Topic: Best Interconnects?

[pyiteac]

What do you think is the best interconnects?

I have a set of 1' Zaolla Silver's  to connect my CMC6 bodies to my V2 and a set of Kimber Kables Tonik's to go RCA from my V2 to my (with a RCA>1/8" adapter) MR-1. 

I very happy with this set up but are there better interconnects out there for the money?  I know you can spend a ton of money on cables ($1000+ for 1.5' Kimber KS-1030).  What else is out there?

[willndmb]

depends on your ears
my ears don't justify spending $1000 on a cable
my $100 dogstars i think sound just as good as many more expensive cables
your ears might be able to tell a difference though

[TNJazz]

What do you think is the best interconnects?

One that passes signal.

[stirinthesauce]

What do you think is the best interconnects?

One that passes signal.

x2
 

[boojum]

Interconnects are not that hard to build.  It is fun, you save money and learn a new trade.   

[pyiteac]

What do you think is the best interconnects?

One that passes signal.

True but do you think the quality of the interconnect will affect the final sound of your recording?  I'm a firm believer that it will.  It's like fighting a house fire with a garden hose.  It will put water on it but will it get the job done?

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

copper

I was going to say gold alloy 

[TNJazz]

What do you think is the best interconnects?

One that passes signal.

True but do you think the quality of the interconnect will affect the final sound of your recording?  I'm a firm believer that it will.  It's like fighting a house fire with a garden hose.  It will put water on it but will it get the job done?

There are too many other variables that make more of an impact than the cable.  Besides, it all comes down to personal preference in the end anyway, just like everything else in the audio world.

Personally I don't buy the silver hype.  I'm perfectly happy with high grade Mogami cable.  My clients are happy and that's all that matters to me. 

There's something to be said about buying cable that's well constructed, well shielded, etc. of course.  I would prefer Mogami or Canare over Hosa, but at the end of the day if it gets a clean signal from point A to point B, it's done it's job in my book.

[Church-Audio]

What do you think is the best interconnects?

One that passes signal.

True but do you think the quality of the interconnect will affect the final sound of your recording?  I'm a firm believer that it will.  It's like fighting a house fire with a garden hose.  It will put water on it but will it get the job done?

This is an age old argument. That has never been proven to my ears. Good cables produce good signals.. That is true but in my mind we are talking about basic cable construction. Any good cable with good shield and good materials will pass the signal just as good as any super duper expensive cable will. If the "cable guys" lol... could prove otherwise they would be millionaires.. But they cant nobody has ever done a test to prove it * I am talking about listening tests here.

The main huge problem with testing cables is this.. How can you switch them in and out of a system super fast so that one can hear the difference.. We all think our memory is very good when it comes to sound but that's not true when it comes to perceived differences. We can be fooled into thinking there is a difference when there is not. I still challenge anyone to do a simple test...

Lets take a cd player and a recorder with 3 pairs of cables and do a double blind test... I am sure if the magic cables make that much of a difference we should be able to hear it. Even with a cd player and a recorder. But again nobody has taken me up on this challenge..

Don't waste your money on cables. Get well made cables with good wire * mogami * belden * canare * and call it a day. And your interconnects or connectors are only as good as the pins on you mics or the jacks in your gear. And the best cable in the world is not going to make your signal any better then a good belden or mogami cable will.

Chris

[Chilly Brioschi]

Don't waste your money on cables. Get well made cables with good wire * mogami * belden * canare * and call it a day. And your interconnects or connectors are only as good as the pins on you mics or the jacks in your gear. And the best cable in the world is not going to make your signal any better then a good belden or mogami cable will.

Chris

Agreed 100%

No one has ever given me quantifiable proof that "high-end" cables do anything different than properly made interconnects.
And that goes double for digital interconnects.


One side note, however, I have found that applying this stuff to connectors can really even out the tone, extend dynamics, and make the sound quality more musical:

[newplanet7]

Make some yourself.
It's really not hard.
I made some silvers when I switched from canare.
No noticeable difference that I can tell.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

The main huge problem with testing cables is this.. How can you switch them in and out of a system super fast so that one can hear the difference..

Like this: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,53904.msg703748.html#msg703748 

I still challenge anyone to do a simple test...
Chris

I still hold open my offer to anyone who would like come over for an afternoon of listening and I'll gladly repeat this test and please bring as many as you want of your own pairs of cables to try.


Don't get me wrong Chris, I take no issue with your statement that you have never heard a difference and I agree with most of your statements regarding quality.  However I have heard a difference in my system.

[Chilly Brioschi]

Don't get me wrong Chris, I take no issue with your statement that you have never heard a difference and I agree with most of your statements regarding quality.  However I have heard a difference in my system.

If nothing else, you are in good company.
If you read a copy of Audiophile, or attend a high-end show you will find many who will agree with you.

Personally, I have never heard a difference once a somewhat basic minimum standard is reached on a 3 foot interconnect.

To my knowledge, no one has delivered a spectrograph, waveform, or other piece of concrete physical evidence to show that any cable can deliver on the promises many make.
I have read metallurgical analysis, electromagnetic analysis, etc. of many brands with special shapes and kinds of wire and none seem to deliver a measurable end-result.
We are able to slice and dice an audio-level signal with great precision these days.
"Seeing" what we hear isn't a futuristic science, it has been done for decades, with improvements all along the way.
If spending a week in the lab could demonstrate that an interconnect is worth $1000, I'm sure that we would not have to look to hard to find that report.
I am reasonably sure that the "magic" cable doesn't exist, but always keep an open mind.

If you are anywhere near NYC, I'll take you up on the interconnect challenge.
I have a trip to two showrooms, on in Manhattan, and the other in Philly to listen a bit deeper.
Both have salesmen who absolutely insist that I will hear the difference.
While I doubt that I will hear anything, the showrooms will be a great way to spend a rainy day!

[Nick's Picks]

just for the sake of purpose...., I like to keep the wire all the same as much as possible.
I am a believer in wire making a difference.  No need to spend shitloads, but quality construction makes a difference (and i'm not talking about jack-asses like myself re-packaging an existing cable), but the cable construction from the ground up.

[Chilly Brioschi]

Nothing wrong with re-purposing good old wire, and I hear that your construction is good, so I wouldn't be too down on your Hydras, Nick.

OK, how about this for a wire tweak!?:

http://cgi.ebay.com/THE-TESLA-SHIELD-1-PERSONAL-ENERGY-ENHANCEMENT-DEVICE_W0QQitemZ140253341536QQihZ004QQcategoryZ1277QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Busman Audio]

Ok I will bite..

I do hear differences in quality wire as opposed to regular old mogami, canare stuff. I know that a lot of others here have heard some of the differences between these and silver wire also so it is a pretty well documented topic that different wire has different tonal qualities to it. The scientific data does not need to be there for you to hear things with your ears.

I have chosen to use van den Hul wire even to wire all my internal wiring in my mics. The reason.... there is a big difference. The signal becomes more defined in all frequencies, along with making it feel more open ( which of course comes from the extended definition), Also there is a quite a bit less audible distortion to the signal.  Now, this is the difference between the standard copper wiring inside the mics and the van den Hul MCS-150m wire. To me it was a night and day difference. If I feel my guitar chops are up to posting for the world to hear I will get some examples up soon.

I listen on studio monitors or my Thiel home speakers to hear these differences. You will not hear any differences if you use computer speakers, mp3 files, or the general consumer gear so if you don't use good playback equipment, then high end cables are a hard sell.

