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Author Topic: Schoeps Demystified  (Read 2296 times)

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Offline noahbickart

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Re: Schoeps Demystified
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2017, 11:54:08 PM »

here are 2 pairs in action
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v, mk4v, mk22, mk3 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10
Home Playback: Mytek Stereo96> Adcom SLC 505> Marantz Ma500 (x2)> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-400
Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Schoeps Demystified
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2017, 09:15:16 AM »
Here is a comp I did earlier this year between MK4's and KM-184.  Same stand into the same recorder.

Schoeps MK4 > KC5 > CMC6 > DR-680:
https://archive.org/details/dso2017-02-10.mk4.flac24/dso2017-02-10mk4-set2-24bit02_Uncle_Johns_Band.flac

Neumann SKM-184 > DR-680:
https://archive.org/details/dso2017-02-10.km184.flac24/dso2017-02-10km184-set2-24bit02_Uncle_Johns_Band.flac

Thanks for posting this Rick.  Great recording and an excellent comp!
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Schoeps Demystified
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2017, 01:38:51 PM »
I've had fantastic success running a variety of schoeps capsules> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA> Mixpre6 (sometimes with littlebox> line in on channels 5 & 6).

I'd advise the OP not the buy bodies at all of any manufacturer. The Nbob> Naiant solution (for schoeps, neumann, MG, etc) not only provide significantly more placement/mounting options and low pro possibilities, etc, they are also significantly less expensive. A Nbob KCY is around $550 (pm schoepsnbox) and the PFA (http://naiant.com/studio-electronics-products/inline-devices/pfa-phantom-power-adaptor/) around $150. There is no way you're getting a pair of bodies for that. Let alone Bodies & active cables.

As for capsule type, some may prefer Neumann, Others MG, DPA, or AKG. It's all preference at that level. I'm a Schoeps head. But not only for sound, but for non sonic reasons.  Schoeps makes so many capsules (multiple omnis, subcards, vertical and side address & shotgun), buying into their system likely allows for the best fit to any given room. You save up and add more capsules to your rig, the best way to make a great tape is get to the best location and run the optimal capsules there. I find the mk4v and mk41v vertical capsules to make setup so easy for "what we do" that they win out much of the time for me for me.

Also the mk22 is just the perfect capsule, I never don't run it.

My ideal 2 channel rig would be:

schoeps mk22> nbob kcy> naiant pfa> Mixpre3. You could get the whole thing new for ~$2500. Thats amazing.

Whether you agree with Noah's views on sound or not (I pretty much do, though I prefer the sound of the MK4V over the MK22 in most "actual taping" situations) his points above are key. I've owned most of the major brands at one time or another, and for my money the Schoeps are the most reliable and the most flexible overall system. That has changed somewhat with the advent of the "NBob" system for everything, but if you prefer parts from the original manufacturer (generally, I do) then Schoeps offers by FAR the more superior flexibility options, compared to anything.

You should see what kind of mics you prefer, sound-wise, on your own. Mics are situational, as well, so it depends a lot on your specific situations and how much EQ you like to do. My MBHOs have a more colored sound than Schoeps; they are vastly less "accurate" than the Schoeps, but their sound is perfect for certain situations. Schoeps, to most people's ears, have a somewhat less "neutral" sound than the DPA 40xx line, but a lot of people would find those mics "too" neutral for many situations. But those are just my personal opinions. In my situations, if I had to take one pair and one pair only, it'd be my MK4Vs.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline larrysellers

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Re: Schoeps Demystified
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2017, 01:55:21 PM »
... if I had to take one pair and one pair only, it'd be my MK4Vs.

Agreed.

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Schoeps Demystified
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2017, 03:56:09 PM »
I'd listen to rodeen's comp closely and decide the extent to which you hear the differences and which flavor you prefer.  That seems like a really good objective reference point in a fairly typical setting.  The relative signatures of the mics seem apparent.  Nice work there.   :clapping:  It may depend on your taste a bit. 

The point about buying caps only is a really useful one.  Newer power options provide a lot more flexibility these days that wasn't really there even a few years ago for most mics. 

