Topic: Choosing a mid-level recorder

[captainentropy]

I currently use a Sony PCM-M10 when taping shows. Somehow I feel like I'm being limited by its lack of XLR ports and phantom power. I recently upgraded my mics to a set of Studio Projects C4s and got a phantom power supply for them. I also just ordered a pair of Line Audio CM3s based on what I've read here and Gearslutz. I previously was using a set of Audio Technica U853 (SP-CMC-4U) or Church Audio CA-14s plus a battery box. The only shows that really came out great were one show of Dead Can Dance and Zoe Keating. Neither artist gets as loud as a typical rock concert does. The others suffered from the high sound pressure or lack of definition. I had the ATs modded last year with the 4.7k mod and I recorded Godspeed You! Black Emperor with them and it didn't really sound that great either. The last show I recorded (Animal Collective, 2016 tour, Fox Theater) came out really good using the C4 mics with 48V. *Much* cleaner sound, better bass, better detail, etc. I've recorded them there before and it didn't turn out great. The difference this time was likely the mics (I tend to record in the same spot too) but I'm thinking to ditch the 48V power supply I got and go with a recorder with built in phantom power. The problem is there's quite a few choices I find in the $300-400 range, which is where I want to stay so I can put more $$ into better mics later. Although, perhaps with the CM3s, if the word is true (and my ears aren't deceiving me), I may not need to.

I'm looking at the Fostex FR2LE, Marantz PMD661/661 MKII, Roland R26, and maybe the Tascam DR100-mkII. I can basically find all of these new or used for ~$300-400. The problem is finding a side-by-side of all of these (like who's gonna do that right?). I don't know all the little details that make one recorder better than another so I need to lean on the experts here. I was gravitating towards the PMD661 MKII but I read a lot of good things about the Fostex. The R26 looks great too. But I don't know what quality of pre-amps they have. Or am I overthinking it and I should get a good preamp instead? I know the Tinybox is no longer made, and I don't want to wait around for one to appear in the yard sale. So I don't know what would be a good option then for preamp.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

I'd just get a preamp.

If you can get your hands on a Tinybox (or Littlebox) you'd have a nice small footprint that sounds great. Keep an eye on the YS for one of those. They pop up somewhat often. If you see one jump on it though...they don't last long. Also since they were all custom builds you'll want to be sure it will work with your mics.

I'm currently only running my Tinybox > M10 rig. It works great.

If for some reason you'd like an all in one box, I'd go with something with 4 or more channels to give you the option to run more than 2 mics or do a matrix with the SBD.                                                                         

[captainentropy]

Yeah, the little/tinyboxes look sweet but I've searched the yardsale and they each appear about once per month. CA 9200 preamp even less frequently. Can't wait around for that.

Any other pre-amp suggestions? It doesn't have to be super tiny. I have a bag ("generic" Gravis bag that could, for example, barely fit my 13" ThinkPad) that I take into shows. But would a hefty size preamp be preferable to a similar sized recorder like the Fostex or Marantz? I've read on this forum to go with an all-in-one because their preamps nowadays are so good. But then I'm back to my original question

[jbell]

Oade M248 would work well with the M10 and sounds awesome!  These don't come up to often either.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176924.0

[acidjack]

If you only care about 2 channel, just get a preamp.

If you want new technology and 4 channels, get the R-26. Sounds good, 4 channels (6 with internal mics), long battery life. I really like it, and it's nice and easy to carry around.

[F.O.Bean]

Or a Tascam 70d They can be had for under $300 too! And you can easily do 4 channels, and it has great stock preamps IMO as well Just get an approved card on Tascam's list! I fluff the 70d a lot, but its because this same question is asked pretty often, and it seems to fit most everyone's needs and budget, and Ive successfully ran one for over 1.5 years, and its been rock solid with cards that it likes

I wouldn't recommend the 70d unless its worked great for me thus far and I truly thought it was a reliable deck I just think it sounds great, has an easy menu to navigate, is extremely cheap for what it does, and is easily powered with USB batteries! Oh, and does 4 channels@24/96 And its TINY on top of that! Certainly the smallest 4 channel deck on the market, with 4 XLR inputs anyway All around a great deck, and honestly, my fav deck since I sold my 722 awhile back!!!

