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Author Topic: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?  (Read 30818 times)

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Offline Argitoth

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Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« on: December 31, 2014, 03:37:50 PM »
I'm trying to decide which mobile recorder to get. Please help! I narrowed it down to:

Sony PCM-M10
Zoom H6
Roland R-05

Whichever is better for recording quiet sounds, that's the one I want. I've read many reviews, watched many videos, but I have yet to find a conclusive simple test as to which of these units' preamps have lower noise floor. (Edit: Not because the tests are bad, but because no test compares any of these on the list sufficiently)

I know this:
Everyone likes M10
Some say R05 has same noise or less nosie than M10
Some say Zoom H6 has "low noise", but no idea how that compares to the above.

I know Zoom H6 is a totally different beast from the other two, but the reason I'm considering buying it is because I need a multichannel setup in the future. It's only a matter of whether I need to buy another device or not after choosing a handheld.

Yes - you may suggest an option not on the list. :)

Just need a place to save links that others may find helpful in teaching and decision making. Will add links as I find them.
Guide to stereo micing: http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Mic-University/StereoTechniques.aspx
Guide to polar patterns: http://ehomerecordingstudio.com/microphone-polar-patterns/
Guide to condenser (aka capacitor) mics: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb98/articles/capacitor.html
Low-noise field recordings: https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/type/www/audio-reports/Rode_NT1-A_Mics/NT1-A_index.htm
Sonic Studios recordings: http://www.sonicstudios.com/mp3.htm
EIN chart: http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm
Shootout (many examples): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXueWADX58s
Shootout (one sound clip): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3HCdmTujAU
Roland R26: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJEsfmGEwwo
Roland R05: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSb0Fzosa3M
M10 vs H4n: http://www.wildmountainechoes.com/equipment/comparing-the-zoom-h4n-and-sony-pcm-m10/
H2n ambient recording: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=171145.msg2121703#msg2121703
Not the best comparison of Sony D50 / D100: https://soundcloud.com/sparrowsrest/comparison-recordings-made-with-the-sony-pcm-d50-pcm-d100-april-2014
voice test Sony M10: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui5w1ZwMhG8
voice test Tascam DR-44WL / Tascam DR-40 / Zoom H5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvncBP04nos
Guitar test Sony D50 / Zoom H6 / Rode NT4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S2eh0gkPSQ
Discussion of low noise mics: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/348812-whats-quietest-mic-available-lowest-noise-nature-recordings.html
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 03:25:08 AM by Argitoth »

Offline willndmb

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2014, 03:55:34 PM »
M10 all the way IMO
Unless you need a lower noise floor and the r05 actually has one there is no reason not to pick an m10
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2014, 06:08:46 PM »
You haven't said what you will use it with, if anything.  External mics connected directly, or via a preamp, or internals only?  Need more info!

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2014, 06:41:52 PM »
M10 all the way IMO
Unless you need a lower noise floor and the r05 actually has one there is no reason not to pick an m10

Ditto. M10 no doubt! Check out the D100 vs. M10 COMP that Tonedeaf posted a few days ago! The M10 sounds just as good IMO!
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2014, 06:50:22 PM »
You haven't said what you will use it with, if anything.  External mics connected directly, or via a preamp, or internals only?  Need more info!
both, at this point I don't care if you say the built-in mics are low noise or that the external mic pre amps are low noise. Either point makes me a happy camper.

That's
2 M10
0 R05
0 H6

Please if you have an opinion, chime in! All replies welcome, but I'm getting quite convinced already, may hit the metaphorical "buy" button soon.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 06:58:09 PM by Argitoth »

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2014, 07:07:46 PM »
I think the M10 shines the most when using it with external mics and an external preamp ;)
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline dmonkey

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2014, 07:19:02 PM »
I love my M10 so much I kiss it goodnight every night before I go to bed.
MK4's, KM140's or MC930's >  Tinybox or Aerco MP-2 > R-09, M-10, R-44 (Oade CM) or MixPre-6

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2014, 07:34:54 PM »
ok guys hold up hold up...

is the taperssection paid by Sony? .... are they "watching us"?? ...  :'( *im scared*

cause if not, I don't think I can be unconvinced that the M10 is what I want.

Offline mitchellm

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2014, 10:14:36 PM »
I'm not answering your real question: so apologies for that.

If you are using a good preamp with almost any of these devices they should work quite nicely. I have the M10 and love it.

However, if you are NOT using an external preamp and you are recording quiet sounds (ambient, etc.) then something like the Sony D100 shines. It has a great internal preamp and have found it a great great recorder. But it's only worth the extra money (at least to me) if you might be using it without a preamp, and recording quieter sounds where the appearance of background noise will become much more apparent. If it's rock and roll, then something like the D100 isn't needed. If it's recording nature sounds as folio for a movie then the D100 is vastly superior to the others (again, assuming you are not using an external great preamp).

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2014, 10:36:59 PM »
Regular forum members please look away, you've heard this before...

There are only two downsides to the M10 and those are -

1 - the built in mics are closely spaced omnis, and that's no way to record a stereo image.  So although they sound fine, they are not suitable for anything where the stereo image is important.

2 - the control layout is a bit odd, but probably people get used to it.

Well, 3 - it doesn't have phantom powered xlr mic inputs, which may or may not be important to you.

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2015, 12:13:12 AM »
1 - the built in mics are closely spaced omnis, and that's no way to record a stereo image.  So although they sound fine, they are not suitable for anything where the stereo image is important.
Expected, and not a problem for me!

Quote from: Ozpeter
2 - the control layout is a bit odd, but probably people get used to it.
I'm coming from using a Korg MR-1, a piece of **** waste of money, so expensive when I purchased it. (Now I'll wait for someone to ask why I hate it so much).

Quote from: Ozpeter
Well, 3 - it doesn't have phantom powered xlr mic inputs, which may or may not be important to you.
Expected, not a problem for me!

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2015, 12:16:59 AM »
I'm not answering your real question: so apologies for that.
Your response is perfect!

