Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Audio Snake Oil  (Read 11219 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rocksuitcase

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3826
  • Gender: Male
    • RockSuitcase: stage photography
Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2015, 01:49:09 PM »
I'm still pissed I let Nutter talk me into 300 dollar Audio magic cables in 2000. Just bullshit for what we do. Mics and pre and a recorder with a nice ad stage.
That's funny. I used to have extensive conversations with him (one of my best friends who used to be a taper lived close to him in Denver), met him at Red Rocks 1996 when we each discovered our mutual love and respect for Meyer Sound Labs equipment and John Meyer (Helen too!). He tried to sell me these cables a few times, each time we would talk specifics about cables and cabling. He knew I used to co-own a small manufacturing company in Ft. Worth which dealt with high quality cabling used in oil & gas exploration with hydrophone systems. All in all, I am aware that many in this community has problems with his services, but I always thought him to have serious technical understanding of the audio world. Sure, he was making money off of it, but certainly didn't become a millionaire or anything on audio products. I found him/them to be a good source for recording gear. (now I sound like a professional suck up!)  :o
As if this thread hasn't gone in more directions, now I add this!  8)
More OT- that product voltronic linked to the thread is quite hilarious (and written in German):
http://www.creaktiv-hifi.com/index.php/en/twisterstop-optimizer/hybrid-lp-optimizer-granite.html
I second the use of Canare starquad cable (although it requires better than average soldering techniques)
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG461/CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline hi and lo

  • Trade Count: (25)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2199
Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2015, 02:04:27 PM »
I highly recommend reading Douglas Self's Science and Subjectivism in Audio. It's published and freely available on his website, HERE, although I strongly recommend picking up a copy of his book audio power amplifier design if you're interested in this stuff. This is essentially the entire first chapter.

The most important section, in my option, is "The Subjectivists Position"

Quote

2: THE SUBJECTIVIST POSITION.
A short definition of the Subjectivist position on power amplifiers might read as follows:

  • Objective measurements of an amplifier's performance are unimportant compared with the subjective impressions received in informal listening tests. Should the two contradict the objective results may be dismissed out of hand.
  • Degradation effects exist in amplifiers that are unknown to engineering science, and are not revealed by the usual measurements.
  • Considerable latitude may be used in suggesting hypothetical mechanisms of audio impairment, such as mysterious capacitor shortcomings and subtle cable defects, without reference to the plausibility of the concept, or gathering any evidence to support it.

I believe this is a reasonable statement of the situation. Meanwhile the overwhelming majority of the public buy conventional hifi systems, ignoring the expensive and esoteric high-end sector where the debate is fiercest.
It may appear unique that a sizable part of a technical industry has set off in a direction that is quite counter to the facts; it might be felt that such a loss of direction in a scientific subject would be unprecedented. This is not so.

Parallel events that suggest themselves include the destruction of the study of genetics under Lysenko in the USSR. [1] Another possibility is the study of parapsychology, now in deep trouble because after some 100 years of investigation it has not uncovered the ghost of a repeatable phenomenon. [2] This sounds all too familiar. It could be argued that parapsychology is a poor analogy because most people would accept that there was nothing there to study in the first place, whereas nobody would assert that objective measurements and subjective sound quality have no correlation at all; one need only pick up the telephone to remind oneself what a 4kHz bandwidth and 10% or so THD sounds like.

A startlingly close parallel in the history of science is the almost-forgotten affair of Blondlot and the N- rays. [3] In 1903, Rene Blondlot, a respected French physicist, claimed to have discovered a new form of radiation he called "N- rays". This was shortly after the discovery of X-rays by Roentgen, so rays were in the air, as it were, and so was a desire to keep up with the Germans. The N-radiation was apparently mysteriously refracted by aluminium prisms; but the crucial factor was that its presence could only be shown by subjective assessment of the brightness of an electric arc allegedly affected by N-rays. No objective measurement appeared to be possible. To Blondlot, and at least fourteen of his professional colleagues, the subtle changes in brightness were real, and the French Academy published more than a hundred papers on the subject.

Unfortunately N-rays were completely imaginary, a classic product of the "experimenter-expectancy" effect. This was demonstrated by American scientist Robert Wood, who quietly pocketed the aluminium prism during a demonstration, without affecting Bondlot's recital of the results. This was widely reported by the famous reporter/explorer William Seabrook, and the N-ray industry collapsed very quickly. It was a major embarrassment at the time, but is now almost forgotten. For more on N-rays, see the new N-ray page

This demonstrates with brutal clarity that it is quite possible for large numbers of sincere people to deceive themselves when trying to perform subjective assessments of phenomena.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 02:06:53 PM by hi and lo »
Friends don't let friends buy tube mics...

