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Author Topic: Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out  (Read 15986 times)

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Offline porphyry

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Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« on: September 02, 2003, 11:22:54 AM »
Sharp are apparently going to release the first PORTABLE Minidisc recorder in about 10 years to feature an optical out  :D (on the docking cradle).

This means you don't have to spend $300 on a good minidisc deck with optical out to get the PCM into a computer.

Find out about it here:

http://www.minidisc.org/part_Sharp_IM-DR580.html

Something like only the first two portable minidisc recorders released by Sony, back in 1992, have had optical outs. The minidisc format has of course improved dramatically since then, with the differences between ATRAC 1 and ATRAC4 Type S kind of like comparing cassette to CD (I'm exaggerating, but its certainly the case in terms of noise!)

Opinions? Comments?

Offline mde420

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2003, 05:24:22 PM »
It's about Frickin' time!
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Offline Styx Cover Band

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2003, 06:06:42 PM »
It's about Frickin' time!

Good Call. Now is this something that is only going to be released in Japan?
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Offline Sean Gallemore

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2003, 03:35:13 AM »
i'll pass

Offline porphyry

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2003, 08:39:31 AM »
the more i think about it, the more i feel like this is just indicative of how the minidisc format is lagging behind other digital music formats.

we've waited ages for a means of getting a digital signal out of a portable recorder, and finally we get one, but its SPDIF PCM, when what would be even more desirable is a USB transfer system!

after all, USB transfers would eliminate the need (for some people) of buying an expensive soundcard with optical-in to get their recordings onto their computer. with USB, all they'd have to do is drag and drop...

by the time USB uploading from minidisc recorders becomes common, the iPods and iRivers and JB3s of the future will probably have moved onto some other, new form of digital transfers.

this really sucks too, because in every other way, minidisc technology is the superior portable digital music format (IMO). by now, minidiscs should have replaced cassette as the average consumer's choice of music recording medium. (minidiscs also have numerous other uses in terms of data storage - how many people know that Sony has already developed a minidisc with a 650Mb capacity (compared to standard minidiscs, which hold about one fifth of that)?)

Sony can't screw their customers like this for so long and get away with it.

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2003, 09:33:51 AM »
by now, minidiscs should have replaced cassette as the average consumer's choice of music recording medium.

There are good reasons MD hasn't replaced cassettes.  CD(R)s have replaced cassettes, and IMO are simply a better replacement than MD.

Sony can't screw their customers like this for so long and get away with it.

Apparently, they can.  And have.

And at any rate, most of Sony's products are targeted at the general public, people who aren't very knowledgeable about audio, video, etc., and frankly couldn't care less if their MD has a digital out.  I think the real question is:  why haven't other prosumer electronics companies stepped up to deliver the products and feature sets for which prosumer markets are willing to pay good money?

DSL offers another fine example of this same problem.  I simply want megabit broadband, both up- and download speeds.  The only way I can achieve these speeds (in my area) is by purchasing a business contract DSL at $300+/mo, including gobs of features and services about which I, as a residential user, couldn't care less.  It really wouldn't take much for the DSL provider to offer the speeds I want at an elevated cost consistent with their existing residential pricing scheme.  Yet...they won't do it.

So, in both cases, it's likely that either  [a] the market simply isn't there and these organizations can't make a significant enough profit relative to their investment, or they're idiots.  IMO, it's likely some combination of both [a] and .

Besides, IMO, the real issue is not why or why not the MD manufacturer's aren't producing MDs with broader, more useful feature sets.  The real issue is how long it will take - and if - the manufacturers of HD players to figure out that if they offer the right recording feature set, they will (and should) wipe MD recorders/players off the face of the earth for good.
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Offline porphyry

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2003, 12:36:44 PM »
allow me to get back up on my soapbox.

like DATheads, MD fans - of which i am one - also have a strange, unhealthy obsession with these pretty, shiny little plastic discs.

although they are extremely popular, i don't think CD-Rs have quite taken over from cassettes. this is partly because you don't see cheap, mainstream 'stereos' sold with CD-R burning drives, but they still all come with cassette decks.
the fact that blank cassettes are still being sold is also significant.

