Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: mixing Copper and Silver cables....  (Read 3628 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6505
  • large Marge sent me
Re: mixing Copper and Silver cables....
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2009, 02:54:24 PM »
So, why not stand up to us scepticts and design a true blind AB test, invite a few good ears and do it. Maybe we sceptics can be convinced.

I have offered a demonstration on my home system on many occasions.  To date the number of takers: zero.

One of our vocal sceptics here was offered some very expensive cables to try and he made 10 different excuses for why he would not do an AB in his home rig.

While I appreciate the value of double blind testing, I think you know that can't happen.  Given the physical properties of the test environment there is no way to swap cables without the person doing the swapping having an idea of which cable is installed at any given time.  There are ways to minimize the interaction between the person listening and the person swapping cables, but when such a situation is suggested the cable sceptics seem to suddenly become true believers in the powers of mind reading.


 

The first rule of amateur neurosurgery club is .... I forget.

Offline ghellquist

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 477
  • Gender: Male
Re: mixing Copper and Silver cables....
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2009, 01:24:12 AM »
I agree it is difficult. But then, look at the typical home session.

"You know I have these superduper extra expensive cables here that I really feel gives a much tighter feeling to the whole rythm session. Listen for yourself and you will hear it"

Errors:
1 - you tell the listener what he is supposed to hear
2 - you give the listener only one chance to hear the change or even none
3 - you as test designer will be disappointed if the person does not hear what you want him to hear

and so on.

Try this instead.

1 - make sure the listener cannot see which cable is beeing used. Screen, behind the boxes, whatever.
2 - write 10 small paper pieces with A on them and 10 with B on fold, fold them and put them in a jar.
3 - disconnect both cables.
4 - draw a paper from the jar (A or B) and connect the corresponding cable. Again so that the listener cannot see. Note out of sight for the listener which it was.
5 - play the same song (maximum first 30 seconds or so)
6 - ask the listener to keep a protocol for the difference between this listening and the previous: better / same / worse.
7 - repeat at least 7 times, preferrably more.

After the test has been done it is possible to apply statistical principles to the results obtained. Look at the change form A to B (as example) if this happened four times and the listener answered 2 times better and 2 times worse we are talking pure chance. Not much difference really with 3 to 1 as this could be pure chance again. In order to get a valid result we need a larger sample or a 4 to zero score.

If you want to make the test even better, invite a sceptic like me to conduct the test and several people to listen and hidden to each other keep the protocol. Next time I am around your part of the world I volunteer.

Remember that bias happens every time we as humans are asked to compare things. This is proved again and again and again in science and in practical tests in marketing.

// Gunnar 

Offline ghellquist

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 477
  • Gender: Male
Re: mixing Copper and Silver cables....
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2009, 03:11:16 AM »
By the way - I am completely convinced that you are perceiving a difference. This is not the question. Obviously you find it worth the work and money to go down a certain path. The good thing is that it gives you satisfaction.

The question is whether there is any "provable" difference applying to other individuals or to different circumstances. My firm belief is that if there is a difference (silver or copper) it is too tiny to be noticed in any normal usage. To me then it is better to spend time and money on the things that gives the large differences. Among these are mic choices, mic setup and placement and acoustical treatment of listening rooms. As an example, I have visited people spending a lot on their sound systems running them in rooms with concrete walls and roof and completely without acoustical treatment, having flutter echoes going on for more than a second. I know where I would put the effort in those cases and it would not be on any part of the listening equipment.

// Gunnar

Offline Stagger

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
  • Gender: Male
  • Yep I'm selling my 722-Wife always wins in the end
Re: mixing Copper and Silver cables....
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2009, 01:40:02 PM »
For the skeptics, in the event above, I was not swapping a super expensive cable for a cheap one. The rep asked me to take it home because the price was about the same as my cables. Also I don't recall telling Brian what cable was what. I just swapped them and said, "what do you like better and what are you hearing?" The placebo effect would tend to favor the new "better" cable if you don't know a thing about them but, in this case, we both preferred the original cable. This wasn't something we made up in our heads. There was an easily detectable difference, akin to swapping tubes of the same type but different make. The entire tonal structure was different. You have to actually try an A/B comp (even better if it is a blind comp) with decent equipment before you convince yourself that there is no possible difference.
Selling: SD 722
Current Setup: AKG c34 > S42 > Kimber Hero > DR-680

Nikon D7000, SB-700, Nikkor 18-200 f3.5-5.6, Nikkor 50 f1.8D, Sigma 10-20 f3.5, and way too many do-dads to list...

Playback: Denon DVD3910>Audio Experiences Symphonies Tube Pre [Electro-Harmonix/12AX7 Gold Pin ]>Rogue 88 Amplifier [Genalex Gold Lion KT88s, ultralinear]>Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home & Martin Logan Depth i - AudioQuest Jaguar and CV-8 DBS cable, Panamax M7500Pro conditioner.

Offline rokpunk

  • WOULD HIT IT
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 9269
  • Gender: Male
Re: mixing Copper and Silver cables....
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2009, 01:04:06 AM »
yeah, but have these new cables been "burned in"....... ::)


/sarcasm mode off
The new and improved taperssection.com....now with freedom of speech without the repercussion of -T's!



again, your showing your cluelessness.


Jah sitteth in Mount Zion
And rules all creation........

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.153 seconds with 28 queries.
© 2002-2017 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF
Website Design by Foxtrot Media, Inc., a Baltimore Website Company