Quote from: mitchellm
However, if you are NOT using an external preamp...
I eventually want to get a pair of mics from www.sonicstudios.com and it'd probably be worth investing in an external mic pre at some point rather than spending more money on a mobile recorder... which, then the nice preamp is stuck with the unit. Edit: If I had the money, maybe I would buy the D100.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 12:20:53 AM by Argitoth »

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2015, 12:38:11 PM »
For PCM M10 what windscreen is recommended?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 02:17:52 PM by Argitoth »

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2015, 02:46:49 PM »
Well, I purchased a red PCM M10, I'm very happy with my choice. I've been needed a new handheld recorder for years. Since no one ask why I hate MR1 so much... oh let's see.

WARNING: RANT -->
1. Runs on internal rechargeable battery, last I heard it was an $80 replacement. Battery life was like 2 hours on arrival, but now battery life is nill. It won't stay on without being plugged in.
2. Oh, I can fix the above problem! Just connect the external battery pack it ships with! NOPE!!!!!!! I heard the battery pack even causes damage to the MR1 internal battery. Not even the battery pack will keep it going now. Not even USB power.
3. Crashes... oh the MR1 just crashed due to low battery... WELL GUESS WHAT YOU CAN'T USE IT UNTIL IT DRAINS ITSELF DRY OF ENERGY!
4. High-samplerate DSD recording my  a**. The noise is so bad above... I forget where, but basically the the above-human-hearing frequencies are completely destroyed by internal noise.
5. Ringing... not sure where this came from, but I got high frequency sinewaves if my mic was placed too close to metal. Could be the mics, could be the Korg.
6. Oh what other hells have I experienced? Lost recordings from it running out of batteries, not sure if this is normal for mobile recorders, but I'd think some intelligent firmware programmer would have the sense to save the file if battery is low and shut down cleanly.
7. OH! The mic that it shipped with. What in God's good earth were those s****y mics I got after I paid $700!!!???
8. oh yeah PRICE! $700!?!?!?!?!?! FOR THIS!?
9. IIRC i had a few harddrive or file corruptions.
10. oh OH OH!!! AND THE MOST... MOST  >:(MOST >:( infuriating thing, if all the above wasn't bad enough... keep in mind I would still be able to resell my Korg MR1 if it weren't for this problem... the g** d**m  wheel (for menu nav and volume adjustment) slowly began to stop responding. Want to change the gain? NOPE! NOOOOOOOPE!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*breath*
*breath*

I think I'm cured. Thank you Angry Joe for giving me the power of healing through angry rants.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 03:31:06 PM by Argitoth »

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2015, 03:48:09 PM »
Here you go actually, from a Sound on Sound review at the time of release:
http://media.soundonsound.com/sos/mar07/images/korgnoisespectrum_l.jpg
hmm... try this:


(my artist rendition of korg noise, not scientific data  ;))

Offline yltfan

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2015, 11:10:18 PM »
The other thing that I don't like about the M10 is the gain wheel, which I have accidentally spun more than once. I also prefer using SD cards over mini-SD. I prefer the R05. It also costs less.
Mics: AT4051, AT4053, KM140, AKG C414, Beyerdynamic MEM86 guns, Nak cm300, AT853 4.7mod
Pre: V3, CA-9100
Recorders: Busman DR-680, iRivers, minidisc, jb3, and DAT

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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2015, 11:47:05 PM »
I was removing the micro SD card from my tablet yesterday.  Sucker flew out and down the stairs, but still works.  They put a good spring in the microSD slot on my tablet.  I was just glad the card landed where I could find it again. 

I transfer files on the M10 using the USB connector and try not to mess with the card.  I like the thumbwheel gain control much better than the rocker button on the Dr2d.  Never had my hands on the R05 to comment on it. 




Offline earmonger

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2015, 01:47:39 AM »
No hold on the gain wheel....we've gone around and around on this. I think that between the guard on it and the relatively stiff response, you really have to work to mess it up unless you are wearing ultra tight jeans with the M10 in your pocket and dancing like nobody's watching.


Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2015, 03:41:54 AM »
The other thing that I don't like about the M10 is the gain wheel, which I have accidentally spun more than once. I also prefer using SD cards over mini-SD. I prefer the R05. It also costs less.
Can you say whether r05 or the M10 has less noise since you've now owned both?

Spinning a wheel for gain, accident or not, it will be a breath of fresh air for me. I haven't done mobile recording for maybe over two years after my korg unit crapped out, it's been far too long.

Offline yltfan

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2015, 05:28:55 AM »
The other thing that I don't like about the M10 is the gain wheel, which I have accidentally spun more than once. I also prefer using SD cards over mini-SD. I prefer the R05. It also costs less.
Can you say whether r05 or the M10 has less noise since you've now owned both?

Spinning a wheel for gain, accident or not, it will be a breath of fresh air for me. I haven't done mobile recording for maybe over two years after my korg unit crapped out, it's been far too long.

Sorry, can't help you here. They both sound fine to me, but I only record louder stuff (while jumping around in my super tight jeans).
Mics: AT4051, AT4053, KM140, AKG C414, Beyerdynamic MEM86 guns, Nak cm300, AT853 4.7mod
Pre: V3, CA-9100
Recorders: Busman DR-680, iRivers, minidisc, jb3, and DAT

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Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2015, 10:06:26 PM »
I got a reply from Mr. Oade (www.oade.com):

Quote
The R05 has an EIN of -122dB, the PCM-M10 is -121db, both are bit bit noisy when used for soft sounds.

and

Quote
If you want low noise and HQ sound, the R26 or PCM-D50 are entry level. The Sony XLR to minijack adapters are pricey. The R26's built in mics sound better and offer both omnidirectional and cardioid mics. The PCM-D1 is amazing, if you can find one used.

Makes me want an R26. Anyone with an R26 want to chime in? I'm wondering if it would make me happier when I need to point the recorder at a sound to record it. I'd be getting 4 channels, with the possibility of 2 more with great convenience... oooo man that sounds awesome. It's like having 3 cameras all taking photos of the same thing from different angles, and you can mix/match to create the best picture from them. (As opposed to the inconvenience to having to setup multiple mics with stands or other method to get multichannel when you need to move around a lot.)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 10:16:19 PM by Argitoth »

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2015, 10:28:54 PM »
The standard link for recorder noise figures is this -

http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

When considering statements like that of Mr Oade, you have to be careful to consider the context.  Just about any reputable recorder can record and reproduce the full dynamic range of the real world, assuming that you are replaying the recording at an authentic level - in other words, so that whatever you hear is at the original volume.  That's important for audio fidelity, as frequency response of the human ear gets skewed if you play something too loud or too quietly (hence "loudness" controls on some amps).  I've demonstrated elsewhere (but I forget where...) that if you record something very loud - for instance, a lawnmower at the distance you normally operate it from - and then something very quiet (eg clock in a quiet room) without changing the recorder level setting, and you play it back in a normal listening environment, you will find that you'll probably want to turn down the mower.  And then the clock will be too quiet to hear.  Or if you have the clock at an authentic level - just audible - the mower will knock you off your chair.  So, an EIN of -120 coupled will be plenty in that context.