I listened to a lot of recordings when I came back into this to form an idea of what I should get (never having been a "high end" audio taper - Naks were the best mic I used in audio setups back in the day) and from that decided I wanted Schoeps cards.  I was going to buy MK4's but the person on the yard sale I was corresponding with about those (who it turns out was one of the well known semi-legendary tapers of yore) strongly urged me to get his MK4V's instead. 

IME he was right about that.  They are very versatile and always make a nice recording (even in some really horrid sonic spaces).  They always sound better than I think they will (especially when the room sounded bad). 

The V's will give you a little crisper sound and perhaps the feel of a little more definition while still providing a real sounding low end and low mids.  There are lots of mics that can do well.  The extent to which your ears are attuned to the subtleties and how much you value those are the primary differences once you reach a certain point. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline aaronji

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Re: Schoeps Demystified
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2017, 07:12:43 PM »

That has changed somewhat with the advent of the "NBob" system for everything, but if you prefer parts from the original manufacturer (generally, I do) then Schoeps offers by FAR the more superior flexibility options, compared to anything.

Schoeps definitely has many more capsule options, but the DPA modular system also has a lot of flexibility. Full size and compact bodies and P48 (like the old compacts) and PIP active cables...

Online audBall

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Re: Schoeps Demystified
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2017, 08:29:31 PM »
^ No doubt about that aaronji.

I've personally debated back and forth regarding Schoeps vs DPA options in the modern setting, as I'd prefer the DPA route. However, at $1300 per capsule (DPA d:dictate capsules), that is a tough pill to swallow. Even mk4v's new are ~$825/each. Not to mention the inidividual cable costs for DPAs. And there is no used market for the DPA stuff.

I love the variety of options available to us all these days, but I have to constantly remind myself that I'm not (often) recording in the most ideal of scenarios, if at all lately.

/personal ramble



Offline Charlie Miller

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Re: Schoeps Demystified
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2017, 09:19:21 PM »
I never take cost into account when buying mics. I'm not rich but I wouldn't spend money on something if it wasn't exactly what I wanted.
Audio Engineer - Steve Kimock Productions


Schoeps CMC6/MK4 -> Lunatec V2 ->  Sound Devices 744T

Online audBall

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Re: Schoeps Demystified
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2017, 10:39:17 PM »
I'm right there with you, Charlie. I have no problem spending the money on "exactly what I want", but I try to be practical as well, given my drop in concert attendance.  If I were taping nonstop, then it would be no question.

I wasn't being critical of the cost of Schoeps capsules, rather making the comparison that their cost is more than justified these days with the nBob cables and other accessories available.

Offline Charlie Miller

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Re: Schoeps Demystified
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2017, 10:41:12 PM »
I'm right there with you, Charlie. I have no problem spending the money on "exactly what I want", but I try to be practical as well, given my drop in concert attendance.  If I were taping nonstop, then it would be no question.

I wasn't being critical of the cost of Schoeps capsules, rather making the comparison that their cost is more than justified these days with the nBob cables and other accessories available.

Funny thing about my schoeps, I've had them for 15 years and still only have MK4's. They are more versatile than I had expected. But then again, I wouldn't mind owning some KM140's, or 4011's.
Audio Engineer - Steve Kimock Productions


Schoeps CMC6/MK4 -> Lunatec V2 ->  Sound Devices 744T

Offline noahbickart

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Re: Schoeps Demystified
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2017, 01:52:58 AM »
a bunch of options from tonight:

Tedeschi Trucks Band
Beacon Theater
New York; NY
October 10, 2017

Source:    Schoeps mk22 (21cm @ 110 degrees) > Nbob KCY> Naint PFA> SD mixpre6 +
       Schoeps mk8/mk4v (m/s) > Nbob KCY> Naint PFA> SD mixpre6+
Location: FOB, LOC
Transfer: SD Mixpre6> USB-C> Macbook Pro> Reaper (DSP)> Sound Studio (Tracking & Fades)> xAct (Flacing)