Here's the link to Tascam's "approved" sd card list! The 64gb/32gb Sandisk Extreme Pro cards seem to be the most reliable so far!
http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/dr-70d_tested_media_list_20151006.pdf

But nowadays there's a LOT of handheld/small decks out there, and I'm sure you'll find one to fit your needs, and in your budget Best of luck!

[Fried Chicken Boy]

I'll echo what acidjack stated a few posts up: get a preamp if you want to stick with 2-channel, get a different recorder if you want 4 or more channels to work with.

As far as preamps go, I would also suggest the Sound Devices MixPre/Shure FP-24 (Shure-branded, SD-made version of the MixPre).  Built like a tank and has pristine sound, as SD devices generally do.  The original MixPre/FP-24 is no longer being made but used ones show up here in the YS and on eBay pretty regularly; you can likely pick one up in your budget with a little patience.  Keep in mind that the newer version, MixPre-D, has a digital component and is considerably more expensive, on the order of ~$700 used to $929 new.

aj's suggestion of the Roland R-26 is a good one: solid, great sounding recorder with 4 channels and 2 XLR inputs.  In that vein, I would also recommend the Tascam DR-60D which is one of Tascam's better offerings, IMHO. 

While there are quite a few adoptees of the Tascam DR-70D and it can be a great deck, it is also finicky about the SD cards it will use and there is also a wrinkle of some USB cables not working properly with it.  No sense giving yourself headaches right out of the gate (no offense to Bean and other folks who are having a great experience with that recorder).

[captainentropy]

In theory I like the idea of the 4+ channel recorders. I do have more than one set of mics so I could easily use some omnis and some cards at the same time. Or if I ever have the chance a soundboard plus external mics.

I was searching through the live music archive for different recorders to see how they are used and, for the 4+ channel models, the R26 isn't used much at all. I found that odd. But what do I know. Is there a "trendy" factor to recorders? I see the Tascam DR-60D and the DR-70D are represented much more often. It seems like a lot, maybe a plurality, of these recordings are a SBD + external mic recording. I appreciate F.O.Bean's (and Fried Chicken's) post. That's a pretty sound endorsement considering you had a Sound Devices 722 

I'm not sure if that's a fair way to evaluate gear, but IMO it seems reasonable, since, it's likely these tapers know their gear (especially since many of the mics are like M300 and higher in cost and quality - these aren't casual tapers). Maybe I'll spend some time and to a deeper analysis using LMA data.

I do on occasion film stuff with my Canon T3i. I've used the CA-14s in those cases, but having a film-minded recorder could be a cool addition to my gear.

The 60D and 70D are both very affordable and look very capable, so I'm naturally skeptical. I know that's probably an unreasonable POV since, for example the Line Audio CM3s are ridiculously cheap for the sound they pick up (based on reviews and my own hearing), but you get my point, I hope.

The 70D is still cheaper than the R26. Is it "better" though? Same for it compared to a 661 MKII or Fostex FR2LE. Looking through the LMA it looks like the Sony PCM-M10 and the Sound Devices 744T have huge numbers (>4,000 each). That's a huge range in price! Of course the M10 users have a preamp to go with it.

I watched a video comparing the Tascam DR-680 +/- a SD MixPre and to my ears it was no contest. Should I expect the same for the 70D? It seems like there aren't many choices when it comes to portable 2-channel preamps. Very few "boutique" ones that I can find too, especially in the sub-$500 range.

I found a Shure FP-24 for $490. I also read good things about the Audioroot Femto ($550 new). Can the 70D compete with them? It is much cheaper though...

Thanks for all the comments so far. There so much to learn!

[voltronic]

You can see from my gear list that I use a few of the things mentioned here.  I would not pay more than $400 for a Mix Pre / FP-24.  $490 is too high IMO, and there have been several of these priced very high on eBay that don't sell, then are relisted at a similar high price.  Post an "ISO" in the Yard Sale and you may get some hits.