But if recording some kind of sound of nature - a sparrow 100 yards away say - and you want to hear that clearly on playback, so you turn it up to an artificially high level, you'll also be turning up the system noise too, and it will at some point start to show, even with a low noise recording system.

So, if you are replaying recordings at authentic levels, "real" levels, then ultra low noise is not likely to be requirement.  If adding gain on replay, then you'll need a lower noise system.

My only passing comment on the R26 is that it's a little long in the tooth compared with the Zoom H6 or H5 or Tascam DR-44.  Whether those more recent devices are in fact any better I'll leave others to advise.

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2015, 10:40:46 PM »
Ozpeter, yes, I get what you are saying. Unfortunately, I will sometimes have to record quiet sounds and play them back at not-authentic levels. But I'm also good with noise reduction software. So the inspiration for getting an R26 would be more about the mics and the multichannel rather than the low noise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA4TDtYem2U

looks like a piece of heaven.

Edit: Doing a forum search for R26 to see what peeps got to say. Concerned that if I went with R26 I wouldn't like the sound of the recordings from internal mic, been listening to examples, not impressed. If the M10 doesn't sound nice to me, it doesn't matter as much since it's only $200 and don't mind working on it in post, or simply using an external mic. Whenever I hear Sony PCM D100 or H6 examples, I like what I hear.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 12:15:18 AM by Argitoth »

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2015, 01:43:02 AM »
Alright, I've made my decision... for the 2nd time.

as for the internal mics:
-Every time I hear a Zoom product internal mic recording, I like what I hear. Crisp and wide.... but noisy noisier.
-Most of the time M10 recordings sound like they lack detail (as if the sound is farther away or less direct). Also sounds less wide.
-D100 recordings sound great to me, wide, low noise, if only I had 1 grand...   :-\
-R26 recordings sound bad to me.
-R05 sounds more hissy/noisy every time, but a little better than M10 in terms of sound quality.

THEREFORE!

I choose M10 and may not be using the built in mics.

If only I could try these recorders first hand... but I can't, so I have to go with what I hear.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 07:01:15 PM by Argitoth »

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2015, 07:43:35 AM »
Quote
-Every time I hear a Zoom product internal mic recording, I like what I hear. Crisp and wide.... but noisy.

I'd take issue with that - I think it's time to repost my "out with the dogs" ambient recording from a few years back made on a Zoom H2N - but I'm heading for bed, so watch this space in about 12 hours time.  Might make you rethink the M10... :)

Offline robeti

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2015, 09:17:35 AM »
r-05 anytime.

Better control buttons than Sony.

Great sturdy recorder.
mics schoeps mk22/mk4/mk41 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc/o) | ca-11 c/o | ca-14 c
power ca-ubb | ca-9200 | nbob actives > baby nbox | schoeps cmbi (pair)
recorder roland r-05 
video panasonic zs100 | panasonic hdc-sd600 | sony hx9v | sony hx50v | samsung s23 ultra
playback fiio m17 > final d8000

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2015, 09:32:42 AM »
Most important thing to me is low noise/value. M10 seems to be the best low noise for value. The only thing that would make me go with another unit is if it had equally low or lower noise and internal mics that I like the sound of. Otherwise I'd much rather use M10 with external mic than a slightly noisier recorder and internal mics. The only way I'd be convinced that M10 is not the right recorder is if someone could post comparisons of M10 with another recorder with the same sound source, otherwise I wouldn't be able to... compare, heh.

I get my M10 on the 6th or the 7th and then I will start using it at which point I probably won't be able to return it. So anyone who feels they must convince me not to get the M10, you have 3-5 days to post recordings!
(feel free to post recordings even if there's no comparison, I'll take a listen)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 09:40:41 AM by Argitoth »

Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2015, 09:48:02 AM »


Whichever is better for recording quiet sounds, that's the one I want.

I know Zoom H6 is a totally different beast from the other two, but the reason I'm considering buying it is because I need a multichannel setup in the future. It's only a matter of whether I need to buy another device or not after choosing a handheld.

Yes - you may suggest an option not on the list. :)

Since you mentioned potential multi-channel needs - keep in mind the jury is still out on Tascams new DR-70D. 4 channels. Also has internal mics.

Offline dmonkey

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2015, 11:16:12 AM »
...I only record louder stuff (while jumping around in my super tight jeans).

I knew it!   ;D
MK4's, KM140's or MC930's >  Tinybox or Aerco MP-2 > R-09, M-10, R-44 (Oade CM) or MixPre-6

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2015, 12:47:13 PM »
This topic has served its purpose, so I'm going to go a little off topic, I just had a thought (keep in mind I'm also a noob when it comes to recording gear).

If a microphone has a noise profile that is lower in the higher frequencies AND it also has a frequency response with a boost in the high frequencies... wouldn't that mean the noise profile (when subtraced/measured against its frequency response) would potentially have way less noise in the high frequency? So microphone response contributes to the effective noise level.

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2015, 01:54:08 PM »
I eventually want to get a pair of mics from www.sonicstudios.com and it'd probably be worth investing in an external mic pre at some point rather than spending more money on a mobile recorder... which, then the nice preamp is stuck with the unit. Edit: If I had the money, maybe I would buy the D100.

I love Sonic Studios mics. I have an older model which is apparently medium sensitivity. It's never distorted on me, but I haven't used it for stack taping or at extremely loud shows. The M10 powers it perfectly without a preamp or battery box. You would only need an external pre for very quiet stuff (or maybe if you want to record acoustic with their extra low sensitivity mic). If you do need a pre, you must use a Sonic studio pre (or at least a Sonic Studios battery box into another pre with plug in power off).
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2015, 03:17:20 PM »
good, good! fmaderjr, got any links to some recordings?

