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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Internal mics question
« Reply #75 on: July 23, 2017, 02:36:53 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I should have been named Will, because where there's a will, there's a way.  I always got my stuff in, no matter the size or the metal detectors...I can write a book, believe me!  Nowadays though, they aren't looking for tapers as much as they're looking for bombs, guns, etc.  We live in a different world.  Not everyone is as capable as we are.

You got it.  I was in London for Eric Clapton when Manchester bombing hit.  Did we leave gear home?  No we stepped up our game and got everything in. 

Offline acidjack

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Re: Internal mics question
« Reply #76 on: July 23, 2017, 05:55:08 PM »
taped Bush last night in Anchorage, ran both the Sonics > DR-2D and another DR-2D with internals sitting on the armrest of an empty seat (of which there were many)

while the bass on the Sonics source is 'more defined', it's also much thinner than what the internals captured. the internals bass sounds richer, and has a wider range on the EQ.

basically it was a "draw" between internals in a $150 deck and a $650 set of mics.

again, proving my point that while nice mics are cool, they are NOT necessary at all to obtain an excellent capture.

Wait, you're running a bass rolloff and saying the resulting bass sounds thin?  :clapping: :iamwithstupid:

Where does he say he had a bass roll off engaged?

My question is at what point did "Sonic Studios" become the standard to measure against? I had a set back in '91 for a while, sure they were easy to stealth, and made a halfway listenable recording at the time, but I'd hardly list them as "nice mics" and as a source Sonics are just above internals and I generally only grab them if they are the only source of I show I really want, or if all other sources are internals.

Sonic Studio mics that have been abused beyond believe if you have followed the variety of threads.  I agree, they are one step above internals and far from "nice mics" and I only grab the recordings if there is no other source and its something I want to hear.  Mostly its listen to a song, find it disappointing and I delete.  They are far from "elitist" mics.
You think? They are overpriced, being based on the same two dollar Panasonic cap as CSB, but they are way better than those. Worse than DPA 4061, but I think comparing those to internals is unfair. Sonics from the sweet spot can, I think, beat a better rig from a less-than-sweet spot. Shit I've made recordings of the same band, same venue, with Audix caps and Church Audio cables in a good spot and my Schoeps in a much worse spot, and the Audix were way better.

But even leaving placement aside, I don't think Sonics can be classed with internals, or CSBs, or probably even CA mics, TBH.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Internal mics question
« Reply #77 on: July 23, 2017, 06:59:51 PM »
taped Bush last night in Anchorage, ran both the Sonics > DR-2D and another DR-2D with internals sitting on the armrest of an empty seat (of which there were many)

while the bass on the Sonics source is 'more defined', it's also much thinner than what the internals captured. the internals bass sounds richer, and has a wider range on the EQ.

basically it was a "draw" between internals in a $150 deck and a $650 set of mics.

again, proving my point that while nice mics are cool, they are NOT necessary at all to obtain an excellent capture.

Wait, you're running a bass rolloff and saying the resulting bass sounds thin?  :clapping: :iamwithstupid:

Where does he say he had a bass roll off engaged?

My question is at what point did "Sonic Studios" become the standard to measure against? I had a set back in '91 for a while, sure they were easy to stealth, and made a halfway listenable recording at the time, but I'd hardly list them as "nice mics" and as a source Sonics are just above internals and I generally only grab them if they are the only source of I show I really want, or if all other sources are internals.

Sonic Studio mics that have been abused beyond believe if you have followed the variety of threads.  I agree, they are one step above internals and far from "nice mics" and I only grab the recordings if there is no other source and its something I want to hear.  Mostly its listen to a song, find it disappointing and I delete.  They are far from "elitist" mics.
You think? They are overpriced, being based on the same two dollar Panasonic cap as CSB, but they are way better than those. Worse than DPA 4061, but I think comparing those to internals is unfair. Sonics from the sweet spot can, I think, beat a better rig from a less-than-sweet spot. Shit I've made recordings of the same band, same venue, with Audix caps and Church Audio cables in a good spot and my Schoeps in a much worse spot, and the Audix were way better.

But even leaving placement aside, I don't think Sonics can be classed with internals, or CSBs, or probably even CA mics, TBH.

Never said they were comparable to internals. The only thing comparable to internals are internals.  Sonics are imho average mics.  Not something I would choose to use if given options.  Side by side they do not compare to DPA 4061s, Schoeps, Neumans, Nak 700s and many others but yeah if you are in the perfect spot with Sonics and in the men's room or back corner with better mics you should get a better recording with Sonics.   Personally, I don't record from a location like that either.  Stealth taping is all about sacrifices.  I am not into sacrificing my mics beyond Schoeps or the location I tape from wherever possible.  I am willing to sacrifice using a babynbox versus an nbox platinum if I fail getting in the first try but that is it.  Placement is a bit of a crapshoot given its stealth and sound of venue beyond any of our control. 