You can get a DR-70D for $200 right now, and you're not going to beat that value.  Yes, it only works with certain cards, but as long as you use a card on Tascam's recommended media list it's a non-issue.  The USB cable thing came from me, where I was having problems with Monoprice USB cables disconnecting with it.  Every other brand of cheap cable I've used since then works fine.

Is the MixPre / FP24 going to have higher gain and better absolute quality?  Sure, but for loud amplified music you're never going to notice it.

[acidjack]

What's "trendy" here is buying stuff that (a) is cheap and (b) other people have. While sometimes the groupthink is useful, sometimes, as in the case of the Trashcan 70D, it's not. At that price point, the Zoom H6 is much better. Not as many people use it, either. Even in Trashcan's own line, the less popular 60D is more reliable.

In theory I like the idea of the 4+ channel recorders. I do have more than one set of mics so I could easily use some omnis and some cards at the same time. Or if I ever have the chance a soundboard plus external mics.

I was searching through the live music archive for different recorders to see how they are used and, for the 4+ channel models, the R26 isn't used much at all. I found that odd. But what do I know. Is there a "trendy" factor to recorders? I see the Tascam DR-60D and the DR-70D are represented much more often. It seems like a lot, maybe a plurality, of these recordings are a SBD + external mic recording. I appreciate F.O.Bean's (and Fried Chicken's) post. That's a pretty sound endorsement considering you had a Sound Devices 722 

I'm not sure if that's a fair way to evaluate gear, but IMO it seems reasonable, since, it's likely these tapers know their gear (especially since many of the mics are like M300 and higher in cost and quality - these aren't casual tapers). Maybe I'll spend some time and to a deeper analysis using LMA data.

I do on occasion film stuff with my Canon T3i. I've used the CA-14s in those cases, but having a film-minded recorder could be a cool addition to my gear.

The 60D and 70D are both very affordable and look very capable, so I'm naturally skeptical. I know that's probably an unreasonable POV since, for example the Line Audio CM3s are ridiculously cheap for the sound they pick up (based on reviews and my own hearing), but you get my point, I hope.

The 70D is still cheaper than the R26. Is it "better" though? Same for it compared to a 661 MKII or Fostex FR2LE. Looking through the LMA it looks like the Sony PCM-M10 and the Sound Devices 744T have huge numbers (>4,000 each). That's a huge range in price! Of course the M10 users have a preamp to go with it.

I watched a video comparing the Tascam DR-680 +/- a SD MixPre and to my ears it was no contest. Should I expect the same for the 70D? It seems like there aren't many choices when it comes to portable 2-channel preamps. Very few "boutique" ones that I can find too, especially in the sub-$500 range.

I found a Shure FP-24 for $490. I also read good things about the Audioroot Femto ($550 new). Can the 70D compete with them? It is much cheaper though...

Thanks for all the comments so far. There so much to learn!

[hoppedup]

The Tascam DR-60D has been rock solid for me.  I have no qualms using it without backup. There is no need for an external pre with this unit, IMO. Run times with phantom on two channels exceeded 15 hours for me with a 10,000mah USB battery pack.


I also own a DR-70D. It has never let me down. But due to the issues others have had, it now runs as a backup.

[2manyrocks]

I own the sony pcm m10, the 60d mkI and the 70d.  I haven't had any trouble with any of them.   The 60d never seemed to catch on at TS I suspect because the 70d came along with 4 xlr inputs and a more appealing case design compared to the block of butter shape of the 60d.  the 60d only has two XLR inputs and one 1/8 stereo input that is ganged.

All was apparently going well in the 70d thread here until some members starting having glitches.  Tascam then released a list of approved cards, and I'm not aware of anyone having a glitch using one of the approved cards since then or it it happened, it has been an isolated case. 

The 60d still has a few advantages over the 70d for video because the 60d has manual gain control over the output to your camera.  The 70d control is set in the menu, I think---I never have used the 70d for video.  The 1/8 stereo input is ganged on the 60d and that is a useful feature completely missing from the 70d. 

When I priced approved cards for the 70d, they seemed more expensive than more generic SDXC cards I use in my cameras. 