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2015, 04:07:47 PM »
No. I've only used them to record friends' bands.
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2015, 05:37:20 PM »
https://soundcloud.com/ozpeter/zoom-h2n-out-with-the-dogs

Posted here simply to contend that Zoom recorders are no disaster on the noise front using built in mics.  Also, the stereo image of this is way better than you'd get from the M10's mics.

This is a follow up to my similar recording posted several years ago, when I used the original H2.

This one was made with the H2N gain knob at 5 using the MS mics only set to "Raw" and decoded afterwards using equal amounts of mid and side. I used a "dead kitten" from a Rode SVM mic although the wind was actually pretty light.  No EQ or compression, just normalised (gain raised only 1dB though). A 44.1/16 wave recording converted in the DAW to mp3. Edited for length.

I recommend headphones for playback to get the best effect. At times it's quite a "binaural" sound coming from all round you.

The location is a suburban park somewhere in the suburbs of Melbourne (Australia), at about 4.45pm on a mild spring day.

First minute or so - the tapping sound is someone bouncing a ball on the grass. You hear some Australian birds, a small plane in the distance, and the dogs running around. Someone else's dog way off. The blackbird you can hear from about 1'40" was quite distant, just audible at the time.

At 2'30" there's a bit of a dog fight! I turned away... so the barking might actually sound behind you on headphones.

At 3'20", I'm off the grass onto a gravel path. Here you can set your playback level so that it sounds about as loud as it would do if you were on such a path yourself, for authentic reproduction.

At about 5'20", a train whistle from quite some way off.

At about 5'30" we get back in the diesel van, first the dogs in the back then me in the front.  Sliding doors at the back.  The H2N just sits on the front passenger seat leaning on the backrest.

6'16" engine on, fasten the seatbelt! Slow reversing then out of the car park. Now you hear some lower frequencies.

7'00", on the road. The journey is heavily edited for length (I don't drive short distances!). Some interesting thumps and bumps!

At about 8 minutes, the tick of the indicators as we turn then arrive at the house, and we move slowly into the garage.

Engine off, seatbelt off, open the driver's door, close the electric garage door. Open the back sliding door, let out the dogs.

My opinion is that the recording shows the H2N can turn in good results for ambient / nature recordings, if playback levels are not artificially boosted. I don't hear any noise at normal playback levels - does anyone?  My ears are pretty shot...

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2015, 07:04:54 PM »
good recording. I did say Zoom recorders are noisy. I really meant to say they are noisier than M10. Yes, I don't hear any noise in the normal listening levels of your recording.
Edit: I will add that I still like how Zoom recorder internal mics sound.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 07:08:37 PM by Argitoth »

Offline DSatz

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2015, 07:05:44 PM »
I got an M10 a year or two ago, and reported this in the M10-specific discussion thread: When I tested it using the line inputs, the noise floor of its 24-bit mode seemed to be only about 1 dB below that of its 16-bit mode. Thus I couldn't determine any potentially audible advantage in using the 24-bit setting.

I haven't had time to repeat this test or to try variations on it, e.g. with different settings of the record level control. Has anyone else here measured its dynamic range in the 16- vs. the 24-bit setting?
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2015, 07:21:36 PM »
The advantage of 24-bit 96k or any other higher fidelity formats is when I do heavy digital signal processing, which I often do. If you're recording sound for use as sound effects/foley stuff, you'll want to record at 24-bit or else you will may hit the 16-bit noise floor when using noise reduction software... (a problem when you need make a really quiet sound really loud, or do heavy dynamic compression).

Edit: Not that you couldn't record at 16-bit and noise reduce past the 16-bit floor and export 24-bit later to get a 24-bit noise floor (yes, you can remove dithering from digital audio :))
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 07:41:43 PM by Argitoth »

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2015, 08:40:08 PM »
24 bits of digital gives you way more than an analog preamp can provide in terms of available dynamic range.  So you'll encounter the limitations of the analog headroom of the device well before the limitations of the digital headroom.  How the analog vs digital headroom is arranged is up to the manufacturer usually, in other words, is it set so that the digital and analog stages clip at the same input level, or so that the digital clipping can't happen until well after the analog clipping has been encountered?

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2015, 09:05:55 PM »
oh here's another reason to record 24-bit: if you happen to be recording quiet sounds and your gain is really low (maybe you're recording a huge dynamic range of sounds, or you forgot to set your gain properly, or overcompensating for loud peaks, or maybe the noise profile of your gear is better with low gain), you risk recording too close to the 16-bit noise floor. Had you recorded at 24-bit, that would be much less of a problem.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 09:07:44 PM by Argitoth »

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2015, 12:27:28 PM »
Late to this but I've had both M-10 and R-05.  My R-05 crapped out after what I'd consider not to be very extensive nor long term use (and certainly no rough treatment).  The M-10 seems a lot better built (and I suspect more durable).  I like the wheel on the M-10 much more than the buttons on the R-05 for level adjustments.  I do like the full size SD cards better but also very much like the internal memory in the M-10. 

Internal mics skews this evaluation.  I don't use them and would not really recommend them (especially for very quiet sources).  The internal mics seem to me to be somewhat an afterthought on most recorders.  If you are going to use internals you need to pick the recorder based on their mics' performance relative to your intended use rather than picking the recorder based on recorder specs.  Get the one you think will have the mics that work best for your use (omni vs. card pattern, noise of the internal mics, and the sound signature relative to your taste). 

The mics are always the weakest link in the chain (so for example when I record really quiet stuff with my lower-end mics plugged in I will hear the self-noise from the mics long before I hear any noise from the recorder - and I didn't notice any real change in that limitation between the M-10 and R-05).  If things are quiet enough even with my Schoeps > R-44 I'll hear the ambient noise in the room (air ducts/fans/background noise) if things are quiet enough, so some level of noise is part of the background anyway, though with the high-end setup I hear the environmental noise over the self-noise of the mics, so the threshold or limitation changes, but the limitation is still around the mics and what they pick up rather than in the recording section of the recorder. 

Any recorder of a certain quality should be fine with mics plugged in (all the suggestions here good I think, though I'm not sure about the Zoom in practice).  If you're not plugging in mics the choice may be very different than the choice if internal mics are a non-factor.   
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2015, 12:48:03 PM »
I was going to start a new thread for this, but might as well ask here first.

