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Author Topic: Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?  (Read 1752 times)

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Offline waltmon

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Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?
« on: July 23, 2017, 11:28:10 AM »
     I am planning to split my U89's on a 24" bar @ MSG for Baker's dozen...was considering trying sub card...curious on opinions..


Walt
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Offline morst

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Re: Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2017, 03:05:46 PM »
     I am planning to split my U89's on a 24" bar @ MSG for Baker's dozen...was considering trying sub card...curious on opinions..
I have a set of Neumann KM143's, but have only used them either on stage (near coincident or split) or very close to the stage.
When I first split them apart, they got very different signals which was a little hard to control in the mix, my new rule of thumb for that is to center them on the loudest acoustic object on stage, typically the drum set.

Here's a link to my LMA posts with the KM143's, it's got a special character so I can't make it behave as a hyperlink here:
Code: [Select]
https://archive.org/details/@morst?&and[]=km143
I checked out the Neumann recording angle finder in their iPhone "Recording..." app,  and it showed that the sub cards would be good angled outward at about 170 degrees!?!

Good luck, and let us know what you find out!

(...shall we start a Team SubCards thread? Is this it? Have I tried searching? Have you tried turning it off and back on again? Is this thing on?)
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Offline vanark

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Re: Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2017, 03:48:42 PM »
The Charleston branch of Team Dirty South runs Peluso sub cards in all sorts of situations, including wide split from the section. I'm sure you'll find a bunch on the archive.
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2017, 05:57:56 PM »
To each his own, but I find splitting mics to be completely asininea little silly, both in terms of setup hassle and the actual results (yes, I've heard many Bernstein sources and the Peluso Dirty South sources). No disrespect to those involved, to each his/her own, etc., but I just don't get it. It creates a huge "hole" in the middle of the recording.

For your purpose, I wouldn't run subcards from there, split or no. I'm attending a few of the shows myself, and was considering just running 22s once as a second rig just for my amusement, but I don't think that will sound good (and they aren't even "subcards" technically). Based on what I've heard from the first couple nights, I think good old fashioned cardiods are the answer for Phish at MSG.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 06:00:12 PM by acidjack »
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Offline waltmon

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Re: Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2017, 06:59:45 PM »
I have liked the card pulls I've heard so far...although I tend to like Hypers in a big room like that...
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Online goodcooker

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Re: Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2017, 07:35:33 PM »

I have run a couple of different subcard caps in a lot of different scenarios. I think the best were up close and outdoors from a distance. I did get a surprisingly good pull at the Riverside theatre in Milwaukee for Panic many years back using Neumann 143s but we were FOB on Zmans stand... so just about as close as you can get without having the line array sound fly right over you.

I would do it for shits and giggles at a well attended show like Phish MSG just to see.
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Offline gratefulbrad

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Re: Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2017, 08:27:02 PM »
I plan on running a set of 143's (NOS) on nights 7-9 Baker's.  I say try it out.  What else do you plan on running?
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 12:35:28 PM »
Inside probably. Outside no.
Although using them in combination with other mics throws all bets out the window.

Not sure I'd run them at MSG unless doing so in combination with other mics, or just for fun to see if it worked.  If I was going to try it I'd run them as spaced omnis PAS, leveraging their subcardiod pattern to increase direct-sound pickup over what I could get from omnis, with minimal angle between them for PAS you need sufficient yet not excessive spacing to get decent ambient stereoness.

The other way to use them is to leverage their subcardioid pattern by pointing them very widely apart so as not to have to space them quite as far apart from each other for good stereo, but that would typically be more appropriate outdoors where room reverberace isn't an issue.  I wouldn't do that inside MSG if using them as a single pair.

It creates a huge "hole" in the middle of the recording.
 
Then space them less far apart, although that compromises other desirable aspects.  Better, fill the hole and increase direct sound pickup by using a third, directional microphone in the center.   Even better, use an X/Y or M/S pair in the center which will provide sharp center imaging to fill the hole.  In either case, the hole becomes a feature rather than being a bug. 

Quote
I think good old fashioned cardiods are the answer for Phish at MSG.
I think this is probably right.

