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Author Topic: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)  (Read 56783 times)

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Offline jb63

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2012, 09:45:49 PM »
More on that.
So if I were, hypothetically, running 4 channels, 24/48, phamtom power on, using freshly charged NiMH AA batteries...

Would you say I could get 3 hours safely, or just 2?

Problem is the band is known to SOMEtimes pull 2.5 hour sets, but not often.
I can swap batteries during the encore applause, no problem, or I can run external pre's, but I was hoping to just drive the R44 to see how it fares on its own.

Thanks!
this is definitely not normal

Offline mepaca

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2012, 04:46:17 AM »
use energizer lithiums

Offline jb63

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2012, 12:33:22 PM »
use energizer lithiums

That's $10 more for every, or every other ticket.
That's how I lived in the SBM-1 days.
this is definitely not normal

Offline hi and lo

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2012, 03:56:05 PM »
use energizer lithiums

That's $10 more for every, or every other ticket.
That's how I lived in the SBM-1 days.

and please don't do this.... we don't need all those batts ending up in the landfills.

Go with the highest capacity rechargeable you can find and if the run-time doesn't cut it (and an external dvd batt isn't an option), it probably just means this isn't the recorder for the job.

Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2012, 03:58:02 PM »
More on that.
So if I were, hypothetically, running 4 channels, 24/48, phamtom power on, using freshly charged NiMH AA batteries...

Would you say I could get 3 hours safely, or just 2?

Problem is the band is known to SOMEtimes pull 2.5 hour sets, but not often.
I can swap batteries during the encore applause, no problem, or I can run external pre's, but I was hoping to just drive the R44 to see how it fares on its own.

Thanks!

Miracles have been known to happen, but I'd be surprised if you could get much more than 2 hours from internal batteries on the R-44 while running 4 channels with phantom power.  The only way you're going to know for sure is to do a runtime test at home before the big gig.  To play devil's advocate, that's not necessarily a guarantee either: back when I was running my R-44 strictly off internals, I improperly recharged a set of AA batteries that crapped out on me less than 20 minutes into a show and had to do a comically quick deck shutdown and battery switch-out.

With the supplies of the venerated DVD batteries apparently all dried up and them being sold at high prices, I would suggest taking a look at THESE BATTERIES if you have the funds for one.  Seems like a pretty good contender and cheap insurance/peace of mind against running out of juice when you need it.



Offline jb63

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2012, 05:48:47 PM »
Here's another quick question...

After the show I have this folder on the card:

121108224550.pjt

it contains 1a.wav & 2a.wav

I'm assuming 1a is channels 1 & 2 and 2a is channels 3 & 4. I've been through the manual and about half of 5 threads, 21 pages each, but still can't quite get it. At what point can I rename these in the machine, and can I do so before I ever push record? Does the number of the folder actually mean anything?

My first run was loads of fun. 2.1 hours with 4 channels phantom on 4 AA Nimh. They weren't even charged up in the past week.

The show was short, so I stopped and started a new track after and recorded the howling wind until the batteries saved the file and shut the thing off.

The only thing that I wasn't ready for was the level meters, which I ran peaking at about -3db but the files had to be amplified almost 200% after.
So I guess, run hot?

Anyway, I like it more than the 2r2d, but it IS a handful!
this is definitely not normal

Offline jibooer

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2012, 07:35:07 PM »
Check p.63 of yer manual to change the project name, p.62 for date/time....the r-44 will sequentially name the files withing your project. The numbers are the date and time. i.e, Nov.8,2012 at 22:45:50.

Please give us some details as to your mic setup and situation then we might be able to chime in on your levels. Keep in mind that you should keep the inner knobs (longer ones) at 12 o'clock. It is surprising to me that if you were peaking at -3db that it was necessary to amplify that much in post, IMO that is as 'hot' as I would ever run the R-44...
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 07:37:47 PM by jibooer »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2012, 11:20:19 AM »
Amplifying by 200% is bringing the level up by 6dB. That doesn't seem unreasonable.

The file structure on the Edirol recorders is very easy to manage.   The recorder will play any valid single stereo or mono wav file it sees on the card, but if you want to playback the multichannel recordings, they need to be placed in individual .pjt folders, which I think must be located in the root directory or no more than one level deep in the file structure.  121108224550.pjt is one of those folders.  The folder can be named anything you want, as long as it has the .pjt suffix.  The date setting is convienient for keeping things strait time-wise: 121108224550 = 2012, November, 8th, 10:45:50 PM.  Within any pjt folder the recorder will look for mono, stereo, or multi-channel wav files labled 1.wav / 2.wav / 3.wav etcetera, and will play those simultaneously.  You can recreate the folders and polulate them with wav files renamed to those standards and the machine will play them back simultaneously as multi-channel recordings.