I am interested in using an X/Y mic setup for mobile recording. Right now I have a microphonemadness sennheiser capsul omni / binaural stereo mic which I was planning on using with the PCM-M10 even for sounds I want to capture close and dry. Listening to PCMD100 and Zoom H5/H6/H4n demos I discovered that I like the sound of 90 and 120 degree X/Y pair.

So I was thinking of buying this along with the PCM M10: http://microphonemadness.com/products/mmflexgoosca.htm
$200 for M10 + $150 for cardioid gooseneck mics = $350.

Is there a better way to spend $350-$450? And as bombdiggity wisely explained, there's something to be said about getting the right tool for the job.
Edit: Maybe the R26 is what I need as it would give me the XLR for proper mic and mini jack for the omnis I have, plus it would come with an xy pair although I didn't like the "quality" of the built in mics when I heard demos, but I could use the omnis to add width or use just the built in mics when I don't need width.

Edit: OK SOOOOO.... I called B&H and they said I could buy use and return the R26 if I really don't like it. So that's what I'll do... wonder if they'll let me buy/try both M10 and R26 and return one.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 01:25:46 PM by Argitoth »

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2015, 03:02:38 PM »
^ Well this is nearly a different topic. 

I'd suggest spending some time researching threads on mic patterns ;D

An X/Y pattern is typically used with highly directional mics. 

An omni mic probably won't benefit from that pattern, nor is an omni mic likely to give you a "close and dry" sound.  Omnis capture a wide field.  To my taste they tend to be too reverberant "big roomy" sounding, almost regardless of room placement, but especially at any distance.  Cards will usually be "drier", though IMO properly used their stereo separation can give you a unique sense of a directional soundstage, where an omni gives a more even blended (or smeared?) perspective.  Omnis are often used widely spaced to introduce more stereo perspective (two omnis as close together as the end of a recorder are IMO essentially going to converge to a mono perspective). 

X/Y setups are (usually? / always?) using cardioid or tighter patterns.  The general theory behind an X/Y pattern (in my interpretation) is partly an attempt to reduce cross-channel phasing that can occur with cards.  It should provide a somewhat drier, cleaner sound than some other potential patterns. 

I don't know a lot of people that use MM.  They may be a starter mic but that s/n ratio is pretty low AND they do recommend something else for loud sources (so may not be that good for quiet or loud?). 

You haven't really said what sort of music (and/or other things) you want this setup for? 

There are lots of choices.  In general letting your ears be your guide is a good approach though one needs to temper that with some comparison of the samples to the types of material, venues, and placement you are most likely to find yourself in.  An omni onstage sounds very different than an omni back by the board. 

Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline yltfan

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2015, 04:01:46 PM »
If you are going for small, cheap, cards, I like the Audio Technica 853. Also good and popular around here are the Church Audio CA-14. Omni versions of both are available. And you could easily set up something like the gooseneck mount you linked, or spread them out more...
Mics: AT4051, AT4053, KM140, AKG C414, Beyerdynamic MEM86 guns, Nak cm300, AT853 4.7mod
Pre: V3, CA-9100
Recorders: Busman DR-680, iRivers, minidisc, jb3, and DAT

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Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2015, 04:40:26 PM »
So the closeness of the omni mics on the R26 would give more of a mono sound, which is demonstrated by the videos. R26 omni mics therefore seem pointless. Also, when combining the R26 omni and XY mics, from what I hear of the demos, sounds like the phase interaction is all wrong. The only thing that sounds "right" to me is the XY by itself.

This confirms my suspicion, "omni mics" don't sound omnidirectional all the time:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=171145.0
More words of wisdom about omni mics of PCM M10:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/486377-sony-pcm-m10-vs-pcm-d50.html#post1580883
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.msg1723226#msg1723226

Just incase it was lost in all the text now in this thread: I need a low noise setup. I will be recording mostly quiet sounds at close distance for dryness. One potentially good setup for me may be my external omni mics I already own plus R26 XY mics.

Apparently the Audio Technica 853 is discontinued and the U853A is the replacement, which is $313 * 2 (for stereo) and would be $626 + $200 for M10 = $826, so that's out of range for me right now.
So Yltfan, $139.99 for CA-14 + $200 Sony M10 = $340 is within the $350-$450 range. My target level of noise is the PCM-M10 internal mics. How would the CA-14 with M10 compare to that? If CA-14 is low noise, that sounds like an ideal way to spend the money.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 06:22:12 PM by Argitoth »

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2015, 04:43:08 PM »
there were a pair of NOS AT853s in the Yard Sale here on TS for $135 shipped that just sold over the weekend.  It's a good idea to keep an eye on what is listed there unless you want to end up forking out full retail price for gear elsewhere. 

Offline yltfan

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2015, 05:27:47 PM »
Used AT 853's seem to pop up pretty regularly, as you see in the previous comment. Maybe message Darktrain, ask if he has any in the pipeline, or post an ISO. I like them, but lots of folks around here are fans of the CA-14's.
Mics: AT4051, AT4053, KM140, AKG C414, Beyerdynamic MEM86 guns, Nak cm300, AT853 4.7mod
Pre: V3, CA-9100
Recorders: Busman DR-680, iRivers, minidisc, jb3, and DAT

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Offline robeti

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2015, 07:39:34 PM »
Used AT 853's seem to pop up pretty regularly, as you see in the previous comment. Maybe message Darktrain, ask if he has any in the pipeline, or post an ISO. I like them, but lots of folks around here are fans of the CA-14's.

I've bought the AT-853 that was in the yardsale.

Up untill now I have always ran Nakamichi (cm-100 / cm-300) or Church Audio (ca-11 / ca-14) and really liked the sound of both brands.

If the AT mics arrive in time, I will try to stealth 2 different rigs (CA-14 and AT-853) by the end of this month so I can compare them. Will keep you guys posted!
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 09:45:37 PM by robeti »
mics schoeps mk22/mk4/mk41 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc/o) | ca-11 c/o | ca-14 c
power ca-ubb | ca-9200 | nbob actives > baby nbox | schoeps cmbi (pair)
recorder roland r-05 
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Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2015, 07:43:46 PM »
Those ATs had the 4k mod - so they might not have been the best set for the OP, since he indicated "quiet sounds" as part of his needs.

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2015, 08:15:17 PM »
Hmm.  He wants close and dry, low noise and he wants it for $350-$400. 