If it helps, depending on the application I think of sub-cardioids as being either sort-of-directional-omnis, or alternatively as cardioids with extended bass-response and better far-off-axis response.
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Offline JiB97

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Re: Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2017, 02:23:26 PM »
having run Cards and Hypers @ MSG I would advise getting as directional as possible, i.e. shotguns or Hypers as you are pretty far back there at the base of SEC 2

that being said, I've heard really good Cardioid tapes made there, so YMMV
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2017, 06:01:19 PM »
Related: All three of noahbickhart's sources are up on etree - MK4V, MK41V and MK22. So we can all go and listen for ourselves. My money would normally be on the MK41V for the earlier reasons stated, but given how the pulls have sounded so far I'm thinking maybe the cards take it...
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2017, 06:31:22 PM »
IMO 4V's always take it  ;D  YMMV. 
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Offline noahbickart

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Re: Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2017, 09:33:47 PM »
I'm usually convinced that my mk22 pulls sound the best from msg, at least on a good stereo. For earbuds or a in the car the mk41v is best.

But that's why I'm using three pairs. Listen for yourself!!!
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Offline morst

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Re: Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2017, 10:53:39 PM »
It creates a huge "hole" in the middle of the recording.
 
Then space them less far apart, although that compromises other desirable aspects.  Better, fill the hole and increase direct sound pickup by using a third, directional microphone in the center.   Even better, use an X/Y or M/S pair in the center which will provide sharp center imaging to fill the hole.  In either case, the hole becomes a feature rather than being a bug. 
Even better still, if available, use a SBD feed!?  Those suckers usually have a big STACK of mono signal in the center!

 :bigsmile:

Yeah, I would not be inclined to run a subcard pair as the only source, if I could help it.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2017, 10:44:21 AM »
It creates a huge "hole" in the middle of the recording.
 
Then space them less far apart, although that compromises other desirable aspects.  Better, fill the hole and increase direct sound pickup by using a third, directional microphone in the center.   Even better, use an X/Y or M/S pair in the center which will provide sharp center imaging to fill the hole.  In either case, the hole becomes a feature rather than being a bug. 
Even better still, if available, use a SBD feed!?  Those suckers usually have a big STACK of mono signal in the center!

 :bigsmile:

Yeah, I would not be inclined to run a subcard pair as the only source, if I could help it.

Spot on.  In some ways, the hypercard center mic I use is intended to emulate what a SBD feed does in providing a sufficiently clear, solid center.

Optimal choice of pattern for a straight stereo pair will always depend on the situation and the room.
I don't own any subcards, but if I did I suspect they might be my go to outdoors for a straight stereo pair.
Diggin' Noah's subcard MSG pulls. No hole in that jam-filled doughnut.
Great to be able to choose between several recordings using different patterns after the fact like that.
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Offline noahbickart

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Re: Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2017, 10:54:20 AM »
My tapes sound good as a direct result of everything I've learned here, much from gutbucket, about the stereophonic zoom.

I took good pictures at Nye and had the SRS bar made for that spot!!!!
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Re: Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2017, 04:10:30 PM »
I agree, I owned mk21's for awhile, and I only used them a handful of times because subcards can be hard to pull a consistent recording with IMO! My best mk21 tapes were moe.@Summer Camp in 2013 FOB/DFC and a stage-lip mk21 source I did!

I traded my minty mk21's basically for a minty pair of mk4's, and I NEVER looked back ;) The mk22's are a different beast though! I usually prefer Noah's mk22 sources too! That said Walt, I WOULDN'T run subcards unless I was in a great sounding venue, or FOB/DFC, or stage-lip and that's about it! I would like to have a pair of subcards though and I'll probably end up getting those Line Audio CM3's if I do ever get another pair of subcards ;)
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Offline pohaku

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Re: Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2017, 06:25:48 PM »
I picked up Bean's MK21s, and it's true, their application is limited.  But when you have the right venue and placement, they sound great.
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Re: Are sub-cards pretty much exclusive for FOB application?
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2017, 09:37:12 PM »
I'm a fan of sub-card.  I doubt that I'll ever go to anything more directional than that. They have a better bass response than the more directional cardioid, and far better response than hypers+. And, I feel they are better for diffuse field recording, as a lot of them exhibit a slight hump in the high-mids, and with better bass response.  The high-mids hump is very appealing in the diffuse field environment, due to the breakdown of the higher frequncies in the diffuse field.
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