There is no special formatting or creation of special file folders required like with the Tascam machines, a card from a camera will usually work straight away without reformat.
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Offline jb63

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2012, 02:35:09 PM »

Please give us some details as to your mic setup and situation then we might be able to chime in on your levels. Keep in mind that you should keep the inner knobs (longer ones) at 12 o'clock. It is surprising to me that if you were peaking at -3db that it was necessary to amplify that much in post, IMO that is as 'hot' as I would ever run the R-44...

OK, so here is the 1st Run of the R44.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100747

No tests, just read a billion pages, the manual and plugged in 4 mics and went to the show.
I have a LOT of new stuff I've been experimenting with, and while I'm still not sure exactly what I want to matrix, I decided to run the R44 first with both the dpa mics (4061 & 4021). Both of them really like to have the full 48v of phantom, so that's what I did. The mics were side by side with the 4061s running Y and the 4021s running XY (I think that's the right terminology.)

The schoepsMK5 were set to card, but I really like the omni setting better, so I'm going to try that tonight. I ran them into the Apogee Mini MP with the output set on Zero, and the levels set at about 40. The MR2 ran Line-In and was set at -4db. (yes, I realize that this is an R44 thread, but it seemed relevant)

When I started the show, both inner and outer knobs were at 12 o'clock, but during the soundcheck I tried to adjust the center knobs to balance everything out. I had read here that the outer knob left artifacts if moved so I thought that a minute bit of the inner knob wiggling would be OK. You can see from the picture how it ended up after the show and more endless inner-knob wiggling. Not OK, I think.

It was still peaking at -3db for the hot parts.

The next show I left the inner knob alone and only used the outer knob. I haven't figured out the display settings exactly to monitor what happens when you move this one, but I got a better tape, and every time I would adjust one channel, it would seem to make all of them level out a bit.
Show 2 was a loud drum'n'bass show, and the original "both knobs at 12" setting was way over the peak, but when looking at the file, once I brought it down to the safer -3db peak, it is really, really low.

With a freshly charged set of enloop 2000mAh batteries I scored exactly 2:38:10 which is not the safety net of the 3 hour DAT, but there is pretty much nothing I will need an external battery for If I can keep this up. There may be times when I want to just let it run and would have to swap batteries at some point but this is a good solid block of time.

The 2nd picture shows where the levels ended up, and the 3rd is the wav file.
this is definitely not normal

Offline bryonsos

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2012, 02:52:19 PM »

Please give us some details as to your mic setup and situation then we might be able to chime in on your levels. Keep in mind that you should keep the inner knobs (longer ones) at 12 o'clock. It is surprising to me that if you were peaking at -3db that it was necessary to amplify that much in post, IMO that is as 'hot' as I would ever run the R-44...

OK, so here is the 1st Run of the R44.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100747

No tests, just read a billion pages, the manual and plugged in 4 mics and went to the show.
I have a LOT of new stuff I've been experimenting with, and while I'm still not sure exactly what I want to matrix, I decided to run the R44 first with both the dpa mics (4061 & 4021). Both of them really like to have the full 48v of phantom, so that's what I did. The mics were side by side with the 4061s running Y and the 4021s running XY (I think that's the right terminology.)

The schoepsMK5 were set to card, but I really like the omni setting better, so I'm going to try that tonight. I ran them into the Apogee Mini MP with the output set on Zero, and the levels set at about 40. The MR2 ran Line-In and was set at -4db. (yes, I realize that this is an R44 thread, but it seemed relevant)

When I started the show, both inner and outer knobs were at 12 o'clock, but during the soundcheck I tried to adjust the center knobs to balance everything out. I had read here that the outer knob left artifacts if moved so I thought that a minute bit of the inner knob wiggling would be OK. You can see from the picture how it ended up after the show and more endless inner-knob wiggling. Not OK, I think.

It was still peaking at -3db for the hot parts.

The next show I left the inner knob alone and only used the outer knob. I haven't figured out the display settings exactly to monitor what happens when you move this one, but I got a better tape, and every time I would adjust one channel, it would seem to make all of them level out a bit.
Show 2 was a loud drum'n'bass show, and the original "both knobs at 12" setting was way over the peak, but when looking at the file, once I brought it down to the safer -3db peak, it is really, really low.

