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Author Topic: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?  (Read 8153 times)

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Offline rastasean

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2011, 10:06:52 PM »
I know I'm late to the party but I'll put my .02 cents in since I only do video.

Do you have any youtube videos?
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Offline sabre

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2011, 11:48:27 PM »
I use Vegas Platinum 10 to do the editing.  I just align the camera audio with the mastered audio track, and remove the camera audio.  I do this for all four camera's.  I have done well over 200 sets this way, and have never had any drift whatsoever.  Once aligned the audio is perfectly in sync through the entire set. 

Alignment takes me about 15 minutes for all four camera's.  As you start doing it more, it becomes quick and easy because you can start to visualize the sync points.

If you want to save some time with the external audio alignment, take a look at an program called PluralEyes. It's fully automates the process. It's a plug-in for Vegas Pro. (I'm not sure if it will work with Vegas Platinum)
A 30-day trial version can be downloaded from : http://www.singularsoftware.com/pluraleyes.html

Offline Shadow_7

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2011, 02:26:43 AM »
As long as you don't do a lot of short clips, lining up the audio isn't much of a time suck.  At least relative to the time that it takes to decode/encode the video.  But then again if you have a super fast machine, it might be worth it to save a little time.

I've done basically 15 videos in 13 days on my new-ish youtube channel (DBorigami).  With video from an FH1, and audio from an AT3035 into an sound devices MM-1 into a Korg MR-1000.  Recorded at 1080p60 for video and 24/192 audio.  Rendered to 720p30 and 16/48 before upload to youtube.  Syncing the two audio tracks (camcorder and field recorder) takes less than a minute.  Most of which is load time for the file(s).  Although resampling and drift have already been computed at that point (scripted).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT75DPvB-RE

Offline mmadd29

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2011, 07:29:53 AM »
I know I'm late to the party but I'll put my .02 cents in since I only do video.

Do you have any youtube videos?

http://www.youtube.com/mmadd29
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Offline mmadd29

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2011, 07:30:44 AM »
I use Vegas Platinum 10 to do the editing.  I just align the camera audio with the mastered audio track, and remove the camera audio.  I do this for all four camera's.  I have done well over 200 sets this way, and have never had any drift whatsoever.  Once aligned the audio is perfectly in sync through the entire set. 

Alignment takes me about 15 minutes for all four camera's.  As you start doing it more, it becomes quick and easy because you can start to visualize the sync points.

If you want to save some time with the external audio alignment, take a look at an program called PluralEyes. It's fully automates the process. It's a plug-in for Vegas Pro. (I'm not sure if it will work with Vegas Platinum)
A 30-day trial version can be downloaded from : http://www.singularsoftware.com/pluraleyes.html

Thanks I will certainly look at that package..... :)
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Offline mmadd29

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2011, 07:33:32 AM »
As long as you don't do a lot of short clips, lining up the audio isn't much of a time suck.  At least relative to the time that it takes to decode/encode the video.  But then again if you have a super fast machine, it might be worth it to save a little time.

I've done basically 15 videos in 13 days on my new-ish youtube channel (DBorigami).  With video from an FH1, and audio from an AT3035 into an sound devices MM-1 into a Korg MR-1000.  Recorded at 1080p60 for video and 24/192 audio.  Rendered to 720p30 and 16/48 before upload to youtube.  Syncing the two audio tracks (camcorder and field recorder) takes less than a minute.  Most of which is load time for the file(s).  Although resampling and drift have already been computed at that point (scripted).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT75DPvB-RE

Do you use place holder files?

I hear editing in HD is horribly slow, some have said they use rendered down files for editing, and then replace them when it's render time.
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Offline Shadow_7

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2011, 08:39:16 AM »
Do you use place holder files?

I hear editing in HD is horribly slow, some have said they use rendered down files for editing, and then replace them when it's render time.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.  But none of my machines are even fast enough to "PLAY" the originals in "real time".  So I do convert my videos to a DVD format, just to view them and determine decent edit points (trim off first couple of seconds / content of interest is this many seconds which is X number of frames).  A side effect of which is the camcorders audio is extracted and converted to .wav files to use for syncing later.

But generally my "process" takes about 4 hours for every ten minutes of video converted.  But that includes the DVD version, viewing that to determine edits points.  Converting to the 720p version, and viewing that to determine that things happened as planned.  And I have multiple machines so it's not like I'm locked out of doing anything with a computer while those edits do their thing.  But I'm more of a weekend warrior, so I don't have any great need for massive throughput.  And I only have one camcorder, so edits are relatively simple. 

But I'm also a sync junkie so I'm doing a bit of math in there.  Down to the nearest sample based on the alignment of the 60p frame versus hard seconds.  For the 30p output (every other frame).  And making sure that audio exists past the last frame so the total video time ends on an exact second +/- 0 samples.  My actual camcorder footage with camcorder audio actually cuts audio out a frame or more before the end of the recorded video (one more reason to use an external field recorder).  Which makes my DVD authoring method cringe to say the least.  But I don't make that many DVDs to really justify my work flow (yet).

Offline mmadd29

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2011, 08:48:03 AM »
Do you use place holder files?