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2015, 08:27:38 PM »
yes 2manyrocks, as good as it will get at that price. when i have a bigger chunk of change ill upgrade. What I need is what one might call "standard issue" or "beginner's kit" for low noise/close/dry recordings. it doesnt have to be great, I just need to spend the money wisely, that's all. For example, getting an H4n instead of PCM M10 or R05 would be an bad choice for my needs. One tool will be better than the other for a given purpose at any given price point... within reason. So this thread is here to help me figure out what tool that would be.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 08:30:24 PM by Argitoth »

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2015, 08:54:46 PM »
double post whatever.

So I might actually go with the M10 and CA-14 combo as Church Audio got back to me basically confirming that would be a good choice, and I'm trusting this to be true based on others' suggestions on this thread.

This thread has served its purpose, I learned some very important things. Thank you for all the replies!

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2015, 01:39:19 AM »
words of wisdom: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=163014.msg2044544#msg2044544

save money so you can buy what you really want instead of buying cheaper stuff and continually upgrading

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2015, 06:12:13 AM »
Quote
save money so you can buy what you really want instead of buying cheaper stuff and continually upgrading

Now where's the fun in that?  :)

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2015, 12:08:53 PM »
Well, the problem with waiting to buy something more expensive is that, if you're a beginner, you don't know what you want; you have nothing to compare to previous experience/products. You have no foundation for discernment. That's also what I lack.

Offline Scooter123

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2015, 01:47:14 AM »
My experience with the Zoom H6 is that it is heavy, clunky, noisy, there is no line in, and the analog type knobs are really a pain.  I actually hate the recorder.  That said, it is the only stealthable recorder that can pull 6 channels.

My first, go-to choice would be an M-10

I own both
Regards,
Scooter123

mk41 > N Box  > Sony M-10
mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2015, 02:20:00 PM »
My final decision is to go with PCM M10 purchased from B&H for $200 + Church Audio CA-14 and Preamp combo for $250 total of $450.

If I have a minute to spare, I will post a number of tests to see how it all performs, and the noise level of each component and some sound tests.

Speak now if you think this is a bad idea, I haven't yet committed the money! Otherwise... happy taping... is that the phrase used here? whatev, good enough.

Offline 404 Not Found

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2015, 02:25:18 PM »
My experience with the Zoom H6 is that it is heavy, clunky, noisy, there is no line in, and the analog type knobs are really a pain.  I actually hate the recorder.  That said, it is the only stealthable recorder that can pull 6 channels.

My first, go-to choice would be an M-10

I own both

^^  I agree with this as well in re. to the Zoom H6. I also have one and I have not been very happy with it for similar reasons.  I run this recorder usually through my SD552 TA3 Direct Outputs.  It is not a stealth recorder IMHO if it is to be used with 4 - 6 channel inputs.   
Recorders: Alesis HD24XR | Marantz PMD661 (Oade Warm Mod) | Sound Devices 552 |Zoom F8 | Zoom H6
Pre-Amp/Mic Mixers/PS: Sound Devices 552 | Sound Devices MixPre-D | Shure FP33 | Audix APS911's | Audio Technica AT8501
Mics: Telefunken M60 FET MP/TK62's  | Miktek C5 MP's | Neumann  KM100/AK40's AK43's AK45's | Audix M1255B's | Audix M1280B's | Sennheiser K3-U/ME-20's 40's & 80's | Shure VP88
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Offline robeti

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2015, 05:10:41 PM »
My final decision is to go with PCM M10 purchased from B&H for $200 + Church Audio CA-14 and Preamp combo for $250 total of $450.

Good choice. You can't go wrong on this package.
Have fun taping!
mics schoeps mk22/mk4/mk41 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc/o) | ca-11 c/o | ca-14 c
power ca-ubb | ca-9200 | nbob actives > baby nbox | schoeps cmbi (pair)
recorder roland r-05 
video panasonic zs100 | panasonic hdc-sd600 | sony hx9v | sony hx50v | samsung s23 ultra
playback fiio m17 > final d8000

Offline Benderman11

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2015, 11:21:18 PM »
I also own a H6 and am a big fan.  That said, a stealth recorder it is not; I only openly record with External mics.  The H6 is small enough that I usually just add a clamp > ball joint mount to my stand and attach the recorder there.  This allows me to place the knobs into a comfortable position to operate; also better than bending over to make adjustments.

Got to use the additional XLR input attachment for first time NYE and was very pleased.  I guess it depends on your particular use what you want.
mics: Joly Modded Oktava MK-012MSP, Telefunken M60 stereo set, Neumann ak40, ak43, or ak50 > Nick mod lc3 > Naiant PFA or km100
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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #59 on: January 08, 2015, 04:03:59 PM »
Hmmm.

Jon's objection parallels a correction I was temped to make upon reading that same Jan 3rd post, but didn't.  His explanation is more concisely-worded and better grounded with actual numbers than mine would have been, but the general message is the same.
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Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2015, 08:26:28 PM »
Quote
Some devices are even worse; I have a "24 bit" USB interface that only manages dynamic range of 84dB, because of its analog noise floor.  There is absolutely zero benefit to recording in 24 bit from that device.

In terms of noise, agreed, but isn't there at least a theoretical advantage that using 24 bits helps avoid digital clipping (assuming that you'd not already clipped the analog stage anyway...)?

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2015, 12:08:10 AM »
hey tapers, just got my M10. this thread shall not die just yet! Once I get my stuff from Church Audio (two weeks from now?) I'll want to upload A/B comparisons. With external preamp, without, with external mics, without, compare my microphonemadness mics with church audio mics, etc. I want to study my equipment till I'm blue in the face if I can gather enough energy. This will help me decide my next purchase, which I will make some time this year, hopefully no more than 6 months from now.

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2015, 05:26:02 AM »
hey tapers, just got my M10. this thread shall not die just yet! Once I get my stuff from Church Audio (two weeks from now?) I'll want to upload A/B comparisons. With external preamp, without, with external mics, without, compare my microphonemadness mics with church audio mics, etc. I want to study my equipment till I'm blue in the face if I can gather enough energy. This will help me decide my next purchase, which I will make some time this year, hopefully no more than 6 months from now.

