through a miracle or being on the guest list.  It will most likely be like that for me for the next 2+ years, as that is how much longer I have to deal with her and her crap.  Once done, and back on my feet, I look forward to being who I am again!  I'd love to get together when your in New York, and tape a show together, after all it is a passion of mine.  When you know you'll be around, reach out to me through messenger, and we can hook up.

I strive to capture the moment the way it is presented, not with various whistles and bells designed to alter the sound as we are hearing it in the audience, but not everyone is like that.  Not everyone likes a lot of low end, and will therefore roll it off.  I may not agree with that, but their's is not my tape.  I record for me, and share when I feel like it.  It's a good feeling when I post something that others like too, but I'm not doing it for that reason.  It's just a bonus if others enjoy something I've made and like the way I did it.  To each their own, and all that.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2017, 03:44:48 PM »
taperdav, you still around?  Wondering if you'll ever dare ask another question at TS after the row this one stirred up!

I strive to capture the moment the way it is presented, not with various whistles and bells designed to alter the sound as we are hearing it in the audience.

Hey Nak, I always enjoy hearing about what motivates tapers to record, and differences in philosophy about doing so.  Mind if I dig a bit and ask a few questions?

I think I understand your stated goal laid out in the first half of that statement.  I take it to mean aiming for reproducing the aural experience you had at the live event, in such a way that the listener can close their eyes and imagine themselves standing were you were when you recorded it.  Is that a fair assessment?  What I'm curious about is the second half of that statement.  Can you flesh out the whistles and bells a bit for me?
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Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2017, 04:08:37 PM »
I couldn't care less about your feud about who makes more money, who gets more ass or who the better father is, but I was curious enough to take the time to download both of your offerings and sample them both.  All I care about is what sounds better.

The first problem I hear here is that one of you is posting apples and the other is posting oranges.  Get it together and make it a fair competition.   Here's what I'd like to see: Decide on a recording situation that you either both have or are willing to do...and be honest.  Both  recordings need to be either inside (decide on the size and type of the venue) or outside (decide on the size and type of venue).  Next is positioning.  One of you at 20 feet and the other at 75 feet isn't a fair test.

Additionally, you both need to supply an anal report, so we know what we're listening to.  I forgot who's was who's, and don't care, but the one labeled BHIC... had the anal report attached, the one labeled DR0000... did not.  I will refer to those labels going forward.

I listened to both at various points during the recordings in the same manner (maintaining the same volume and listening through Sennheiser HD380 Pro headphones).  Like I indicated above, both recording situations were far to different to make a fair comparison on the equipment used to record it.  I could easily draw a conclusion from what I've heard, but it means nothing because of positioning and environment.  Granted, there will never be a truly fair comparison until both rigs are in the same 1 square foot footprint recording the same thing, but since you two would probably kill each other if in the same proximity, that isn't going to be possible.  Given that you are both overloaded with cash, however, I would propose that you get together in a legal taping situation and do just that in order to settle this once and for all.

I know you are both interested in my opinion, since I gave both recordings a listen, and I will reluctantly give it to you, but not without further explaining that the venue, environment and position means EVERYTHING when comparing sound, and NONE of those things were aligned with these particular recordings.  Got that?  I mean, do you both truly understand that?
That being said, I found the presence of the DR0000 to be very raw and vibrant, while the BHIC was more natural and pleasing to the ear.  Two VERY different kinds of sound, and both subject to personal taste.  BHIC, unless it was something else, try not to touch the cables or allow them to be knocked around...or handle the deck.  I believe I heard more handling noise that I prefer.  DR0000, did you have a low cut on?  You need more bottom end tones.  AGAIN...these are NOT fair comparisons.  Get it together and try again.  If you can't be in the same place at the same time, I would suggest choosing a band that is consistent in their sound and venue type on the same tour (a good example of that would be Phish at the 13 show MSG run...but be in the same location).  Dead & Company is another good example of consistency in sound.  You need to agree on an arena (size matters), and stadium (size and shape matters) or shed....club...etc.

And for cryin' out loud, try and have fun doing it!

***Incidentally, I have no money (due to a divorce and a vindictive cunt), so if either of you big spenders want to help me pay my bills, I'm not too proud to accept the help***

 :headphones: :cheers: :headphones:


hmmmmm. taping side-by-side, to me, seems asinine, as the entire point of ***stealth*** taping is for the taper to find the best position, according to *their* experiences, and to get the best capture they know how. to tell either taper that they "have" to be in the same section of real estate, thats MIC STAND attitudes right there, and we all know how I feel about those......


you call it "all things being equal", and that's one of my main problems with a mic-stand designation...that you're relegated to 0.05% of the real estate in a venue, which is inherently limiting.

OR, if you really want to do a side-by-side....sure...but you'd also have to make that one weighted (30-40% max), as by telling both tapers to stand next to each other, you're removing a component of the stealth tapers life experience. not allowing them to "do what they do", and instead "you stand here". so a 2nd "do it your way" recording should be weighted more in the 60-70% range. as that would represent the full knowledge of what the taper does, not relegating them mic-stand style.

there's no doubt in my mind that my Ben Harper has much more clarity, oomph, range and "breathes" better than daspy's. his truly sounds like a compressed mess. throw in that I can ***see*** the variations on my EQ, and it makes it very easy to explain the *why*

I'm sure daspy has pulled great tapes in the past (there's your 'compliment', pookie), but his Bottlerock Ben Harper is not one of them.  it's "solid", but if it's an example of his unfettered excellence, then I'm snickering all the way to the bank.


oh yeah, never taped Phish or the Dead, and not about to add ramen to my diet at this stage of the game ;)


overall, you have many fair points.....and I *am* having fun, isn't that kinda obvious? :D

also have been known to sponsor tickets and computers and hard drives and software purchases for folks in the past.

'cuz when you grow the  hippy lettuce as good as my recordings, you suddenly have a LOT more friends who aren't broke.  (been told that mine is better than the shops in town, which is plenty good enough for me)


only 20 less snatches, and it's been barely up 12 hours vs. nearly 2 months.

to be fair, mine is a headline vs. festival set, no, I'm not so dense to think that those are equal either.



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Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2017, 04:14:10 PM »
  Since you are computer illiterate and can't even manage to upload your shows


you mean "since you seem to struggle with both syntax and context"???

clearly, I'm computer literate...because I'm here.

and pretty sure I uploaded a show just last night.

what I'm getting at...did you mean to say "haven't learned how to create a torrent yet"?

yeah, I'm sure that's what you meant....



fuck you're easy.

and it shows.
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2017, 04:21:43 PM »
I couldn't care less about your feud about who makes more money, who gets more ass or who the better father is, but I was curious enough to take the time to download both of your offerings and sample them both.  All I care about is what sounds better.

The first problem I hear here is that one of you is posting apples and the other is posting oranges.  Get it together and make it a fair competition.   Here's what I'd like to see: Decide on a recording situation that you either both have or are willing to do...and be honest.  Both  recordings need to be either inside (decide on the size and type of the venue) or outside (decide on the size and type of venue).  Next is positioning.  One of you at 20 feet and the other at 75 feet isn't a fair test.

Additionally, you both need to supply an anal report, so we know what we're listening to.  I forgot who's was who's, and don't care, but the one labeled BHIC... had the anal report attached, the one labeled DR0000... did not.  I will refer to those labels going forward.

I listened to both at various points during the recordings in the same manner (maintaining the same volume and listening through Sennheiser HD380 Pro headphones).  Like I indicated above, both recording situations were far to different to make a fair comparison on the equipment used to record it.  I could easily draw a conclusion from what I've heard, but it means nothing because of positioning and environment.  Granted, there will never be a truly fair comparison until both rigs are in the same 1 square foot footprint recording the same thing, but since you two would probably kill each other if in the same proximity, that isn't going to be possible.  Given that you are both overloaded with cash, however, I would propose that you get together in a legal taping situation and do just that in order to settle this once and for all.

I know you are both interested in my opinion, since I gave both recordings a listen, and I will reluctantly give it to you, but not without further explaining that the venue, environment and position means EVERYTHING when comparing sound, and NONE of those things were aligned with these particular recordings.  Got that?  I mean, do you both truly understand that?
That being said, I found the presence of the DR0000 to be very raw and vibrant, while the BHIC was more natural and pleasing to the ear.  Two VERY different kinds of sound, and both subject to personal taste.  BHIC, unless it was something else, try not to touch the cables or allow them to be knocked around...or handle the deck.  I believe I heard more handling noise that I prefer.  DR0000, did you have a low cut on?  You need more bottom end tones.  AGAIN...these are NOT fair comparisons.  Get it together and try again.  If you can't be in the same place at the same time, I would suggest choosing a band that is consistent in their sound and venue type on the same tour (a good example of that would be Phish at the 13 show MSG run...but be in the same location).  Dead & Company is another good example of consistency in sound.  You need to agree on an arena (size matters), and stadium (size and shape matters) or shed....club...etc.

And for cryin' out loud, try and have fun doing it!

***Incidentally, I have no money (due to a divorce and a vindictive cunt), so if either of you big spenders want to help me pay my bills, I'm not too proud to accept the help***

 :headphones: :cheers: :headphones:


hmmmmm. taping side-by-side, to me, seems asinine, as the entire point of ***stealth*** taping is for the taper to find the best position, according to *their* experiences, and to get the best capture they know how. to tell either taper that they "have" to be in the same section of real estate, thats MIC STAND attitudes right there, and we all know how I feel about those......


you call it "all things being equal", and that's one of my main problems with a mic-stand designation...that you're relegated to 0.05% of the real estate in a venue, which is inherently limiting.