i want MDs to succeed on the same scale as did cassettes, and here are some reasons why:
1) self-interest - i've invested a lot of money, and interest, in Minidisc technology (being too young, i think, for the DAT generation) and want everyone to use minidiscs in everyday life, so the technology and the features improve, for me.
2) i don't think there is a huge difference, quality-wise, between SP mode MD, and CD-R. keep in mind also that Sony have developed a 650Mb capacity minidisc, so there is the potential of bringing this onto the market (whilst making current low capacity minidiscs compatible with the new technology).
3) DAT, though probably technically superior, is too expensive. minidiscs are cheap as chips. and again, the high capacity minidisc offers the possibiliy of UNcompressed minidisc music.
4) i HATE mp3, wma, and vqf, and i don't want any of them to succeed, because they are absolute rubbish, quality-wise. hopefully as internet connections and hard disk capacities improve the need for mp3 will disappear (we could be swapping WAV over the internet one day). i like the latest generation, SP mode ATRAC codec, i think it is the perfect compression ratio and has very minimal loss of quality.
5) minidiscs are easy. add a minidisc deck to a simple, cheap, mainstream stereo and it will be even easier for the average person to operate than a cassette deck (since its all digital and there's none of the tape-winding nonsense).
6) once minidiscs start becoming accepted in the mainstream consumer music world, they can be added as data drives on computers, in digital cameras, etc. etc. (go to www.minidisc.org for more information on this)

don't get me wrong - CD-R is great, but when you can do the same thing with something drastically smaller (ie. high capacity minidiscs), and which can also be used for small portable music devices (lets face it, discmans are too big) - then why not?

Offline zhianosatch

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2003, 12:49:23 PM »
Rubbish. I'll reply when I get a chance today.

Offline dklein

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2003, 01:22:32 PM »

DSL offers another fine example of this same problem.  I simply want megabit broadband, both up- and download speeds.  The only way I can achieve these speeds (in my area) is by purchasing a business contract DSL at $300+/morders/players off the face of the earth for good.

Silly boy Brian - don't you know it costs them much more money to make electrons flow in the opposite direction :lol:
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2003, 01:48:25 PM »

DSL offers another fine example of this same problem.  I simply want megabit broadband, both up- and download speeds.  The only way I can achieve these speeds (in my area) is by purchasing a business contract DSL at $300+/morders/players off the face of the earth for good.

Silly boy Brian - don't you know it costs them much more money to make electrons flow in the opposite direction :lol:

LMAO  Cheers!
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2003, 03:04:05 PM »
allow me to get back up on my soapbox.

Of course!  Only if you don't mind my trying to knock it out from under you.   :P

Quote
like DATheads, MD fans - of which i am one - also have a strange, unhealthy obsession with these pretty, shiny little plastic discs

Unhealthy is right!

Quote
although they are extremely popular, i don't think CD-Rs have quite taken over from cassettes. this is partly because you don't see cheap, mainstream 'stereos' sold with CD-R burning drives, but they still all come with cassette decks.
the fact that blank cassettes are still being sold is also significant.

Cheap mainstream stereos with or without CDR burners isn't the issue.  The physical device utilized for duplicating media has merely shifted from the cheap mainstream all-in-one-box stereo to computer.  The fact that people are utilizing CDR en masse is what's important, not the physical device.  All the dup'ing people do now is on CDRs, with very few exceptions (a few throwbacks still using cassette, a couple freaks using MD, and some geeks pushing new technology like HD and DVD).

Quote
1) self-interest - i've invested a lot of money, and interest, in Minidisc technology (being too young, i think, for the DAT generation) and want everyone to use minidiscs in everyday life, so the technology and the features improve, for me.

Selfish bastard!!    :o

Quote
2) i don't think there is a huge difference, quality-wise, between SP mode MD, and CD-R.

Depends on the playback system, but I've easily identified the sources in blind tests.  MD just doesn't cut it in this regard, but then again - most consumers don't give a damn.  All this is irrelevant, though, because the real issue is MD v. HD, not MD v. CDR.

Quote
keep in mind also that Sony have developed a 650Mb capacity minidisc, so there is the potential of bringing this onto the market (whilst making current low capacity minidiscs compatible with the new technology).

Bah.  Who needs a 650MB disc when you can have a massive HD?!?

Quote
3) DAT, though probably technically superior, is too expensive. minidiscs are cheap as chips. and again, the high capacity minidisc offers the possibiliy of UNcompressed minidisc music.

True, DAT is expensive.  But the issue IMO is no longer MD v. DAT, but rather MD v. HD.  HD will win.  (Care to place a wager?)  Again, high capacity MDs to support uncompressed music become meaningless relative to the massive storage available on HD devices.

Quote
4) i HATE mp3, wma, and vqf, and i don't want any of them to succeed, because they are absolute rubbish, quality-wise.

Hear hear!!

Quote
hopefully as internet connections and hard disk capacities improve the need for mp3 will disappear (we could be swapping WAV over the internet one day).

I don't think so.  The reality is even if most folks had the capability to swap WAVs online, they generally don't give a rat's ass about quality, so why bother waiting 4x as long for a d/l when a crappy MP3 satisfies them just as well?  Those of us with broadband who care about quality are already swapping WAVs online in the form of SHN and FLAC.

Quote
i like the latest generation, SP mode ATRAC codec, i think it is the perfect compression ratio and has very minimal loss of quality.

Nah.  The perfect compression is lossless compression.  But with a massive HD device, why bother compressing at all during recording, or even for playback?  Again, HD wins in my book.

