Topic: Best way to deliver some HDV footage?

[cleantone]

I shoot on a Sony HVR-Z1. I shot some stuff for someone how cannot transfer the tape and wants to do the editing. I generally just dump with (gasp) iMovie HD. From what I understand that uses some sort of compression scheme. Thye will be using Final Cut for editing. There is about 2 hours of footage. Should I just transfer to Final Cut (which also uses some sort of compression I think) and dump the session file onto a HD? Would it make more sense to export to a Quicktime at all? I think I am answering my own question a bit. Probably a FC session huh? Something else?

[tailschao]

When you say that iMovie/FC uses some form of compression scheme, do you mean that they re-encode HDV material on-the-fly during capture? There's gotta be a way of just saving the stream as it is. Mabye not with iMovie, but it'd be absolutely appalling if Final Cut can't do it...

Anyway, whatever you do don't export to Quicktime or any other format. Find a way of saving the .m2t HDV stream direct untouched from the tape then give the editor that. Either on a hard drive or I suppose a 16GB SDHC or Compact Flash card would work.

If all else fails then there is a tool packaged with Apple's FireWire SDK called DVHSCap that can directly capture HDV without re-encoding it. First item here: http://developer.apple.com/devicedrivers/download/index.html
I think you have to sign up but it's free as far as I can tell.

[cleantone]

When you say that iMovie/FC uses some form of compression scheme, do you mean that they re-encode HDV material on-the-fly during capture? There's gotta be a way of just saving the stream as it is. Mabye not with iMovie, but it'd be absolutely appalling if Final Cut can't do it...

Yes. I have heard that both softwares use a on the fly scheme on import. I might not be the best person to speak about it though. The info I think rattles in my head from back whne HDV was spanking new a couple of years back.

I'll look into the link. Thanks. +t

[taper420]

Can't speak for i-movie, but final cut does not reencode on capture (although you may be able to set it to do so). You set the format that the tape is, and it captures in that format. As far as exporting, if you export as quicktime movie, and DO NOT check recompress all frames, and keep the drop downs as keep current settings, it will be a lossless copy that can then be imported into Final Cut. Quicktime is just a shell, it will maintain whatever codec it was created with (HDV).

Perhaps you were confused because in actuality, your camera records in a compressed format, an HDV variant of MPEG2 (it has more keyframes than your average mpeg2, making it easier for your computer to edit). Uncompressed HD is the realm of pro equipment only and is very expensive. HDV does a fine job though. I've been using some FX1's for a couple years now. Although it is a compressed format, FCP will allow you to edit in that native format, without any loss. You must set your capture settings, and then during editing set your sequence settings to match.

Sorry, can't speak on imovie, but I'd imagine it has a bunch of annoying things that would make you want to upgrade to FCP.

[tailschao]

Can't speak for i-movie, but final cut does not reencode on capture (although you may be able to set it to do so). You set the format that the tape is, and it captures in that format.

Ah, phew, that makes more sense

As far as exporting, if you export as quicktime movie, and DO NOT check recompress all frames, and keep the drop downs as keep current settings, it will be a lossless copy that can then be imported into Final Cut. Quicktime is just a shell, it will maintain whatever codec it was created with (HDV).

Just out of interest, is this the only way to export HDV footage from a Final Cut timeline, in a Quicktime container? Or can't Final Cut open the files if they are in the normal m2t container? Or both? (Windows user here, never used Final Cut, just curious )

[taper420]

No, there are three different ways to export, in a myriad of formats, but I believe saving as a QT movie is the only way to do it losslessly without re-compressing. The three ways are 1: As a quicktime movie, 2: with compressor, or 3: with quicktime conversion. FCP runs on quicktime, so anything you can watch in quicktime (and you can get add codecs such as WMV and FLV), you can import to FCP. But let's say you import an MPEG2 (m2t, m2v) file that isn't HDV (lack of keyframes)... you have to render and then again every time you make a change. That becomes a bitch, so straight up MPEG2 isn't edit friendly.

So if you want to migrate footage losslessly, quicktime is the only option... which makes sense, because FCP is built around it. You may be able to use a program called visualhub to change the container without re-encoding. You would have to go into the advanced menu and set the FFmpeg tag to video and audio passthrough. It doesn't always work like it should though.... you have to choose a compatible container.

Other than that you can get an m2t file out of compressor, but it will re-compress the frames, and it won't be (easily) editable.

[cleantone]

Thanks for the info. Do you think I should just transfer to FCP and copy the session to his drive then? I want to make this as simple as possible for me and I don't have all the processing power in the world. Maybe I should just go to his place (50 miles) and dump it to his rig.

[taper420]

If you have the same version of FCP as him... you can start a project, and copy all necessary files, including the project file... To make it easy, just create a folder with the project name, and set your scratch disc to that folder. Then all media will be in there, and you just need to store the FCP project file there as well. Then just copy the folder. There's even a media manager within FCP that will let you move a project around, and even gives you the option to choose only "used" footage. But that's getting complicated... just store it all to one folder and copy the folder. If he gets an error message upon opening that it can't find the media, he just has to navigate to the folder and choose one of the files and the rest will auto import. 

[Petrus]

Actually the preferred method in FCP is to EXPAND the footage on the fly during the capture, not compress it. Native HDV is a compressed lossy format and there is a possibility to turn it into frame based codek during the capture (Apple lossless or something like that) which is about three times bigger in file size. As such, this does not improve the quality, but makes editing faster (like DV, which is also has frame based codec) and there is no pile-up of intermediate rendering artefacts like with MPEG2/HDV.

workflow: HDV -> capture to ALC format -> editing in ALC format -> render back to HDV during export to tape or file.

This whole ALC codec is hidden from the user, but makes things go more smooth and retains the quality of the original footage throughout the editing process. The only downside is HDD space; 35 GB/h of video.

[taper420]

I'll use Apple Intermediate if I'm doing some heavy rendering like chroma-key. But for most stuff I find the trade off in space isn't worth the increased performance. HDV is a specific flavor of MPEG-2 that was designed to be edit friendly. Unlike the stuff we burn to DVD. I really have no trouble working with it. Of course this is what I'm running:

[cleantone]

I was just about to buy a MacPro with specs almost like that. It was used. I was working out payment with the guy and lost my internet for about 12 hours. He sold it to someone else. I was so bent. $1000 was the price. 8GB RAM Dual 2.6 (i think) and 750GB storage as well as a lot of software. I need something like this but can't drop the loot for a new one.

[wilsonedits]

quicktime movie self contained gives you the original files

there is a thread on the apple site.... where someone exported 20 times over just to show that you have the identical file