OR, if you really want to do a side-by-side....sure...but you'd also have to make that one weighted (30-40% max), as by telling both tapers to stand next to each other, you're removing a component of the stealth tapers life experience. not allowing them to "do what they do", and instead "you stand here". so a 2nd "do it your way" recording should be weighted more in the 60-70% range. as that would represent the full knowledge of what the taper does, not relegating them mic-stand style.

there's no doubt in my mind that my Ben Harper has much more clarity, oomph, range and "breathes" better than daspy's. his truly sounds like a compressed mess. throw in that I can ***see*** the variations on my EQ, and it makes it very easy to explain the *why*

I'm sure daspy has pulled great tapes in the past (there's your 'compliment', pookie), but his Bottlerock Ben Harper is not one of them.  it's "solid", but if it's an example of his unfettered excellence, then I'm snickering all the way to the bank.


oh yeah, never taped Phish or the Dead, and not about to add ramen to my diet at this stage of the game ;)


overall, you have many fair points.....and I *am* having fun, isn't that kinda obvious? :D

also have been known to sponsor tickets and computers and hard drives and software purchases for folks in the past.

'cuz when you grow the  hippy lettuce as good as my recordings, you suddenly have a LOT more friends who aren't broke.  (been told that mine is better than the shops in town, which is plenty good enough for me)


only 20 less snatches, and it's been barely up 12 hours vs. nearly 2 months.

to be fair, mine is a headline vs. festival set, no, I'm not so dense to think that those are equal either.

I guess you are afraid of the competition.  You use  idiotic comparisons like downloads on one site to file size to emphasize your "superiority".  Good luck, go back under your rock. 

Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2017, 04:22:32 PM »

I listened to 1 song.  As I said, it doesn't completely suck but one song is enough.  Has been deleted, no need to waste space.  I think the issue is your playback.  I don't need to turn it up to 40% to get high enough volume here.  Maybe  if you had a better stereo good recording would sound better,but then again you won't put your money behind it.  I will.  If you think it sounds good that should be good enough for you.  Personally, not impressed.


again, you're not reading what I am saying in a coherent fashion



your recording, before the volume knob hits the halfway mark, it becomes a muddy mess. or, it sounds like shit. 

that's with a flat EQ, played back thru a 3000 watt system. 2 1400 watt Crown amps, bridged parallel mono. a couple of 90lb. Yamaha 18" subs. and 2 800w Cerwin-Vega PA speakers with horns (not 'mids', horns do a much better reproduction job than tinny paper speakers).

mine, while nearly as loud as yours at that level, can continue to be turned up to 80-90% and still sound clean. that means 'not distorted/compressed sounding'.

perhaps you have too many bullshit bells and whistles between your mic and decks when recording, or you don't have decent post-production knowledge.


I master ALL of my stuff with the volume cranked to 80-90%. that's where the warts shine the brightest, and where the worst flaws reside.

WHY?

because anything that sounds stellar with the volume cranked, is going to sound ***even better*** at half-volume.


your recording sounds like it came from the "loudness wars" of the early 00's.....mine sounds straight out of the mid 90's, when shit was still allowed to breathe.
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2017, 04:23:14 PM »
  Since you are computer illiterate and can't even manage to upload your shows


you mean "since you seem to struggle with both syntax and context"???

clearly, I'm computer literate...because I'm here.

and pretty sure I uploaded a show just last night.

what I'm getting at...did you mean to say "haven't learned how to create a torrent yet"?

yeah, I'm sure that's what you meant....



fuck you're easy.

and it shows.

Impressive, you have learned how to access the internet and upload a torrent.  Brilliant.  How about something a bit more complicated that that.   :iamwithstupid:

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2017, 04:25:23 PM »

I listened to 1 song.  As I said, it doesn't completely suck but one song is enough.  Has been deleted, no need to waste space.  I think the issue is your playback.  I don't need to turn it up to 40% to get high enough volume here.  Maybe  if you had a better stereo good recording would sound better,but then again you won't put your money behind it.  I will.  If you think it sounds good that should be good enough for you.  Personally, not impressed.


again, you're not reading what I am saying in a coherent fashion



your recording, before the volume knob hits the halfway mark, it becomes a muddy mess. or, it sounds like shit. 

that's with a flat EQ, played back thru a 3000 watt system. 2 1400 watt Crown amps, bridged parallel mono. a couple of 90lb. Yamaha 18" subs. and 2 800w Cerwin-Vega PA speakers with horns (not 'mids', horns do a much better reproduction job than tinny paper speakers).

mine, while nearly as loud as yours at that level, can continue to be turned up to 80-90% and still sound clean. that means 'not distorted/compressed sounding'.

perhaps you have too many bullshit bells and whistles between your mic and decks when recording, or you don't have decent post-production knowledge.


I master ALL of my stuff with the volume cranked to 80-90%. that's where the warts shine the brightest, and where the worst flaws reside.

WHY?

because anything that sounds stellar with the volume cranked, is going to sound ***even better*** at half-volume.


your recording sounds like it came from the "loudness wars" of the early 00's.....mine sounds straight out of the mid 90's, when shit was still allowed to breathe.

It's your playback system.  Don't need to spinal tap the sound to make it sound good.  Again its an idiotic comparison.   :iamwithstupid:

Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2017, 04:29:21 PM »
DR0000, did you have a low cut on?  You need more bottom end tones.


yes, and even with the lo-cut (at 80hz, -12db), 98hz was STILL peaking to +12dB, pretty much making mine sound like daspys, so I stripped that bitch out.

if you move your bass knob ever so slightly to the right, it will come back for ya.....

looking at the EQ now, with a flat playback. all frequencies from 40hz to 625 are bouncing between 0 (40hz) and +8 (63hz, 98hz, 250hz)....there's not much more headroom there for "more bottom end tones". none are below 0, and none are above +8.

that's a pretty healthy range from here.

for daspys, all of his bass is well over +4...with less bounce. too much saturation, you can't hear strings be plucked, AND his low end makes the mids sound screechy and the highs sound compresssed like a college radio broadcast.

sorry, but that's what it sounds like from here.
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Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2017, 04:31:45 PM »

I guess you are afraid of the competition.  You use  idiotic comparisons like downloads on one site to file size to emphasize your "superiority".  Good luck, go back under your rock.

I already won round one.

pretty sure you were buying into putting your BH up against mine, go read your earlier words (along the lines of you claimed I wouldn't even listen, which I not only did, but I then picked it apart, wart by wart)

neither your kid NOR your ex-wife care for you.


that says more than I ever could.
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Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2017, 04:32:17 PM »
for the record (back on topic)...I'm here on behalf of "team internals".


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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2017, 04:32:52 PM »
Furby buy real speakers or are you just saving money there too.

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2017, 04:35:57 PM »

I guess you are afraid of the competition.  You use  idiotic comparisons like downloads on one site to file size to emphasize your "superiority".  Good luck, go back under your rock.

I already won round one.

pretty sure you were buying into putting your BH up against mine, go read your earlier words (along the lines of you claimed I wouldn't even listen, which I not only did, but I then picked it apart, wart by wart)

neither your kid NOR your ex-wife care for you.


that says more than I ever could.

you won nothing, just a legend in your own mine.  my kid is here and read all this and asked me why you are such an idiot.   You can have my ex,  still better than your 48 year old piece of trainer trash.  I will be recording Ben this weekend twice, indoors and outdoors.  Why did you go anyway, I recall you dissed me because Ben sucked.   :iamwithstupid:

Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2017, 04:36:11 PM »

It's your playback system.  Don't need to spinal tap the sound to make it sound good.  Again its an idiotic comparison.   :iamwithstupid:

I also patch a cd player into the 8-track of the '75 Bonneville station wagon in the yard (with that horribly lossy cassette tape connector put into an 8 track adaptor), listen on the cpu speakers, headphones AND my normal home stereo.

or, FIVE different systems of varying quality, to make sure what I put out there ***sounds good on all of them***

do you do such?

no, because you're only concerned with your limited hearing and what it sounds like to you, because you're all about you.


your Ben Harper is a compressed, burpy, processed mess. (we won't even get into "how the fuck do you continually jostle your equipment during an hour long set? do you have COPD or something?")

them's the facts, jack.

better luck next time.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2017, 04:37:41 PM »
Why did you go anyway, I recall you dissed me because Ben sucked.   :iamwithstupid:


no, I dissed Ben because you suck.

again, comprehension is clearly not your strong suit.

neither is recording shows.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2017, 04:45:21 PM »
Why did you go anyway, I recall you dissed me because Ben sucked.   :iamwithstupid:


no, I dissed Ben because you suck.

again, comprehension is clearly not your strong suit.

neither is recording shows.

Enough of this, you are too stupid for your own good.  Sure glad you haven't reproduced.  Time for you to try and get that  GED before its too late.   :iamwithstupid:

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2017, 05:03:28 PM »

Impressive, you have learned how to access the internet and upload a torrent.  Brilliant.  How about something a bit more complicated that that.   :iamwithstupid:


within 2 years, I'll most likely be creating multi-cam dvds with synced audio from my masters...more than half tripod-shot (not "blair-witch-everyone-with-an-i-phone-thinks-they're-a-filmer" bullshit).  almost always 3 cameras, including a nice Hi8, shot in 16:9, with all the cool and fuzzy filters.


and you'll still be a guy who pissed off his whole family to the point of desertion .....audio taping shows across the world with your "friends", as money and taping are more important than family.


we get it. you're a real catch. thanks for sharing.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2017, 05:08:12 PM »

Enough of this, you are too stupid for your own good.  Sure glad you haven't reproduced.  Time for you to try and get that  GED before its too late.   :iamwithstupid:


Im'a pretty good at math, and by my estimation, my Ben Harper will have more snatches than yours before you take your Lunesta before betime.


less than 24 hours, more pulls than yours got in 2 months.


get real with yourself cupcake.....your tapes aren't all you fluff them up to be....


and, as always, it shows.




gonna check out the internals Ben here soon (except the hottie (she works at a bank, far from trailerish) gets here at 2am, so it might be a week from now, HA!), it may be better than Daspys as well.


now THAT would be funny.


daspy, when was the last time a *woman* was willing to fly to you and hang out in your environment?

just curious, based on what you've said previously, I'd guess a good long while


back on topic: internal mics ARE a viable taping alternative, ***if*** you use the correct deck (I almost feel like the Chewley's gum guy on Clerks, minus the horrific death)
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2017, 10:59:36 PM »
Horns might be more efficient and thus provide more sound but "better" is in the ear of the beholder.