Offline furburger

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Re: Internal mics question
« Reply #78 on: July 24, 2017, 05:07:25 AM »


I have a pair of Sonics (6's I believe).  My taping partner in crime was initially given a pair of 5's to use and review.  He wanted a pair customized for his connecting needs, and they sent him a pair of custom 6's. They're custom cables and the right angle work was impressive, by the way.  Anyway, I ultimately ended up with the 6's and used them several times.  They're far better than any internal I've ever heard, but nowhere near a quality, full-size microphone.  They were built for stealth situations, and handle that exceptionally well, but fall short in sound.  They are way better than nothing, and worth using if a stealth mic set-up is required.
As for them being any kind of standard...they were, in my opinion, the beginning of a quality mic being made exclusively for stealth and ease.  But that is where it ends.  Compared to the options today, I do not believe they hold up.  There are "older microphones" (not stealthy), that hold up to the quality of today's standards, because they sound great.  On the stealth level, I do not believe Sonics hold up compared to more modern offerings in the same category.


but that's half the fun.

that being: pushing an *alleged* inferior mic to the limits of what it can do vs. coasting on mics that cost thousands of dollars.

again, I'm plenty happy with tapes that sound 90% as good as several thousand dollar setups...as are the hundreds if not thousands of different folks who download my stuff.

as for the Sonics, their range is a full 20hz to 20khz. I'm not aware of many mics that exceed that range.

it's too bad their maker is a putz of immense proportions.




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Offline furburger

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Re: Internal mics question
« Reply #79 on: July 24, 2017, 05:09:16 AM »
you must be in the minority then, as I sold a dozen pairs for Leonard in the 90's, and I know more tapers than not who consider them a pretty good standard, starting with their dynamic range.

A lot has happened with technology the last twenty years. What was "pretty good" back in the 90's most likely can't compete with today's standards. Compare the Sonics with other stealth mics like Church Audio and it's obvious that things have developed for the better.


not at all.

I'll take my Sonics and the hundreds of situations I've used them in over Church mics any day (I have a pair as backup that have never been used).

Chris uses cheaper matererials then Leonard, hence his higher break-down rate.

throw in his nearly-a-year repair time, and that's MORE of a hassle than setting up and tearing down a mic stand.


if you can't rely on your equipment, why even bother?
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Offline furburger

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Re: Internal mics question
« Reply #80 on: July 24, 2017, 05:15:16 AM »
you must be in the minority then, as I sold a dozen pairs for Leonard in the 90's, and I know more tapers than not who consider them a pretty good standard, starting with their dynamic range.

A lot has happened with technology the last twenty years. What was "pretty good" back in the 90's most likely can't compete with today's standards. Compare the Sonics with other stealth mics like Church Audio and it's obvious that things have developed for the better.

My Schoeps MK4 caps are 25 years old and sure hold their own.  I have a friend's pair of new MK4's and will be doing an A/B very soon.  The Sonic Studios are entry level stealth mics, nothing more.


yeth dathpy, we *get* that all stealth mics are "entry level mics".....***in your opinion***.


I'd be surprised if my Ben Harper show tomorrow doesn't smoke all of your BH recordings.

again, because I'm pretty well versed in mic placement.


just so you know.
I had and used Sonic Studio DSM6s mics with and without the roll-off.  I also had Neumann KM140's and A lunatec V2.  The Sonics smoked the Neumann/Lunatec V2 in Sound quality. I pulled off my best sounding shows with the Sonics over the Neumanns.  Needless to say I sold the Neumanns and Lunatec V2 because I fell for the BS from the taping community regarding large rigs.  I had to find out the hard way that this was a HUGE waste of money for taping concerts. On that note....When I taped Gov't Mule back in the day with my Neumann rig, the tapers with their rigs were the biggest assholes that thought their gear was the best and they knew it all about mic placement and gain settings, etc.  Everyone at the time was checking the serial numbers on the Lunatecs to see who had the lowest serial number.  Mine was like #9 and I could care less, but it was a big deal to these idiots. I picked up a few of their tapes to see how they sounded and they sounded like shit for what they had running. Sonics all the way for my money. I'll bet if a show was done with Sonics and released with false info, nobody would even know. One can say it was taped with mics Elvis Presley used in Sun Studio run with a Neumann prototype Pre and everyone would be like "wow that shit sounds good". Sonics or bust.

this man speaks more truth than 90% of the peeps here


.

But even leaving placement aside, I don't think Sonics can be classed with internals, or CSBs, or probably even CA mics, TBH.


utterly untrue and laughable.

