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Author Topic: looking for a camera for tapping live music  (Read 8495 times)

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Offline cybergaloot

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Re: looking for a camera for tapping live music
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2008, 02:57:46 PM »

Software - For video processing, get Vegas or a similar product
For audio processing, get Audition or a similar product


Vegas essentially has Soundforge built in and from what little I know seems to handle audio processing fairly well. Is Audition better?
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this>that>the other

stevetoney

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Re: looking for a camera for tapping live music
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2008, 02:11:25 AM »
I don't mean to sound crass, but if you knew you were gonna reject all of the good advice from us because you knew you were gonna be handholding and stealthing, then why did you ask all the questions?  It takes time to provide extensive answers to 10 questions!   >:(  It doesn't really matter...I do see that you thanked us for our responses, so I appreciate that.  :-\

Anyway, enough of my complaining. 

If you've never shot hand-held, something you haven't considered (I guarantee) is that it's literally impossible to hand hold a video camera for 2 hours.  After less than 10 minutes your arm is ready to fall off from the pain...it's virtually impossible to do for 2 hours.  The alternative is to continually switch hands which causes ever MORE video shakes and causes the camera to lose focus and lose centering on the band (in other words, camera points to the floor, ceiling, left, right..anywhere BUT the stage while you're getting arm relief.)  The longer the show goes, the more frequently you need to change arms. 

You mentioned putting the camera on your knee.  That can be a nice alternative for outdoor venues where there is a hill or something where there will be no people blocking your view.  Indoors, your chances of getting a good knee shot are WAY low unless you do alot of homework in advance to get a prime location...such as the front row of a balcony or something like that.

There's one follow-up point on static shot videos.  You mentioned that you won't be able to walk around.  That's not the point.  The point is that ALL video cameras have the capability to zoom and pan left and right.  If you just have a video that never zooms in or moves around the scene with close-ups, you video will be totally boring.

The advice people gave you above was from the collective experience of doing this for many years and many shows.  Reject this advice at your own risk of getting crappy video that has little or no trade value. 

Not only that, but once you get the reptuation in trading circles that you trade shitty videos, your ability to trade for the good stuff goes way down because nobody will have a reason to trade you for garbage.  My opinion as usual.

Online guitard

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Re: looking for a camera for tapping live music
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2008, 03:14:44 AM »
If you've never shot hand-held, something you haven't considered (I guarantee) is that it's literally impossible to hand hold a video camera for 2 hours.  After less than 10 minutes your arm is ready to fall off from the pain...it's virtually impossible to do for 2 hours.  The alternative is to continually switch hands which causes ever MORE video shakes and causes the camera to lose focus and lose centering on the band (in other words, camera points to the floor, ceiling, left, right..anywhere BUT the stage while you're getting arm relief.)  The longer the show goes, the more frequently you need to change arms. 

You mentioned putting the camera on your knee.  That can be a nice alternative for outdoor venues where there is a hill or something where there will be no people blocking your view.  Indoors, your chances of getting a good knee shot are WAY low unless you do alot of homework in advance to get a prime location...such as the front row of a balcony or something like that.

I agree that a tripod shot is the way to go, and I'll do it that way every chance I get.

But.........sneaking in a cam by itself can be hard enough.......but a cam AND a tripod?  If there is no patdown at the door, it's doable.  But if they are patting you down - sneaking them both in can be a tall order.

I've shot many full concerts with a handheld or a knee supported shot - and they look great and have very minimal shake or jitter.  Like most things, practice makes perfect.  There are methods and strategies for these situations - you just have to learn/develop them.

Lastly, in my experience - unless there isn't much of a crowd - shooting from the lawn can be an absolute bitch.  There are no rows - so you've got people constantly walking in front of you.  And on top of that, you tend to be really far from the stage.
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Offline Chaosu

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Re: looking for a camera for tapping live music
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2008, 04:40:57 AM »
tonedeaf, i'm not rejecting your help, i just calcualte what can and what can't be done on this occasion
and I can still ask question for stealthing issues, don't mind me that

If i would find a local who would lend me his stuff (with tripod) I would go for it. I expect show to be chill with 'have you any water? no? go in' guards. In my country I came across taper-friendly attitude among crowd too, so I really hope for a good tape.

I handheld edirol (I know it's lighter) quite a few times with intention to check how hard is it (it's hard) and I'm not going to keep my hands in the air. I was thinking more on something like hand made tripod to put on my seat (and having camera just under my face), eventually put my legs on my seat and keep camera on them (knees) (probably would look to weird, so I thought about last row). Venue is indoor, seating and floor is going higher with every row (You know what I mean).

Why I asked if static shots are boring is just because I saw people complaining about 'bad zooms' and I can't expect much after myself doing zooms for the first time, so wondered if static may be less worse fo the bad two. Another helpful answers on it, thanks.