Thus this thread.

 :clapping:


your recording, before the volume knob hits the halfway mark, it becomes a muddy mess. or, it sounds like shit. 

that's with a flat EQ, played back thru a 3000 watt system. 2 1400 watt Crown amps, bridged parallel mono. a couple of 90lb. Yamaha 18" subs. and 2 800w Cerwin-Vega PA speakers with horns (not 'mids', horns do a much better reproduction job than tinny paper speakers).
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2017, 12:37:58 AM »
Horns might be more efficient and thus provide more sound but "better" is in the ear of the beholder.

Thus this thread.

 :clapping:


your recording, before the volume knob hits the halfway mark, it becomes a muddy mess. or, it sounds like shit. 

that's with a flat EQ, played back thru a 3000 watt system. 2 1400 watt Crown amps, bridged parallel mono. a couple of 90lb. Yamaha 18" subs. and 2 800w Cerwin-Vega PA speakers with horns (not 'mids', horns do a much better reproduction job than tinny paper speakers).

I've heard $20K cone-mid speakers next to ones with horns, and they use horns in PA's for a reason.

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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2017, 09:52:58 AM »
For those looking and not wanting to sift through the entire back and forth between daspy and furry, here are the two recordings they've provided.  Both daspy and furry are very opinionated, but you all should decide for yourselves.  Personally, I have a very strong preference for one over the other -- and find the 'other' painful to listen to for more than a short sample -- but everyone should decide individually which they prefer:

https://we.tl/hnxhnrM8h9
https://we.tl/eKlmn3vcjq

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Offline TheMetalist

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2017, 10:08:32 AM »
For those looking and not wanting to sift through the entire back and forth between daspy and furry, here are the two recordings they've provided.

Thank you! Very helpful. I'm almost dying of curiosity but I can't download them until I get back home from vacation (Sunday). I hope the links are still active then.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 10:10:13 AM by TheMetalist »
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2017, 11:37:59 AM »
For those looking and not wanting to sift through the entire back and forth between daspy and furry, here are the two recordings they've provided.  Both daspy and furry are very opinionated, but you all should decide for yourselves.  Personally, I have a very strong preference for one over the other -- and find the 'other' painful to listen to for more than a short sample -- but everyone should decide individually which they prefer:

https://we.tl/hnxhnrM8h9
https://we.tl/eKlmn3vcjq


For those on Dime  here are a few more BHIC shows recorded at a variety of venues.  As far as a comp venue I would suggest Mt. Winery. Bottlerock was the LAST recording made and only one available on my WeTransfer Account.  A number more are available upon request and there are more shows on the schedule. 


http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=576746

Ben Harper & The Innocent Criminals
Seaside Stage
Del Mar Racetrack
Del Mar, Ca
November 12, 2016

Recorded from left side of center rail appx30 feet from stage
Schoeps MK4/NBox Platinum Tascam DR-2D 24 Bit 48K

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=569812
Ben Harper and the Innocent Criminals
Fox Theater
Oakland, Ca
August 17, 2016

Recorded by Daspyknows
Dead center first drink rail

Schoeps MK4/NBox Platinum Tascam DR-2D 24 Bit 48K

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=569335
Ben Harper and the Innocent Criminals
Mt. Winery
Saratoga, Ca
San Francisco, Ca
August 16, 2016

Recorded by Daspyknows
Section 3 Row D just off center (16th row)

Schoeps MK4/NBox Platinum Tascam DR-2D 24 Bit 48K


http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=558744
Ben Harper & The Innocent Criminals
Fillmore
Philadelphia Pa
April 10,2016

Recorded by Daspyknows
Dead Center appx 40 feet from stage


Schoeps MK4/NBox Platinum Tascam DR-2D 24 Bit 48K


http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=558374
Ben Harper & The Innocent Criminals
Beacon Theater
New York, NY
April 7,2016

Recorded by Daspyknows

Loge Row A Seat 34

Schoeps MK4/NBox Platinum Tascam DR-2D 24 Bit 48K

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id= 558344
Ben Harper & The Innocent Criminals
College Street Music Hall
New Haven, Ct
April 6,2016

Recorded by Daspyknows

First Drink Rail Right Side of Center Aisle

Schoeps MK4/NBox Platinum Tascam DR-2D 24 Bit 48K


Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #67 on: July 27, 2017, 12:27:52 PM »
taperdav, you still around?  Wondering if you'll ever dare ask another question at TS after the row this one stirred up!

I strive to capture the moment the way it is presented, not with various whistles and bells designed to alter the sound as we are hearing it in the audience.

Hey Nak, I always enjoy hearing about what motivates tapers to record, and differences in philosophy about doing so.  Mind if I dig a bit and ask a few questions?

I think I understand your stated goal laid out in the first half of that statement.  I take it to mean aiming for reproducing the aural experience you had at the live event, in such a way that the listener can close their eyes and imagine themselves standing were you were when you recorded it.  Is that a fair assessment?  What I'm curious about is the second half of that statement.  Can you flesh out the whistles and bells a bit for me?

Happy to clarify:
In a word, yes.  My personal goal is as you described.  I want to relive the live concert experience when I listen to the recording, as I would hope another listener would be able to feel the same.
As for the whistles and bells, I was referring to the competition.  All things being equal...in my eyes (umm, or ears), would be not enhancing the recording from the sound the equipment produces.  In other words, a simple, straight forward recording, and not altered in post production.
Hope that clears up my thought process, I know I often don't convey my ideas well in print.
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Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #68 on: July 27, 2017, 12:57:07 PM »
I couldn't care less about your feud about who makes more money, who gets more ass or who the better father is, but I was curious enough to take the time to download both of your offerings and sample them both.  All I care about is what sounds better.

The first problem I hear here is that one of you is posting apples and the other is posting oranges.  Get it together and make it a fair competition.   Here's what I'd like to see: Decide on a recording situation that you either both have or are willing to do...and be honest.  Both  recordings need to be either inside (decide on the size and type of the venue) or outside (decide on the size and type of venue).  Next is positioning.  One of you at 20 feet and the other at 75 feet isn't a fair test.

Additionally, you both need to supply an anal report, so we know what we're listening to.  I forgot who's was who's, and don't care, but the one labeled BHIC... had the anal report attached, the one labeled DR0000... did not.  I will refer to those labels going forward.

I listened to both at various points during the recordings in the same manner (maintaining the same volume and listening through Sennheiser HD380 Pro headphones).  Like I indicated above, both recording situations were far to different to make a fair comparison on the equipment used to record it.  I could easily draw a conclusion from what I've heard, but it means nothing because of positioning and environment.  Granted, there will never be a truly fair comparison until both rigs are in the same 1 square foot footprint recording the same thing, but since you two would probably kill each other if in the same proximity, that isn't going to be possible.  Given that you are both overloaded with cash, however, I would propose that you get together in a legal taping situation and do just that in order to settle this once and for all.

I know you are both interested in my opinion, since I gave both recordings a listen, and I will reluctantly give it to you, but not without further explaining that the venue, environment and position means EVERYTHING when comparing sound, and NONE of those things were aligned with these particular recordings.  Got that?  I mean, do you both truly understand that?
That being said, I found the presence of the DR0000 to be very raw and vibrant, while the BHIC was more natural and pleasing to the ear.  Two VERY different kinds of sound, and both subject to personal taste.  BHIC, unless it was something else, try not to touch the cables or allow them to be knocked around...or handle the deck.  I believe I heard more handling noise that I prefer.  DR0000, did you have a low cut on?  You need more bottom end tones.  AGAIN...these are NOT fair comparisons.  Get it together and try again.  If you can't be in the same place at the same time, I would suggest choosing a band that is consistent in their sound and venue type on the same tour (a good example of that would be Phish at the 13 show MSG run...but be in the same location).  Dead & Company is another good example of consistency in sound.  You need to agree on an arena (size matters), and stadium (size and shape matters) or shed....club...etc.

And for cryin' out loud, try and have fun doing it!

***Incidentally, I have no money (due to a divorce and a vindictive cunt), so if either of you big spenders want to help me pay my bills, I'm not too proud to accept the help***

 :headphones: :cheers: :headphones:


hmmmmm. taping side-by-side, to me, seems asinine, as the entire point of ***stealth*** taping is for the taper to find the best position, according to *their* experiences, and to get the best capture they know how. to tell either taper that they "have" to be in the same section of real estate, thats MIC STAND attitudes right there, and we all know how I feel about those......


you call it "all things being equal", and that's one of my main problems with a mic-stand designation...that you're relegated to 0.05% of the real estate in a venue, which is inherently limiting.