With a freshly charged set of enloop 2000mAh batteries I scored exactly 2:38:10 which is not the safety net of the 3 hour DAT, but there is pretty much nothing I will need an external battery for If I can keep this up. There may be times when I want to just let it run and would have to swap batteries at some point but this is a good solid block of time.

The 2nd picture shows where the levels ended up, and the 3rd is the wav file.

Nice. FWIW, I always have the outer knob set at 11:00 and use the inner to manage the peaks. You're right, if you adjust the outer knobs during the music, you'll hear a pretty dramatic dip on the recording. It can be fixed in post, but it's a PITA. You can run the levels pretty high, to where it looks like they might be clipping. As long as the little box at the right of the meter doesn't fill in, you're not peaking.
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Offline cybergaloot

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2012, 03:09:11 PM »

Please give us some details as to your mic setup and situation then we might be able to chime in on your levels. Keep in mind that you should keep the inner knobs (longer ones) at 12 o'clock. It is surprising to me that if you were peaking at -3db that it was necessary to amplify that much in post, IMO that is as 'hot' as I would ever run the R-44...

OK, so here is the 1st Run of the R44.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100747

No tests, just read a billion pages, the manual and plugged in 4 mics and went to the show.
I have a LOT of new stuff I've been experimenting with, and while I'm still not sure exactly what I want to matrix, I decided to run the R44 first with both the dpa mics (4061 & 4021). Both of them really like to have the full 48v of phantom, so that's what I did. The mics were side by side with the 4061s running Y and the 4021s running XY (I think that's the right terminology.)

The schoepsMK5 were set to card, but I really like the omni setting better, so I'm going to try that tonight. I ran them into the Apogee Mini MP with the output set on Zero, and the levels set at about 40. The MR2 ran Line-In and was set at -4db. (yes, I realize that this is an R44 thread, but it seemed relevant)

When I started the show, both inner and outer knobs were at 12 o'clock, but during the soundcheck I tried to adjust the center knobs to balance everything out. I had read here that the outer knob left artifacts if moved so I thought that a minute bit of the inner knob wiggling would be OK. You can see from the picture how it ended up after the show and more endless inner-knob wiggling. Not OK, I think.

It was still peaking at -3db for the hot parts.

The next show I left the inner knob alone and only used the outer knob. I haven't figured out the display settings exactly to monitor what happens when you move this one, but I got a better tape, and every time I would adjust one channel, it would seem to make all of them level out a bit.
Show 2 was a loud drum'n'bass show, and the original "both knobs at 12" setting was way over the peak, but when looking at the file, once I brought it down to the safer -3db peak, it is really, really low.

With a freshly charged set of enloop 2000mAh batteries I scored exactly 2:38:10 which is not the safety net of the 3 hour DAT, but there is pretty much nothing I will need an external battery for If I can keep this up. There may be times when I want to just let it run and would have to swap batteries at some point but this is a good solid block of time.

The 2nd picture shows where the levels ended up, and the 3rd is the wav file.

Nice. FWIW, I always have the outer knob set at 11:00 and use the inner to manage the peaks. You're right, if you adjust the outer knobs during the music, you'll hear a pretty dramatic dip on the recording. It can be fixed in post, but it's a PITA. You can run the levels pretty high, to where it looks like they might be clipping. As long as the little box at the right of the meter doesn't fill in, you're not peaking.

Close but not quite. If the channel names reverse colors, then you have analog clipping. If the little box on the right fills in, then you have digital clipping. Generally I leave the digital knob at 12 noon (unity) and just adjust the analog knob. There are situations where I do add some digital gain but that's mainly if I'm supplying something else through the line outs. Otherwise I deal with it in post.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #56 on: November 15, 2012, 03:32:44 PM »
Good Mr cybergaloot beat me to the post on the knob thing and clipping-

Minor inner know tweakage is fine if you don't want to bother making that adjustment on the computer later.  The potential problem with setting the inner-knobs lower than 12:00 is that the levels can then appear OK on the meters when they may have already clipped.  That’s because the inner adjustment is a digital one made after the converter and the little box indicating clipping at the right end of each meter is a digital over meter.  In contrast, the outer knob adjusts analog input sensitivity before the converter.  I think there is a separate indication of analog clipping by the channel number inverting its background, but I can’t remember.  If you run the inner knob lower than noon, check that out and watch for clipping the analog input stage.

I ran 4061s and a pair of small AT cardioids (substituting for larger/heavier Gefell cards) into the R44 through Naiant PFAs for a 4 day funk festival last weekend.  I purposefully chose to take the R44 because it is near bullet-proof, simple to run and I knew it would 'just plain work' without complications even in challenging conditions.

As for mixing you might try starting with the 4061 pair, balancing that, then bringing up the X/Y 4021s until the center is clear and solid.  Or go the other way and start with the X/Y pair and bring up the omnis to make it more wide and full.  It usually works best if the omnis are spaced far enough apart with enough distance from the cardioids.  I like 4060s/4061s spaced something like 6' best if you can when combined with a center mic or pair, but 3’ or 4’ works.  If you are adventurous, consider trying what I've been doing recently- space the omnis 6' and put both cardioids in the center like before, but point one directly forward and one backwards, with 12" or so between them.  I've done that for two festivals this fall, one section taping (using the Gefells) and one FOB in the impact zone (using the smaller ATs) and that setup simply smoked it both times.  Mixed with the omnis, the front cardioid fills the center and give a nice frequency balance and forward presence, and the rear facing cardioid offers control over ambience and the amount of crowd reaction from the rear.  You sacrifice using the cards alone, but I think its worth it.  It also works really great for surround playback- ‘you are there again’.

But it does look funny.
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #57 on: November 15, 2012, 03:59:20 PM »
Good Mr cybergaloot beat me to the post on the knob thing and clipping-

Minor inner know tweakage is fine if you don't want to bother making that adjustment on the computer later.  The potential problem with setting the inner-knobs lower than 12:00 is that the levels can then appear OK on the meters when they may have already clipped.  That’s because the inner adjustment is a digital one made after the converter and the little box indicating clipping at the right end of each meter is a digital over meter.  In contrast, the outer knob adjusts analog input sensitivity before the converter.  I think there is a separate indication of analog clipping by the channel number inverting its background, but I can’t remember.  If you run the inner knob lower than noon, check that out and watch for clipping the analog input stage.

I ran 4061s and a pair of small AT cardioids (substituting for larger/heavier Gefell cards) into the R44 through Naiant PFAs for a 4 day funk festival last weekend.  I purposefully chose to take the R44 because it is near bullet-proof, simple to run and I knew it would 'just plain work' without complications even in challenging conditions.

As for mixing you might try starting with the 4061 pair, balancing that, then bringing up the X/Y 4021s until the center is clear and solid.  Or go the other way and start with the X/Y pair and bring up the omnis to make it more wide and full.  It usually works best if the omnis are spaced far enough apart with enough distance from the cardioids.  I like 4060s/4061s spaced something like 6' best if you can when combined with a center mic or pair, but 3’ or 4’ works.  If you are adventurous, consider trying what I've been doing recently- space the omnis 6' and put both cardioids in the center like before, but point one directly forward and one backwards, with 12" or so between them.  I've done that for two festivals this fall, one section taping (using the Gefells) and one FOB in the impact zone (using the smaller ATs) and that setup simply smoked it both times.  Mixed with the omnis, the front cardioid fills the center and give a nice frequency balance and forward presence, and the rear facing cardioid offers control over ambience and the amount of crowd reaction from the rear.  You sacrifice using the cards alone, but I think its worth it.  It also works really great for surround playback- ‘you are there again’.

But it does look funny.


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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2012, 04:03:06 PM »
Interesting. I didn't know noon was unity, and haven't seen the color change thing, you learn something every day. Having said that, my tapes sound fine to my ears using 11:00 as a setting, and I can set it and forget it in all the rooms I regularly tape in. What can I say, I'm a creature of habit.
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Offline acidjack

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2012, 04:13:29 PM »
Interesting. I didn't know noon was unity, and haven't seen the color change thing, you learn something every day. Having said that, my tapes sound fine to my ears using 11:00 as a setting, and I can set it and forget it in all the rooms I regularly tape in. What can I say, I'm a creature of habit.

I similarly find that the outer knob usually needs to be at about 11 (or lower if I'm taking an SBD feed).  What I had not known until recently was about the inner knob being digital gain and the potential issues there.  The lesson is that it's best to (a) run the levels conservatively in general and (b) really only use that knob for minimal trim.  Also, if I read this right, it's OK to use that to BOOST the signal (i.e., run it past 12 o'clock), just not reduce it, since that creates the potential clipping issue.

FWIW in probably 300+ recordings with that deck I've never had that happen. 
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