I have come up with a good example using basic physics.  Think of a water hose that has small obstructions inside it.. The water will flow but not efficiently. It could warm up or cool down due to the blockages in the hose which also changes the quality of the water and if the hose is not the best material maybe it will pick up trace chemicals or particulates along the way.  You will still get water but not the same water that came from the tap.
Now picture a really nice hose with no obstructions and made of the best materials known to allow smooth transmission of your water supply. This hose will give you the water more efficiently with a better flow and hopefully less particulate matter than the cheap hose, you will end  up with a much closer match to the water that came out of the tap than the hose with obstructions a shabby materials. This doesn't even bring into account the workmanship of the ends of the hoses.

Wouldn't you chose the better more expensive hose if you needed the higher quality and efficency??

There really are differences in quality and signal character cables....   Please always remember to use your ears for music first!!

my 2 pennies

[Dede2002]

I've been dealing with this cable thing since my old audiophile era. Yes, I did hear some differences sometimes. Not all the time.
Anyway, my conclusion is that the final sound quality in a given sound system ( recording or not) will be as good as your worst link, not your best. My mics are originally wired with Mogami cable. So I'm using the very same cable as interconnect. That being said, I'm sure the sound quality of my recordings would not improve if I replace my Preamp > Recorder cable with a more expensive cable.
My 0.00000000002 cents.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Benched,

I'm in Northern VA, 3hrs south of Philly so not exactly pop-by distance but please feel free to PM me for my phone number if you think you'll be around here.

I absolutely agree that if something can be heard, one should be able to measure that difference.  I would love to do some lab tests as suggested but I'm not sure I have the right equipment.  I have access to spectrum analyzers and assorted test equipment but its all designed for work at L-Band frequencies.  I'm not sure it will do what we want.  

The reason I jump in on these threads is because whenever someone starts asking about cables there is a predictable pause to let people speak their opinions and then the same tired comments start coming out about wire differences can't be tested using a valid fixture or nothing could be distinguished .  I jump in doing my best to provide an example of a workable test evnvironment that can be reproduced by anyone and describe how I compensate for possible variations in the IO ports.

I'll admit that what I hear may be psychological but if it is the effect sure isnt' related to price because a follow up to the linked test was made with 4 cable pairs and I ended up selling a pair and keeping a pair that cost half as much.  I'm willing to accept that some of the cables may have been defective or poorly constructed, or whatever anyone wants to blame it one.  But I have heard a difference in my system, whatever the reason.  And it wasn't always the case before I got to a certain level of playback gear. 

So when you go to your listening sessions, you should definitely get them to demonstrate differences in wire if they claim that wire matters.  One possible test fixture would be to run SPDIF coax and SPDIF optical out of the same transport into two identical DACs because most transports offer dual outputs, then compare the sound of interconnects between the two DACs and a preamp.  If any cable skeptics discount this proposed fixture on the basis of optical verses coax digital cable, I will surely laugh my balls off.   If you can get the shop to do this, you can use the same interconnects in both runs initially to test that there is no percieved difference in sound, then start swapping wires.  I'd love to read a full report of the gear you tried and what you thought, even if you heard no difference.

I'll also admit that the audio industry is rife with BS so I'm not sure Audiophile Mag is necessarily good company to be in with. 

[Busman Audio]

I will say that I have run some low end spectrum analysis on some of my tests in my studio and do see the difference from just the wire.  Again I really will provide this.  the problem I have with doing the work is that people then just say "oh you doctored this soemhow" 

Also, it's not that big of a deal to me that some can't hear the differences. I usually just think that it is too bad that some can't hear it because it is there and I also couldn't begin to say who's claims are bs and who's aren't. I am one of the firm believers that I have to hear it for myself to believe it. I didn't believe cable could make a difference until I started wiring my mics with the van den Hul wire and now I am a true believer. Why else would I spend $50 a meter on wire for my products if I really didn't believe it changed it. I could stick with the old wire and make that much more profit.
I want to hear the very best sound that I can out of my mics so therefore I do everything that I can with listening tests for each change to verify that the changes are worth my time and money.

I don't ever think we will all agree but it is always worth discussions to hear all theories. This is how we all gain knowledge about what we use.

I would love to see truly scientific tests if people have the time and energy to devote to them.

[Church-Audio]

The simplest test is this

Take a pair of cables plug them into a cd player out of the cd player into a recorder. And make three wav files one with expensive cables one with cheap cables and one with quality mogami cable. Then post the wav files and we can all take a listen. Using a spectrum analyzer is a waste of time. Why because if there was a difference dont you think that the guys that sell the $3000 cables would already have these graphs? They dont because there is no difference between a quality cable and the snake oil some of these guys sell. So although some of you claim to be able to hear a difference I would love to know how you conducted your listing tests because in the time it takes to swap cables out you have already forgotten how it sounded and if you did not you have a spectrum analyser for a brain.. And I hate to break it to you but nobody has a spectrum analyser for a brain. The other factor with doing these tests is the load if you change the load on a cable and how it reacts then you cant possibly get reliable results from analysing the signal unless you use a prerecorded source ( with the three cables ) and simply play it back through the same signal chain into your analyser to remove the load factor as an influence on the signal because the same factor would apply to each of the three recordings.

Chris

[Chilly Brioschi]

Proper interconnects are 300 ohm, I think.
I have heard 75 and 150 from some manufacturers.
At 3 meters of wire, relative to audio frequency, even up to 40KHz, it shouldn't matter at all by generally accepted calculations.

I have always had decent gear, Dynas of various types, some Hafler, broadcast surplus, and now a JoLida with some cap upgrades.

My scrapbox has had various types of wire from pure silver (JAN surplus silver wire used to be cheap-ish), plated, nearly any gauge of copper,  hardlines of various types, uhf low loss coax at 75 ohms, microwave surplus, all manners of twisted-pairs (these I still find noisy), bits and pieces,.... in short, all sorts of stuff.

Needless to say, I have tried all that I could, and in various combinations.

That was back in the days when my hearing tested very well, and I
was able to demonstrate absolute pitch.
I never heard any wire make a significant improvement or degradation, except when unshielded wire caused noise.

These days, my hearing is more acute, but technically failing.
That is, I know more about what to listen for, and what I am hearing, but have less "bio-machinery" to hear it.

I will always keep an open mind, but I would love to see a phase-plot, or something that will show why a piece of wire can be worth so much. Until I hear it, or see something that I can logically connect to a psycho-acoustic difference, I am a doubter.

[sygdwm]

going by busman's analogy of the garden hoses, would there be a difference (perceived or scientific) in passing analog signals vs. digital (1/0) on different cables? it seems to me that in the analog domain there could be more of a difference (perceived or not) than a digi cable passing data. no?

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

So although some of you claim to be able to hear a difference I would love to know how you conducted your listing tests because in the time it takes to swap cables out you have already forgotten how it sounded and if you did not you have a spectrum analyser for a brain..
Chris

Chris, I have to assume that "some of you" wasn't directed my way since I have clearly described my test environment, how I eliminated the issue of cable swapping and auditory memory, and how I compensated for the incredibly tiny possibility that either parallel output or parallel input might produce some variation?  You keep posting as if there is no possible way to swap between two signal paths without the latency issues - issues on which I completely agree with you.  If you feel that is not a valid arrangement, I'm open to comments.

Do you think that my suggestion above regarding the parallel DACs is not a valid configuration for Benched to use when he visits the listening room?  Would you care to address directly why this sort of fixture might not be a valid test case?  Personally I like it a lot better than swapping wires but for completely different reasons than you wrote.  I always suspect some funny business might be happening behind the scenes when the cables are swapped around behind gear. 