OR, if you really want to do a side-by-side....sure...but you'd also have to make that one weighted (30-40% max), as by telling both tapers to stand next to each other, you're removing a component of the stealth tapers life experience. not allowing them to "do what they do", and instead "you stand here". so a 2nd "do it your way" recording should be weighted more in the 60-70% range. as that would represent the full knowledge of what the taper does, not relegating them mic-stand style.

there's no doubt in my mind that my Ben Harper has much more clarity, oomph, range and "breathes" better than daspy's. his truly sounds like a compressed mess. throw in that I can ***see*** the variations on my EQ, and it makes it very easy to explain the *why*

I'm sure daspy has pulled great tapes in the past (there's your 'compliment', pookie), but his Bottlerock Ben Harper is not one of them.  it's "solid", but if it's an example of his unfettered excellence, then I'm snickering all the way to the bank.


oh yeah, never taped Phish or the Dead, and not about to add ramen to my diet at this stage of the game ;)


overall, you have many fair points.....and I *am* having fun, isn't that kinda obvious? :D

also have been known to sponsor tickets and computers and hard drives and software purchases for folks in the past.

'cuz when you grow the  hippy lettuce as good as my recordings, you suddenly have a LOT more friends who aren't broke.  (been told that mine is better than the shops in town, which is plenty good enough for me)


only 20 less snatches, and it's been barely up 12 hours vs. nearly 2 months.

to be fair, mine is a headline vs. festival set, no, I'm not so dense to think that those are equal either.


I have no interest in joining a war between two tapers that I don't know.  I'm sure both of you are cool people, and would probably be friends with both given face to face encounters...That said, I have to ask what part of "I would propose that you get together in a legal taping situation and do just that in order to settle this once and for all." wasn't clear?  My assumption was that you would both record the way you feel best, but from the same location, eliminating all differences other that equipment and technique.  You can still put your recorder in your pocket or wear Sonic Studio mics on a pair of glasses, if that is the way you feel would give you the best results.  Conversely, daspyknows would record the way he feels best.  Keep in mind, your argument is that you make better recordings and your equipment is just as good as a full rig, therefore, that becomes the only differences in this scenario.  Hence, "all things being equal".  What you are both recording is irrelevant, only that it is the same, under the same conditions.  I suggested those bands, because unlike most, they are consistently the best sound quality.

On a different note, I could use a sponsor till I can get back on my feet  ;)
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Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #69 on: July 27, 2017, 01:27:19 PM »

I listened to 1 song.  As I said, it doesn't completely suck but one song is enough.  Has been deleted, no need to waste space.  I think the issue is your playback.  I don't need to turn it up to 40% to get high enough volume here.  Maybe  if you had a better stereo good recording would sound better,but then again you won't put your money behind it.  I will.  If you think it sounds good that should be good enough for you.  Personally, not impressed.


again, you're not reading what I am saying in a coherent fashion



your recording, before the volume knob hits the halfway mark, it becomes a muddy mess. or, it sounds like shit. 

that's with a flat EQ, played back thru a 3000 watt system. 2 1400 watt Crown amps, bridged parallel mono. a couple of 90lb. Yamaha 18" subs. and 2 800w Cerwin-Vega PA speakers with horns (not 'mids', horns do a much better reproduction job than tinny paper speakers).

mine, while nearly as loud as yours at that level, can continue to be turned up to 80-90% and still sound clean. that means 'not distorted/compressed sounding'.

perhaps you have too many bullshit bells and whistles between your mic and decks when recording, or you don't have decent post-production knowledge.


I master ALL of my stuff with the volume cranked to 80-90%. that's where the warts shine the brightest, and where the worst flaws reside.

WHY?

because anything that sounds stellar with the volume cranked, is going to sound ***even better*** at half-volume.


your recording sounds like it came from the "loudness wars" of the early 00's.....mine sounds straight out of the mid 90's, when shit was still allowed to breathe.

Furburger, you like to site numbers and percentages.  Although it is fun to visually see what we're listening to, I find it's like a word problem, and filter out the crap unnecessary in order to get to the answer, which in this case, is how it sounds.  Ultimately, I like to close my eyes and "be there within the music", but maybe that's just me.  You like mentioning equipment, so I'm sure that you are more than familiar with Sennheiser HD 380 Pro headphones.  I mentioned what I was listening through for a reason.  There is no bass enhancement or any other alterations to tone, just a flat response.  That, in my opinion, is the only true measure to listen to something the way it is originally recorded.  That being the case, "[moving my] bass knob ever so slightly to the right" defeats the purpose of hearing the actual recording the way it was made.  This is also why I proposed no alteration to the sound.  Post production, as we all know, can completely change the sound of the original recording.  I would like to hear raw recordings from both of you without any alterations...from the same spot in the same venue at the same show, and just judge based on equipment and technique. Isn't that, after all, what this whole argument is all about?
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #70 on: July 27, 2017, 01:50:11 PM »
As I said before, I am perfectly fine with your proposal nak700 and have expressed my willingness to take the challenge.  Let's cut through the bullshit once and for all.  Throwing stupid numbers and other nonsense out there proves nothing especially when those making the numerical claims don't understand what they are talking about.  I am willing to take the challenge and willing to back it up by putting bread on the table.  No excuses and no deflections of the questions asked.  As we can all see, I am the only one willing to do that.  Number of downloads,  size of flac files and nonsensical pontificating has NOTHING to do with sound quality.  Can we all agree that sound quality (while subjective to a point) is the ultimate goal? 

Straight comparison.  Exceptional internal mics on a DR-2D versus a shitty old pair of Schoeps MK4's and NBox Platinum rig. 

Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #71 on: July 27, 2017, 01:54:44 PM »
Horns might be more efficient and thus provide more sound but "better" is in the ear of the beholder.

Thus this thread.

 :clapping:


your recording, before the volume knob hits the halfway mark, it becomes a muddy mess. or, it sounds like shit. 

that's with a flat EQ, played back thru a 3000 watt system. 2 1400 watt Crown amps, bridged parallel mono. a couple of 90lb. Yamaha 18" subs. and 2 800w Cerwin-Vega PA speakers with horns (not 'mids', horns do a much better reproduction job than tinny paper speakers).

 :yahoo:
Soooooooo true.  And aren't Cerwin-Vega PA speakers made for quantity, not quality?  That was a question, not a statement.  PA speakers aren't made for hi fidelity, they are made for high volume in bars and clubs.  My speakers are the weakest links in my chain (unfortunately, replacing them at this time isn't a financial option, no matter how much I'd love to!), and I'll still take them over a PA or loudspeaker.  However, like you said,  "better is in the ear of the beholder", and that is the only thing on this thread that can't be disputed.
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Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #72 on: July 27, 2017, 02:18:41 PM »
As I said before, I am perfectly fine with your proposal nak700 and have expressed my willingness to take the challenge.  Let's cut through the bullshit once and for all.  Throwing stupid numbers and other nonsense out there proves nothing especially when those making the numerical claims don't understand what they are talking about.  I am willing to take the challenge and willing to back it up by putting bread on the table.  No excuses and no deflections of the questions asked.  As we can all see, I am the only one willing to do that.  Number of downloads,  size of flac files and nonsensical pontificating has NOTHING to do with sound quality.  Can we all agree that sound quality (while subjective to a point) is the ultimate goal? 

Straight comparison.  Exceptional internal mics on a DR-2D versus a shitty old pair of Schoeps MK4's and NBox Platinum rig.

YUP!  I'd really like to hear the direct comparison.  I think it would be great for not only this argument, but the entire community.  Hearing a pair of internals (and maybe Sonics or other mics too), would be a wonderful test.  If actually done, I hope that you would both put up more than one pair of mics, and with no post production, other that raising levels if necessary, we could all hear a variety of different equipment fairly matched against the other.  I only wish I could add my rig to the mix to hear how it holds up.  :wink2:
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #73 on: July 27, 2017, 02:40:00 PM »
As I said before, I am perfectly fine with your proposal nak700 and have expressed my willingness to take the challenge.  Let's cut through the bullshit once and for all.  Throwing stupid numbers and other nonsense out there proves nothing especially when those making the numerical claims don't understand what they are talking about.  I am willing to take the challenge and willing to back it up by putting bread on the table.  No excuses and no deflections of the questions asked.  As we can all see, I am the only one willing to do that.  Number of downloads,  size of flac files and nonsensical pontificating has NOTHING to do with sound quality.  Can we all agree that sound quality (while subjective to a point) is the ultimate goal? 

Straight comparison.  Exceptional internal mics on a DR-2D versus a shitty old pair of Schoeps MK4's and NBox Platinum rig.

YUP!  I'd really like to hear the direct comparison.  I think it would be great for not only this argument, but the entire community.  Hearing a pair of internals (and maybe Sonics or other mics too), would be a wonderful test.  If actually done, I hope that you would both put up more than one pair of mics, and with no post production, other that raising levels if necessary, we could all hear a variety of different equipment fairly matched against the other.  I only wish I could add my rig to the mix to hear how it holds up.  :wink2:

I am more than willing as I said.  I have a pair of MK4's and MK41's but my son's CA-14 cardiods are also here and he could run those if its music he likes.   

Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #74 on: July 27, 2017, 02:50:37 PM »
As I said before, I am perfectly fine with your proposal nak700 and have expressed my willingness to take the challenge.  Let's cut through the bullshit once and for all.  Throwing stupid numbers and other nonsense out there proves nothing especially when those making the numerical claims don't understand what they are talking about.  I am willing to take the challenge and willing to back it up by putting bread on the table.  No excuses and no deflections of the questions asked.  As we can all see, I am the only one willing to do that.  Number of downloads,  size of flac files and nonsensical pontificating has NOTHING to do with sound quality.  Can we all agree that sound quality (while subjective to a point) is the ultimate goal? 

Straight comparison.  Exceptional internal mics on a DR-2D versus a shitty old pair of Schoeps MK4's and NBox Platinum rig.

YUP!  I'd really like to hear the direct comparison.  I think it would be great for not only this argument, but the entire community.  Hearing a pair of internals (and maybe Sonics or other mics too), would be a wonderful test.  If actually done, I hope that you would both put up more than one pair of mics, and with no post production, other that raising levels if necessary, we could all hear a variety of different equipment fairly matched against the other.  I only wish I could add my rig to the mix to hear how it holds up.  :wink2:

I am more than willing as I said.  I have a pair of MK4's and MK41's but my son's CA-14 cardiods are also here and he could run those if its music he likes.   

