Topic: Which Schoeps would be good for me?

[firusan]

Hi All,

I am considering getting a pair of Schoeps caps, but am uncertain which ones would be best for my purposes. I’ve read over older threads on the topic and listened to lots of recordings, but it still doesn’t really clarify things for me. I am wondering if I set out my considerations, perhaps I could get some advice here to help me make an informed decision. Here are the variables:

Set-up: Hat mounted stealth mode, so NBob actives and NBox plus caps. Even where I don’t have to stealth, I use the same set-up. I am aiming for simplicity.

Decks: I recently got a Sound Devices 722, and like it so far, so when possible, that will be my main deck. For stealthier situations, I am using a Korg MR2. I also note that a lot of Schoeps owners are using the Sony PCM10, which I also have. I haven’t really liked my results with it, but it seems the Schoeps mics react well with that deck, so that is also a possibility.

Venues: Small clubs, galleries and performance spaces, so no arenas, stadiums or outdoor shows. The largest place I have been to in the past 10 years is a medium size theater.

Music: I’m recording both rock and jazz, so music with different sonic characteristics and volume levels. Ideally, something that would work for both kinds of music would be great, but if I had to prioritize, mics that would do a good job on small club rock would be my priority. My existing gear can do a very good to exceptional recording at jazz shows.

Cardioid vs Omni: I’ve never used Cardioids, but don’t really have a preference. For the shows I am recording, either it is loud enough that audience noise behind me isn’t an issue, or the audience is quiet enough there is no noise. I am assuming with hat-mounted cards that if I keep my head towards the music and don’t move much I should be fine.

Flat vs Boosted: I tend to prefer a brighter recording, but one of the problems I am trying to solve is too much high end in rock recordings. I note that some of the Schoeps mics have a slight boost towards the high end. From my sample listening, I don’t think the boosted caps would be too much, but I am uncertain. It’s not hard to add some brightness in post, but it’s quite hard to take it out if the raw recording has too much treble.

Listening: I am playing my recordings on a medium high end stereo with Bryston amp, preamp, DAC and digital player and Totem Forest towers, so my goal is to get a nice clear, detailed recording with good round bass that will sound good on my home system.

That’s all I can think of. If I have missed something, please ask. If anyone can offer advice, recommendations, comments or ideas that would help me make a good decision, I would really appreciate it. Thanks.

>>I forgot. I was talking with someone who uses a variety of Schoeps mics and he recommended the MK4V caps. Any comments about these ones? 

[larrysellers]

I would suggest starting with the mk4 or mk4v. Schoeps caps hold their value extremely well and if you want a different pair, selling them for close to what you paid won't be a problem. If you think you need both card and omni caps, get the mk5.

[stevetoney]

I agree with ^ this response.  I personally prefer the native MK4 capsule sound better than the 4V, but that's personal taste and you can always EQ out the HF bump of the MK4V if you want.  The side address capsules are better suited to hat mounting though, so that might suit your needs better.  As far as your concern about brittle sound, I've never had any problems EQing either low or high end into or out of my recordings.  One of the reasons I love my Schoeps is they provide sufficient detail that you can do alot with your recordings in post...just make sure you record in 24bit and not 16bit.

[firusan]

I agree with ^ this response.  I personally prefer the native MK4 capsule sound better than the 4V, but that's personal taste and you can always EQ out the HF bump of the MK4V if you want.  The side address capsules are better suited to hat mounting though, so that might suit your needs better.  As far as your concern about brittle sound, I've never had any problems EQing either low or high end into or out of my recordings.  One of the reasons I love my Schoeps is they provide sufficient detail that you can do alot with your recordings in post...just make sure you record in 24bit and not 16bit.

Thanks. One question: with the side address capsules, which way do they face to get the best result?  I might be wrong, but I think the friend who recommended the MK4Vs said he points them to the rear. That sounds weird to me, but....

[larrysellers]

Red dot on the cap is forward facing, always.

[stevetoney]

I agree with ^ this response.  I personally prefer the native MK4 capsule sound better than the 4V, but that's personal taste and you can always EQ out the HF bump of the MK4V if you want.  The side address capsules are better suited to hat mounting though, so that might suit your needs better.  As far as your concern about brittle sound, I've never had any problems EQing either low or high end into or out of my recordings.  One of the reasons I love my Schoeps is they provide sufficient detail that you can do alot with your recordings in post...just make sure you record in 24bit and not 16bit.

Thanks. One question: with the side address capsules, which way do they face to get the best result?  I might be wrong, but I think the friend who recommended the MK4Vs said he points them to the rear. That sounds weird to me, but....

LOL.  That's a common misunderstanding.  They don't actually point to the rear.  What he's talking about is that if you use a fixed mount bar, then you have to arrange side mount capsules so they LOOK like they're pointing backwards, because the end of the capsule is actually pointing rearwards, but the capsule itself is pointing at a 90 degree angle, so the capsule is pointed forward.

In a hat, just arrange the front of the capsules (which on a side mount is the grll, or the side of the capsule) so the front side of one of the grills points 45 degrees left and the other points 45 degrees right and you're close to a DIN config.  The reason the side mount work will in this situation is the curvature of your head makes getting close to the 45 degree angle fairly easy.

[stevetoney]

BTW, adding to the above, you can also put end address capsules in a 45 degree angle in your hat, but the problem is the mic casules aren't separated as far in that case.  So it's more of an XY configuration, but because your capsules might be separated by an inch or two it's not true XY.  With side address capsules, it's usually easier to get closer to a true DIN config in a hat.  Most people prefer the sound of DIN or DINa to XY even when you can get an ideal coincident XY setup.

[daspyknows]

I would recommend the MK4's too.  Bought mine in 1992 and they are still going strong.

[MakersMarc]

A strong vote for 4v caps when running Kangol. Front address capsules dig into my head after about twenty minutes. I didn't really believe peeps who told me thst 4vs on a din bar can simply be dropped into the front of a Kangol but sure enough, it works great, without any sewing or glue gun work on the hat.

As for sound, I've only run Schoeps for not quite a year. I find the 41s to be nice, but a little too much high end for me....a tad bright. Despite the slight HF boost, I do not find the verticals to be bright at all. Flat is a relative term. After running dpa 4022 for 15 years, I wouldn't call the 4v any brighter or boosted, nor less flat.

I can't emphasize the relative ease and comfort of verticals in a hat over front address. Standing for two plus hours with mics denting my bald head....no.

[stevetoney]

Standing for two plus hours with mics denting my bald head....no.

Hahaha.  I'm so bald the lighting guy points stage lighting at my head for additional lighting effects.

Even though I have 4's and I do love them, I'd love a pair of 4v's for the reason you cite above.

[firusan]

A strong vote for 4v caps when running Kangol. Front address capsules dig into my head after about twenty minutes. I didn't really believe peeps who told me thst 4vs on a din bar can simply be dropped into the front of a Kangol but sure enough, it works great, without any sewing or glue gun work on the hat.

As for sound, I've only run Schoeps for not quite a year. I find the 41s to be nice, but a little too much high end for me....a tad bright. Despite the slight HF boost, I do not find the verticals to be bright at all. Flat is a relative term. After running dpa 4022 for 15 years, I wouldn't call the 4v any brighter or boosted, nor less flat.

I can't emphasize the relative ease and comfort of verticals in a hat over front address. Standing for two plus hours with mics denting my bald head....no.

>>Well, as a member of the hairless club for men of long standing myself, I understand. Can someone point me towards the "din bar" mentioned?  I'm not sure what that looks like or where to get one. And...thanks everyone for all the info. I think the MK41Vs sound like they would be the ones for me.

[MakersMarc]

41vs may be too bright for your taste, and if your close all the time, why worry about hypers? If you worry about too much high end, and tape close indoors or out, 4v IMO. From your post, you don't need hypers, you aren't far away from the sound.

"It goes to eleven" on this board builds killer Schoeps bars. I have one that does din and din-a that's perfect for a hat, and also one more appropriate for open taping, a bar that will run the verticals...well, vertical, in din, din-a, Ortf and nos, all on one bar. There are drilled slots for caps/colettes. Go to the retail space section and you'll find him.

[firusan]

41vs may be too bright for your taste, and if your close all the time, why worry about hypers? If you worry about too much high end, and tape close indoors or out, 4v IMO. From your post, you don't need hypers, you aren't far away from the sound.

"It goes to eleven" on this board builds killer Schoeps bars. I have one that does din and din-a that's perfect for a hat, and also one more appropriate for open taping, a bar that will run the verticals...well, vertical, in din, din-a, Ortf and nos, all on one bar. There are drilled slots for caps/colettes. Go to the retail space section and you'll find him.

>>Thanks - I'll check that out re the bar. The Schoeps require a different kind of set-up compared to what I am currently using, so this is new to me.

[DSatz]

I don't have any experience at all with hat-mounted microphones, but just wanted to comment that the MK 41 and MK 41 V don't have a high-frequency boost. The MK 4 V has one, simply because Schoeps thought that the market would prefer it; the cause of the boost has nothing to do with the capsule's "vertical" design.

I do have one comment from experience, though, on the effects of nearby solid objects: Given the spectrum of directional patterns from omni to figure-8 (where cardioid is in the middle, and supercardioid is between cardioid and figure-8), the closer the pattern is to the figure-8 end of the spectrum, the more sensitive it seems to be to the presence of solid objects nearby.

So all other things being equal, if I knew that for some reason I couldn't place my microphones in free space but would need to place them close to ... something, I would lean toward cardioids rather than supercardioids, for example, or even toward the MK 22 or MK 21, if those capsules were otherwise suitable for the recording distance, acoustics, etc.

--best regards

Edited later to add: More recent graphs of the MK 41 V's frequency response actually do show a mild high-frequency elevation, which wasn't shown in the earlier graphs.

[MakersMarc]

I should add.....you can't really go too wrong IMO, Schoeps caps sound really similar to me, except omnis. The differences are pretty subtle. I just don't like forward facing caps when hatting it.

[stevetoney]

So all other things being equal, if I knew that for some reason I couldn't place my microphones in free space but would need to place them close to ... something, I would lean toward cardioids rather than supercardioids,

So the takeaway is that just like some people are tall and others are short, one would need to contemplate their own place in the continuum between space/nothing and dense/solid when choosing the proper capsule.   

[nolamule]

Great thread gents, answering many questions that have been bouncing around in my skull. 

[noahbickart]

I have the mk4v, mk41v, mk22, and mk3 pairs. I will prefer the hyper or the sub in certain situations, but the 4v tape is always just fine. If I had to have only one set of capsules it would be between the mk22 and the mk4v.

In a hat, its obvious, the mk4v.

[F.O.Bean]

MK4 for sure! Most widely used cap IMO! I don't care for the V series caps as much as the regular front-address caps! As always, YMMV That said, the V series ARE easier to ste&lth

[Jhurlbs81]

for a hat is a club, mk4v all day.

[firusan]

Great thread gents, answering many questions that have been bouncing around in my skull. 

Yes - lots of good info. Thanks everyone for helping me out. It looks like the general consensus is in agreement with the friend who also recommended the MK4Vs, so it looks like that will be the way I go. It will take a bit of time to get everything purchased and set up, but I will try and post something here once I have given the gear a test run. This is the first time I've taken advantage of the forums here and it was really helpful.

[swordfish]

Great thread gents, answering many questions that have been bouncing around in my skull. 

Yes - lots of good info. Thanks everyone for helping me out. It looks like the general consensus is in agreement with the friend who also recommended the MK4Vs, so it looks like that will be the way I go. It will take a bit of time to get everything purchased and set up, but I will try and post something here once I have given the gear a test run. This is the first time I've taken advantage of the forums here and it was really helpful.

Almsot the same topic

I am also saving up money for a MK4 or 4V...I use a MK41 at the moment for open taping and I also in smaller clubs, therefore I would like to get the additional mic.... Stack recordings sound better with an cardoid mic instead of an hyper at least in my humble opinion

Before I pull the trigger(and this will take a few additional month)..I would like to get detailed infromation how to "set up/install" the MK4V..since the cap is longer than the MK41...  A picture of a setup will make my day...hope to reveive a PM's!

Or would the MK5 be the best solution?

Note: I have 2 Nob  cables, a side out and a regular for open taping tape Jazz, Rock, Bluesrock etc but nothing real loud.

[todd e]

most times i run the mk41, i regret not manning up and running the 4s or the 21s.  hypers are just the 'safe' capsule, but hardly needed when there are 20 sets of mics....

[noahbickart]

I always run the mk22, as its usually the tape I prefer.