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Author Topic: Getting back in the taping scene after 10 years.  (Read 10207 times)

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Offline Gene Poole

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Getting back in the taping scene after 10 years.
« on: August 17, 2014, 11:41:06 PM »
I've been away from the taping scene for far too long.  I'm looking to get back in and I wonder if my gear is still viable.  My kit back in the day consisted of a pair of Neuman SKM-184s, a Denecke PS2 for 48V phantom power, fed into a pair of Audio Technica CP8201 baluns to the line-in of a Sony SBM-1, then finally a Sony PCM-M1 DAT at 48K.

I bought an M-Audio Microtrack 24/96 mainly because it had an S/PDIF in and would make bit-perfect copies of my DATs for transfer to PC.  I also have an M-Audio Transit USB 24/96 purchased originally as an interface for laptop recording.

I've recently tried testing various setups using the equipment above and to my old ears, I can't tell a difference in quality.  I've tried the original configuration (mics > PS-2 > SBM1 >S/PDIF > DAT) as well as some other arrangements like: mics > PS-2 > Microtrack (balanced TRS-in) at 24/96; mics > PS-2 > baluns > SBM1; mics > PS-2 > straight to SBM-1 1/4 ins (no baluns); mics > ps-2 > baluns line-in of transit USB > laptop; mics > ps-2 > baluns line-in of transit USB >Android phone.  They all sound pretty much the same to me except the Transit USB setup (either to laptop or Android phone) which seemed fuller to my ears even though I had to post process it somewhat as it was the weakest of the signals and needed some amplification.

I tried to be less subjective and look at the spectrum analyses of the above combinations (with my mics pointed at a speaker spitting out pink noise), but I really don't know what I'm looking for in the plots.

I'm not opposed to purchasing new equipment and have been eyeing the Tascam DR-40 and  DR-100mkII as potential bit buckets for my recording.  I like that they both offer 48V phantom via XLR and I can eliminate the Denecke PS-2 (I also was able to power the Neumans with the MT24/96 and its 30V phantom with on discernible difference over the Denecke except the reduced battery life).

Any comments from anybody using any similar gear is greatly appreciated.

I'd love to hear some opinions on what you think of all this and what

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Getting back in the taping scene after 10 years.
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2014, 03:12:06 AM »
Well ditch the DAT due to the reliability concerns...  One never knows when a tape will start (or end) badly. 

The SBM and the DAT would both put you in the 16bit realm.  Some are Ok with that but if you don't need to be there it seems best to use the 24bit gear you have available. 

Beyond that the least in the signal path (usually) the better. 

Your mics should be fine if you like them.  The Microtrack is fine as a bit bucket (line-in).  I'd probably avoid the phone.  Not sure what your path or bit depth would be there. 

Pink noise is probably not the best test.

I'd go with:

mics > PS-2 > Microtrack (line-in) at 24/96 (some might say 24-48 is enough)

and keep it simple.   
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline dallman

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Re: Getting back in the taping scene after 10 years.
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2014, 03:37:57 PM »
Well ditch the DAT due to the reliability concerns...  One never knows when a tape will start (or end) badly. 

The SBM and the DAT would both put you in the 16bit realm.  Some are Ok with that but if you don't need to be there it seems best to use the 24bit gear you have available. 

Beyond that the least in the signal path (usually) the better. 

Your mics should be fine if you like them.  The Microtrack is fine as a bit bucket (line-in).  I'd probably avoid the phone.  Not sure what your path or bit depth would be there. 

Pink noise is probably not the best test.

I'd go with:

mics > PS-2 > Microtrack (line-in) at 24/96 (some might say 24-48 is enough)

and keep it simple.

I agree with this response. This would work great. The other bit buckets are fine too, but as a bit bucket offer no particular advantage. You can always add one if you decide you want more or newer down the road, but there is no need.
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Offline H₂O

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Re: Getting back in the taping scene after 10 years.
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2014, 03:43:31 PM »
Just buy a Tascam DR-100mkII, a DR-680, a Tinybox>M10, or a used Tascam HD-P2 and be done with it
Music can at the least least explain you and at the most expand you
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Offline Gene Poole

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Re: Getting back in the taping scene after 10 years.
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2014, 10:16:53 PM »
Well ditch the DAT due to the reliability concerns...  One never knows when a tape will start (or end) badly. 

The SBM and the DAT would both put you in the 16bit realm.  Some are Ok with that but if you don't need to be there it seems best to use the 24bit gear you have available. 

Beyond that the least in the signal path (usually) the better. 

Your mics should be fine if you like them.  The Microtrack is fine as a bit bucket (line-in).  I'd probably avoid the phone.  Not sure what your path or bit depth would be there. 

Pink noise is probably not the best test.

I'd go with:

mics > PS-2 > Microtrack (line-in) at 24/96 (some might say 24-48 is enough)

and keep it simple.