Recorded by phishrabbi <noahbickart@gmail.com>

mk22 + mk4v/mk8 (M/S) mp3: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6ecgYs1s6XudUZtS1BDZVFWNkk
mk22 + mk4v/mk8 (M/S) 16bit: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=595577
mk22 + mk4v/mk8 (M/S) 24bit: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=595578
mk22 16bit: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=595579
mk22 24bit: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=595580
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v, mk4v, mk22, mk3 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10
Home Playback: Mytek Stereo96> Adcom SLC 505> Marantz Ma500 (x2)> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-400
Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Schoeps Demystified
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2017, 10:31:54 AM »
I also have been trying various Schoeps capsules. My favorites are the MK22s and Mk4s in smaller venues and the MK41's in larger venues. Not sure where the "muddy" concept comes from.

It comes from a clueless internal mic taper.  I run  >:D and generally use MK4's when I am in small venues, theaters and outdoors.  I run MK41s in stadiums, arenas from about 25 rows back or further and stadiums. 

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Schoeps Demystified
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2017, 11:11:43 AM »
Seems that the similarities between Schoeps caps are greater than the differences, I've only owned 4v 41v and 41 and like them all, but for me the go to cap is the 4v for ease of  >:D in a Kangol, the bar just fits so well in the cap. I wouldn't really recommend the hyper caps for close up work I do notice the diminished low end, but for distance work love either 41 or 41v.


If you're gonna do stealth work 4v>nbob>naiant IPA>small deck can't be beat. Small deck Like tascam dr2d, Edirol or Sony m10 all of which can still be found with a bit of effort. I'd substitute the MP3 and a pair of pfas if you're not stealthing. As others have said, you can pick up a matched dpair of 4v from Europe for around 1300, nbobs for 600, IPA for 120 and deck for 200 or so, and easily ring in under 2500. Substitute pfas and an MP3 for the IPA/tiny deck and you're still going to come in just a bit over 2500 that is amazing. I don't even want to think about what 4011>v2>benchmark ad>portadat cost me back in the day. You can get 90% of that sound for 1/4 the cost now.

Ymmv but I find the Schoeps genuine cables to be way too stiff for  >:D work, I prefer nbobs and have had nothing but reliability.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 11:21:56 AM by MakersMarc »
Mk4v/41v>Nbob kcy x2>nbox platinum/Naiant PFA/Naiant IPA>Oade warm mod Marantz 661 x2/Sony pcm m10x3

Offline krowllaw

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Re: Schoeps Demystified
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2017, 01:23:39 PM »
All very helpful, thank you very much!  I just found out my distributor contact went on vacation so I have a few more days to think about it.  I used to love stealth recording (someone please enhance my JGB final show warfield 4/23/95!) but I’m not sure how often I’ll do it now.  I’m waiting to see what discount I get on the Schoeps capsules and that will probably dictate my decision. 

Again, thanks so much.  I spent two weeks researching and you guys managed to surpass that knowledge in two days. 

Offline rippleish20

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Re: Schoeps Demystified
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2017, 01:37:49 PM »
All very helpful, thank you very much!  I just found out my distributor contact went on vacation so I have a few more days to think about it.  I used to love stealth recording (someone please enhance my JGB final show warfield 4/23/95!) but I’m not sure how often I’ll do it now.  I’m waiting to see what discount I get on the Schoeps capsules and that will probably dictate my decision. 

Again, thanks so much.  I spent two weeks researching and you guys managed to surpass that knowledge in two days.

Schoeps has set pricing so it's hard to ge ta "discount" if you purchase through someone in the US. I also suggest looking into buying them from Europe. My 4v's were $1310 for a matched pair (although the Euro is worth more now)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 02:35:52 PM by rippleish20 »
MK22's / MK41's / MK41v's / MK4v's / MK4's / AKG C480Bs+ck61, ck63 / Telefunken FET M60 Cards and Hypers / AT853s
KCY 250/5 and Nbob KCY (x2) > naiant PFA or IPA or Nbox  / SP-SPSB-11 Battery Box
Zoom F8 / Sony M-10 / Mixpre-6 / Tascam DR-100mkIII

 

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