Mics: Schoeps MK21 / MK22 / MK4 / MK4V / MK41V / MK41 / MK5; Neumann SKM140; AKG 480/CK61; MBHO 603/KA200N / DPA 4061 / Dynamic Audio Binaurals
Pres & A/Ds: E.A.A. PSP-2 (2x) / Aeta PSP-3 / Sonosax SX-M2 (2x) / Grace V3 / Naiant Tinybox v2.x (Reutelhuber) / Nbox+ / AD2k+ / SBM-1 (2x)
Recorders: 744T / R-44 / PCM-M10 (2x)

Quote from: it-goes-to-eleven

It isn't fear. It isn't subjective. You can measure it on a scope.

Offline MakersMarc

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1581
  • Gender: Male
  • Dust of long dead stars is what we are.
Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2015, 01:14:49 PM »
I'm still pissed I let Nutter talk me into 300 dollar Audio magic cables in 2000. Just bullshit for what we do. Mics and pre and a recorder with a nice ad stage.
That's funny. I used to have extensive conversations with him (one of my best friends who used to be a taper lived close to him in Denver), met him at Red Rocks 1996 when we each discovered our mutual love and respect for Meyer Sound Labs equipment and John Meyer (Helen too!). He tried to sell me these cables a few times, each time we would talk specifics about cables and cabling. He knew I used to co-own a small manufacturing company in Ft. Worth which dealt with high quality cabling used in oil & gas exploration with hydrophone systems. All in all, I am aware that many in this community has problems with his services, but I always thought him to have serious technical understanding of the audio world. Sure, he was making money off of it, but certainly didn't become a millionaire or anything on audio products. I found him/them to be a good source for recording gear. (now I sound like a professional suck up!)  :o
As if this thread hasn't gone in more directions, now I add this!  8)
More OT- that product voltronic linked to the thread is quite hilarious (and written in German):
http://www.creaktiv-hifi.com/index.php/en/twisterstop-optimizer/hybrid-lp-optimizer-granite.html
I second the use of Canare starquad cable (although it requires better than average soldering techniques)

No disrespect to Marc, differences aside...very knowledgeable guy and I got a lot from our conversations.
Mk4v/41v>Nbob kcy x2>nbox platinum/Naiant PFA/Naiant IPA>Oade warm mod Marantz 661 x2/Sony pcm m10x3

Offline 108 Ohms

  • Eat A Peach
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8988
  • Gender: Male
  • Waiting on the next cladogenetic event...
    • Oceana North America
Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2015, 02:12:03 PM »
Answering the the USB question about clocking on a USB bus...

NRZ rules apply to USB 1.0/2.0 which is half-duplex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-return-to-zero

8b/10b Rules added for USB 3.0, which is full-duplex

What he said on buffer, error-correct, and re-assemble, but the bigger issues arise when buffers overrun and the data stream doesn't resend...

In a nutshell, use quality, not exotic, cable and don't exceed length for the earliest USB version of the endpoints.
Exotic cables for digital, probably most analog applications, too, is like painting your cat with cheetah spots.
It ain't gonna be bigger, tougher, or faster than the cat is was born to be.
"Peace is for everyone"
        - Norah Jones
"We tape to taste life twice, in the moment and in retrospect"
                      (with apologies to Anais Nin)

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (26)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2309
  • Gender: Male
Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2015, 11:12:27 PM »
DPA 4061 | Line Audio CM3 | Naiant X-Q
Naiant PFAs | Shure FP24
Tascam DR-70D JWMod | Sony PCM-M10

Tascam DR-70D FAQ
Team Line Audio
Quote
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.    ///    If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.
- Gustav Mahler

Offline rocksuitcase

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3826
  • Gender: Male
    • RockSuitcase: stage photography
Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2015, 01:50:56 PM »
Akiko Audio "Tuning Sticks"

From the same site: WA-Quantum Chips
Silliest marketing speak I've read in a while! :facepalm:
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG461/CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline goodcooker

  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
  • Gender: Male
  • goes to 11
Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2015, 06:52:38 PM »
Well their RCA cables are only 800 euro a pair. You can be sure they will give you an " open and spacious sound while getting you emotionally involved in the presentation "
modded Naks > RAD MS2 > DR60d