CSB's are an utter joke of a mic, you have to be 10 ft. from the stack to pull anything usable.

CA, again, SHODDY MATERIALS that BREAK. why anyone would rely on them, I've no idea.

keep telling yourself that to feel better if you wish, but it's like comparing a Subaru Legacy (Sonics) to a Kia or a Yugo (CSB and CA, respectively).

they'll all get you where you're going, but which of the 3 would *you* pick if you were renting?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 05:18:40 AM by furburger »
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Offline furburger

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Re: Internal mics question
« Reply #81 on: July 24, 2017, 05:17:35 AM »

Never said they were comparable to internals. The only thing comparable to internals are internals.  Sonics are imho average mics.  Not something I would choose to use if given options.  Side by side they do not compare to DPA 4061s, Schoeps, Neumans, Nak 700s and many others but yeah if you are in the perfect spot with Sonics and in the men's room or back corner with better mics you should get a better recording with Sonics.   Personally, I don't record from a location like that either.  Stealth taping is all about sacrifices.  I am not into sacrificing my mics beyond Schoeps or the location I tape from wherever possible.  I am willing to sacrifice using a babynbox versus an nbox platinum if I fail getting in the first try but that is it.  Placement is a bit of a crapshoot given its stealth and sound of venue beyond any of our control.


huh?

I've pulled recordings with the Sonics in the 300 level that sound like they were recorded from the 10th row, sans the 'geese'.

or, placement is not a crapshoot at all, IF you know what you're doing.
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Offline if_then_else

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Re: Internal mics question
« Reply #82 on: July 24, 2017, 08:06:58 AM »
but that's half the fun.

that being: pushing an *alleged* inferior mic to the limits of what it can do vs. coasting on mics that cost thousands of dollars.

again, I'm plenty happy with tapes that sound 90% as good as several thousand dollar setups...as are the hundreds if not thousands of different folks who download my stuff.

as for the Sonics, their range is a full 20hz to 20khz. I'm not aware of many mics that exceed that range.

it's too bad their maker is a putz of immense proportions.

FWIW:
(1) Comparing some semi-decent tapes made with sub-par equipment to tapes made with top-of-the-line equipment from a less than ideal spot (or under circumstances beyond your control) is pretty pointless and reminds me of Schopenhauer's law of entropy:

"If you put a spoonful of wine in a barrel full of sewage, you get sewage. If you put a spoonful of sewage in a barrel full of wine, you get sewage."

(2) You can't beat physics (even with umpteen years of taping experience and an alleged legend status). And, yes, there are some UHF mics that go far below 20Hz or beyond 20 kHz. Actually, the Sennheiser MKH 8000 series goes from 10Hz to 60kHz. Whether you're can actually hear the difference is a completely different story.

Offline Moke

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Re: Internal mics question
« Reply #83 on: July 24, 2017, 09:48:43 AM »
DPA 4060 acoustic sampling; no PA to be found anywhere near this music.
Yep,... that scan starts trending at 4hz, and quickly shows multiple sub-sonic peaks (not anomalies).
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Internal mics question
« Reply #84 on: July 24, 2017, 09:59:39 AM »
I guess you can't really tell the difference.  Is that a good thing?


Never said they were comparable to internals. The only thing comparable to internals are internals.  Sonics are imho average mics.  Not something I would choose to use if given options.  Side by side they do not compare to DPA 4061s, Schoeps, Neumans, Nak 700s and many others but yeah if you are in the perfect spot with Sonics and in the men's room or back corner with better mics you should get a better recording with Sonics.   Personally, I don't record from a location like that either.  Stealth taping is all about sacrifices.  I am not into sacrificing my mics beyond Schoeps or the location I tape from wherever possible.  I am willing to sacrifice using a babynbox versus an nbox platinum if I fail getting in the first try but that is it.  Placement is a bit of a crapshoot given its stealth and sound of venue beyond any of our control.


huh?

I've pulled recordings with the Sonics in the 300 level that sound like they were recorded from the 10th row, sans the 'geese'.

or, placement is not a crapshoot at all, IF you know what you're doing.

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Internal mics question
« Reply #85 on: July 24, 2017, 10:07:52 AM »
Let's let others decide.  Post yours and I will post mine and how about a poll?   Let others decide.

Yes, I do have my opinion and you have yours.  If I thought I could make a better recording from the upper levels monkeying around with DR-2D I would do that.  In "my opinion" a Schoeps recording from the sweet spot sounds better than an internal mic recording from ANYWHERE in the venue.


My Schoeps MK4 caps are 25 years old and sure hold their own.  I have a friend's pair of new MK4's and will be doing an A/B very soon.  The Sonic Studios are entry level stealth mics, nothing more.


yeth dathpy, we *get* that all stealth mics are "entry level mics".....***in your opinion***.