That would be awesome!  I'd love to hear the CA-14's (cardiods) up against the internals and Sonics.  I have Sonics that I no longer use at all, and hardly use internals even in an emergency, but I do use my CA-14's for stealth shows and would like to hear them compared to the Tascam internals.  I am fond of doing tests like this, because it's the only true way to compare mics and equipment. and have run the CA-14's side by side with the Naks.  OK, there's virtually no comparison there, but the CA-14's aren't bad, and or stealth situations, I find they are excellent.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #75 on: July 27, 2017, 03:06:01 PM »
As I said before, I am perfectly fine with your proposal nak700 and have expressed my willingness to take the challenge.  Let's cut through the bullshit once and for all.  Throwing stupid numbers and other nonsense out there proves nothing especially when those making the numerical claims don't understand what they are talking about.  I am willing to take the challenge and willing to back it up by putting bread on the table.  No excuses and no deflections of the questions asked.  As we can all see, I am the only one willing to do that.  Number of downloads,  size of flac files and nonsensical pontificating has NOTHING to do with sound quality.  Can we all agree that sound quality (while subjective to a point) is the ultimate goal? 

Straight comparison.  Exceptional internal mics on a DR-2D versus a shitty old pair of Schoeps MK4's and NBox Platinum rig.

YUP!  I'd really like to hear the direct comparison.  I think it would be great for not only this argument, but the entire community.  Hearing a pair of internals (and maybe Sonics or other mics too), would be a wonderful test.  If actually done, I hope that you would both put up more than one pair of mics, and with no post production, other that raising levels if necessary, we could all hear a variety of different equipment fairly matched against the other.  I only wish I could add my rig to the mix to hear how it holds up.  :wink2:

I am more than willing as I said.  I have a pair of MK4's and MK41's but my son's CA-14 cardiods are also here and he could run those if its music he likes.   

That would be awesome!  I'd love to hear the CA-14's (cardiods) up against the internals and Sonics.  I have Sonics that I no longer use at all, and hardly use internals even in an emergency, but I do use my CA-14's for stealth shows and would like to hear them compared to the Tascam internals.  I am fond of doing tests like this, because it's the only true way to compare mics and equipment. and have run the CA-14's side by side with the Naks.  OK, there's virtually no comparison there, but the CA-14's aren't bad, and or stealth situations, I find they are excellent.

I do have a direct comp between the MK4's and CA-14's from Roger Waters at ATT Park in 2012.  My son ran his rig next to me from the 14th row dead center.  It is posted on a different torrent site.

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #76 on: July 27, 2017, 03:32:05 PM »

All things being equal...in my eyes (umm, or ears), would be not enhancing the recording from the sound the equipment produces.  In other words, a simple, straight forward recording, and not altered in post production.


This is a key. 

If the argument is I can use cheap mics and process the result to get something that sounds "better" that may arguably be the case. 

If the argument is I can process anything into something I like better than what I started with that's not even an argument because it is entirely subjective. 

My listening bias is that there are tonal relationships and subtleties that are the most essential part of my listening experience.  I know for a fact a lot of people can't hear that stuff.  They don't listen that way or think that way. 

I try not to eq/process my recordings at all.  Almost everything I hear that's been processed gains some things and loses others but mostly just loses the natural dynamics and relationships, ultimately becoming grating or disturbing in a close listen.  I've heard a lot of the output from the people who "remaster" {heavily process} sources.  While a number of people fawn over the results, to me most of them are very unnatural, grating and hard to listen to (worse in many ways than the original).  IMO if one has to do that to every recording they make there's something wrong. 

Some recording situations/mixes leave no choice but to have to modify the recorded result to address issues in the input.  I don't want to rely on gear where I have to address issues produced by the gear itself.

I suppose in theory if it's all there and uncorrupted one could eq and process the results of internals to get quite close to what looks like the output of a high end rig.  I'm not at all sure it would actually really sound or feel the same though. 
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 03:37:22 PM by bombdiggity »
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #77 on: July 27, 2017, 03:34:54 PM »
[quote author=daspyknows link=topic=182924.msg2235581#msg2235581 date=1501182361
I do have a direct comp between the MK4's and CA-14's from Roger Waters at ATT Park in 2012.  My son ran his rig next to me from the 14th row dead center.  It is posted on a different torrent site.
[/quote]

I know what's going to sound better there, but to compare the CA-14's with internals (especially the ones furburger is using) and a pair of Sonics, would be a fair comparison.  That would interest me.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #78 on: July 27, 2017, 05:12:52 PM »
I strive to capture the moment the way it is presented, not with various whistles and bells designed to alter the sound as we are hearing it in the audience.

Hey Nak, I always enjoy hearing about what motivates tapers to record, and differences in philosophy about doing so.  Mind if I dig a bit and ask a few questions?

I think I understand your stated goal laid out in the first half of that statement.  I take it to mean aiming for reproducing the aural experience you had at the live event, in such a way that the listener can close their eyes and imagine themselves standing were you were when you recorded it.  Is that a fair assessment?  What I'm curious about is the second half of that statement.  Can you flesh out the whistles and bells a bit for me?

Happy to clarify:
In a word, yes.  My personal goal is as you described.  I want to relive the live concert experience when I listen to the recording, as I would hope another listener would be able to feel the same.
As for the whistles and bells, I was referring to the competition.  All things being equal...in my eyes (umm, or ears), would be not enhancing the recording from the sound the equipment produces.  In other words, a simple, straight forward recording, and not altered in post production.
Hope that clears up my thought process, I know I often don't convey my ideas well in print.

And also referencing this-

[..]Ultimately, I like to close my eyes and "be there within the music", but maybe that's just me.  You like mentioning equipment, so I'm sure that you are more than familiar with Sennheiser HD 380 Pro headphones.  I mentioned what I was listening through for a reason.  There is no bass enhancement or any other alterations to tone, just a flat response.  That, in my opinion, is the only true measure to listen to something the way it is originally recorded.  That being the case, "[moving my] bass knob ever so slightly to the right" defeats the purpose of hearing the actual recording the way it was made.  This is also why I proposed no alteration to the sound.  Post production, as we all know, can completely change the sound of the original recording.  I would like to hear raw recordings from both of you without any alterations...from the same spot in the same venue at the same show, and just judge based on equipment and technique. Isn't that, after all, what this whole argument is all about?

I asked because this is at least tangentially relevant to the spat as well as being philosophically interesting to me, and although I have sympathy for your position on this and admire your motivations behind it, I find your goal to be solid yet your conclusions on how it is achieved shaky (and the disconnect between those two things very common). Here's why-

The goal of "sounding like it did there, to me, at that spot" is an appropriate one.  Even though actually achieving that in an objective way for all listeners is basically impossible.  Fortunately we all have a well-honed and super-valuable ability (rarely fully recognized) to overlook all kinds of gross objective differences between the aural experience at the actual event and our meager attempts at reproducing it.  We just need to get enough specific things "close-enough" so that our imagination can take over and leave our critical minds behind via the willing suspension of disbelief to convince ourselves it sounds like it did live.  That's an amazing magic trick for which we as listeners are both magician and audience.

As tapers we are also the fabricators of the magic-trick kit parts, unavoidably.  Everything we do to make a recording effects the sound that we or someone else eventually hears later.  On an equipment level, each microphone sounds different from another, different mic'ing arrangements sound vastly different, downstream gear sounds different, playback speakers and the rooms they are in all sound different from each other and different headphones all sound very different from each other, even to the same listener.  On top of that all listeners are different from one another.  The some headphone will produce a different response at the ear-drum and sound very different to someone else than it will to you. And in most cases, unless specifically and carefully corrected for your own HRTF, no headphone will be "flat" or accurate with respect to the way you hear sound without headphones.  It's not easy to get around all this, and in fact it is essentially impossible at a fully objective level.  Yet we can agree subjectively when some things sound right-enough and when other things sound obviously wrong. We can determine which are vitally important and which are not.  And we can quantify and measure some of these things so that we can adjust and correct for them. At best we can develop an awareness of these influences and work around them.  In practical terms, we only really need to get close enough for the magic to take over so that we can convince ourselves it sounds just like it did live. 

Creating a convincing illusion, while recognizing that doing so is totally illusory and understanding how it fails objectively while working subjectively is an important refinement of the stated goal when figuring out how to best achieve it with our limited means.  Objectively we are forced to admit it still fails horribly, yet not in a way which overly impairs the all important subjective illusion.

I'm not suggesting you change your goal, only your expectations in order to avoid disappointment and develop a clearer and more useful critical view in pursuit of that goal. 
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Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #79 on: July 27, 2017, 05:36:26 PM »
I strive to capture the moment the way it is presented, not with various whistles and bells designed to alter the sound as we are hearing it in the audience.

Hey Nak, I always enjoy hearing about what motivates tapers to record, and differences in philosophy about doing so.  Mind if I dig a bit and ask a few questions?

I think I understand your stated goal laid out in the first half of that statement.  I take it to mean aiming for reproducing the aural experience you had at the live event, in such a way that the listener can close their eyes and imagine themselves standing were you were when you recorded it.  Is that a fair assessment?  What I'm curious about is the second half of that statement.  Can you flesh out the whistles and bells a bit for me?

Happy to clarify:
In a word, yes.  My personal goal is as you described.  I want to relive the live concert experience when I listen to the recording, as I would hope another listener would be able to feel the same.
As for the whistles and bells, I was referring to the competition.  All things being equal...in my eyes (umm, or ears), would be not enhancing the recording from the sound the equipment produces.  In other words, a simple, straight forward recording, and not altered in post production.
Hope that clears up my thought process, I know I often don't convey my ideas well in print.