I hear editing in HD is horribly slow, some have said they use rendered down files for editing, and then replace them when it's render time.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.  But none of my machines are even fast enough to "PLAY" the originals in "real time".  So I do convert my videos to a DVD format, just to view them and determine decent edit points (trim off first couple of seconds / content of interest is this many seconds which is X number of frames).  A side effect of which is the camcorders audio is extracted and converted to .wav files to use for syncing later.

But generally my "process" takes about 4 hours for every ten minutes of video converted.  But that includes the DVD version, viewing that to determine edits points.  Converting to the 720p version, and viewing that to determine that things happened as planned.  And I have multiple machines so it's not like I'm locked out of doing anything with a computer while those edits do their thing.  But I'm more of a weekend warrior, so I don't have any great need for massive throughput.  And I only have one camcorder, so edits are relatively simple. 

But I'm also a sync junkie so I'm doing a bit of math in there.  Down to the nearest sample based on the alignment of the 60p frame versus hard seconds.  For the 30p output (every other frame).  And making sure that audio exists past the last frame so the total video time ends on an exact second +/- 0 samples.  My actual camcorder footage with camcorder audio actually cuts audio out a frame or more before the end of the recorded video (one more reason to use an external field recorder).  Which makes my DVD authoring method cringe to say the least.  But I don't make that many DVDs to really justify my work flow (yet).

OK my terminology was in correct...they are called proxy files.  A buddy of mine who has done work for NBC says he uses this process and many pro's do because you need crazy fast multiple processors to do real time HD editing.

The process would be to trim the video, then create a rendered version in wmv. avi or whatever.  I believe that Vegas Pro allows this on the fly.  You use those rendered down files to do the editing with those files, once you doing editing, you replace the proxy files with the original files then render.  This process allows editing to go quicker, and you can render at night, and when you wake up in the morning the rendering is done...

here is a link

http://forums.steves-digicams.com/sanyo/160760-using-proxy-files-editing-vegas-pro.html

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Offline Shadow_7

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2011, 09:47:40 PM »
OK my terminology was in correct...they are called proxy files.  A buddy of mine who has done work for NBC says he uses this process and many pro's do because you need crazy fast multiple processors to do real time HD editing.

The process would be to trim the video, then create a rendered version in wmv. avi or whatever.  I believe that Vegas Pro allows this on the fly.  You use those rendered down files to do the editing with those files, once you doing editing, you replace the proxy files with the original files then render.  This process allows editing to go quicker, and you can render at night, and when you wake up in the morning the rendering is done...


This is basically my flow of sorts.  Except that all of my editing is done on the linux command line.  Bash + ffmpeg.  The only gui of sorts is using mplayer to watch the playable videos and monitoring the timer on the xterm to notate the needed edit point(s).  I could use cinelerra, lives, kdenlive, and others, but I don't.  I doubt my system meets the minimum specs.  And since my process is scripted, I can change the X and Y resolution to anything and it'll get applied to the 1st generation camcorder input.  Normally I leave it on 720p, because my computers are not fast enough, my hard drives not big enough, and other most folks watching it are only going to view the 360p version.  And in reality, once you factor in actual lines of resolution of the camcorder, it's not really much more than a 720p camcorder anyway.  But it's scripted so I can launch that and go fishing, or sleep.  For edited video, I have to basically do it twice.  Once to watch it and determine the edits.  And a final encode at any resolution.  But there's different scripts and parameters to make the first gen fast-ish to watch it for content.  And the final slow-ish for max quality.

I've got my process setup this way so that I can extract the frames as images and do additional processing on them.  With various image manipulation programs and even a custom green screen code (modified ppmchange).  Generally I run the frames through batch-lab-colorboost for gimp.  There's just something about that which enhances the perceived resolution / sharpness of the images.  Which kind of makes your $300 camcorder look like a $1K+ camcorder.  But it's slow as molasses so I don't really do that on everything, or even most things.  Only one of my current youtube videos has that process done on it.

Mexican Eagle eats a Rabbit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocuf-8peRqU
(batch-lab-colorboost variant / changed for ppm files)

In the end it's ffmpeg that decodes and encodes the result.  Except for my DVD variant that uses mjpegtools and mpeg2enc + mplex.  Something to do with dvdauthor that made me go that route.  Namely single image menu items and ogle quirks.  But since I'm generally treating each frame of video as a picture / image, I can literally do anything to the images.  Use the images as a skin to a povray scene.  Overlay, fade, blend, whatever an image manipulation program can do.  If you've got the time and HDD space.  And coding skills to add anything ultra-custom-ish.  In theory it also allows me to use my image, without using my image.  As in the alpha mask from the green screen, but my actual image can be mangled.  Gimp's alien-map or predator plugins, or just the photocopy plugin to make it more cartoon-ish, without having to know how to draw.  It's a bit too hands on to be a viable editor or editing method.  But it has it's uses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDLNEZ_dOiU
(povray scene with video frames as a skin)

I pretty much always use external mics and a field recorder though.  I'm more of an audio guy with the necessary evil known as video to supplement that.  Although I like that I get to combine all of my skill sets into one medium.  Even though writing code is a bit of a lost art form given that you can buy most of that functionality off the shelf in a lot of cases.

 

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