Your suggested test (listening to samples) is potentially valid however it is completely open to scepticism because people will argue that if you hear no difference it is because your playback system is lacking.  So even your recommended test lacks the validity of pure measurement.  Any test that involves the human ear as the sampling device is trivial to argue against.


It seems like a sample by sample comparison or plot would yield the most precise analysis.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

would there be a difference (perceived or scientific) in passing analog signals vs. digital (1/0) on different cables?

Yes.  Construction defects can increase the probability of bit errors in the SPDIF stream.  Some cables raise jitter (I can't recall if it's the optical or electrical that have worse characteristics).  Jitter has been reported to be audible, although I can't say I know what it sounds like.  I believe the issue of jitter is effectively resolved since almost all modern devices have big buffers ahead of the DAC. 

For DTS or AC3 over SPDIF there is no effect from jitter.  The audio frame gets buffered and decoded ahead of the DAC.  The only issue here being bit errors sufficient to cause the audio frame to be discarded which is audible.  We can hear the drop outs when we discard audio frames in our lab.

[Busman Audio]

I also agree that there are possibilities for problems with digital cables but I would not go as far to say that they could make an audible difference on the quality of the music other than artifacts.

I use the analogy of the hose for those that aren't quite up to speed on some of this.

When i am doing listening tests it is after recording then I put the files up right on top of each other so I can start one then stop and start the other with no break in the music. I feel this is as close as i need to get for my purposes. I would welcome anyone to come and listen in my mix room and tell me they can't hear the differences. I usually have lay people come in and listen without telling them what to listen for or even why I really want them to listen. I just say please listen to these files and give me your thoughts.

My wife who I would not consider an audiophile usually always hears the exact same differences I hear and that helps me to not trust just my own ears.

Back to the interconnects....   you have lots of info just take what you can a leave the rest and trust your own judgement.

[Church-Audio]

So although some of you claim to be able to hear a difference I would love to know how you conducted your listing tests because in the time it takes to swap cables out you have already forgotten how it sounded and if you did not you have a spectrum analyser for a brain..
Chris

Chris, I have to assume that "some of you" wasn't directed my way since I have clearly described my test environment, how I eliminated the issue of cable swapping and auditory memory, and how I compensated for the incredibly tiny possibility that either parallel output or parallel input might produce some variation?  You keep posting as if there is no possible way to swap between two signal paths without the latency issues - issues on which I completely agree with you.  If you feel that is not a valid arrangement, I'm open to comments.

Do you think that my suggestion above regarding the parallel DACs is not a valid configuration for Benched to use when he visits the listening room?  Would you care to address directly why this sort of fixture might not be a valid test case?  Personally I like it a lot better than swapping wires but for completely different reasons than you wrote.  I always suspect some funny business might be happening behind the scenes when the cables are swapped around behind gear. 

Your suggested test (listening to samples) is potentially valid however it is completely open to scepticism because people will argue that if you hear no difference it is because your playback system is lacking.  So even your recommended test lacks the validity of pure measurement.  Any test that involves the human ear as the sampling device is trivial to argue against.


It seems like a sample by sample comparison or plot would yield the most precise analysis.

Its not directed at you at all. I think really the best test is recording files with different cables... That shoud expose any magic if there is any

Chris

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

All my playback gear has unbalanced IO so all my interconnects are unbalanced.  Is there a best way to go from unbalanced to balanced without affecting the results?  I have a V3 so could sample at 24/192 for analysis in a SW processing tool. 

Maybe Nick could you send the reality cables down for another test?  My notes indicated a difference in high frequency presence so that seems like the easiest thing to look for first is a variation in the HF chart between the two pair.

[Nick's Picks]

Hmm...
I think I dismantled them and made myself a bunch of fancy power cables.

[jerryfreak]

True but do you think the quality of the interconnect will affect the final sound of your recording?  I'm a firm believer that it will.  It's like fighting a house fire with a garden hose.  It will put water on it but will it get the job done?

quality of the interconnect is paramount. unfortunately, there is little to any difference in quality of materials or construction beyond readily available cheap cables like canare starquad, etc.

as far as bang for your buck, it could be spent a lot better places in your rig.

your analogy would be more applicable to using zip cord or cheap molded rca cables instead of mic cable.

ymmv, but i'd bet you'd be hard pressed to tell a difference between two mic cables of a given gauge and shielding

edit: just read the whole thread, it seems im in good company. i am a firm beleiver that the human mind has the ability to conclude anything it wants when you already spent your money and are trying to justify it.

I tend to go with the cheapest available option that sounds good to my ears. first, can i hear a difference. more importantly, is the sonic difference justified by the difference in cost?. While 'boutique' high end cables, etc may not be entirely snake oil, and theres always room for quality materials and construction, there is the huge reality of diminishing returns, which usually comes into play.

[jerryfreak]

And I hate to break it to you but nobody has a spectrum analyser for a brain.

we'll see about that, buddy (analyzes post)

[Busman Audio]

first, can i hear a difference. more importantly, is the sonic difference justified by the difference in cost?. While 'boutique' high end cables, etc may not be entirely snake oil, and theres always room for quality materials and construction, there is the huge reality of diminishing returns, which usually comes into play.

That is exactly how I feel.  If I hear the difference that is what matters to ME, I don't really care what others think. The point is to figure out what matters to you.

[Church-Audio]

first, can i hear a difference. more importantly, is the sonic difference justified by the difference in cost?. While 'boutique' high end cables, etc may not be entirely snake oil, and theres always room for quality materials and construction, there is the huge reality of diminishing returns, which usually comes into play.

That is exactly how I feel.  If I hear the difference that is what matters to ME, I don't really care what others think. The point is to figure out what matters to you.

I agree in the end its YOU that must be happy with YOUR gear. But I also think that if you can make a magic cable that I would love to hear what your hearing as a sound engineer my ears are very well trained. I still dont understand how your making your evaluation of the sound improvements of the cable in your system I would be curious to hear how your swapping out the cables.

Chris

[OFOTD]

I think really the best test is recording files with different cables... That shoud expose any magic if there is any

The interconnect/cable/magic wheel just keeps turning.

Chirs I understand your thinking as well as your basic test idea.   I think you can do hundreds of tests however you or someone else wants but none of those tests are going to tell someone what they do and do not hear no matter what.   

Busman made several really good points above.  As an example on my studio playback (Mytek DAC96 > Dynaudio BM5a) I have run some of the mil-spec silver wire, a set of AM Excalibur II's and some Canare copper wires.   To my ears I found the mil-spec and AM's (which are both silver) to have a smoother (non-fatiguing)  high end than the copper cables.  The copper cables though gave me what I thought was more definition in the middle.    I can hear the difference.  No spectrum analyser can convince me otherwise.

If I hear the difference that is what matters to ME, I don't really care what others think. The point is to figure out what matters to you.

+T

[Church-Audio]

I think really the best test is recording files with different cables... That should expose any magic if there is any

The interconnect/cable/magic wheel just keeps turning.

Chris I understand your thinking as well as your basic test idea.   I think you can do hundreds of tests however you or someone else wants but none of those tests are going to tell someone what they do and do not hear no matter what.   