I think you'll be very happy with the CA>M10 rig 8) I ran that as my second rig at second stages at festies and it usually produced great results. They ALWAYS sounded better than you'd think for a $500 setup, that's for sure ;) I even let a friend patch his Schoeps source with my ca14 source once, and we could NOT hear where the patch was once it was edited. Sounds crazy, but its true! You may not find the need to spend a ton of money to upgrade if you're happy with what you're pulling with the ca14s ;) I ran CA14o>9100>m10 and mk41>Littlebox>m10 for the Pimps Of Joytime back in February 2013 and the clear winner of those two sources was the ca14 omnis ;) And it was in a small/crowded bar/venue that was pretty chatty. It was definitely not the most ideal setting to run omnis, but alas, it was the clear winner :)
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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2015, 12:13:47 PM »
Quote
Some devices are even worse; I have a "24 bit" USB interface that only manages dynamic range of 84dB, because of its analog noise floor.  There is absolutely zero benefit to recording in 24 bit from that device.

In terms of noise, agreed, but isn't there at least a theoretical advantage that using 24 bits helps avoid digital clipping (assuming that you'd not already clipped the analog stage anyway...)?

24bit makes a larger available range on the digital storage side which will always be considerably more than absolutely necessary to fit the entire range of analog input, but you still need to make sure that smaller range is placed comfortably within that larger range.  Regardless of bit-depth, in either case you need to make sure the input level is adjusted appropriately so the signal fits within in the range between clipping and noise, determined by the entire signal chain.  Too high a input level and the signal will clip in 24bit the same as it does with 16 bit.  Adjusted properly, excess range is split between the headroom up top and footroom(?) at the bottom.  24bit provides additional excess-room over 16bit.  The equivalent of say 14bits worth of actual signal range in a real-world signal will fit within either one.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2015, 12:30:00 PM »
I even let a friend patch his Schoeps source with my ca14 source once, and we could NOT hear where the patch was once it was edited.

{Posting this "Bean-style"  :P : }

That's the scary part of it once you drop the big dollars  :facepalm: 

It all depends on what you're recording and how though.   ;D

Sometimes the heat is just a waste of money.   :'(  Other times there is a clear difference.   ;D

In the OP's case I think higher end gear may be warranted (due to the self noise and quiet source concerns).  OTOH I think he'll be quite happy with his starting point.   ;)

As to the "buy the best don't upgrade" thing that depends too.  As OP notes getting that baseline knowledge is helpful (and many may be satisfied with the right inexpensive choices for their uses).  Also if you buy the right lower end items at a good price there may not be much lost selling them in the YS later. 
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Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
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SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
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Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2015, 06:25:15 PM »
All true

At least the OP has a reference point of known gear going forward. 

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2015, 10:37:19 PM »
RECORDING: swinging for fun - swinging a usb cable around, with M10 built in mics and iZotope noise reduction, this is just for fun, don't take this recording seriously for any purposes. I then used this same cable to retrieve the recording, for poetic justice.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 10:41:28 PM by Argitoth »

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2015, 09:09:45 AM »
argitoth wrote:

> If you're recording sound for use as sound effects/foley stuff, you'll want to record at 24-bit or else you will may hit the 16-bit noise floor when using noise reduction software

If the noise floor of a recorder is the same in 24-bit mode as it is in 16-bit mode, then this objection goes out the window. The content of the 8 low-order bits is essentially random, so your DSP will work harder to process this random data and you will use more bits of storage all to no useful effect whatsoever. Despite the 24-bit internal representation of the signal, its noise is still at the 16-bit level, and will still build up in subsequent processing just as it would with a 16-bit input signal.

When any real-world signal goes through any real-world channel, there is some noise in the signal AND the channel. If either noise level is distinctly greater than the other one, it will predominate; if the two noise levels (and their frequency and time-domain qualities) are similar, they'll combine into something that's a little greater than either one was originally. But in no case does a quiet signal ever make a noisy channel quieter, nor can a quiet channel make a noisy signal quieter. If God created a perfect, noiseless A/D, a digital storage or transmission medium with infinite bits and a perfect, noiseless D/A on the other side, an 80 dB signal that passes through that channel would still have only 80 dB of dynamic range when it came out. The holy miracle of that signal path would consist in the fact that no noise was _added_ to the signal, but it still wouldn't come out any quieter than it was going in.

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 09:19:15 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2015, 11:00:09 AM »
argitoth wrote:

> If you're recording sound for use as sound effects/foley stuff, you'll want to record at 24-bit or else you will may hit the 16-bit noise floor when using noise reduction software

If the noise floor of a recorder is the same in 24-bit mode as it is in 16-bit mode, then this objection goes out the window.
yes, the [analog] noise floor is the same at 16 or 24 bit, what is variable is the pre amp gain. you turn down the gain, turn down the noise, and of course the signal (so you potentially get a really low signal, but at 24 bit, that low signal could be perfectly adequate)

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/sbas288j/sbas288j.pdf
23 bits of noise free resolution for this particular a/d converter.

therefore I don't see how 24 bit does not offer advantages when you fail to set your gain correctly.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 11:12:04 AM by Argitoth »

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #69 on: January 10, 2015, 11:57:36 AM »
so who was it that decided to slap on "records at 24 bit" on a mobile recorder that can't achieve such dynamic range (rhetorical question)? So the question is: Does the M10 24 bit mode give any more dynamic range?

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2015, 03:22:28 PM »
That extra bit or two can be enough to be useful when setting input levels in the unpredictable real world, so recording 24bit files on those machines can still be worthwhile.   Just realize that even though the file format is storing 24bit data, you aren't actually recording or storing anywhere close to the maximum dynamic range a 24bit file is capable of.  The extra bit or two is good enough for me to fully justify using 24bit for some of my live recordings.  For consistency and workflow, I simply record 24bit files for all my live recordings.  I would not feel any need to use 24bit for something like LP or analog cassette transfers though, since the levels from those sources are completely predictable and can be fit within a 16bit range comfortably without the need for as much headroom or noise-floor clearance excess.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2015, 10:21:09 PM »
Quote
That extra bit or two can be enough to be useful when setting input levels in the unpredictable real world, so recording 24bit files on those machines can still be worthwhile.
I think what is being said in preceding posts is that if you do that, while there's not much of a problem on the digital side, you are still going to have the traditional problem of an inferior signal to noise ratio produced by under-driving the analog stage and later amplifying it digitally.  I don't think there's an easy answer to the old problem of whether you record at the highest level to get the best signal to noise ratio from the whole system, but at risk of not getting it right and ending up with some clipping (either digital or analog or both).