With the mkii at $199 and the 70d on sale for $199, you might wait and see if they don't run a sale on the 60dmkii if it interests you more for video recording. 

I haven't used a 60dmkii to be able to say how the preamps compare to the 70d.  I would think either one is certainly useable. 

I am not famliar enough with zoom or roland to be able to offer any realistic thoughts on them. 

[voltronic]

To the OP: Going off acidjack's comment, another TS quality you'll notice are very different user experiences leading to significant differences of opinion.  And that's a good thing, I'd say.  For instance, I've used the H6 and I strongly prefer the performance of the 70D preamps, but I'm only doing quieter classical recording so my experience may be a bit different than most others here.  So obviously, don't take everything any of us say as gospel.  The great thing about TS is the huge volume of experiences people are willing to share, so you'll learn a lot here.

[captainentropy]

Thanks for all the replies.

Most of the shows I go to are loud amplified shows. Some can have long quiet-ish moments though (e.g. Dead Can Dance, Zoe Keating, GY!BE) so it seems like I'd need to consider noise floor? So that should steer me away from the H6?

I suppose I should just go for the 70D with that crazy-low price before it disappears...

But I think I definitely need a good preamp.

[voltronic]

Actually for what you are doing, any modern portable recorder is going to have a noise floor far below the ambient noise in the room, even if the band stops playing and the audience all holds their breath together.  You won't notice noise floor differences unless you're doing classical or otherwise acoustic recording.  Any of the recorders being discussed here will work fine.

[captainentropy]

Thanks for the reply voltronic. That's good to know.

So, why is it then that having a preamp sounds better? For example, in this video, to me, it clearly sounds better to go preamp (MixPre in this case) into the recorder (DR680 in this case) line level vs mic level. It's a top quality recorder, right? Is it just that the preamps in a recorder are never going to be as good as a (good) dedicated preamp? Sounds like I answered my own question maybe hahaha. https://vimeo.com/16681934

I'm just wondering that if I had say a Sound Devices MixPre (Shure FP-24) going into a PCM-M10 would it be objectively better than using a high quality 70D or PMD661 or R26, etc.?

Or, is it that, in the above video I'm hearing an unamplified guitar and not drums and synths and guitars or whatever all amplified to 120 dB? In other words in a loud concert would the details by "hidden" by the shear loudness? I'm not an audio engineer so I don't really know. I just know that so far, the recordings I've made have suuucked in comparison to mine.

Here's an example. This guy, Michael Zelner, makes awesome recordings. I was at this show and also recorded it and mine was awful in comparison. Serviceable, but not good. Yes, he uses an SD 744T and MG M300s. So there's that

https://archive.org/details/acollective2012-09-22.flac16

We both taped this show too and he used an AT825 mic instead of the M300s. I was using Studio Projects C4s. His still was better (though not as dramatically so as before).

https://archive.org/details/acollective2016-03-07.flac16

Ditto for this one https://archive.org/details/gybe2013-09-09.m300.flac16

I'm guessing the preamps in the 744T are really that good? MixPre level maybe? I'm just trying to get better recordings without having $5,000 worth of gear, sigh.

[voltronic]

I think for the recorders in the price bracket we're talking about, the built-in preamps are never going to equal something like an external preamp like a MixPre - Sound Devices makes gear for pros.  The electronics behind the input of recorders like this are very different than what's used in the built-in preamps in a recorder in the sub-$500 range.  The MixPre has an excellent set of Lundahl input transformers for example.  But like I said, I don't know that you'll hear the difference unless you're recordings something like in that video where you can focus on small details like the subtle tonality of an instrument.

The SD 7-series preamps are actually a step in quality above the MixPre.  Again, Sound Devices is professional gear.

My own experience with the MixPre/FP24>M10 has been that it is superior to the 70D built-in preamps, until I got my 70D modified and now the sound quality of the modded 70D is equal to the M10>FP24, although noisier at very high gain levels (which I never find myself using).

[2manyrocks]

Quality of sound source>room acoustic>mic quality followed by preamp/recorder.  I suspect some recordings get blamed on the recorder when a better quality mic would be the better bang for your buck.  A pair of dpa 4061s powered by a battery box run into an m10 sound very nice in the right space, for example.  But omni pattern mics might not be the best choice in some noisy venues.