I'd be surprised if my Ben Harper show tomorrow doesn't smoke all of your BH recordings.

again, because I'm pretty well versed in mic placement.





[/quote]

Offline nak700s

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Re: Internal mics question
« Reply #86 on: July 24, 2017, 01:37:28 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I should have been named Will, because where there's a will, there's a way.  I always got my stuff in, no matter the size or the metal detectors...I can write a book, believe me!  Nowadays though, they aren't looking for tapers as much as they're looking for bombs, guns, etc.  We live in a different world.  Not everyone is as capable as we are.

You got it.  I was in London for Eric Clapton when Manchester bombing hit.  Did we leave gear home?  No we stepped up our game and got everything in.

We're tapers...that's what we do!   :coolguy:
I'd love to get a copy of that recording, Clapton's a personal favorite.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Internal mics question
« Reply #87 on: July 24, 2017, 02:35:26 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I should have been named Will, because where there's a will, there's a way.  I always got my stuff in, no matter the size or the metal detectors...I can write a book, believe me!  Nowadays though, they aren't looking for tapers as much as they're looking for bombs, guns, etc.  We live in a different world.  Not everyone is as capable as we are.

You got it.  I was in London for Eric Clapton when Manchester bombing hit.  Did we leave gear home?  No we stepped up our game and got everything in.

We're tapers...that's what we do!   :coolguy:
I'd love to get a copy of that recording, Clapton's a personal favorite.

Here you go.  In kick down section thread.     

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=182321.0

Offline nak700s

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Re: Internal mics question
« Reply #88 on: July 24, 2017, 02:52:01 PM »
 :yack: :yack: :yack:

I don't even know how to quote as many of the comments I'd like to in one reply...and I'm not going to try.  People, people. people, we are all connected within a wonderful community that enjoys preserving live music in the best quality that we are both able to, based on our economic condition, as well as our knowledge and preference for various sonic differences.  Although we all enjoy doing the same thing, we all have our own ways of doing things that yield different results.  The important thing is, that we are happy with our own results.  If we choose to put it out there for others to download and enjoy, that's fantastic, but to judge the 'enjoyment' of others based on them downloading our recordings doesn't mean we are taping gods, it means they like our recordings, are creatures of habit, or simply don't have or know of, better sources.  Simply put, they may not know good sound if it bit them in the ass.  However, if they are happy with it, isn't that all that really matters?

We are an opinionated lot, there's no question about that, and I am no different than the rest of you.  I've been recording live music for approximately 35 years and feel I know a thing or two about it.  I have experimented with location, and every configuration of equipment available to me that I could.  It's called a learning process.  That doesn't make me any more of an authority over anyone else here, but it does give me some insight.  Like all of you, my goal was to get to a point where I am happy with my equipment and know how to use it in a multitude of recording situations.  I have done this to my satisfaction.  The thing is, so have many others here, and they will defend their position (equipment & technique) until the cows come home.  I think we can all agree on that last point, can't we?

These things being said, this thread, however entertaining I find it to be, is spinning in a circle with no end in sight.  The same things are being reiterated over and over.  Why, because some people believe that internal mics, or Sonic Studio mics, or Church Audio mics are just as good, better, or suck compared to real microphones I mean full size, "high quality", or expensive mics.  Well, I've got news for ya'll, no matter how misguided some folks may be, what they are doing is right for them.  They don't want to be convinced otherwise, and I don't blame them.  If they are, they would have been wrong for a long time, or simply become unhappy with all they have recorded.  Live and let live.  The original poster had a question, that I think at this point, he got way more than he bargained for.  However, he did get a lot of food for thought and can make a decision based on all of our knowledge.  That's what these forums are all about, right?  I know I've asked many question when I've need other opinions or information...and I'm grateful for those who were kind enough to take the time to help.

I have nothing to close with here, but I wrote so much, I felt there should be a closing paragraph...

 :smash:
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Offline nak700s

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Re: Internal mics question
« Reply #89 on: July 24, 2017, 03:32:53 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I should have been named Will, because where there's a will, there's a way.  I always got my stuff in, no matter the size or the metal detectors...I can write a book, believe me!  Nowadays though, they aren't looking for tapers as much as they're looking for bombs, guns, etc.  We live in a different world.  Not everyone is as capable as we are.

You got it.  I was in London for Eric Clapton when Manchester bombing hit.  Did we leave gear home?  No we stepped up our game and got everything in.

We're tapers...that's what we do!   :coolguy:
I'd love to get a copy of that recording, Clapton's a personal favorite.

Here you go.  In kick down section thread.     

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=182321.0

Thank you :-)
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

 

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