Busman made several really good points above.  As an example on my studio playback (Mytek DAC96 > Dynaudio BM5a) I have run some of the mil-spec silver wire, a set of AM Excalibur Ii and some Canare copper wires.   To my ears I found the mil-spec and Am's (which are both silver) to have a smoother (non-fatiguing)  high end than the copper cables.  The copper cables though gave me what I thought was more definition in the middle.    I can hear the difference.  No spectrum analyser can convince me otherwise.

If I hear the difference that is what matters to ME, I don't really care what others think. The point is to figure out what matters to you.

+T

David at the end of the day all that matters is what you think you can hear that's how cable companies make money What I am saying is simple take two good quality cables * mic cables or signal cables * and swap them out one for the other by the time you change them you dont know what sounding like what any more and you are totally biased because you know what cable is what since your the one doing the changing Don't you think some of what your hearing is physiological?

I would still like a real test with three wav files and three sets of cables. I dont have a balanced out cd player or a recorder with a balanced input or I would do it my self. I am pretty sure nobody will be able to hear any difference but we will see. I hope someone out there sees this and has the right gear to do this simple test.

I still stand by my point IMO in the time it takes to change cables NO HUMAN can remember the differences in the cables being listened too now if you could switch one cable off and another cable on * pretty much impossible * then maybe you can hear a difference but nobody can remember sound that well I would certainly think after 20 years of doing sound in a professional setting in the studio and live I would be more then qualified to make this statement... But if you think you can cool all the power to you. I should employ you to listen to my capsules one by one that will make matching so much easier


Chris

[OFOTD]

I still stand by my point IMO in the time it takes to change cables NO HUMAN can remember the differences in the cables being listened too now if you could switch one cable off and another cable on * pretty much impossible * then maybe you can hear a difference but nobody can remember sound that well

I think you may have your ideas of how people are doing their own comps a bit off.  For me I don't feel like I can get a handle on how a particular piece of equipment sounds with a song sample.  For me I take a disc or discs and will listen to 20-30 minutes at least.  In that time I can adjust to the subtle differences in equipment.  So for me listening to a reference disc for 30 minutes, then taking one minute to change some interconnects and then listen to my reference disc again for a period of time I do believe that I can hear the differences without memory loss of the first listen through.

I would certainly think after 20 years of doing sound in a professional setting in the studio and live I would be more then qualified to make this statement...   But if you think you can cool all the power to you. I should employ you to listen to my capsules one by one that will make matching so much easier

I would certainly think after 20 years of doing sound in a professional setting in the studio and live concert field recording I would be more than qualified to make this statement as well...

[Church-Audio]

I still stand by my point IMO in the time it takes to change cables NO HUMAN can remember the differences in the cables being listened too now if you could switch one cable off and another cable on * pretty much impossible * then maybe you can hear a difference but nobody can remember sound that well

I think you may have your ideas of how people are doing their own comps a bit off.  For me I don't feel like I can get a handle on how a particular piece of equipment sounds with a song sample.  For me I take a disc or discs and will listen to 20-30 minutes at least.  In that time I can adjust to the subtle differences in equipment.  So for me listening to a reference disc for 30 minutes, then taking one minute to change some interconnects and then listen to my reference disc again for a period of time I do believe that I can hear the differences without memory loss of the first listen through.

I would certainly think after 20 years of doing sound in a professional setting in the studio and live I would be more then qualified to make this statement...   But if you think you can cool all the power to you. I should employ you to listen to my capsules one by one that will make matching so much easier

I would certainly think after 20 years of doing sound in a professional setting in the studio and live concert field recording I would be more than qualified to make this statement as well...

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you

[OFOTD]

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough

I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you

Just because you cannot hear a difference does not mean that that difference is not there and perceptible by others.

Its very similar to a person with problems with color differences. One person could look at 10 different but close shades of blue and see that they are all a bit off or you could have a person that is unable to distinguish between the slight shading differences and only sees one shade of blue and not the ten different shades.

[Church-Audio]

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough

I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you

Just because you cannot hear a difference does not mean that that difference is not there and perceptible by others.

Its very similar to a person with problems with color differences. One person could look at 10 different but close shades of blue and see that they are all a bit off or you could have a person that is unable to distinguish between the slight shading differences and only sees one shade of blue and not the ten different shades.

If its one thing I have learned its that sound is subjective. I can hear very well and very small changes in sound * I have been tested many times * by bands and by audiologists..* I would love to hear some proof of this magic maybe one day somebody will take my up on my challenge.... Until then I will stick with mogami and monster cable for my speakers and interconnects. I do want some of the magic sound crystals though

[Busman Audio]

[/quote]

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you
[/quote]

You are now saying that it is a fact that cables don't sound different.  With 20 years of experience I would think you should know better than to say that. Not trying to be rude. Just thinking out loud here. I could just be taking it out of context but that is how I read that statement.

Did you not take physics classes at some point.  It is fact that different metals conduct electricity in different ways therefore it affects the signal in some way. This in turn means that there should be an audible difference in different types of cables, also a measurable one.

[Church-Audio]

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you
[/quote]

You are now saying that it is a fact that cables don't sound different.  With 20 years of experience I would think you should know better than to say that. Not trying to be rude. Just thinking out loud here. I could just be taking it out of context but that is how I read that statement.

Did you not take physics classes at some point.  It is fact that different metals conduct electricity in different ways therefore it affects the signal in some way. This in turn means that there should be an audible difference in different types of cables, also a measurable one.


[/quote]

Please lets not get into what I know and dont know.. Lets just say this take two good cables and in a blind test I dont think you could tell the difference but if you can great.. Show me the samples If not then lets agree to disagree. I am not saying there is no difference between a shit cable and a well made one.. I am saying between two well made cables you cant hear a difference. I stand by my words.

[Church-Audio]

A couple of people have brought up the issue of balanced and unbalanced connections.  If we are talking about an unbalanced cable, then the first thing I would do is loop the cable back to the A/D with no signal to get a baseline recording of the resulting EMI spectrum (and converter noise, of course).  That's also useful with a balanced cable, but since the balanced connection should have reasonable CMRR, it will be much more prominent with an unbalanced connection.

If there is a big difference in induced noise, that could be simply attributed to the quality of the shielding, no new laws of physics required . . . it would also potentially be quite audible, and could impact listening impressions of program material.  It's not uncommon for the program material to swamp directly audible hum, while still having considerable noise "hash" in ultrahigh frequencies, which could exceed the level of the high-frequency content of the desired signal.

It could also account for a degree of variation in different systems, since the EMI environment will differ markedly.

Regarding the color analogy, it would be trivial for a high-quality CCD to distinguish between the shades, even if a particular viewer had impaired vision.  And with respect to laws of physics, it is incumbent upon the manufacturer of a cable to explain why their product is superior given those laws, or to promulgate new scientific theories that support their assertions.

If only things were so simple.. The second you do a loop back test you are changing the load on each end of the cable and that in and of it self can change the way the cable performs issues like grounding and its effect on the capacitance of the cable and the resistive and reactive load differences. But if you were to say do my idea you can make a recording with three different cables and use your ears + test gear to hear the differences and you can use a computer directly with out the need of a  2nd analog transfer. That in my mind is a more objective test with no chance of skewed results. But again as soon as you mention test gear some of the audiophiles get all upset and say My ears are first.. I agree Ears first test gear second but one thing is for sure if you can hear it you should be able to measure it unless the magic defies the laws of physics


Chris

[pyiteac]

This has been a good thread to follow.  I can see both sides of the argument, but I am a firm believer in the fact that you get your monies worth.  I am not a professional in this and have a very limited experience using a large variety or cables.  I am much happier with my recordings after I upgraded/changed(depending on your view) my cables.  I used to use starquad mic cables and Monster Cable RCA'S but, to my ears, my recordings sound better with the Zaolla's and Kimber's.  FYI:  I only spent $90 for both sets of cables so It didn't break the bank.  I just shopped around and figured it wouldn't hurt to use them.  Good investment so far.  Continue with your scientific data and rhetoric,  I am learning a lot about the science of signal transmission.  It's cool as hell.   