I guess I just don't feel totally comfortable with something like the MT24/96 because of it's cheapie feel.  Does 24/96 with mediocre pres and ADC trump the SBM1's high quality pres and super bit mapping but only 16/48?

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Getting back in the taping scene after 10 years.
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2014, 10:40:31 PM »
Well I guess the question is whether the pres in the MT are engaged or not if you go line in, though you do also have the ADC involved.  MT's do have a cheap feel though I'm not sure how good or bad what's "under the hood" actually is. 

As someone else said there are lots of recorders out there.  A Sony PCM-M10 is a little over $200 new...  If that puts your mind at ease it's a nice piece of kit one can't go wrong with. 

I'm all for 24 bit but some fine recordings were made on cassette decks too, so it's relative.  Mics and position are the starting point.  Moving on from there it becomes finer (assuming a reasonable level of function and fidelity in the rest of the chain), though the differences can still be fairly dramatic when circumstances push the limits of what you have to work with. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

adrianf74

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Re: Getting back in the taping scene after 10 years.
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2014, 10:54:04 PM »
+1 to the M-10 being pretty much bullet-proof.  Out of all the decks I've owned, the M10 has never failed me ONCE (except for the time where I failed it; that would be operator error).  And for $200, it's a steal.


Offline Phil Zone

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Re: Getting back in the taping scene after 10 years.
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2014, 11:24:24 PM »
M10 all the way.

Your mics are still sweet and will always be regarded as great, the pre is solid and does its job, nothing to fancy but a good power supply no doubt. An m10 or a d50 would be very well fit. Simple and reliable is all you need.


For now...
Microphones: AKG 460B, 480B, Naiant Actives,CK61,CK62,CK63, CK69, Busman BSC-1, CA-14
Preamps: (3) Naiant Littlebox, Naiant Tinyhead
Recorders: (2) Zoom F6, Tascam DR-05

LMA Shows: http://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Cam%20Keough%22&sort=-date

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Getting back in the taping scene after 10 years.
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2014, 11:41:59 PM »
See also the end of this thread regarding the question of internal circuitry:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=169485.msg2105484

Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline willndmb

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Re: Getting back in the taping scene after 10 years.
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2014, 09:01:43 AM »
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=167886.0
Sweet all in one for the price
Uses same cf card as your mt and can run for like 7 hrs on a 3300mah rc battery
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

Offline sunboy

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Re: Getting back in the taping scene after 10 years.
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2014, 09:00:28 PM »
Gene Poole, if you still desire a well cared for SBM-1, with all original packaging, adapters, receipts  etc I have one that's been stored zipped for years, have recent pictures if requested.
Priced to move...
Have a couple of 7 pin adapters also.
Still have a PCM-M1 but I am keeping that for transfers if my other two rack DAT units don't behave.
All the previous posts give great advice on options depending on your personal preference.

I patched a Sony D-8 DAT out of my SD722 for Peach Fest all last weekend for someone and I forgot how solid and heavy a unit that is or was(sold mine years ago) compared to my plastic M10 that doesn't even accept a digi signal(sigh).

Even saw a taper run a Sony D-5 cassette deck all weekend, people were stopping and taking pictures. Said he hates the digital sound and prefers the warmth of the analog sound compared to 1's & 0's, but tough to find good cassettes these days. :o

Haven't seen a field HHb field CDR out in a quite awhile...









 
Neumann AK40>LC3>KM100>Lunatec V2/Aeta PSP3>Apogee Mini-Me>SD722/Sony PCM-M10

Offline H₂O

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Re: Getting back in the taping scene after 10 years.
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2014, 10:21:31 PM »
Haven't seen a field HHb field CDR out in a quite awhile...


HHB never made a portable cd-r
Only Marantz did to my knowledge (CDR300)


HHB did make:
 - 2 portable DAT recorders (one a relabeled Awia deck and the other the Portadat)
 - 1 portabe Mindisc - Portadisc
 - 1 portable Hard Drive recorder - Portadrive


If you are going to run analog you should cut to the chase and get a Nagra IV-S Reel2Reel and run mega reels at 15ips (cassette tape nowadays is just snake oil for ~ analog sound) - Or just run DSD (Sony PCM-D100) if you like the Analog sound to make life alot easier

Music can at the least least explain you and at the most expand you
LMA Recordings

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Offline Gene Poole

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Re: Getting back in the taping scene after 10 years.
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2014, 12:17:12 AM »
Gene Poole, if you still desire a well cared for SBM-1, with all original packaging, adapters, receipts  etc I have one that's been stored zipped for years, have recent pictures if requested.
Priced to move...
Have a couple of 7 pin adapters also.
Still have a PCM-M1 but I am keeping that for transfers if my other two rack DAT units don't behave.
All the previous posts give great advice on options depending on your personal preference.

I patched a Sony D-8 DAT out of my SD722 for Peach Fest all last weekend for someone and I forgot how solid and heavy a unit that is or was(sold mine years ago) compared to my plastic M10 that doesn't even accept a digi signal(sigh).