And also referencing this-

[..]Ultimately, I like to close my eyes and "be there within the music", but maybe that's just me.  You like mentioning equipment, so I'm sure that you are more than familiar with Sennheiser HD 380 Pro headphones.  I mentioned what I was listening through for a reason.  There is no bass enhancement or any other alterations to tone, just a flat response.  That, in my opinion, is the only true measure to listen to something the way it is originally recorded.  That being the case, "[moving my] bass knob ever so slightly to the right" defeats the purpose of hearing the actual recording the way it was made.  This is also why I proposed no alteration to the sound.  Post production, as we all know, can completely change the sound of the original recording.  I would like to hear raw recordings from both of you without any alterations...from the same spot in the same venue at the same show, and just judge based on equipment and technique. Isn't that, after all, what this whole argument is all about?

I asked because this is at least tangentially relevant to the spat as well as being philosophically interesting to me, and although I have sympathy for your position on this and admire your motivations behind it, I find your goal to be solid yet your conclusions on how it is achieved shaky (and the disconnect between those two things very common). Here's why-

The goal of "sounding like it did there, to me, at that spot" is an appropriate one.  Even though actually achieving that in an objective way for all listeners is basically impossible.  Fortunately we all have a well-honed and super-valuable ability (rarely fully recognized) to overlook all kinds of gross objective differences between the aural experience at the actual event and our meager attempts at reproducing it.  We just need to get enough specific things "close-enough" so that our imagination can take over and leave our critical minds behind via the willing suspension of disbelief to convince ourselves it sounds like it did live.  That's an amazing magic trick for which we as listeners are both magician and audience.

As tapers we are also the fabricators of the magic-trick kit parts, unavoidably.  Everything we do to make a recording effects the sound that we or someone else eventually hears later.  On an equipment level, each microphone sounds different from another, different mic'ing arrangements sound vastly different, downstream gear sounds different, playback speakers and the rooms they are in all sound different from each other and different headphones all sound very different from each other, even to the same listener.  On top of that all listeners are different from one another.  The some headphone will produce a different response at the ear-drum and sound very different to someone else than it will to you. And in most cases, unless specifically and carefully corrected for your own HRTF, no headphone will be "flat" or accurate with respect to the way you hear sound without headphones.  It's not easy to get around all this, and in fact it is essentially impossible at a fully objective level.  Yet we can agree subjectively when some things sound right-enough and when other things sound obviously wrong. We can determine which are vitally important and which are not.  And we can quantify and measure some of these things so that we can adjust and correct for them. At best we can develop an awareness of these influences and work around them.  In practical terms, we only really need to get close enough for the magic to take over so that we can convince ourselves it sounds just like it did live. 

Creating a convincing illusion, while recognizing that doing so is totally illusory and understanding how it fails objectively while working subjectively is an important refinement of the stated goal when figuring out how to best achieve it with our limited means.  Objectively we are forced to admit it still fails horribly, yet not in a way which overly impairs the all important subjective illusion.

I'm not suggesting you change your goal, only your expectations in order to avoid disappointment and develop a clearer and more useful critical view in pursuit of that goal.

I'm not at all disappointed.  If I were, I'd do something about it in order to be happy, or quit taping.  However, I thank you for your concern.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #80 on: July 27, 2017, 05:48:14 PM »
I didn't think you were disappointed (not sure what that means).  The important conclusion I was trying to get to is in my next post to follow.  Everything we do is has an influence.  That's unavoidable.  Eliminating the bells and whistles is no different than changing anything else in the recording and reproduction chain, and will get you no closer to the "as heard live truth".

Quote
not enhancing the recording
Quote
  In other words, a simple, straight forward recording

A simple straight-forward recording is not straight-forward.  It is an enhancement. 
Just like choosing a different microphone is a different enhancement.

It's all enhancements!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 05:58:57 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #81 on: July 27, 2017, 05:50:14 PM »
The conclusion of my bigger post above-

In light of that, with regards to the subjective illusion of "sounding like it did there", I consider post-productions manipulations to be essentially no different than choosing to use different microphones, or different preamps or recorders, or even where to stand in the venue when making the recording.   All those things affect what the end listener hears.  We can't get around or avoid any of them in our efforts to get it "sounding like it did there", a reference which resides only in our memory of the event, and of other similar events we've experienced in the past.  Change a microphone, change EQ, change where you stand to record, all are changing the end listening experience in inevitable ways, no one combination is  objectively truthful, and all those aspects are essentially the same type of manipulation when viewed this way.

Eliminating post production "bells and whistles" from the equation is essentially useful only for tapers trying to level the playing field in their efforts to better assess the influence of gear- how does this microphone sound different that that one?  That's very useful for tapers in selecting the gear and methods they use, but it's elimination is not getting any closer to "how it actually sounded there" in an objective sense, even though it at first seems reasonable that it would be that way.

A convincing illusion is the main goal.  Assessing gear differences and technique differences are minor taper-centric goals nobody but tapers really care about. How to get there is the challenge.  Everything in between the live performance itself and the listener experience of it later via our recordings are manipulations which either help or hinder the achievement of the main goal.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #82 on: July 27, 2017, 05:56:51 PM »
Ahh, now I get what you were referring to.

Not implying that you are disappointed.  Only that expecting a simple non-post produced recording to be an accurate reproduction of what was heard live is a false hope.  It's a great help in assessing the influence of the tools used to make the simple recording, but its not a path to a more accurate "documentation of what was heard live".
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #83 on: July 27, 2017, 05:59:02 PM »
Everything in between the live performance itself and the listener experience of it later via our recordings are manipulations which either help or hinder the achievement of the main goal.

I like that perspective. 

I've heard a lot of manipulations that hinder my experience as well as some that enhance.  It's like anything else... 

 :headphones:
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #84 on: July 27, 2017, 06:02:21 PM »
The conclusion of my bigger post above-

In light of that, with regards to the subjective illusion of "sounding like it did there", I consider post-productions manipulations to be essentially no different than choosing to use different microphones, or different preamps or recorders, or even where to stand in the venue when making the recording.   All those things affect what the end listener hears.  We can't get around or avoid any of them in our efforts to get it "sounding like it did there", a reference which resides only in our memory of the event, and of other similar events we've experienced in the past.  Change a microphone, change EQ, change where you stand to record, all are changing the end listening experience in inevitable ways, no one combination is  objectively truthful, and all those aspects are essentially the same type of manipulation when viewed this way.

Eliminating post production "bells and whistles" from the equation is essentially useful only for tapers trying to level the playing field in their efforts to better assess the influence of gear- how does this microphone sound different that that one?  That's very useful for tapers in selecting the gear and methods they use, but it's elimination is not getting any closer to "how it actually sounded there" in an objective sense, even though it at first seems reasonable that it would be that way.

A convincing illusion is the main goal.  Assessing gear differences and technique differences are minor taper-centric goals nobody but tapers really care about. How to get there is the challenge.  Everything in between the live performance itself and the listener experience of it later via our recordings are manipulations which either help or hinder the achievement of the main goal.

It may be an illusion, but I might as well try   ;D
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #85 on: July 27, 2017, 06:06:10 PM »

a simple non-post produced recording {snip} assessing the influence of the tools used to make the simple recording


I'm not sure the arguer/s here would agree this is what the argument is :facepalm: but boiling it down for the rest of us statements like internals are "xx% of/as good/better than" anything from Beethoven's ear horn to Schoeps would seem most testable in those terms if there were any way to test it.  The conflict between subjective and objective seems a little too big in this case to come to terms though. 
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Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #86 on: July 27, 2017, 06:38:24 PM »
Yes of course, by all means.  Not trying to be argumentative or pedantic, I just I think it's an important distinction to make in assesing methods.

I'll clarify a bit (and suspect Nak will agree with this part)-
Post manipulations made on a live recording (let't just take EQ for now) can do essentially two things-  Make it sound more like it did there or make it sound less like it did there. 

Both of those things are valuable!

~If we EQ a recording to restore the high frequencies cut by using thick windscreens, or by having the recorder stuffed in a shirt pocket or whatever, we are making it sound more like it did there. 
~If we EQ a recording to tame PA boom or unlistenable room reverberance we are making it sound less like it did there.

Both are good things when done appropriately and both are bad things when not done appropriately. The first is what I'm referring to as being no different than any other thing we do when making the recording (if we are honest with ourselves). It's essentially no different than choosing different gear to start with, or a different technique.  The second I think better fits nak700s' objections about not "enhancing" a recording in search of the "what it sounded like there live".  It can be very much about making it sound "better than it did there live".   

That's a bit more nuanced and hopefully accommodating.  Both are valuable methods used to further the subjective magic trick.

No hard feelings I hope.

I'm not sure the arguer/s here would agree this is what the argument is :facepalm: but boiling it down for the rest of us statements like internals are "xx% of/as good/better than" anything from Beethoven's ear horn to Schoeps would seem most testable in those terms if there were any way to test it.  The conflict between subjective and objective seems a little too big in this case to come to terms though. 

Yeah, no apologies for the thread-jack though! 

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Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #87 on: July 27, 2017, 07:21:22 PM »
Yes of course, by all means.  Not trying to be argumentative or pedantic, I just I think it's an important distinction to make in assesing methods.

I'll clarify a bit (and suspect Nak will agree with this part)-
Post manipulations made on a live recording (let't just take EQ for now) can do essentially two things-  Make it sound more like it did there or make it sound less like it did there. 

Both of those things are valuable!

~If we EQ a recording to restore the high frequencies cut by using thick windscreens, or by having the recorder stuffed in a shirt pocket or whatever, we are making it sound more like it did there. 
~If we EQ a recording to tame PA boom or unlistenable room reverberance we are making it sound less like it did there.

Both are good things when done appropriately and both are bad things when not done appropriately. The first is what I'm referring to as being no different than any other thing we do when making the recording (if we are honest with ourselves). It's essentially no different than choosing different gear to start with, or a different technique.  The second I think better fits nak700s' objections about not "enhancing" a recording in search of the "what it sounded like there live".  It can be very much about making it sound "better than it did there live".   

That's a bit more nuanced and hopefully accommodating.  Both are valuable methods used to further the subjective magic trick.

No hard feelings I hope.

I'm not sure the arguer/s here would agree this is what the argument is :facepalm: but boiling it down for the rest of us statements like internals are "xx% of/as good/better than" anything from Beethoven's ear horn to Schoeps would seem most testable in those terms if there were any way to test it.  The conflict between subjective and objective seems a little too big in this case to come to terms though. 

Yeah, no apologies for the thread-jack though! 

Carry on combatants..

No hard feelings at all.
I understand your comments, and I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with them.  Both circumstances have their place.  If a taper records something that is otherwise unlistenable, but with proper equalization and adjustments, it is now worth listening to, it is a good thing.  On the flip side, more often than not, I hear someone "over producing" a recording to the point that it no longer sounds natural to me.

Either way, however, I think you may have taken a few of my comments out of context with regards to my original statement about not enhancing anything in post production as far as the "competition" between furburger and daspyknows.  Theirs is an argument about specific microphones and gear, not post production.  Therefore, it is prudent to eliminate all external factors and have all conditions remain the same, with the exception of the basic recording gear and their individual recording technique.  All considered, the only thing that remains is a final conclusion to the argument they are having.

Personally, I'm a bit of stickler when it comes to my craft.  Somehow, I doubt that surprises you.  When it comes to recording, I have the attitude of, get it right, or go home.  Although that's being overly tough on myself and far too critical, it pushes me to do the best I can in a given circumstance (I would sooner not go to the show if I can't be in the spot I feel I need to be in order to make a recording I would be happy with).  I enjoy rising to the challenge, and therefore can not hold myself responsible if I do not like the results...knowing I did the best I can.  In post production, I do not take shortcuts (never any compression or bulk edits), which is why so much of my stuff has never seen the light of day (doesn't get posted).  I'm very slow!  When I give something to a friend to post, already edited, I insist he does not fuck with it, and he put it up as it's given to him.  I do not alter the tone, eq, or sound in any way.  The only thing I do, is balance, if necessary, and bring up the levels, because I prefer to record low in the field.  That is me, and I know 95% (this is a generalization in case furburger reads this, knowing how much he likes numbers) of the tapers out there are fond of "fixing" a variety of things in post.  Sometimes, what they do is an improvement, I'm not judging, only stating that isn't what I do.  I am the same way with my photography, which drives other photographers nuts (Personally, I don't know why.  If they can't do it right the first time, maybe they should be doing something else.).  I don't take a photo and photoshop it (I do not even own a single photo-editing program), and I tend to crop on the fly.  Again, that's just me pushing myself.  I like to challenge myself.  It isn't right for everyone, but I'm happy this way.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #88 on: July 29, 2017, 04:34:17 AM »
For those looking and not wanting to sift through the entire back and forth between daspy and furry, here are the two recordings they've provided.  Both daspy and furry are very opinionated, but you all should decide for yourselves.  Personally, I have a very strong preference for one over the other -- and find the 'other' painful to listen to for more than a short sample -- but everyone should decide individually which they prefer:

https://we.tl/hnxhnrM8h9
https://we.tl/eKlmn3vcjq


For those on Dime  here are a few more BHIC shows recorded at a variety of venues.  As far as a comp venue I would suggest Mt. Winery. Bottlerock was the LAST recording made and only one available on my WeTransfer Account.  A number more are available upon request and there are more shows on the schedule. 


http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=576746

Ben Harper & The Innocent Criminals
Seaside Stage
Del Mar Racetrack
Del Mar, Ca
November 12, 2016

Recorded from left side of center rail appx30 feet from stage
Schoeps MK4/NBox Platinum Tascam DR-2D 24 Bit 48K

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=569812
Ben Harper and the Innocent Criminals
Fox Theater
Oakland, Ca
August 17, 2016

Recorded by Daspyknows
Dead center first drink rail

Schoeps MK4/NBox Platinum Tascam DR-2D 24 Bit 48K

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=569335
Ben Harper and the Innocent Criminals
Mt. Winery
Saratoga, Ca
San Francisco, Ca
August 16, 2016

Recorded by Daspyknows
Section 3 Row D just off center (16th row)

Schoeps MK4/NBox Platinum Tascam DR-2D 24 Bit 48K


http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=558744
Ben Harper & The Innocent Criminals
Fillmore
Philadelphia Pa
April 10,2016

Recorded by Daspyknows
Dead Center appx 40 feet from stage


Schoeps MK4/NBox Platinum Tascam DR-2D 24 Bit 48K


http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=558374
Ben Harper & The Innocent Criminals
Beacon Theater
New York, NY
April 7,2016

Recorded by Daspyknows

Loge Row A Seat 34

Schoeps MK4/NBox Platinum Tascam DR-2D 24 Bit 48K

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id= 558344
Ben Harper & The Innocent Criminals
College Street Music Hall
New Haven, Ct
April 6,2016

Recorded by Daspyknows

First Drink Rail Right Side of Center Aisle

Schoeps MK4/NBox Platinum Tascam DR-2D 24 Bit 48K


so your suggested "winner" is 20 pulls behind (mine got over 100 in less than 2 days, your like 85 in 2 months), so now you're gonna deflect yet again???


classy, that is.


as for all this pre/post production talk, I'll never introduce any bells and whistles between the mics and the deck.....as any of that crap totally alters what is actually heard.

I mainly tape "heavier" music, so leaving the lo-cut in there, which was designed by the mic manufacturer, when looking back over the last 20 years of using it, was clearly the correct decision.

but all that other junk introduced before the 0's and the 1's hit the card is 10 times worse than a little bit of post-production filtration. I use my ears AND my eyes to make it bounce just right.

and my eyes are *not* looking at a computer monitor.

if I was only relying on my ears, I'd never mess with 'em period.

the link of Ben I posted was raw, the torrent sounds much, much better.


and the 'why' behind that was explained as well.


daspy's Ben is fully over-saturated in three frequencies (already previously mentioned), meaning "over +12dB", on a consistent basis. 

if one wants to continue to fluff an oversaturated, compressed recording, that's their choice.


but it's pretty clear that my Anchorage smokes his Bottlerock, in more ways than one.

and that's even with the crowd noise and a near-fight.


without those, it'd be a worse loss right outta the gate.




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Offline perks

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #89 on: July 29, 2017, 11:04:31 AM »
Just putting this out there... basing the quality of a recording on the # of people who download it is specious at best. You could take the same recording captured in 24bit and create torrents of a non resample/dithered version and a version using compressed .mp3 and the heavily manipulated version will get more downloads every time. People on download sites have proven time and time again that quality is not the most important characteristic  they take into consideration when choosing what they will download.
Mics: Schoeps MK5, Schoeps MK41, AT853u (C,SC,H)
Preamps/converter: Schoeps VMS52UB (x2), Nbox (x2), Grace Lunatec V2, Sound Devices MP-2, DPA MMA6000, Naiant Tinybox v1.5, Apogee Mini-Me, Benchmark AD2k+
Recorders: Tascam DR-680, Korg MR-1, Edirol R-05, Sony M10

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #90 on: July 29, 2017, 12:23:07 PM »
People on download sites have proven time and time again that quality is not the most important characteristic  they take into consideration when choosing what they will download.

^
Agree 100%
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #91 on: July 29, 2017, 12:47:39 PM »
People on download sites have proven time and time again that quality is not the most important characteristic  they take into consideration when choosing what they will download.

^
Agree 100%

^What they said!
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Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #92 on: July 29, 2017, 01:15:21 PM »
 ^^^ Yup, no question about it ^^^
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #93 on: July 29, 2017, 04:50:25 PM »
well furby's criteria for sound quality are number of dime downloads and size of flac files (see John Fogerty thread from the past) which are dependent upon flac level used (I always use 8 for highest lossless compression) and neither have remotely ANYTHING to do with sound quality.  As long as he believes his sounds best based on his criteria more power to him.  No one else seems to think agree so we must all be clueless and need our ears adjusted.  yeah right.   :iamwithstupid:  :iamwithstupid:  :iamwithstupid:

Still waiting for him to step up and take the challenge Nak700 presented and if he had any balls put some cold hard cash behind it.  Make it $10, $100, $1,000, $10,000.  Name the number. 

Again, number of Dime downloads means nothing.  An unlistenable first show of a tour recorded with an iphone will always get more downloads on a site like dime than the best recording posted a few days later.  Proves NOTHING. 

Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #94 on: July 30, 2017, 03:37:25 AM »
Just putting this out there... basing the quality of a recording on the # of people who download it is specious at best. You could take the same recording captured in 24bit and create torrents of a non resample/dithered version and a version using compressed .mp3 and the heavily manipulated version will get more downloads every time. People on download sites have proven time and time again that quality is not the most important characteristic  they take into consideration when choosing what they will download.


other than the artist, it's the only characteristic I consider.

why have a hard drive full of dissonant, hissy noise?

will I occasionally snag a sub-par recording for either nostalgia or rarity?

sure.


but because it's 24 bit?  (the DAT/Betamax of bitcount)

not a chance.


well furby's criteria for sound quality are number of dime downloads and size of flac files (see John Fogerty thread from the past) which are dependent upon flac level used (I always use 8 for highest lossless compression) and neither have remotely ANYTHING to do with sound quality.  As long as he believes his sounds best based on his criteria more power to him.  No one else seems to think agree so we must all be clueless and need our ears adjusted.  yeah right.   :iamwithstupid:  :iamwithstupid:  :iamwithstupid:


Again, number of Dime downloads means nothing.  An unlistenable first show of a tour recorded with an iphone will always get more downloads on a site like dime than the best recording posted a few days later.  Proves NOTHING. 


dynamic range and oversaturated peaks are a great place to start when comparing sound quality.

my EYES are telling me what I'm telling you...and then my ears; not the other way around

I can film the motherfucking EQ for 30 seconds with both sources playing, youtube the vids, and use a toothpick to *show* you what I am saying.

this isn't "my ear is better than your ear".