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

"Are you the Zman?" - fan at Panic 10-08-10 Kansas City

"I don't know who left this perfectly good inflatable wook doll here, but if I'm blowing her up, I'm keeping her." -  hoppedup

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (26)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2309
  • Gender: Male
Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2015, 07:38:35 PM »
Well their RCA cables are only 800 euro a pair. You can be sure they will give you an " open and spacious sound while getting you emotionally involved in the presentation "

The "open and spacious sound" of course being the wind whistling through the empty cavity between the ears of the person who bought them.
DPA 4061 | Line Audio CM3 | Naiant X-Q
Naiant PFAs | Shure FP24
Tascam DR-70D JWMod | Sony PCM-M10

Tascam DR-70D FAQ
Team Line Audio
Quote
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.    ///    If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.
- Gustav Mahler

Offline noahbickart

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (25)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • *
  • Posts: 1486
  • Gender: Male
  • Nobody's finished, we ain't even begun
Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #53 on: December 24, 2015, 12:32:34 AM »
Much of this pseudoscience exists in our own end of the field.

16/44.1 is more than enough for playback (while recording at 24bit for headroom makes sense, of course).

And yet, folks here swear they can hear an improvement at 24/96 on playback.

Isn't isn't any more logical or supported by experiments using the scientific method.
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v, mk4v, mk22, mk3 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10
Home Playback: Mytek Stereo96> Adcom SLC 505> Marantz Ma500 (x2)> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-400
Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701

Offline capnhook

  • All your llamas are belong to us....
  • Trade Count: (18)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3320
  • All your llamas are belong to us....
Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2015, 03:34:21 PM »
Much of this pseudoscience exists in our own end of the field.

16/44.1 is more than enough for playback (while recording at 24bit for headroom makes sense, of course).

And yet, folks here swear they can hear an improvement at 24/96 on playback.

Isn't isn't any more logical or supported by experiments using the scientific method.

Welcome to the reality-based community, noahbickart.
 
I'm unaware of any ABX  comps that prove that any difference can be herd...

I'm looking for proof.
Proud member of the reality-based community

BSCS-L->JB-mod NAK CM-300 (CP-1,-3)->LSD2->CA CAFS-Omni->Sony ECM-907**Apogee MiniMe Rev. C->CA Ugly II->Oade line-mod SBM1**Edirol OCM R-44->Tascam DR-22WL->Sony TCD-D8


"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

Offline Jonmac

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 105
  • Gender: Male
Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #55 on: January 03, 2016, 12:54:04 PM »
There's no point buying all these expensive interconnect cables if you don't have decent speaker cables.

http://www.russandrews.com/select-ks6068-speaker-cable-with-wbt0610ag-bananas-33739993131/

Zoom H1, Zoom H2, Zoom H6, Tascam DR-40, Tascam Dr-05, Homebrew mic's, C2 Cardioids

Offline Jonmac

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 105
  • Gender: Male
Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #56 on: January 03, 2016, 12:58:48 PM »

And of course, you need decent fuses in your plugs.

http://www.russandrews.com/ra-5a-superfuse-pack-of-5/

Zoom H1, Zoom H2, Zoom H6, Tascam DR-40, Tascam Dr-05, Homebrew mic's, C2 Cardioids

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (26)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2309
  • Gender: Male
Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #57 on: January 03, 2016, 01:46:29 PM »

And of course, you need decent fuses in your plugs.

http://www.russandrews.com/ra-5a-superfuse-pack-of-5/
Over $100 per fuse!!!!!!! >:(  But hey, you get a free Caig wipe. :P
DPA 4061 | Line Audio CM3 | Naiant X-Q
Naiant PFAs | Shure FP24
Tascam DR-70D JWMod | Sony PCM-M10

Tascam DR-70D FAQ
Team Line Audio
Quote
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.    ///    If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.
- Gustav Mahler

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (26)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2309
  • Gender: Male
DPA 4061 | Line Audio CM3 | Naiant X-Q
Naiant PFAs | Shure FP24
Tascam DR-70D JWMod | Sony PCM-M10

Tascam DR-70D FAQ
Team Line Audio
Quote
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.    ///    If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.
- Gustav Mahler

Offline lsd2525

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1478
  • Gender: Male
  • Eschew obfuscation
Mics: ADK A51s; AT4041; Superlux S502; CK91 active w/homebrew BB; AT853; Naiant X-X; Nak 300's
Recorders: M10; DR-60D; DR-70D

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.292 seconds with 37 queries.
© 2002-2017 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF
Website Design by Foxtrot Media, Inc., a Baltimore Website Company