[TNJazz]

This has been a good thread to follow.  I can see both sides of the argument, but I am a firm believer in the fact that you get your monies worth.  I am not a professional in this and have a very limited experience using a large variety or cables.  I am much happier with my recordings after I upgraded/changed(depending on your view) my cables.  I used to use starquad mic cables and Monster Cable RCA'S but, to my ears, my recordings sound better with the Zaolla's and Kimber's.  FYI:  I only spent $90 for both sets of cables so It didn't break the bank.  I just shopped around and figured it wouldn't hurt to use them.  Good investment so far.  Continue with your scientific data and rhetoric,  I am learning a lot about the science of signal transmission.  It's cool as hell.   

You said you heard a difference in your recordings when you switched cables, but how can you be sure it was the cables that were making the difference?  Was it the exact same rig otherwise?  Did you switch up cables at the show, or are you comparing 2 different shows?  Same venue?  Same band?  Did the engineer make ANY adjustments to the mix that might account for some of the tonal changes you hear on the recording?  Remember, mixing a band live is hardly a "set and forget" process, at least for any decent FOH engineer.

Too many potential variables to my mind, but again if you feel you're getting your money's worth then that's all that matters.

[pyiteac]

This has been a good thread to follow.  I can see both sides of the argument, but I am a firm believer in the fact that you get your monies worth.  I am not a professional in this and have a very limited experience using a large variety or cables.  I am much happier with my recordings after I upgraded/changed(depending on your view) my cables.  I used to use starquad mic cables and Monster Cable RCA'S but, to my ears, my recordings sound better with the Zaolla's and Kimber's.  FYI:  I only spent $90 for both sets of cables so It didn't break the bank.  I just shopped around and figured it wouldn't hurt to use them.  Good investment so far.  Continue with your scientific data and rhetoric,  I am learning a lot about the science of signal transmission.  It's cool as hell.   

You said you heard a difference in your recordings when you switched cables, but how can you be sure it was the cables that were making the difference?  Was it the exact same rig otherwise?  Did you switch up cables at the show, or are you comparing 2 different shows?  Same venue?  Same band?  Did the engineer make ANY adjustments to the mix that might account for some of the tonal changes you hear on the recording?  Remember, mixing a band live is hardly a "set and forget" process, at least for any decent FOH engineer.

Too many potential variables to my mind, but again if you feel you're getting your money's worth then that's all that matters.

I hear a difference in my recordings.  The ONLY thing that changed is the interconnects.  The bass is deeper and smoother.  I get more detail in the low end and the highs are clearer.  Can I pinpoint where that comes from? Not really.  I really don't care where it comes from.  It sounds better to me. I know it's an unscientific argument, but guess what?  I'm the only one who really cares how my recordings come out anyway.  I started this thread to get opinions on good interconnects.  If you don't think they make a difference then why chime in?

[SparkE!]

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you

You are now saying that it is a fact that cables don't sound different.  With 20 years of experience I would think you should know better than to say that. Not trying to be rude. Just thinking out loud here. I could just be taking it out of context but that is how I read that statement.

Did you not take physics classes at some point.  It is fact that different metals conduct electricity in different ways therefore it affects the signal in some way. This in turn means that there should be an audible difference in different types of cables, also a measurable one.

As a public service, I've corrected the formatting on the above quotes.

Oh yeah...  Almost forgot... I have taken 4 semesters of physics.  I also have taken an intensive 5 credit hour course on transmission line theory at a major university from a man that is widely accepted as a leading expert on transmission lines and cables and yet I'm not going to waste my time arguing with an audiophile cable expert.  They are never willing to do the simple test suggested by Chris.  They want us to accept on faith that well trained ears can tell the difference between cheap cables and the expensive cables that they sell.  Moreover, people are often too willing to profess their faith in the experts. It's like the emperor's new clothes.  It seems that no one wants to admit that they can't hear the differences the experts claim to hear, nor do they want to admit that the emperor appears to be completely naked.

[pyiteac]

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you

You are now saying that it is a fact that cables don't sound different.  With 20 years of experience I would think you should know better than to say that. Not trying to be rude. Just thinking out loud here. I could just be taking it out of context but that is how I read that statement.

Did you not take physics classes at some point.  It is fact that different metals conduct electricity in different ways therefore it affects the signal in some way. This in turn means that there should be an audible difference in different types of cables, also a measurable one.

As a public service, I've corrected the formatting on the above quotes.

Oh yeah...  Almost forgot... I have taken 4 semesters of physics.  I also have taken an intensive 5 credit hour course on transmission line theory at a major university from a man that is widely accepted as a leading expert on transmission lines and cables and yet I'm not going to waste my time arguing with an audiophile cable expert.  They are never willing to do the simple test suggested by Chris.  They want us to accept on faith that well trained ears can tell the difference between cheap cables and the expensive cables that they sell.  Moreover, people are often too willing to profess their faith in the experts. It's like the emperor's new clothes.  It seems that no one wants to admit that they can't hear the differences the experts claim to hear, nor do they want to admit that the emperor appears to be completely naked.

So are you a said expert?  I have no faith in experts.

[Church-Audio]

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you

You are now saying that it is a fact that cables don't sound different.  With 20 years of experience I would think you should know better than to say that. Not trying to be rude. Just thinking out loud here. I could just be taking it out of context but that is how I read that statement.

Did you not take physics classes at some point.  It is fact that different metals conduct electricity in different ways therefore it affects the signal in some way. This in turn means that there should be an audible difference in different types of cables, also a measurable one.

As a public service, I've corrected the formatting on the above quotes.

Oh yeah...  Almost forgot... I have taken 4 semesters of physics.  I also have taken an intensive 5 credit hour course on transmission line theory at a major university from a man that is widely accepted as a leading expert on transmission lines and cables and yet I'm not going to waste my time arguing with an audiophile cable expert.  They are never willing to do the simple test suggested by Chris.  They want us to accept on faith that well trained ears can tell the difference between cheap cables and the expensive cables that they sell.  Moreover, people are often too willing to profess their faith in the experts. It's like the emperor's new clothes.  It seems that no one wants to admit that they can't hear the differences the experts claim to hear, nor do they want to admit that the emperor appears to be completely naked.

So are you a said expert?  I have no faith in experts.

Spark'e has forgotten more about electronics then I or most people hear could ever remember. The man is an expert in his field and in the 30 years or so that I have been tinkering with electronics I have never had the privilege of talking to someone that knew more about the subject of electronics then Brad. I consider my self very lucky to be able to talk to him and get ideas from him for my products. So yeah he is an expert and is someone I have 100% faith in. 


Chris

[pyiteac]

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you

You are now saying that it is a fact that cables don't sound different.  With 20 years of experience I would think you should know better than to say that. Not trying to be rude. Just thinking out loud here. I could just be taking it out of context but that is how I read that statement.

Did you not take physics classes at some point.  It is fact that different metals conduct electricity in different ways therefore it affects the signal in some way. This in turn means that there should be an audible difference in different types of cables, also a measurable one.

As a public service, I've corrected the formatting on the above quotes.