Quote
5) minidiscs are easy. add a minidisc deck to a simple, cheap, mainstream stereo and it will be even easier for the average person to operate than a cassette deck (since its all digital and there's none of the tape-winding nonsense).

Cassettes are already a relic.  MD is easy?  Sure, if you don't mind schlepping around all those MDs.  Just as easy, easier even, soon enough - today with certain devices - to hook up a portable HD device to a mainstream stereo.  Who wants to mess with all those messy little discs?  And no need to add an MD or HD unit to the mainstream stereo, simply provide an input for portable HD devices.

Quote
6) once minidiscs start becoming accepted in the mainstream consumer music world

Once...?  I had to chuckle at this one.  This is a key point and I agree with you completely:  MD can only succeed if it's accepted in the mainstream consumer music world.  However, if MD was going to be accepted in the mainstream consumer music world, it would've happened already.  No way are music labels going to start producing commercially available recordings on MD.  CDR owns the market, and will continue to do so.  MD is niche, now, just like DAT.  CDRs already have a huge consumer base, and HD recorders are the next progression - not in place of but in addition to CDR - because it is IMO, in all ways superior to MD:

[1]  Ability to carry much more data much more compactly
[2]  Superior sound quality due to no lossy compression
[3]  Easy integration with existing devices already dominant in the market place - primarily computer-based CD burners and output to mainstream stereos
[4]  Ability to store multiple filetypes (pics, video, email, etc.) instead of just audio

Quote
they can be added as data drives on computers, in digital cameras, etc. etc. (go to www.minidisc.org for more information on this)

HD/memory devices beat 'em to the punch.  Even if MD is superior in this regard, which I don't think it is (see 1-4 above), first-to-market often makes all the difference in the world.  How many digital cameras and other consumer devices store data on CDR?  Not many.  Why?  Too many options for much larger storage capacities, with HD beating a path to replace the memory devices.

Quote
don't get me wrong - CD-R is great, but when you can do the same thing with something drastically smaller (ie. high capacity minidiscs), and which can also be used for small portable music devices (lets face it, discmans are too big) - then why not?

Agreed!  Only the replacement for - but more likely addition to - CDR will be HD, not MD.  (see 1-4 above)

It may not happen as quickly as I want, or with the specific combinatino feature sets I want, but it will happen - HD devices will rule the marketplace.

(Can anyone tell I'm bored at work today?)
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Offline zhianosatch

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2003, 03:43:02 PM »
Thanks, Brian - you saved me a lot of time!

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2003, 03:45:34 PM »
Thanks, Brian - you saved me a lot of time!

lol  You're welcome, Armen.  I wanted to go on and on...but I actually have to get some work done today.   ::)
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Offline zhianosatch

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2003, 03:53:36 PM »
I know the feelin'... me too... ;)

Offline porphyry

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Re:Minidisc Recorder with Optical Out
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2003, 06:36:11 PM »
well i'm glad i was able to give you some entertainment at work.

allow me to clarify a few things:

Quote
Rubbish. I'll reply when I get a chance today.  

either type something meaningful or nothing at all. "nothing", without any reasons, isn't really a decent rebuttal. also, stay true to your word and take the time to reply, rather than copping out.

Quote
Bah.  Who needs a 650MB disc when you can have a massive HD?!?

fair point. but what i was getting at was MD replacing small capacity storage devices, like floppy disc drives. i probably should have said this.

Quote
Quote:
hopefully as internet connections and hard disk capacities improve the need for mp3 will disappear (we could be swapping WAV over the internet one day).
 

I don't think so.  The reality is even if most folks had the capability to swap WAVs online, they generally don't give a rat's ass about quality, so why bother waiting 4x as long for a d/l when a crappy MP3 satisfies them just as well?  Those of us with broadband who care about quality are already swapping WAVs online in the form of SHN and FLAC.

i was kind of thinking about so far into the future that downloading a WAV file, with an 'average' internet connection, will be faster than it is to download an MP3 today. thus, IMO, MP3 will be supersueded by uncompressed music; and it will be the mainstream internet music format, not just something that concerns tapers.

Quote
Quote:
6) once minidiscs start becoming accepted in the mainstream consumer music world
 

Once...?  I had to chuckle at this one.

i was merely speaking HYPOTHETICALLY, trying to explain why i want minidisc to succeed. i am not deranged, i do not believe that MDs will take over the world.

i think possibly the point i was arguing was misunderstood.  :( i don't think minidisc will surpass cassette or CDR or whatever. i even concede that HD probably will be a very popular medium for portable music and data. i was just going off on a tangent about why i wish minidisc was more successful.  :'(

one day i will embrace HD... when they start making live recordings a standard feature, when they stop making the JB3 look like a friggin discman, when they stop crapping on about bloody MP3s and WMAs.

 

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