But since you want to use xlr phantomed powered mics, you either need a preamp or a recorder with phantom power. 

Voltronic certainly has made good recordings with his 70d and his cm3s.  I think voltronic pretty much records just with his 70d instead of using his mixpre.  For $200, I think you would find it difficult to beat the 70d.  Just be sure to use an approved card and use the SD association format utility.

[voltronic]

^ Agree with all of that, and especially the first point about the hierarchy of what makes a good recording.  I'd also put quality of performance in there first.

DPA 4060/4061 are amazing quality and smaller than you can believe, but not only are they omni, they are almost perfectly omni at all frequencies, unlike most other omni mics that become more directional in the high frequencies.  I used them in January for a choir festival in a typical "taper" location mid-audience because of logistical restrictions.  In the past I've used my CM3s here with good results.  The audience was quiet through the choirs singing, but I will absolutely never use the 4061s that far away ever again, unless it's a session recording with no audience.  Every chair squeaking and paper rustling around and behind them was rendered in perfect detail.  So in a rock audience where people are talking, etc. near your setup, you are likely to hear all that business in your recording more than you would care to.

And yes, I only ever go mics > 70D, or mics > FP24> M10.  The second rig right now is a backup, or used on the rare occasions where I'm running 4 channels on the 70D but a co-worker wants a separate recording with his Schoeps mics, and my second rig is much quieter than his H6.

[captainentropy]

I greatly appreciate all of your questions for this nominal noob. I think I'm being sold on the 70D for now. I'll keep looking for a MixPre/FP24 or something equally higher-end.

I'm 100% with you that the venue is the #1 determining factor (acoustics+sound source). So far I've only taped at (if you're familiar with the Bay Area) the Fox Theater Oakland, Warfield, The Chapel (SF), Greek Theater (Berkeley), Great American Music Hall, Uptown Theater (Napa), SF Opera House, Brick and Mortar, and a few others I'm not thinking of. All but the Brick and Mortar have excellent sound systems and acoustics. I always show up early and scout the best site to tape (at The Chapel, the owner helped me even). Unfortunately, at the Fox the best spot is loge seating near the rail but I've never been able to get tickets there. And Bay Area crowds are the worst so it's often contaminated with the people near me yammering on through the whole show or inappropriate screaming.

Thanks again!!

[willndmb]

Remove the fr2le from the discussion. It sounds great and works perfect but in today's world it can't compeat cost vs features to the d60.
The d60 sounds good alone but not as good as littlebox > m10
As others have mentioned it kills the d70 on features for video recording too but if you don't do video then who cares.
I personally like the block shape for my current bag configuration plus use the video features so it's awesome.
The d70 is good if you need four xlr and use an approved card

[captainentropy]

Thanks for the comment on the Fostex. I pretty much was dismissing that one mainly because it was a bit old compared to the others. Maybe that's a silly reason though. I ordered the 70D from Adorama. Same price as the 60D with a coupon code.

I hadn't read the details about why the 60D was better for video than the 70D, but after watching some video reviews I understand them now. Probably not a big deal to me. The 70D is thinner, which is I think one thing I liked so I can better fit it in my bag. Price was the same.

I'll be recording some show this month and next. If they turn out well I'll comment on it.

Thanks!

[2manyrocks]

At the current promotional prices, the 70d is probably the better deal.  There was a point when the 60dmkii was $129 if I am remembering correctly.  They put the prices up and down so much that in a few weeks, pricing could be different than today. 

[jbell]

My 70d has performed flawlessly and I haven't used an approved card!  Good luck with your gear acquisition

[MakersMarc]

A vote for an Oade mod 661. New 550 right now form Doug, I'd guess 350-400 here used. All you need, plus digi in and out.

[captainentropy]

I was thinking about a modded 661 mkii but I was reading somewhere (here or on gearslutz) about a comparison between a stock recorder (forgive me, I forgot which one but it might have been the 661) and the same one with the Oade Concert mod and they sounded indistinguishable. At least to me they did, though others said the same thing. So I felt comfortable with stock being fine.