Oh yeah...  Almost forgot... I have taken 4 semesters of physics.  I also have taken an intensive 5 credit hour course on transmission line theory at a major university from a man that is widely accepted as a leading expert on transmission lines and cables and yet I'm not going to waste my time arguing with an audiophile cable expert.  They are never willing to do the simple test suggested by Chris.  They want us to accept on faith that well trained ears can tell the difference between cheap cables and the expensive cables that they sell.  Moreover, people are often too willing to profess their faith in the experts. It's like the emperor's new clothes.  It seems that no one wants to admit that they can't hear the differences the experts claim to hear, nor do they want to admit that the emperor appears to be completely naked.

So are you a said expert?  I have no faith in experts.

Spark'e has forgotten more about electronics then I or most people hear could ever remember. The man is an expert in his field and in the 30 years or so that I have been tinkering with electronics I have never had the privilege of talking to someone that knew more about the subject of electronics then Brad. I consider my self very lucky to be able to talk to him and get ideas from him for my products. So yeah he is an expert and is someone I have 100% faith in. 


Chris

I really don't care what side of the argument any of the participants of this discussion is on.  I'm more happy with my new cables.  End of discussion for me.  I was merely pointing out semantics of his argument.  He was contradicting himself, but it was in jest.

[Church-Audio]

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you

You are now saying that it is a fact that cables don't sound different.  With 20 years of experience I would think you should know better than to say that. Not trying to be rude. Just thinking out loud here. I could just be taking it out of context but that is how I read that statement.

Did you not take physics classes at some point.  It is fact that different metals conduct electricity in different ways therefore it affects the signal in some way. This in turn means that there should be an audible difference in different types of cables, also a measurable one.

As a public service, I've corrected the formatting on the above quotes.

Oh yeah...  Almost forgot... I have taken 4 semesters of physics.  I also have taken an intensive 5 credit hour course on transmission line theory at a major university from a man that is widely accepted as a leading expert on transmission lines and cables and yet I'm not going to waste my time arguing with an audiophile cable expert.  They are never willing to do the simple test suggested by Chris.  They want us to accept on faith that well trained ears can tell the difference between cheap cables and the expensive cables that they sell.  Moreover, people are often too willing to profess their faith in the experts. It's like the emperor's new clothes.  It seems that no one wants to admit that they can't hear the differences the experts claim to hear, nor do they want to admit that the emperor appears to be completely naked.

So are you a said expert?  I have no faith in experts.

Spark'e has forgotten more about electronics then I or most people hear could ever remember. The man is an expert in his field and in the 30 years or so that I have been tinkering with electronics I have never had the privilege of talking to someone that knew more about the subject of electronics then Brad. I consider my self very lucky to be able to talk to him and get ideas from him for my products. So yeah he is an expert and is someone I have 100% faith in. 


Chris

I really don't care what side of the argument any of the participants of this discussion is on.  I'm more happy with my new cables.  End of discussion for me.  I was merely pointing out semantics of his argument.  He was contradicting himself, but it was in jest.

What I am others are saying is maybe you dont need to spend so much money on cables. The really strange thing is  people get all upset when we say that... LOL makes no sense to me... But to each there own. I have my opinion and its based on my ears and its also based on the fact that nobody has ever proven me wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt. Its like big foot or UFO'S LOL lots of people see them but nobody has any real evidence. And I do realize your comments were in fun. I was making a point that Spark'e knows his stuff. 

[TNJazz]

This has been a good thread to follow.  I can see both sides of the argument, but I am a firm believer in the fact that you get your monies worth.  I am not a professional in this and have a very limited experience using a large variety or cables.  I am much happier with my recordings after I upgraded/changed(depending on your view) my cables.  I used to use starquad mic cables and Monster Cable RCA'S but, to my ears, my recordings sound better with the Zaolla's and Kimber's.  FYI:  I only spent $90 for both sets of cables so It didn't break the bank.  I just shopped around and figured it wouldn't hurt to use them.  Good investment so far.  Continue with your scientific data and rhetoric,  I am learning a lot about the science of signal transmission.  It's cool as hell.   

You said you heard a difference in your recordings when you switched cables, but how can you be sure it was the cables that were making the difference?  Was it the exact same rig otherwise?  Did you switch up cables at the show, or are you comparing 2 different shows?  Same venue?  Same band?  Did the engineer make ANY adjustments to the mix that might account for some of the tonal changes you hear on the recording?  Remember, mixing a band live is hardly a "set and forget" process, at least for any decent FOH engineer.

Too many potential variables to my mind, but again if you feel you're getting your money's worth then that's all that matters.

I hear a difference in my recordings.  The ONLY thing that changed is the interconnects.  The bass is deeper and smoother.  I get more detail in the low end and the highs are clearer.  Can I pinpoint where that comes from? Not really.  I really don't care where it comes from.  It sounds better to me. I know it's an unscientific argument, but guess what?  I'm the only one who really cares how my recordings come out anyway.  I started this thread to get opinions on good interconnects.  If you don't think they make a difference then why chime in?

Because you asked the question, and that's a valid position whether you like it or not (and obviously you don't).  Or are you just looking for someone to convince you that you did the right thing spending money on expensive cables?

You went from asking a seemingly innocuous question about a HIGHLY inflammatory topic and now that a few folks on this thread have taken the position that "cable is cable" and have asked you how you know it's the cables making the difference, you're getting defensive.  Obviously you wanted someone to tell you "brand X is the best" and everyone else to agree hands down. 

More than a few folks on this thread (some of whom actually make a LIVING in audio) have said it doesn't make a difference and that bothers you apparently, since you now "no longer care where your improvements come from" (according to your post above).

I really don't care what side of the argument any of the participants of this discussion is on.  I'm more happy with my new cables.  End of discussion for me.

Then why start this topic in the first place?  You're always going to get some responders agreeing with you that there's a difference, and some who will tell you it's irrelevant.  If you can't tolerate differing opinions and questions about how you measure the difference you hear, maybe you shouldn't ask questions in this forum.

[SparkE!]

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with an audiophile cable expert.

So are you a said expert?  I have no faith in experts.

Ha!  Actually no, I'm no such expert.  The whole phrase is "audiophile cable expert" and I've found that part of being such an expert is having audiophile cables for sale.  Formal training on the science and physics  of cables is optional for such experts.

I do know a lot about the manner in which cables work, though.  At audio frequencies, you are not going to hear the differences in materials used for the conductors.  (Bear with me a bit and don't just get mad at what I'm saying.  Read on.  This is a complicated subject, but I've tried to summarize my understanding of the subject below.)

The people on here that are saying that it's termination impedances that are most important and how the cables interact with those impedances are right on.  Materials are going to account for no more than a couple 1/100ths of a dB difference in attenuation in a typical 20 foot mic cable.

What does matter is cable geometry because that determines things like bulk cable capacitance and series inductance.  Why does that matter? Because, depending on the output impedance of your mics and the input impedance of your preamp, that bulk capacitance and series inductance will cause some minor shaping of the frequency response of your mic>cable>preamp signal path.  If you simply change the metal content of your cable without changing cable geometry, there's no way you're going to hear the difference. But if you change cable geometry, you start affecting things that will produce changes that are actually audible to the trained ear.  One other thing that matters is what materials are used for the insulators on the wires.  Changes in dielectric constant will produce changes in bulk capacitance, just like changing cable geometry does.  Changes in magnetic permeability of cable materials would also produce similar changes, but most cable materials have essentially the same magnetic permeability, so magnetic permeability is probably a moot issue.  It would only come into play for cables that have ferrites or other high permeability materials involved in their construction.