In the early days of DAT machines with a readout of headroom, I used to love seeing whether I could get to the end of a classical concert not having touched the input level, and with the headroom showing something like -0.5dB. 

If working with familiar equipment, I have a theory that levels are pretty consistent at the microphone (at least with acoustic music).  If recording full orchestra, you're going to have the mics set back somewhat (assuming it's a stereo pair).  If recording an acoustic guitar, you'll be much closer.  The level at the mic will tend to be pretty similar, so your level setting at the recorder will also be much the same.  So at least in that scenario, you can aim a bit higher than -12dB below full scale.

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2015, 08:57:10 AM »
Argitoth, OK, taking your scenario where you under-record by a significant amount such as 6 or 10 dB--what I'm saying should be fairly obvious, which is that more bits will help ONLY if those bits aren't filled with noise. Extra bits are of use only when the actual noise floor of the recorder (via the inputs and level settings that you're actually using) is lower than that of the signal. Otherwise the content of those bits will be random and meaningless--no better than having a dithered 16-bit recording.

I did test the M10's dither, by the way. It is definitely adequate; there is no "digital deafness" and no observable quantization distortion as a tone is reduced in level approaching (and then going beneath) the noise floor. The problem was just that when the recorder was set to 24 bits, its noise floor decreased by only a smidgen--about 1 dB as I recall--below its dithered 16-bit level.

BTW Jon S., I keep meaning to note that even the simplest form of dither doesn't need to consume the whole dynamic range of the lowest significant bit. Depending on statistical considerations it can be adequate at 1/3 to 1/2 of that 6 dB figure in terms of effective noise power. So the dynamic range of a properly dithered 16-bit recorder should be a few dB greater than 90.

--best regards

P.S.: I still think that people commonly overestimate--perhaps by as much as 20 or 30 dB--the dynamic range that they actually need for live recording in public venues. As long as you can capture the highest peaks of a performance without overload, and play it back without hearing any noise that the recorder itself has added, then you have enough bits! Having one or two bits more, for level-setting comfort so that you don't have to risk overload, is a plus as well.

But what I'm saying is, for nearly all live recording of musical performances that only brings you to about 14 bits total, even including a "comfort" bit or so. I'm fanatical about quiet recordings, and for years in the 1970s I toted 15 ips open-reel recorders and Dolby A-type studio noise reduction systems to record live concerts. You sure as hell couldn't hear any tape hiss in those recordings even when they were played back good and LOUD. But even a dithered 14-bit PCM recorder has a distinctly lower noise floor. For many years the BBC used 12-bit studio-to-transmitter links (although I believe some pre-emphasis was used, which is almost like having maybe one additional bit), and no one heard noise in their famous live FM concert broadcasts.
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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #73 on: January 12, 2015, 01:36:07 AM »
These bits>

Test your device and learn what its dynamic range actually is, and how much analog gain you need with your microphones and recorders so that the total noise floor does not degrade the mics' dynamic range.  That gain figure is the maximum gain you ever need use (you will use less on a loud source).  Once you know that, leaving enough headroom becomes a simple task.

As long as you can capture the highest peaks of a performance without overload, and play it back without hearing any noise that the recorder itself has added, then you have enough bits!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #74 on: February 17, 2015, 09:27:21 PM »
got my church audio mic and preamp. will post some tests soon.

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #75 on: February 25, 2015, 03:22:45 PM »
Am I taperssectioning right?


mics on a stick

put it at 90 degree xy pattern because I'll be recording misc sounds for a game, and want a little bit of stereo, but mono compatible.
I might buy another stick and build a 120 degree version.

superglue + serrrated edged kitchen knife + $1 wooden dowel from Ace Hardware
i could reinforce it with sugru as well.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 03:29:15 PM by Argitoth »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #76 on: February 25, 2015, 04:17:10 PM »
Mmmm, mics on a stick, looks like you already took a bite.  Might pull the marshmallows out of the fire before they turn black 'though.

Cool that you point the arrow at what you want to record.

Even for that application, you might go ahead and try using a near-spaced configuration, like 7" apart at 110 degrees or whatever instead of X/Y for a lot of things. Especially for anything meant to sound big, or consists of several different sources, or any environmental location or background type sounds.  It will sound better and more convincing in stereo, and it's easy enough to check to see what it sounds like in mono.  It's only "not mono-compatible" if it sounds bad that way, and in my experience it will usually sound as good or better than the X/Y stuff in mono.  The other time it might be an issue if you are mixing lots of sounds together by having them play them simultaneously. 

Mono-compatibility is an over-rated concern in my opinion (even for stuff intended for mono playback) and probably only really matters for music anyway, not sound samples like you're making so much.

For small single sounds localized in one place, X/Y is fine, but mono is probably fine too, saves file space and conserves resources in your game.  Either of those will mix perfectly well with the bigger more-stereo sounds recorded using a near-spaced configuration.

Taperssection on..
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #77 on: February 25, 2015, 05:47:18 PM »
you saying multiple 90 degree xy recordings (of small objects/single-location) are not-as-good when played together?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 05:52:36 PM by Argitoth »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #78 on: February 25, 2015, 09:06:04 PM »
No, those things work well combined that way.  A coincident setup like X/Y can be good for that.  But mono would probably be fine for that stuff too. 

The elements which will benefit the most from a near spaced mic configuration instead of a coincident one are things like location ambiances, background sounds, sonic wash stuff, big explosions, musical accompaniment, things with movement to them, stuff like that.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #79 on: February 26, 2015, 11:08:28 AM »
Ok, just want to get all the information clearly!

I also have a pair of omni mics that will work well for ambiance. I'll have to make a few more "sticks" so I can try 120 degree and near-coincident.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #80 on: February 26, 2015, 03:34:52 PM »
With omnis for stereo, you'll either want to use a baffle between the two if you are using them at typical coincident spacings, or space them apart a good bit more- probably something like 2 feet up to few feet more than that.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Argitoth

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Re: Which mobile recorder? M10, H6, or R05?
« Reply #81 on: March 18, 2015, 02:04:23 PM »
Found this at True Value, a flexable wire, gotta attach this to a new stick. Throwing away the old one! Cat broke it anyway.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 02:06:52 PM by Argitoth »

 

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