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Author Topic: Soundforge pitch correction for a cassette master?  (Read 8118 times)

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Offline sbernstein

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Soundforge pitch correction for a cassette master?
« on: September 06, 2011, 07:00:24 PM »
I'm sure this has been covered elsewhere, but I'm not having any luck finding suggestions.

I'm trying to pitch correct (or at least verify the pitch of) a wav file that was handed to me of a cassette-sourced recording in Sound Forge 10.

Is anyone aware of a step-by-step/how-to guide or FAQ that someone has put together on pitch correction?  I recall finding one on the next a few years back but can't locate it now.

I'm sure I'll have to spectrum analyze and then pitch shift, but wanted to verify that I'm doing it right...

Thanks!

Offline gratefulphish

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Re: Soundforge pitch correction for a cassette master?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2011, 01:48:55 PM »
Scott,

I am not sure how you can verify a certain pitch, unless you had a segment where a single musician held a distinct note for a period to time, which you then might be able to discern using the spectrum analyzer, but I don't find the view provided by SF to be that accurate.  In the olden days, with Nak cassette decks that had pitch control, i.e. the ability to increase or decrease the tape speed by small increments, it was all done by ear.  There were times when you could tell that the cassette source was losing battery power, further into a set, so sometimes this involved adjusting the pitch control at the beginning of a song part way through the set.  Let us know if you find any other way of figuring this out with greater accuracy.
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Offline sbernstein

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Re: Soundforge pitch correction for a cassette master?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2011, 01:59:35 PM »
I do recall some documentation on the web at some point that detailed how to spectrum-analyze a segment of a recording, look at the peaks in a certain view in SF, and see that most of the peaks will occur around the notes.  And depending on if the peaks were a bit above or below the where frequency peaks should be, making some adjustments...

I was just looking for something akin to this, but can't seem to find it anymore.

Offline gratefulphish

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Re: Soundforge pitch correction for a cassette master?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2011, 04:22:06 PM »
I do recall some documentation on the web at some point that detailed how to spectrum-analyze a segment of a recording, look at the peaks in a certain view in SF, and see that most of the peaks will occur around the notes.  And depending on if the peaks were a bit above or below the where frequency peaks should be, making some adjustments...

I was just looking for something akin to this, but can't seem to find it anymore.

What you see in SF spectrum analysis, is pretty hard to work with under the best of circumstances.  I find it most useful for locating a particularly hot signal due to feedback, bass rumble, screech, etc. which then lets me work a notch filter to remove that frequency.  You would have to know what the precise frequency of the source note was, in order to identify, then adjust and then check the result again.  When I used to have to adjust cassette pitch, I just did it directly from the adjustable Nak, just going by ear.  Occasionally, I would put, say two Dead shows from within the same week or two in different decks, starting at an identifiable point fo the same song on each tape, and then A/B to see how much one was dragging behind the other, and adjust accordingly.
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Offline sbernstein

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Re: Soundforge pitch correction for a cassette master?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2011, 04:45:34 PM »
Yep, this method I'm talking about has been documented previously, was just looking for documentation.  You can slice the spectrum analysis very thinly and zoom in a lot to look at the exact frequencies of the notes.  Apparently it does work.  And is used quite widely -- just go search some of the cassette-sourced Dead shows posted on bt.etree.org.  You'll see lots of credits like "Pitch Correction by .....", and ALL of these are done in the digital domain on already-existing files.

Personally there is no way I could tune anything by ear.  Seems like it's just guesswork and could easily lead to a recording just as incorrectly-pitched (in the other direction) as the original.

Frankly the recording I was working on (not my master, nor my transfer -- just did some tracking and some minimal additional mastering) may have been perfectly-pitched, but I was trying to verify the pitch before I posted.  I posted it anyway, but would still revisit the pitch if I could get the process nailed down.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 06:40:10 PM by sbernstein »

Offline gratefulphish

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Re: Soundforge pitch correction for a cassette master?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2011, 06:12:48 PM »
If you do run across any documentation on that method, please post it here, as I would be very interested to read it.
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Offline Chuck

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Re: Soundforge pitch correction for a cassette master?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2011, 02:13:09 PM »
I'm in the process of transfering some old cassettes to WAVs. Mostly old Grateful Dead recordings.
I wonder if it would be possible to pitch shift using a digital recording of the same concert for the accurate length the recording should be?

There are digital and pitch corrected recordings up of many of the show I want to transfer. If I use the digital recording as the guide. Would It work if I just used pitch shift software to lengthen or shorten the cassette recording to match the length of the digital recording?





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Offline sbernstein

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Re: Soundforge pitch correction for a cassette master?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2011, 02:28:06 PM »
Yes, that would definitely work.   But the thing is that you'll need to zoom in and trim the released recording to the EXACT sample where your track starts and ends.  Then you can find out exactly how many samples yours is shorter or longer, and stretch or compress your recording's time to match.  It should be relatively straightforward.

Still haven't found the doc I was looking for on how to match using the A440 pitch in SoundForge.  I'll try searching for it again one of these days...  :)

Offline Chuck

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Re: Soundforge pitch correction for a cassette master?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2011, 02:32:44 PM »
I wonder if there is free or cheap software that can do that process using minutes and seconds rather than samples?
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

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Offline sbernstein

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Re: Soundforge pitch correction for a cassette master?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2011, 02:39:53 PM »
I wonder if there is free or cheap software that can do that process using minutes and seconds rather than samples?
Well, I use Sound Forge, and it can be configured to work in samples, seconds, minutes, etc -- however you want.  I'm sure the free Audacity can do the same.  I don't think there is any software specifically for the purpose that you want it for.

But minutes and seconds will not give you enough detail to do what you want.  You'll definitely need to go down to the hundredths of a second (like 2:22.11) to get it right.  Or if you can get more granular with more decimal places, your work will be that much more exact.

Offline Chuck

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Re: Soundforge pitch correction for a cassette master?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2011, 06:12:53 PM »
I just compared one of my transfered cassette sources to a DAT master reference. My cassette source is 10 seconds shorter than the reference over the course of 58 minutes.
I wonder if that's really a big deal?
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
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Offline sbernstein

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Re: Soundforge pitch correction for a cassette master?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2011, 06:25:08 PM »
I just compared one of my transfered cassette sources to a DAT master reference. My cassette source is 10 seconds shorter than the reference over the course of 58 minutes.
I wonder if that's really a big deal?
Yes, that's enough of difference that I would want to fix it.  That is just about a 1% speed difference which most ears can probably hear....

Offline Chuck

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Re: Soundforge pitch correction for a cassette master?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2011, 06:40:25 PM »
My math: 58 minutes x 60 seconds = 3480 seconds

10 seconds is 0.2873563% of 3480 seconds
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

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Offline sbernstein

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Re: Soundforge pitch correction for a cassette master?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2011, 06:48:07 PM »
Sorry for my rough math   ;-) .  But I would personally still worry about correcting that amount of speed difference.

Offline Chuck

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Re: Soundforge pitch correction for a cassette master?
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2011, 07:01:29 PM »
No sweat  :)
I have CuBase 2, but I don't see a plug-in that'll work.
I'll look for a plug-in that'll correct the speed difference

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

 

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