[Busman Audio]

Nice comments SparkE.  Thanks.

one thing that I always come back to is the fact that not all of the cables have the same wire made at the same plant with the exact same metallurgy. Therefore some must be better than others. Theory...

Like gold jewelry,  Not all are the same, some are more pure than others and this is the same for cables. This is where high end cables come into play.
Just like my hose analogy. The more pure and clean the metal the better the signal transmission. this is a simple thing to understand without any technical jargon.

Again though I think it is up to your ears to hear the difference. This is why some studio engineers and mastering enginers get more business than others. People trust their ears to get the best sound and sometimes we just have to figure out that,  yes some people have better hearing for music than others. This has nothing to do with how often you have your hearing checked it has more to do with art.  Music is art not science.
A lot have trained their ears to hear better than others.   This is why people get paid as experts in their field.

I want someone to prove to us that know there is a difference wrong. As the law states,  innocent until proven guilty not the other way around.

There will always be a market for high end cables,  Why do you think Monster is so huge. they marketed themselves as sounding better and even chris obviously believed this because he says he uses Monster.  So what is wrong with others saying their product is even better if they know it is. I don't have a problem with people using any cable they want but I do have a problem with people just saying that high end users are wrong.

You guys really have gotten my brain moving along these past few days,  Thanks everyone and plus t

[SparkE!]

Materials are going to account for no more than a couple 1/100ths of a dB difference in attenuation in a typical 20 foot mic cable.

Oops...  Clarification: Differences in the metals used in construction of cables are going to account for no more than a couple 1/100ths of a dB difference in attenuation between different cable designs, provided that the cable geometries are the same and provided that the dielectric materials (insulators and jacketing) are the same.  It's not the conductors that make the biggest difference.  It's the ratio of conductor diameter to conductor spacing and it's the materials used for the dielectrics that really matter as far as electrical performance goes.  Even then, the differences are generally pretty subtle and it takes a really good ear to tell the difference between cables of different cable geometries and/or different dielectrics.

[Church-Audio]

Nice comments SparkE.  Thanks.

one thing that I always come back to is the fact that not all of the cables have the same wire made at the same plant with the exact same metallurgy. Therefore some must be better than others. Theory...

Like gold jewelry,  Not all are the same, some are more pure than others and this is the same for cables. This is where high end cables come into play.
Just like my hose analogy. The more pure and clean the metal the better the signal transmission. this is a simple thing to understand without any technical jargon.

Again though I think it is up to your ears to hear the difference. This is why some studio engineers and mastering enginers get more business than others. People trust their ears to get the best sound and sometimes we just have to figure out that,  yes some people have better hearing for music than others. This has nothing to do with how often you have your hearing checked it has more to do with art.  Music is art not science.
A lot have trained their ears to hear better than others.   This is why people get paid as experts in their field.

I want someone to prove to us that know there is a difference wrong. As the law states,  innocent until proven guilty not the other way around.

There will always be a market for high end cables,  Why do you think Monster is so huge. they marketed themselves as sounding better and even chris obviously believed this because he says he uses Monster.  So what is wrong with others saying their product is even better if they know it is. I don't have a problem with people using any cable they want but I do have a problem with people just saying that high end users are wrong.

You guys really have gotten my brain moving along these past few days,  Thanks everyone and plus t

Um actually I use monster cable for my speakers because its the only thick gauge wire I could find in my little town.. So I whent with it. It could have said radio shack lol I still would have purchased it. I use #8 stranded copper.. I am going to techflex them and put fancy gold pins on the end this week and coil them up so they sound better lol.. Just kidding.. No really I did not buy monster cable because of the name it was purely because they were the biggest cables I could find at the time.. I did however let them rest for 24 hours before hooking them up to my speakers and now that they are broken in lol the sound stage is so much better..... sorry I could not resist...


Edit not " cooper " but copper lol.....

Chris

[Busman Audio]

   Good laughs Chris.  I think the techflex will make those Monsters sing 


SparkE,   I meant not only the type of metal but the actual make up of the metals. How pure and also if any of them use alloys even if they claim they are copper or silver.  This is not something I know but I would theorize that this would definitely affect sound quality/color. I mean most agree that silver vs. copper has differences so.....

[datbrad]

Like gold jewelry,  Not all are the same, some are more pure than others and this is the same for cables.

This is one of the best statements I have read in this thread, and likely was unintended to make this point:

A solid gold wrist watch does not keep time better than one made of stainless steel. However, a gold watch does cost significantly more, so why would any person buy a gold watch when they could get just as accurate a timepiece made of stainless steel for far less? Or more importantly, would anyone buy a gold watch if watches were worn on a part of the body that was not in plain view?

I will leave you guys with a neat story that I feel could help to explain some of the $$$$ cable skeptics' feelings.

A buddy of mine works for a company that makes gear for the cable television industry. Not the stuff in your house, but in the racks at the cable company, and the field testing equipment used by technicians. Back in the '90s, they introduced a new signal leak "sniffer" device, a shoulder carried unit used by technicians to detect signal loss up on the lines on the poles out on the street. They used some completely new materials and construction techniques and it was more accurate and sensitive than the old unit and they initially offered the devices for something like $1200 each, to replace their old standard unit that sold for $5000.

Despite it's superior performance, lighter weight, and lower price, they could not sell them. My buddy told me that one of the sales guys heard from several wholesalers that said that cable companies were suspicious and believed that no device at that price point could be as good. So guess how they solved this problem? They redesigned the cabinet, switched from a vinyl case to a leather one like the old unit had, and reissued basically the same unit with a different model number, and bumped the price to $3500. They sold like wildfire after this. This story suggests that there is an assumption of price=performance level that is often assumed and not necessarily true.

Just something to think about............

[Church-Audio]

  Good laughs Chris.  I think the techflex will make those Monsters sing 


SparkE,   I meant not only the type of metal but the actual make up of the metals. How pure and also if any of them use alloys even if they claim they are copper or silver.  This is not something I know but I would theorize that this would definitely affect sound quality/color. I mean most agree that silver vs. copper has differences so.....

I did not want to tell you this because you make microphones * I dont want to give away any of my secrets * but the reason why my mics sound so good is I put a little bit of teckflex on the diaphragm between the capsule and the screen It really gives them a nice crunchy sound

[Church-Audio]

i thought techflex made it sound better because of the trapped beer and dirt from the arena floor?

Thanks the cats out of the bag now! the was the other secret I did not want to tell anyone

[Church-Audio]

SparkE,   I meant not only the type of metal but the actual make up of the metals. How pure and also if any of them use alloys even if they claim they are copper or silver.  This is not something I know but I would theorize that this would definitely affect sound quality/color. I mean most agree that silver vs. copper has differences so.....

Silver and copper has difference in conductivity which changes the resistance of the cable.  For a long speaker cable, that might make a difference (although it is probably still cheaper to attack the problem with thicker copper).  For a line-level impedance, the signal loss due to cable resistance is trivial (SparkE's 0.01dB figure).
[/quote]

I think we are all aware that different metals have a difference in conductivity. But you cant simply do a loopback test with out first recreating the load the cable will see in real world conditions.. And some microphones and preamps have a reactive load not a static load. Because of transformers for just one example. This further complicates the issue of "this cable will make your mics sound better" statements because with some mics if we believe that some cables sound better then others will sound different with different loads on them IF you believe that you can hear that I am pretty sceptical.

Chris

[SparkE!]