Even saw a taper run a Sony D-5 cassette deck all weekend, people were stopping and taking pictures. Said he hates the digital sound and prefers the warmth of the analog sound compared to 1's & 0's, but tough to find good cassettes these days. :o

Haven't seen a field HHb field CDR out in a quite awhile...

I appreciate the offer, but I already have a fully functional SBM-1.  Back in the day, the SBM-1, with its super bit mapping 20 to 16 algorithm, was one of the best A/D converters on the market in my humble opinion.  I liked that the SBM-1 had a connector to connect directly to my DAT plus the extra I/O jack so I could provide a digital out to others wishing to patch in.  I remember a Leftover Salmon show where there was a chain of 6 or 7 DAT and minidisc players all chained off my SBM-1 (and a Midiman CO2).  I've been leaning heavily toward the Tascam DR-100 MKII, but the lack of a S/PDIF out has me concerned as I love being able to share my feed with others.

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Re: Getting back in the taping scene after 10 years.
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2014, 12:34:39 AM »
Gene Poole, if you still desire a well cared for SBM-1, with all original packaging, adapters, receipts  etc I have one that's been stored zipped for years, have recent pictures if requested.
Priced to move...
Have a couple of 7 pin adapters also.
Still have a PCM-M1 but I am keeping that for transfers if my other two rack DAT units don't behave.
All the previous posts give great advice on options depending on your personal preference.

I patched a Sony D-8 DAT out of my SD722 for Peach Fest all last weekend for someone and I forgot how solid and heavy a unit that is or was(sold mine years ago) compared to my plastic M10 that doesn't even accept a digi signal(sigh).

Even saw a taper run a Sony D-5 cassette deck all weekend, people were stopping and taking pictures. Said he hates the digital sound and prefers the warmth of the analog sound compared to 1's & 0's, but tough to find good cassettes these days. :o

Haven't seen a field HHb field CDR out in a quite awhile...

I appreciate the offer, but I already have a fully functional SBM-1.  Back in the day, the SBM-1, with its super bit mapping 20 to 16 algorithm, was one of the best A/D converters on the market in my humble opinion.  I liked that the SBM-1 had a connector to connect directly to my DAT plus the extra I/O jack so I could provide a digital out to others wishing to patch in.  I remember a Leftover Salmon show where there was a chain of 6 or 7 DAT and minidisc players all chained off my SBM-1 (and a Midiman CO2).  I've been leaning heavily toward the Tascam DR-100 MKII, but the lack of a S/PDIF out has me concerned as I love being able to share my feed with others.

Not many patches these days! 
Mics: DPA ST4011ER & 4018ER
Preamps: DPA MMA 6000 | Audioroot Femto
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-10 II | Sony PCM A10

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Offline dallman

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Re: Getting back in the taping scene after 10 years.
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2014, 03:10:18 PM »
Gene Poole, if you still desire a well cared for SBM-1, with all original packaging, adapters, receipts  etc I have one that's been stored zipped for years, have recent pictures if requested.
Priced to move...
Have a couple of 7 pin adapters also.
Still have a PCM-M1 but I am keeping that for transfers if my other two rack DAT units don't behave.
All the previous posts give great advice on options depending on your personal preference.

I patched a Sony D-8 DAT out of my SD722 for Peach Fest all last weekend for someone and I forgot how solid and heavy a unit that is or was(sold mine years ago) compared to my plastic M10 that doesn't even accept a digi signal(sigh).

Even saw a taper run a Sony D-5 cassette deck all weekend, people were stopping and taking pictures. Said he hates the digital sound and prefers the warmth of the analog sound compared to 1's & 0's, but tough to find good cassettes these days. :o

Haven't seen a field HHb field CDR out in a quite awhile...

I appreciate the offer, but I already have a fully functional SBM-1.  Back in the day, the SBM-1, with its super bit mapping 20 to 16 algorithm, was one of the best A/D converters on the market in my humble opinion.  I liked that the SBM-1 had a connector to connect directly to my DAT plus the extra I/O jack so I could provide a digital out to others wishing to patch in.  I remember a Leftover Salmon show where there was a chain of 6 or 7 DAT and minidisc players all chained off my SBM-1 (and a Midiman CO2).  I've been leaning heavily toward the Tascam DR-100 MKII, but the lack of a S/PDIF out has me concerned as I love being able to share my feed with others.

It's nice to want to have the digi out for others, but it's true, there does not seem to be a lot of patching these days, and with the new wave of CF and SD decks, there seems to be less people out there with machines that take a S/PDIF feed, so you can offer an analog feed at least. That said the Tascam DR100MKII makes a lot of sense if you are uncomfortable with the MT. It is an easy to use versatile deck. At least it has S/PDIF in to accommodate your gear which makes the most sense. The m10 really does not have digi in or out, so that would seem to be a poor choice for your gear.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 03:17:51 PM by dallman »
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