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Author Topic: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences  (Read 35538 times)

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Offline guysonic

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #60 on: February 09, 2014, 12:14:49 AM »
I've stumbled upon a comparison between D50's internal microphones and the Roland CS-10 binaurals which Ozpeter suggested. The jump in quality was simply gobsmacking, not only in terms of stereo field but also the overall level of detail. Judging by the looks of things, the M10 + a pair of binaurals might be the only equipment I'll ever need for my purposes, considering that I probably won't be able to shell out for an external preamp. I'm only worried about microphonics and wind noise, as I've heard that CS-10's are really sensitive. Are there any decent DIY windscreen solutions for such mics? 

Both Sony PCM-M10 & D50 models have very, very low noise mic preamps when set in LOW mic input sensitivity and inputs are virtually overload proof, so no external preamp is required. 
Most all windscreens detract from the natural sound reception of the microphone by introducing artifacts due to the synthetic materials used. 
Exception is the custom windscreen for my custom DSM mics made by me for over 2 decades using natural fiber material.  See http://www.sonicstudios.com/access.htm#whb

An owner of a suitable rig meant for these discussed purposes recently sent a system on consignment to offer interested recordists.

Scores of raw mp3 encoded recordings made with the DSM-1S model found at: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3.htm
Anyone interested in this rig please contact me at guysonic@aol.com

« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 12:18:54 AM by guysonic »
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Offline dream

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #61 on: February 09, 2014, 08:01:45 AM »
I've stumbled upon a comparison between D50's internal microphones and the Roland CS-10 binaurals which Ozpeter suggested. The jump in quality was simply gobsmacking, not only in terms of stereo field but also the overall level of detail.


I also use this combination with great success (ambience recording): D-50 + CS-10EM. It's no KU-100 but sounds very good - very useable results. Roland has a winner with the CS-10EM.

Offline Amatsubu

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2014, 04:02:11 PM »
Church Audio mics are designed for the needs of what most of us do here--recording live music. To protect the recording from overload in loud situations, they deliberately have a lower sensitivity than many other mics. For nature recording you would want higher sensitivity.

Since Chris builds his mics by hand, you should contact him, tell him your recording needs and see if he can make you a high-sensitivity version. He'll probably have other sensible advice, too. Also look at his CA-10, for non-amplified sounds.   

Note that the Rolands go in your ears, which places them in position for HRTF: Head Related Transfer Function, which is a fancy way of saying that because your head is between the mics,  you get that spatial separation you heard.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-related_transfer_function

That's true binaural recording, which the audio purists will tell you is different from simply setting up two omni mics.

Have you looked into that Nature Recordists group at Yahoo?

Yeah, I know Church Audio mics are geared towards people recording live music. That's why I wasn't sure about using them for ambience recording.
I know Rolands work in HRTF position with your own head assuming the role of a natural baffle, hence the realistic stereo field. I also know it's different from simply setting up omnis in AB position (which some people call "pseudo-binaural recording"), as the sound isn't affected by the pinnae of your ears.



I also use this combination with great success (ambience recording): D-50 + CS-10EM. It's no KU-100 but sounds very good - very useable results. Roland has a winner with the CS-10EM.

Thanks! M10 + CS-1EM seems like the best cost-effective setup within my limited budget. I think it should yield results similar in quality to your combo. I still have a couple of months to make my decision and I've heard that Zoom H5 is coming out soon. Depending on its price, it might be worth looking into.




Offline Xonic

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2014, 07:13:22 PM »
Amatsubu, I'm in the same position as you and asked the same question more or less, a few weeks ago. here's a few observations I've made over the past couple of years:

 there are, IMHO, no decent stereo mics on the market for anything under about £800. Yes there are some mics about and I'm sure a few people could name some on here, but all of them have in my opinion, some really annoying quirqks. When I say stereo mics, I mean handheld. Added to that, you then need a sepperate device for recording. Again, a lot of these have quirks.

Binaural recording is great, but only really if you listen back through headphones. I have a set of binaurals, the bmc3s and honestly whilst the head image is lovely, it never ever translates  as well to speakers. Additionally, it's very hard to protect against wind noise, cable movement and russling. The last 2 can be done but it's a bit of a gamble. Example, I wear a croakie to affix the binaurals to my glasses. No one else has issue with this that I've heard of, but for me, my hair crackles against it every time I turn my head. Binaural is good, I'd just advise considering something else as well if you want to play back on speakres and get the same effect.

For my money right now, portable recorder with internal mics, I'd go for the zoom h6 because: It has a reasonably low noise flaw on the internals. Certainly you're unlikely to notice it in most situations unless the area around you is almost totally silent. The  noise it does exhibit is, oddly enough, like a very low wind through trees, which might work well in your case. Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you can hear it all the time in fact the majority of the time I have to look for it on my recordings and never come across it. I hate repeate  hate noise flaw with a passion so I'd not use it if it were there. It has 2 types of mics that come with it, an ms wwhich is... interesting, and xy which are nice. It also has different modules including a shotgun you can plug on to it which might be exactly what you need. It also has some surprisingly really good preamps, 4 of them in fact, which you could use for plugging in additional mics later. My point here is that you'll have a lot of options to play with and can find what works best for you. You will likely need a rycote and suspension to get the most out of this for £100, but it's not entirely necessary, I just recommend it.
Finally, it has a line input, which you could use for plugging in binaural microphones. The batteries on internals are truly insane. I've been recording with it everywhere since the end of November and only changed the 4 AAs once. I like that it has 4 AAs as well, wop them out and then stick some new ones in in under 30 seconds if you're good, and you can always get AAs wherever you are. The bootup time is amazing, it's all up and running in about 4 seconds for me and that is absolutely crucial when you're recording.
The whole thing comes in a little case which for you might be really handy.

I'm not sure I agree re the sony d-100. The internals are... ok, but for the price, I'm really not sure. Also, and I realise some people may really disagree with this one, I've never had anything from sony, bar a playstation which actually lasted and it makes me very nervous about buyhing anything. You have their own brand batteries which are going to be hard to come by unless you have spares as well. The whole thing just makes me nervous. Maybe I need to play with one when it comes out and have my mind changed.

The one thing I'll say about all of this gear, is that vyou've not really considered wind protection. None of these recorders work very well with that. The ls-100 is just utterly pointless in this regard, don't even consider it if you're going anywhere windy. I've tried all sorts of things and the wind gets in there. You can even blow into the hold switch on the side and the wind comes in. Just no. If you're going to be recording somewhere very very windy like the sea, a rycote blimp is what you'll probably need and unfortunately that will set you back quite a bit, not to mention you'll need an external mic for the job.

So, some random thoughts for you there, hope it helped, drop me a line with any questions, I'll let you know if I ever find something I like without quirks :)

Offline Amatsubu

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2014, 01:11:53 PM »
Amatsubu, I'm in the same position as you and asked the same question more or less, a few weeks ago. here's a few observations I've made over the past couple of years:

 there are, IMHO, no decent stereo mics on the market for anything under about £800. Yes there are some mics about and I'm sure a few people could name some on here, but all of them have in my opinion, some really annoying quirqks. When I say stereo mics, I mean handheld. Added to that, you then need a sepperate device for recording. Again, a lot of these have quirks.

Binaural recording is great, but only really if you listen back through headphones. I have a set of binaurals, the bmc3s and honestly whilst the head image is lovely, it never ever translates  as well to speakers. Additionally, it's very hard to protect against wind noise, cable movement and russling. The last 2 can be done but it's a bit of a gamble. Example, I wear a croakie to affix the binaurals to my glasses. No one else has issue with this that I've heard of, but for me, my hair crackles against it every time I turn my head. Binaural is good, I'd just advise considering something else as well if you want to play back on speakres and get the same effect.

For my money right now, portable recorder with internal mics, I'd go for the zoom h6 because: It has a reasonably low noise flaw on the internals. Certainly you're unlikely to notice it in most situations unless the area around you is almost totally silent. The  noise it does exhibit is, oddly enough, like a very low wind through trees, which might work well in your case. Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you can hear it all the time in fact the majority of the time I have to look for it on my recordings and never come across it. I hate repeate  hate noise flaw with a passion so I'd not use it if it were there. It has 2 types of mics that come with it, an ms wwhich is... interesting, and xy which are nice. It also has different modules including a shotgun you can plug on to it which might be exactly what you need. It also has some surprisingly really good preamps, 4 of them in fact, which you could use for plugging in additional mics later. My point here is that you'll have a lot of options to play with and can find what works best for you. You will likely need a rycote and suspension to get the most out of this for £100, but it's not entirely necessary, I just recommend it.
Finally, it has a line input, which you could use for plugging in binaural microphones. The batteries on internals are truly insane. I've been recording with it everywhere since the end of November and only changed the 4 AAs once. I like that it has 4 AAs as well, wop them out and then stick some new ones in in under 30 seconds if you're good, and you can always get AAs wherever you are. The bootup time is amazing, it's all up and running in about 4 seconds for me and that is absolutely crucial when you're recording.
The whole thing comes in a little case which for you might be really handy.

I'm not sure I agree re the sony d-100. The internals are... ok, but for the price, I'm really not sure. Also, and I realise some people may really disagree with this one, I've never had anything from sony, bar a playstation which actually lasted and it makes me very nervous about buyhing anything. You have their own brand batteries which are going to be hard to come by unless you have spares as well. The whole thing just makes me nervous. Maybe I need to play with one when it comes out and have my mind changed.

The one thing I'll say about all of this gear, is that vyou've not really considered wind protection. None of these recorders work very well with that. The ls-100 is just utterly pointless in this regard, don't even consider it if you're going anywhere windy. I've tried all sorts of things and the wind gets in there. You can even blow into the hold switch on the side and the wind comes in. Just no. If you're going to be recording somewhere very very windy like the sea, a rycote blimp is what you'll probably need and unfortunately that will set you back quite a bit, not to mention you'll need an external mic for the job.

So, some random thoughts for you there, hope it helped, drop me a line with any questions, I'll let you know if I ever find something I like without quirks :)


Thanks for the insightful feedback! I'm well aware that compromises have to be made at this price point. I've already taken into account all the annoying quirks of binaural mics. I know they don't translate well to normal speakers but I don't really care about the lifelike stereo field. I've listened to a couple of different recordings on loudspeakers and they sounded rather good. Wind protection might be a major pain in the arse and that's what I fear the most. As for the shotgun mic, I don't think I'd find any use for it as I'm mainly after recording general ambiences, not specific sounds (well, I might try that as well somewhere down the road). I like the small form factor and the dependability of the M10. Allegedly, it's the quietest recorder out there within its price point. However, the lack of XLR inputs is a significant downside. Zoom H6 looks nice but at this point I might as well wait for the H5 as I certainly won't need 4 XLR inputs and all the additional bells and whistles. Still, the little Sony clicks with me the most.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 02:12:15 PM by Amatsubu »

Offline earmonger

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #65 on: February 17, 2014, 11:18:39 AM »
By the way, if you want to check out some precise  measurements by real nature recording experts/scientists/fanatics:

http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

And now you know where to look when you need a mic to record ultrasound...

Offline old and in the way

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #66 on: February 17, 2014, 01:19:53 PM »
 Check out the oade brothers marantz 661 or 620 mk11 super mods ..

Offline dogmusic

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2014, 06:23:50 PM »

I'm not sure I agree re the sony d-100. The internals are... ok, but for the price, I'm really not sure. Also, and I realise some people may really disagree with this one, I've never had anything from sony, bar a playstation which actually lasted and it makes me very nervous about buyhing anything. You have their own brand batteries which are going to be hard to come by unless you have spares as well. The whole thing just makes me nervous. Maybe I need to play with one when it comes out and have my mind changed.

The one thing I'll say about all of this gear, is that vyou've not really considered wind protection.

Perhaps it's just good luck, but I have Sony equipment that I bought 35 years ago (TCD5M) that still works fine.

And there's a lot of experience on this forum with Sony recorders -- MD as well as the M10 -- and all pretty positive on their longevity.

The batteries for the D100 are just standard AA -- four of them.

As for wind protection, the D100 comes with a furry windscreen, as well as a case and remote.
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Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2014, 01:20:56 AM »
Quote
Binaural recording is great, but only really if you listen back through headphones. I have a set of binaurals, the bmc3s and honestly whilst the head image is lovely, it never ever translates  as well to speakers.

Personally, I disagree, at least as far as the Roland mics are concerned.  But - stereo perception is a highly subjective thing, so what I like and what you like could well differ substantially.

I used to work with an experienced classical music producer, who could spot a bum note before the musician had even thought of playing it, and whose judgement on matters of intonation was impeccable.   But he couldn't tell the difference between mono and stereo!

Offline John Willett

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2014, 08:14:32 AM »
I used to work with an experienced classical music producer, who could spot a bum note before the musician had even thought of playing it, and whose judgement on matters of intonation was impeccable.   But he couldn't tell the difference between mono and stereo!

This is normal - a musician is tuned for listening to the performance.

This is why i Work with a Producer when I am recording - I hear the whole, he hears the performance - together we get a great result.

Offline guysonic

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2014, 04:47:00 AM »
Recent loss of my favorite Nature recording mic prompted a real-world simultaneous  comparison using an available atypical mic model. 

This test is shown www.sonicstudios.com/dsm.htm#chart

The YouTube video is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rQFain2FPA

More universal playback HRTF type Nature recordings http://www.sonicstudios.com/mp3.htm.
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Offline kevinsinnott

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Re: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences
« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2014, 01:51:43 PM »

The FR-2LE's internal mivcs were not designed to be used for recording, rather as emergency note-takers.  It was designed to be used with external mics, which it does superbly.

It's batter than virtually all of the pocket machines.

Hello, John. I realize it's been awhile, but are you saying the FR-2LE's mic pres are high quality and low noise? I'm asking because I have an Edirol R44 and while it's pretty good, I must admit it does not rival the Sound Devices units I've heard. I suppose I'm trying to determine of the FR-2LE might be a step up for me for interviews and recording music (2 channel) or ambient without separate mic preamps.

 

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