SparkE,   I meant not only the type of metal but the actual make up of the metals. How pure and also if any of them use alloys even if they claim they are copper or silver.  This is not something I know but I would theorize that this would definitely affect sound quality/color. I mean most agree that silver vs. copper has differences so.....

Silver and copper has difference in conductivity which changes the resistance of the cable.  For a long speaker cable, that might make a difference (although it is probably still cheaper to attack the problem with thicker copper).  For a line-level impedance, the signal loss due to cable resistance is trivial (SparkE's 0.01dB figure).

I think we are all aware that different metals have a difference in conductivity. But you cant simply do a loopback test with out first recreating the load the cable will see in real world conditions.. And some microphones and preamps have a reactive load not a static load. Because of transformers for just one example. This further complicates the issue of "this cable will make your mics sound better" statements because with some mics if we believe that some cables sound better then others will sound different with different loads on them IF you believe that you can hear that I am pretty sceptical.

Chris

Dang, Chris.  Fixing your quotations again.  Carry on. 

[pyiteac]

This has been a good thread to follow.  I can see both sides of the argument, but I am a firm believer in the fact that you get your monies worth.  I am not a professional in this and have a very limited experience using a large variety or cables.  I am much happier with my recordings after I upgraded/changed(depending on your view) my cables.  I used to use starquad mic cables and Monster Cable RCA'S but, to my ears, my recordings sound better with the Zaolla's and Kimber's.  FYI:  I only spent $90 for both sets of cables so It didn't break the bank.  I just shopped around and figured it wouldn't hurt to use them.  Good investment so far.  Continue with your scientific data and rhetoric,  I am learning a lot about the science of signal transmission.  It's cool as hell.   

You said you heard a difference in your recordings when you switched cables, but how can you be sure it was the cables that were making the difference?  Was it the exact same rig otherwise?  Did you switch up cables at the show, or are you comparing 2 different shows?  Same venue?  Same band?  Did the engineer make ANY adjustments to the mix that might account for some of the tonal changes you hear on the recording?  Remember, mixing a band live is hardly a "set and forget" process, at least for any decent FOH engineer.

Too many potential variables to my mind, but again if you feel you're getting your money's worth then that's all that matters.

I hear a difference in my recordings.  The ONLY thing that changed is the interconnects.  The bass is deeper and smoother.  I get more detail in the low end and the highs are clearer.  Can I pinpoint where that comes from? Not really.  I really don't care where it comes from.  It sounds better to me. I know it's an unscientific argument, but guess what?  I'm the only one who really cares how my recordings come out anyway.  I started this thread to get opinions on good interconnects.  If you don't think they make a difference then why chime in?

Because you asked the question, and that's a valid position whether you like it or not (and obviously you don't).  Or are you just looking for someone to convince you that you did the right thing spending money on expensive cables?

You went from asking a seemingly innocuous question about a HIGHLY inflammatory topic and now that a few folks on this thread have taken the position that "cable is cable" and have asked you how you know it's the cables making the difference, you're getting defensive.  Obviously you wanted someone to tell you "brand X is the best" and everyone else to agree hands down. 

More than a few folks on this thread (some of whom actually make a LIVING in audio) have said it doesn't make a difference and that bothers you apparently, since you now "no longer care where your improvements come from" (according to your post above).

I really don't care what side of the argument any of the participants of this discussion is on.  I'm more happy with my new cables.  End of discussion for me.

Then why start this topic in the first place?  You're always going to get some responders agreeing with you that there's a difference, and some who will tell you it's irrelevant.  If you can't tolerate differing opinions and questions about how you measure the difference you hear, maybe you shouldn't ask questions in this forum.

I started the thread because I was happy with my change.  I wanted to see what others out there were happy with.  I had no idea it was such a hot topic on this forum.  Like I have said before,  I think they do make a difference.  If you don't then that's great.  I really don't care if you think they do or not.  It's your opinion and I have mine.  I wasn't trying to start any controversy.  I can tolerate others opinions and I really value them.  If you read one of my other posts I stated that I thought this thread was "Cool as Hell" because I have learned a lot from it. 

I didn't heavily invest in my cables and I don't think there is any snake oil at work here.  I too would have to see some serious evidence to prove the fact that a $200+ cable is better than a $40 one.    I have always valued your posts as you have a lot of knowledge.  I am a n00b here and enjoy as much input and feedback as y'all can give

[eric.B]

just love the cable debates!        

Everyone talks about hearing a difference between expensive and cheaper well made cables (which is true IMO.. as I hear a difference between silver/silver clad and copper), but honestly.. a "difference" doesnt always mean "better"..

[SparkE!]

It wouldn't make a difference unless the metal changed the reactance of cable, which as far as I know it does not.  SparkE hit on this earlier--the insulation and cable construction changes capacitance, not the metal itself.

Even so, we can take 30pF/ft as a reasonable figure for cable capacitance.  With a 100 ohm source impedance, that's a corner frequency of around 500kHz for a 100 ft cable.  So I sincerely doubt just about any reasonable cable people are using for a line-level connection is suffering from cable capacitance, even if you are using a cable that is 10pF/ft or 100pF/ft.

Yup.  And that's precisely my point.  As small an effect as bulk cabling capacitance and series inductance has on things, it's still a larger effect than you get by changing the metals used in the construction of the cable.

Something to consider, though, the FET amp used in electret mics, when properly biased with a simple pullup resistor has about 1/2 the output impedance as the pullup resistor.  So the usual 4.7k resistor gives you a little over 2.3k output impedance.  Do the math with that value and you find that you get a 23 kHz corner frequency for a 100 foot cable with a 30 pF/ft bulk capacitance.  So, you're down nearly 3 dB at 20 kHz.  I think you can hear that pretty easily.  Try going to one of the really skinny, small profile cables, and your capacitance triples and your corner frequency is cut to a third of what it would be with fat cables.

If you use a line level signal, that source impedance is going to be a lot less than a mic's source impedance and so you'll hear less of a difference when testing with a line level source.  Whatever the case, the main differences you'll ever hear are still from the reactive part of the cable impedance, not the resistive part.

[Chilly Brioschi]

pyiteac, enjoy your cables! You owe no excuse for what you hear or how to enjoy it to anyone.
We love a good cable thread, and the debate will rage on for a long, long time.
Do not take it personally in any way.


Great thread!

OK, here's one:

Make a 3-foot pair of interconnects with radically different metallurgical properties from the set which you have...say a pair made from iron(!), aluminum, or galvanized fence wire.
Be sure the inner conductor is insulated from the shield, perhaps with spaghetti or heat shrink.
I suggest that you steal a short length of shield braid from a piece of coax, like RG-58/U or RG-59/U to complete the wire.(push it together like a Chinese fingercuff and slide your center conductor through it)
Or if you really want to make a point, wrap the same material around the inner for the entire wire run.

The hardest part is the electrical contact of the center conductor of the RCA jack.
Be sure that it is a very clean and mechanically solid connection, as solder will likely not work.
It will not age gracefully, so use it for a short time and discard it or prepare to redo the connections often.

Now give THAT a listen and see if it makes a change.

I put forth the idea that if you cannot hear a difference, why would an elliptical wire be better than round, or oxygen-free copper be better than oxygenful(?) copper, or even pure silver?


BTW, I'm sure that long interconnects/mic cables will bring in the noise, just like any other "antenna" would.
The length will also add impedance, mostly in the form of resistance and capacitance and cut your high end a wee bit, if what I am told is correct.

Here's something to ponder, if you're so inclined: