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Author Topic: M/S omni-card-supercard mid  (Read 1913 times)

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Offline boltman

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M/S omni-card-supercard mid
« on: April 25, 2017, 08:54:05 PM »
For the purposes of this discussion, I'm being totally reductive.  Just want to get a basic sense here.

In mid-side, with an omni mid, one could expect the equivalent of crossed cards, with a 50:50 mix, I believe.
With a cardioid, it would approximate crossed hypers.
What would the general equivalent be with a supercardioid mid?

Offline noahbickart

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Re: M/S omni-card-supercard mid
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2017, 09:54:03 PM »
For the purposes of this discussion, I'm being totally reductive.  Just want to get a basic sense here.

In mid-side, with an omni mid, one could expect the equivalent of crossed cards, with a 50:50 mix, I believe.
With a cardioid, it would approximate crossed hypers.
What would the general equivalent be with a supercardioid mid?

Picture something between hyper and figure 8
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline boltman

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Re: M/S omni-card-supercard mid
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2017, 10:37:30 PM »
Sounds logical.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: M/S omni-card-supercard mid
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2017, 03:14:57 PM »
Keep in mind that forward directionality is tied in with the choice of Mid pattern.  That is, the pattern of the Mid mic determines the maximum achievable forward directionality of the stereo configuration.  But because that maximum forward directionality is achieved at a ratio of 100% Mid / 0% Side, it's equivalent to just the Mid in mono and not useful for stereo.  As the proportion of Side is increased the forward directionality of the Mid mic is traded off for increased stereo width, until at a ratio of 0% Mid / 100% Side there is no remaining forward directionality influence by the Mid mic at all.  You just have Side with opposite polarity to each speaker. 

So using an omni Mid means no forward directionality and the sum of the combined patterns will always omnidirectional.  With an omni Mid the virtual patterns will vary across the entire first order pattern range from omni through bi-directional, but the angle between the resulting virtual patterns is always 180 degrees apart regardless of what Mid:Side ratio is used.  So when using an omni Mid and a 50:50 Mid/Side mix, the result is crossed cardioids, but with an angle between them of 180 degrees rather than a more typical stereo X/Y angle. 

The inverse situation happen when using a bi-directional Mid.  In that case the virtual patterns always remain fig-8 at all Mid:Side ratios, and only the angle between the virtual 8's changes.

Using other Mid patterns lands somewhere between those extremes, with both virtual patterns and virtual angles varying with mix ratio, up to the maximum possible forward directivity as determined by the Mid pattern.

So, one way to determine what Mid pattern to use is to consider how much forward directionality you want given your recording position.  If you need to minimize pickup from behind, use the most directional Mid you have available.  If you want to minimize pickup from the sides, use a bidirectional mid along with a minimal amount of side in the mix ratio.
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Offline noahbickart

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Re: M/S omni-card-supercard mid
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2017, 03:40:57 PM »
If you have an ios device, this is very very useful: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/mid-side-mic-visualizer/id486145346?mt=8
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline boltman

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Re: M/S omni-card-supercard mid
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2017, 09:29:01 PM »
Thanks guys--helps to clarify it for me.  Thanks for the link, Noah.

Offline John Willett

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Re: M/S omni-card-supercard mid
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2017, 05:24:00 AM »
For the purposes of this discussion, I'm being totally reductive.  Just want to get a basic sense here.

In mid-side, with an omni mid, one could expect the equivalent of crossed cards, with a 50:50 mix, I believe.
With a cardioid, it would approximate crossed hypers.
What would the general equivalent be with a supercardioid mid?

With an omni mid you get back-to-back cardioids pointing away from each other.

Read the Dooley and Streicher MS paper - you will see all the diagrams in this.  :coolguy:


Offline Gutbucket

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Re: M/S omni-card-supercard mid
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2017, 05:49:19 PM »
Just keep in mind that similar to idealized polar-patterns plots and response graphs, the patterns shown in that paper are ideal/mathmatical/theoretical rather than real-world/actual/as-achieved ones. 

The two are closely related actually.  As the section heading in that paper indicates, those pattern diagrams represent "M-S Stereo: Concept and Theory".  Also read the section titled "Practical Application Notes" at the end.  Most everything talked about in that section is describing things which directly relate to how real-world-achieved patterns do not behave quite like the simple and clean looking conceptual-mathematical pattern diagrams suggest.

However, it gets the basic concept across nicely.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline DSatz

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Re: M/S omni-card-supercard mid
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2017, 10:03:42 PM »
To follow up on Gutbucket's message: In many microphones, the directional pattern varies significantly across the frequency range. The worst offenders are large-diaphragm, dual-diaphragm cardioids; their pickup patterns broaden (sometimes quite a lot) at low frequencies, while becoming narrower at high frequencies. Unfortunately, that's the type of capsule used in most switchable-pattern stereo microphones.

The whole way that X/Y stereo miking creates a stereo image depends on having two microphones with the same pattern as each other AND that same pattern being maintained throughout the audio range.

An inconsistent cardioid pattern will also make for problems in M/S recording, though to a lesser extent, since the pattern of figure-8 microphones is usually more consistent. And the situation of stereo microphones with dual-diaphragm capsules improves when there are more than three patterns available, because then the cardioid setting can be avoided.

--best regards
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 12:07:32 AM by DSatz »
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Offline EmRR

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Re: M/S omni-card-supercard mid
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2017, 11:04:35 PM »
With an omni mid you get back-to-back cardioids pointing away from each other.

About the problem of talking about "idealized" patterns when the actual performance of so many microphones doesn't live up to them: That's not just empty words. Many microphones have a polar pattern that varies significantly at different frequencies. That makes for real problems with coincident (X/Y) recording, and to some extent with M/S as well although less so (as long as the figure-8 is a real figure-8 across the spectrum).

 A cardioid pattern that remains a real cardioid throughout the main part of the audio spectrum can only be obtained from a small-diaphragm, single-diaphragm capsule. And even the best of those run into limitations at high frequencies.

Interesting to think about MKH 800 Twin in this context; on paper 'same as' M/S with an omni if used as a stereo pickup 90º off axis, and probably about as good as any could be, yet not having the on-axis frequency specific qualities of the omni.  Looks to be 7ish dB down at 8kHz and below, dropping rapidly above that, so beamy to the sides in the extreme highs. 

Offline noahbickart

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Re: M/S omni-card-supercard mid
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2017, 09:15:27 AM »
Yet another reason why schoeps capsules are so wonderful. I've had good success with mk4v, mk41, mk3, and especially, mk22 capsules as the M along with the mk8.

To follow up on Gutbucket's message: In many microphones, the directional pattern varies significantly across the frequency range. The worst offenders are large-diaphragm, dual-diaphragm cardioids; their pickup patterns broaden (sometimes quite a lot) at low frequencies, while becoming narrower at high frequencies. Unfortunately, that's the type of capsule used in most switchable-pattern stereo microphones.

The whole way that X/Y stereo miking creates a stereo image depends on having two microphones with the same pattern as each other AND that same pattern being maintained throughout the audio range.

An inconsistent cardioid pattern will also make for problems in M/S recording, though to a lesser extent, since the pattern of figure-8 microphones is usually more consistent. And the situation of stereo microphones with dual-diaphragm capsules improves when there are more than three patterns available, because then the cardioid setting can be avoided.

--best regards
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

 

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