I'm admittedly very impressionable at this point. Only having the PCM-M10 and no preamp to speak of, and just three (soon to be four) sets of mics I don't have the hands-on experience with other setups. Hence, getting the 70D

I'm still waiting for a Fp-24/MixPre to appear at a reasonable price here or on eBay. The last one went for $430. That seems like the low end for what they sell for on eBay.

[voltronic]

I'm still waiting for a Fp-24/MixPre to appear at a reasonable price here or on eBay. The last one went for $430. That seems like the low end for what they sell for on eBay.

If you're patient, you may find them lower.  I got my FP-24 for much less than maybe 2 years ago, and at the time $400 was top dollar for them on eBay.  The higher prices on that unit could be a bit of supply and demand, but some of the ones you see with asking prices of over $400 are re-lists that didn't sell before.

You could also post an "ISO" in the Yard Sale here.  You have a better chance of finding a good deal here, as well as a well cared-for piece of equipment.

[2manyrocks]

You're already shopping for a mixpre but haven't even received your 70d yet?   Several of the guys recording shows have commented in the 70d thread/saga/mini series that they no longer feel the need for an external preamp with the 70d. 

[captainentropy]

You're already shopping for a mixpre but haven't even received your 70d yet?   Several of the guys recording shows have commented in the 70d thread/saga/mini series that they no longer feel the need for an external preamp with the 70d.

I know! I love gear. It's a weak spot for me. When I had a garage I had car upgrade parts everywhere. I have so much computer hardware, it's a bit much. Camera gear too. Now audio gear

Once I find a "perfect" all around setup I'll let go of some of the other stuff hahaha. At least that's what I tell my wife...

I'll have read through the 70D tome and read about these experiences. My 70D arrives today and I'll be taping some shows soon. Though not having a good preamp limits my ability to compare them

[2manyrocks]

More stuff than time to use it. 

Some pretty good recordings have been made with the 70d.  I hope you like it.  Using an approved card and the sdhc format utility to completely reformat the card will make things go more smoothly.

[F.O.Bean]

I posted 13 shows in this thread comparing my mk41>VMS02IB>70d and mk4>PFA>70d setups so that you can hear the two different preamps and compare the 70d pres to the VMS pres I realize that the caps/KCY's are different, but this should give you a good idea what the stock 70d preamps sound like! I agree that the recorder gets blamed a lot for pulling bad recordings, when it was really mic placement/venue sound/mic choice/etc! You put good in, you get good out, as for most things I think the 70d pres are more than adequate for most mics and types of recording! If you need tons of gain, like Voltronic has pointed out, then you probably need a HQ external pre, but for most types of music, the pres should be more than enough! As always, YMMV.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=177215.msg2184452#msg2184452

[fmaderjr]

The Zoom H6 is a great recorder and nobody hated Zoom more than I did after I was an early adopter of the H$. It set the stage for the Zoom F8 which everybody seems to love.
On sale here with a bonus of the XLR input adapter for channels 5&6 for $300.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=177137.0
4 phantom powered XLR inputs, another without phantom or you can go line in with a battery box/ preamp or use a plug in power mic for the 5th & 6th channels.
I think the X/Y cardioid on board mic attachment sounds quite good too if you want to use them for channels 5 & 6.
Tremendous value for $300

[F.O.Bean]

The Zoom H6 is a great recorder and nobody hated Zoom more than I did after I was an early adopter of the H$. It set the stage for the Zoom F8 which everybody seems to love.
On sale here with a bonus of the XLR input adapter for channels 5&6 for $300.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=177137.0
4 phantom powered XLR inputs, another without phantom or you can go line in with a battery box/ preamp or use a plug in power mic for the 5th & 6th channels.
I think the X/Y cardioid on board mic attachment sounds quite good too if you want to use them for channels 5 & 6.
Tremendous value for $300

Agreed great deal! Unfortunately, it sold already

[AB52]

The HS-P82 - if you can find an open box - is still a great deal.  And its sound quality is superb.  It is warm and inviting.  I had a Zaxcom that costs way more and a Sound devices unit.  It sound better than either imho.