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Author Topic: New snake oil? FiDef  (Read 1156 times)

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Offline morst

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Re: New snake oil? FiDef
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2017, 06:51:46 PM »
This has nothing to do with known audio science, rather a new form of neuroscience. Initial brain scan studies have proven the effectiveness of this process.
Fascinating, thanks for stopping by to check in.
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Offline morst

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Re: New snake oil? FiDef
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2017, 07:32:47 PM »
OK so it's all about this Principle of Inverse Effectiveness theory.
Quote
Definition
The principle that signals from different sensory modalities presented simultaneously will be integrated in inverse proportion to their effectiveness when presented in isolation. Effectiveness is measured, for example, by counting the number of neural impulses generated by a given neuron in response to a visual stimulus alone, a tactile stimulus alone, and a visual and tactile stimulus in combination.
https://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007%2F978-3-540-29678-2_2577

OK now that I got that out of the way... I'm going to take issue with an analogy presented in Roger Dumas' Tedx talk.
"Lossy compression is to music what pixellation is to art"

https://youtu.be/J4eOccE-rEY?t=12m28s

Around 12:50, he is talking about lossy audio compression and comparing it to lowering the pixel resolution of an image.

Lossy audio compression is more like going from millions of colors to thousands of colors, than it is like reducing the number of pixels.

I get it that in Ted talks you only have a small amount of time, but this is an oversimplification.

He's talking about THE ORIGINAL using a digital image of the Mona Lisa as an example. I have never seen the actual Mona Lisa. Only representations of it. . . I'm just not sure this whole line of reasoning is not snake oil. Kinda smells like it...


While I'm here, I should not rip on him without balance. At 16:20, his slide suggests 5 ways to get more benefit from music, and I think that he's right on.

Live Music
Uncompressed recordings (he includes vinyl & cd's here, his perceptual issue seems to be mainly with lossy compression)
Loudspeakers
Group listening
Play an instrument


So you may be onto something... but to look more fully into the Principle of Inverse Effectiveness upon which FiDef seems to depend... I find this conclusion from Nicholas P Holmes's May 2009 abstract:
"I conclude that caution should be exercised when interpreting data that appear to follow the PoIE."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19404728
Holmes, N.P. Brain Topogr (2009) 21: 168. doi:10.1007/s10548-009-0097-2

Oh and here's a previous one from Holmes 2007 published in Neuropsychologia:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028393207002345
"I conclude that the law of inverse effectiveness only sometimes applies, and that the choice of statistical analysis can have profound effects on whether the data abides the law."



All the work we do is fine-tuned according to brain response. For more information surrounding the science, please feel to watch the TEDx talk that Dr. Roger Dumas (PhD, Cognitive Neuroscience) put on late last year.

Revealing our brain’s super-listening powers | Roger Dumas | TEDxMinneapolisSalon:
https://youtu.be/J4eOccE-rEY

Since the release of the TEDx talk, FiDef has hit the marketplace, and we continue to understand more and more about the implications of FiDef on the human brain.
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Offline admkrk

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Re: New snake oil? FiDef
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2017, 09:40:11 PM »
I would take anything from TEDX with a grain of salt. I have watched a few, on various subjects, and do not find it very credible. Take this one, for example, on solar roadways:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvWTaqUvsfA
"the faster you go ahead, the behinder you get"

"If you can drink ram's piss, fuck, you can drink anything"

Offline noahbickart

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Re: New snake oil? FiDef
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2017, 10:38:47 PM »
FiDef crafts cues that elicit a response in the brain. This has nothing to do with known audio science, rather a new form of neuroscience. Initial brain scan studies have proven the effectiveness of this process. This is just the beginning of what will be 50 years of research.

That sounds to me like marketing speak for, "we're trying to market expectation bias."

If the process does something to the signal you should be able to demonstrate what it does. But everything, every sensory experience, including visual cues and the amount of money the product sells for "craft cues that [sic] elicit a response in the brain."

Are you willing to provide a sample for ABX testing?

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Offline ~Jon Stoppable

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Re: New snake oil? FiDef
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2017, 10:53:59 PM »
I don't doubt it has psychoacoustic effects.  That's not the point.  They stated clearly in their patent application that analog magnetic tape recording was perceived as euphonic, and they wanted to implement a noise-generating algorithm to enhance the perception of sound quality.  I don't think those facts are in dispute, since they are the basis of the patent application, in the plain (well as plain as patent apps get) English language.

So they can say that it's not a tape sim all they want, but it has the same stated design goal and an algorithm as stated in the patent application that achieves a very similar result.

So, practically, it's a tape sim, and even if they pretend it's not, the Blackmer page is prior art.  Period.  Take it to court, they will lose (well at least they should, juries are funny things).  Their patent isn't worth anything, in my not very humble opinion.

Now, if their current algorithm has proprietary stuff that's not in the patent, fine, but they either have to file a new patent app or keep that a secret forever, which is pretty hard to do given the quality of audio analysis tools these days.  Given that a member of TS already submitted a file and got the exact result anticipated by me based on their patent application, I kind of doubt their current algorithm is anything different.

It's fine if they want to say that adding noise to a signal makes it sound better.  Maybe I'd even agree with them (although I would not do so in the stated method myself, because I don't think that analog magnetic tape sounds better, but that's just me), but for some reason they are happy to say that in the patent application, but afraid to say that on their website.

They need to be honest with themselves, and resolve their gaping credibility gap between their website, the actual results of their processing, and their patent application.  Really, they are just one company in a very crowded market of plugin developers, many of whom are very happy to be completely forthcoming in the nature of their algorithms.

Offline morst

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Re: New snake oil? FiDef
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2017, 12:13:25 PM »
Are you willing to provide a sample for ABX testing?

Yeah, they said send it in!



To hear FiDef difference for yourself, feel free upload a track to be FiDef'd and emailed back to you via www.fidef.com
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