I understand the 'collectiv experience' issue, You guys helped me with audio and I did well a few times now, but I'm also collecting video, sometimes it looks like video could be easily done (like a hill on open air, I have a venue like that, hope to try next year), or the case I'm mentioning now. I thought about some things myself (like covering screen) but that doesn't meant that I worked all obvious and usuall things, thats why I asked.

stevetoney

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Re: looking for a camera for tapping live music
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2008, 05:52:12 AM »
tonedeaf, i'm not rejecting your help, i just calcualte what can and what can't be done on this occasion
and I can still ask question for stealthing issues, don't mind me that

If i would find a local who would lend me his stuff (with tripod) I would go for it. I expect show to be chill with 'have you any water? no? go in' guards. In my country I came across taper-friendly attitude among crowd too, so I really hope for a good tape.

I handheld edirol (I know it's lighter) quite a few times with intention to check how hard is it (it's hard) and I'm not going to keep my hands in the air. I was thinking more on something like hand made tripod to put on my seat (and having camera just under my face), eventually put my legs on my seat and keep camera on them (knees) (probably would look to weird, so I thought about last row). Venue is indoor, seating and floor is going higher with every row (You know what I mean).

Why I asked if static shots are boring is just because I saw people complaining about 'bad zooms' and I can't expect much after myself doing zooms for the first time, so wondered if static may be less worse fo the bad two. Another helpful answers on it, thanks.

I understand the 'collectiv experience' issue, You guys helped me with audio and I did well a few times now, but I'm also collecting video, sometimes it looks like video could be easily done (like a hill on open air, I have a venue like that, hope to try next year), or the case I'm mentioning now. I thought about some things myself (like covering screen) but that doesn't meant that I worked all obvious and usuall things, thats why I asked.

No problem.  I'm sorry I jumped your bones a little too much!   ^-^

Static shots and zooms...it all depends on how much you pay attention to the video taping (vs the live show) and what's going on with the music on stage.  For example, if you're hand holding or somehow mono-pod holding, it can be easy when zoomed in for the camera to drift.  Of course, the more zoomed you are, the more drift you risk.  On the other hand, depending on how close to the stage your seat is, you may be able to get zoomed in quite well without this being an issue.  It really all depends on how steady your hand is versus how closely you monitor the video screen and your centering. 

The other aspect of this is that since you have only one camera, you need to be aware of what's happening on stage.  For example, if you're zoomed in on the rhythm section and there is a mean guitar solo going on but the video isn't showing the guitar player, that's distracting to the viewer.  I never found this to be too difficult to figure out because all you have to do is be attentive to the music and you'll quite naturally be drawn with your video camera to what to see (through the viewfinder) who you should be focused on.

I personally do a variety of wide pans and close-ups.  Honestly, I'm not sure how much you can plan in advance for what the right mix is.  It's becomes fairly self-evident when you get there...realizing that any stealth taping experience is tough.  I'd just say that, if possible, you'd want to strive for something more than the static single camera video.

BTW, when undercover like this, the chance of getting caught doing video is pretty high.  If the situation escalates, the best advice I've ever recieved is to NOT argue, debate, or even try to justify what you're doing.  You cannot and won't win 99% of the time (sure there are exceptons, but rare).  The best advice is just to smile, shut off the recorder and admit to them that you are caught.  IMHO, the best you can hope for at that point is seeing the rest of the show without any more hassle.  The worst that can happen is that they'll try to confiscate or even damage your gear...or possibly even get rough with you.  Don't let it get to that point...leave if you have to.  This is a game...sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.  Trying to justify to the venue or managers is a losing strategy 99% of the time, so my advice is don't even try.  That's why it's always best to ask ahead of time...but even when you get permission, it's often a losing strategy to argue if someone decides to you a hard time when you get to the show.