I'm using 2 senses vs. 1. (we'll leave your overall musical taste out of the discussion)

when you throw in that it was basically shoulder-on-shoulder where I was taping from, and it's amazing it came out at all, much less as good as it did.

or, I wasn't even really *trying*, other  than the "getting close to stack" part....and still nailed a damn good recording.

re: trying.....I could have backed up 10 ft against the fence (or not paid and sat behind it) and probably made an even better capture. (always seem to find a group of talkers somehow, but a fence would have mitigated that, my Primus '13 and Janes Addiction '15 at the Loon came out like soundboards taped from behind the fence...NO crowd noise, and the Tascam 4ft. up in a tree)...



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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #95 on: July 30, 2017, 04:36:48 AM »
Just putting this out there... basing the quality of a recording on the # of people who download it is specious at best. You could take the same recording captured in 24bit and create torrents of a non resample/dithered version and a version using compressed .mp3 and the heavily manipulated version will get more downloads every time. People on download sites have proven time and time again that quality is not the most important characteristic  they take into consideration when choosing what they will download.


other than the artist, it's the only characteristic I consider.

why have a hard drive full of dissonant, hissy noise?

will I occasionally snag a sub-par recording for either nostalgia or rarity?

sure.


but because it's 24 bit?  (the DAT/Betamax of bitcount)

not a chance.


well furby's criteria for sound quality are number of dime downloads and size of flac files (see John Fogerty thread from the past) which are dependent upon flac level used (I always use 8 for highest lossless compression) and neither have remotely ANYTHING to do with sound quality.  As long as he believes his sounds best based on his criteria more power to him.  No one else seems to think agree so we must all be clueless and need our ears adjusted.  yeah right.   :iamwithstupid:  :iamwithstupid:  :iamwithstupid:


Again, number of Dime downloads means nothing.  An unlistenable first show of a tour recorded with an iphone will always get more downloads on a site like dime than the best recording posted a few days later.  Proves NOTHING. 


dynamic range and oversaturated peaks are a great place to start when comparing sound quality.

my EYES are telling me what I'm telling you...and then my ears; not the other way around

I can film the motherfucking EQ for 30 seconds with both sources playing, youtube the vids, and use a toothpick to *show* you what I am saying.

this isn't "my ear is better than your ear".

I'm using 2 senses vs. 1. (we'll leave your overall musical taste out of the discussion)

when you throw in that it was basically shoulder-on-shoulder where I was taping from, and it's amazing it came out at all, much less as good as it did.

or, I wasn't even really *trying*, other  than the "getting close to stack" part....and still nailed a damn good recording.

re: trying.....I could have backed up 10 ft against the fence (or not paid and sat behind it) and probably made an even better capture. (always seem to find a group of talkers somehow, but a fence would have mitigated that, my Primus '13 and Janes Addiction '15 at the Loon came out like soundboards taped from behind the fence...NO crowd noise, and the Tascam 4ft. up in a tree)...

 :facepalm:  :iamwithstupid:  that's all you deserve with your nonsense.   Still waiting for you to put your money where your mouth is.  I sure am.

Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #96 on: July 31, 2017, 09:10:11 PM »

 :facepalm:  :iamwithstupid:  that's all you deserve with your nonsense.   Still waiting for you to put your money where your mouth is.  I sure am.


when you come up with a contest with acceptable vs. rigid rules, get back to me.


the tortoise always wins, silly.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #97 on: July 31, 2017, 10:42:45 PM »

 :facepalm:  :iamwithstupid:  that's all you deserve with your nonsense.   Still waiting for you to put your money where your mouth is.  I sure am.


when you come up with a contest with acceptable vs. rigid rules, get back to me.


the tortoise always wins, silly.

Let's hear your rules.  Who makes a better  :zoomie1: recording isn't a competition, I don't stoop that low.

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #98 on: August 01, 2017, 05:42:02 PM »
link expired

R09 vs. DPA 4022 -> Grace V3 -> SD 722 (DIN stereo @ 9')
Same mic stand, w/ R09 a bit lower due to no sound checking; an impromptu recording by conductors request. He was curious as to how the internals of the R09 sounded, as he was considering buying one for rehearsals, music lessons, composing.

Hall,... multi-purpose room at Country Club Golf Course - not a music hall.  You'll hear stuff in the recording, like HVAC.
And, its acoustic music, and not some bloated PA sounds.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 11:22:00 PM by Moke »
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #99 on: August 03, 2017, 09:32:34 PM »
So... Did anyone listen? ^
thoughts??
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #100 on: August 04, 2017, 08:47:04 AM »
I prefer track 2. More vibrant, less noise. The noise floor on track 1 seems fairly high. But, track 1 is not unlistenable and with loud PA music, the noise floor may be less noticeable.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #101 on: August 05, 2017, 04:35:51 PM »
I prefer track 2 as well. But, track 1 has always impressed me, given the $20 worth of capsules vs the $5500 of capsules (or whatever a 402x stereo kit retails for these days).
The noise,... is typical air conditioning noise that are apparent with omnis. I hear that difference in noise a lot as I typically will record more than one source at a time, a card source, and an omni source, and compare them. The noise is less so with the cards, as i was high up, and aiming downward about 45º from horizontal. So the HVAC noise is not as direct.
Thanks for playing.
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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #102 on: August 21, 2017, 03:51:31 AM »

Let's hear your rules. 


for my favorite terrorist daspy....

the #NineElevenShowdown: 2 shows/1 day



I plan on following The Magpie Salute all thru the Bay Area. (Sept 7 thru 12)

BUT, knowing the Crowes like I do, that would be too easy to pin the tail on daspy....I've nailed so many "sweet spot" Crowes recordings, it's ridiculous. shit, my tapes hit etree, 20 years after the fact, and nearly 300 pulls if not more than that on all of them just there (and that was *after* Weber whored them out).

and another couple hundred on dime and TTD.

SOOOOOOO, Mavis Staples is playing a brewery in Petaluma, 4:20 till 9:00pm....THEN Steve Winwood (with Lilly opening) at 8pm at Luther Burbank in Santa Rosa.

the towns are 18 miles apart.

on "terrorist day" (appros, no?)

I've never seen either *nor* taped at either venue (yeah, I'll go on his home turf, as it's clear he'd never set foot in Alaska)

BONUS points for whoever captures more of the music.



one show is GA (apparently, and possibly with free tickets)

will have to cut my cannabis seed buying expedition short, but that's ok.

just to prove daspy wrong.

thoughts?

are you man enough daspy?

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #103 on: August 22, 2017, 11:12:16 PM »
Hey Steve. Make sure when you get to the bay area to tell em you take it "balls deep".
You'll fit right in. Maybe it's time to come out of the closet? And hows those beasters going?
Don't see you pumping your chest about the commercial schwag you grow. Wonder why ::)

Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #104 on: August 24, 2017, 05:05:04 AM »
this is from before I even knew what I was doing with the internals.

werd:

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=599523

internal mic recording from 4 years ago. and it sounds fantastic.

now that I know what I'm doing, this may be easier than I thought.


I'm gonna hit Winwood and Mavis regardless of what Douchespy does.

as I don't expect her to walk the walk.

#wordsarecheap
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 10:39:57 AM by Brian Skalinder »
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people who are fans of the music, they LOVE what I document and capture...people who are fans of themselves....not so much.

Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #105 on: August 24, 2017, 12:46:38 PM »
Hey Steve. Make sure when you get to the bay area to tell em you take it "balls deep".
You'll fit right in. Maybe it's time to come out of the closet? And hows those beasters going?
Don't see you pumping your chest about the commercial schwag you grow. Wonder why ::)


you have PM
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people who are fans of the music, they LOVE what I document and capture...people who are fans of themselves....not so much.

Offline bonghitwillie

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #106 on: August 28, 2017, 09:32:10 PM »
i did not read any comments. that being said,,,  the r9 mics are bass heavy.  a couple of years ago i arrived at a small venue late. started recording with the r9 mics and then switched to the dpas. when i listened to the recording later, the internal r9 mics sounded better.  i now use the r9 mics in small venue close to stage situations and get great results. the bass is a little heavy though.

Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #107 on: August 30, 2017, 04:09:30 AM »
another fantastic recent internals recording:

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=599943


it's not that hard to make them record well.

they easily outperformed the Sonics this night.
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people who are fans of the music, they LOVE what I document and capture...people who are fans of themselves....not so much.

Offline hoppedup

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #108 on: August 30, 2017, 10:56:56 AM »
another fantastic recent internals recording:

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=599943


it's not that hard to make them record well.

they easily outperformed the Sonics this night.

I listened to the Sunday Morning Coming Down sample. Sounds great. Acoustic artists with respectful crowds in good-sounding venues is the best possible combo for a good internals recording, IMO.
AKG SE300B CK91
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CA-14 omnis
CA 9200
Tascam DR-40, Tascam DR-60D, Tascam DR-22WL
↑↑↓↓←→←→ BA Start
         


My recordings on bt.etree
  
My recordings on LMA

 

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