Offline Melanie

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Re: looking for a camera for tapping live music
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2008, 09:30:55 AM »
lots of good advice, here's our vid. trip. I started in the '90,s got permission to record zero and got tight with Steve who was gracious  (and trusting!) enough to let me use vid. with board feed.!st show was zero with Merl on keyboards. Two camera, one on stage, handheld, 2nd by soundboard,tripod. D.A.T. out of board, camera's were two s-vhs quasars. We spent MASS time in an editing suite puting it together. System evolved into usually single camera shoots for the next few years, board feed into D.A.T. with pro s-vhs deck plugged into output of camera with D.A.T. feed going into the audio ins of the pro s-vhs deck. This eliminated the need to sync up audio and vid.Also gave me 2 hours plus without flips.I still ran tapes in the Mdv's in case of problems with s-vhs decks. Eventuallywent to canon GL2's as they have gain controls on the audio inputs. As far as one hour flips with m-dv i used 80 minute tapes which helped with flips, Melanie aand I would try to stagger.flips on the two cameras so one feed would remain constant.If we were able to use the s-vhs deck we would run prime camera(usually the stage cam.) into s-vhs deck with audio feed and sync 2nd camera in via vid. switcher(either Panasonic AGE57 or vidionics1000)in post-production.If I could put a crew together I would bring in the switcher but usually would not go this route as it took me off a camera. I realized that the ability to archive vid. and audio was worthless without the permission of the artist as handheld images are usually too shakey to be of worth unless you are RIGHT AT the stage doing a wide angle shot (with screw-on wide angle adapter).IF you are stealthing you risk losing the audio(which is really what you want anyway) if you are caught,and the gear is usually too expensive and fragile to risk.As other people pointed out the end result is usually not worth the effort. We went on to record Zero, K.V.H.W.(without board feeds as  policy had changed), years of Toots and the Maytals(until policy changed),Country Joe McDonald(untl policy changed)(starting to sound famililiar,huh?)Needless to say, we had a good run, don't break out the gear much anymore (except for odd paying gigs), transferring archives  to disc slowly as we still audio record shows and don't have the time we used to.Bob and Melanie.
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Offline nomotrouble

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Re: looking for a camera for tapping live music
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2008, 09:54:20 PM »
I have been recording loud reggae shows for a year and a half now with a mini dv, sony dcr hc-28. It is a remarkable little camera that you can pick up cheap on ebay. The sound on this camera is the best i have heard, from all the shows i record. SNWMF, 2008 ROTR, and lots of bar shows. Basically, if i can stand the volume without ear plugs, so can the camera. And if its just a little too loud for me, the camera is usually okay. Check out my youtube page, nomotrouble123. heres a link, the vids are all recorded with the sony camera   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjjnWbncG4k   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpIlD4iD6nU. The Bunny Wailer vid was my first attempt, the Danny-I vid was a week and a half ago.

Offline nomotrouble

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Re: looking for a camera for tapping live music
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2008, 09:59:33 PM »
And for the record, i have given up on the tripod mostly, it makes for a more boring vid, i like when you're in the crowd rockin'!! And i rarely ask about whether i can video, i just whip it out. One promoter that i asked told me he always says no if someone asks, but its impossible to stop someone in a crowd who just whips it out. He didnt let me video, but he taught me something. And i have only gotten compliments and thanks from bands whose videos i upload to youtube!

Offline Chaosu

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Re: looking for a camera for tapping live music
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2008, 02:03:47 PM »
Thanks for answer nomotrouble and Melanie, someone got to give You +Ts from me!

I don't think I'll succeed in getting money for camera as show is pretty soon and I'm broke, but I got one more question.

Lets say the stage is in full light, audience in dark. I am sitting in front of singers. Is it possible that light will reflect from camera lens and will be visible to artists (or security)? This would be unacceptable in my case...

Offline stantheman1976

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Re: looking for a camera for tapping live music
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2008, 05:09:01 PM »
Yes, this is definitely possible.  The whole purpose of stealth is to stay hidden, not to put yourself in front of people who don't want you to do what you're doing.

stevetoney

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Re: looking for a camera for tapping live music
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2008, 08:31:42 AM »
^ You gotta remember, video is usually pretty tough and requires diligence!  Getting good video is not for the faint of heart.  I think the best thing is to imagine yourself in the scene and do alot of 'what if'ing'.  So, yeah I agree that the lens is apt to shine when you're pretty close up.  You also stand a better chance of being illuminated by stage lights...when I'm video taping, I always hate it when they bring up the house lights momentarily or shine the white stage lights out at the audience.

Regarding the commenter above that says 'no tripod'.  Yeah, I agree it's totally boring if you just set a camera on a tripod and forget about it.  That's not what you do if your goal is to get the highest quality audience shot video that people might want to watch.

It's really simple...how many pro shot vids are hand held and bounce around during a show?  And would you rather watch a steady video that adds interest via good filming and editing or watch something hand-held where the subject bounces throughout the show and sometimes is even totally off camera?

Just trying to help...

Offline Chaosu

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Re: looking for a camera for tapping live music
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2008, 07:04:54 PM »
I failed in buying a camcorder. I'm sad because band is great and they have just few audio shows, no video, but maybe next time. I'll let You know when I'll succeed : )

stevetoney

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Re: looking for a camera for tapping live music
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2008, 08:57:19 PM »
^^  If I could offer some coaching rah-rah type thoughts...don't look at it as a failure just because a band came and went.  Consider this the first period of the game and you're disappointed by the start.  You haven't 'failed' anything yet because there's still a loooong way to go before the game is over.

 

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