Topic: Soundboard Patches and Attenuation

[gratefulphish]

If you are given the choice, is there a preferred set of board outputs that I should picK?  I know a lot of boards have RCA tape out connectors.  Are any of teh other outputs preferable?  Are some hotter than others, and if so, and people have referred to using attenuators, are they referring to normal XLR mic pad type attenuators, or something more like the voltage attenuators between AES/EBU and SPDIF?  In either case, what level of attenuation should I be prepared to handle?

[alienbobz]

The first part of your question depends on the board. For example, at a show several months ago I taped with my mics and patch from the board with my xlrs. The soundguy said that he could do either XLR or RCA but the XLR would be true stereo and the RCA's wouldn't so I just went with the XLRs.

The second part about hotness also depends on the board. I have ran into only one hot board so far and that was before I bought my XLR attenuators. I did buy a pair of Hosa ATT-448 attenuator XLR pads after that but haven't used them yet. They have a choice of either 20, 30, or 40db. Probably for my previous situation I would of pick 20. I went all the way down and it was still peaking.

[gratefulphish]

Hmmmmmmmm.  My pads are only 10db.  May need to buy even more gear. Can feel one more vertibrae compressing.  Thanks. +T

[wbrisette]

The second part about hotness also depends on the board. I have ran into only one hot board so far and that was before I bought my XLR attenuators.

Depending on the board, usually there is an option to turn up or down the output. If your signal is too hot, see if it can be turned down. Too weak and see if it can be turned up. If it can't be controlled and it is too hot, then as mentioned use attenuators. However, you should only have to do this if you are using the XLR outputs. The RCA outs are standard line level outs and should never be too hot.

Wayne

[Rick]

Depending on the board, usually there is an option to turn up or down the output. If your signal is too hot, see if it can be turned down. Too weak and see if it can be turned up.

Last time I got a SBD patch I accidently ran mic in on my R4 and didn't know until after the show. Luckly the sound guy is cool with me adjusting the output 

[Church-Audio]

Hmmmmmmmm.  My pads are only 10db.  May need to buy even more gear. Can feel one more vertibrae compressing.  Thanks. +T

For RCA connectors your looking at a -20 to -10 signal it could also be +4 on some consoles. for a 1/4 output your looking at the same type of signal levels. For XLR out you can get a range from -20 to +4 or even hotter.

I think the best kind of attenuator is one with a control pot. So you can reduce levels. In some cases with cheap sound boards, the sound man does not have control over the output level because its derived from his left and right main output. Some times he does have control but my experience has always been, There is a huge difference between the levels during sound check, to the levels I get during the actual performance. This is because the band is pretty pumped when they get out on stage with a real with an audience.

It's always nice to get good levels during sound check and then back them off about -3 to -6 db so you have some headroom for the first few songs, until the sound man gets the mix together. There is nothing worse then someone bothering me to reduce a level during this time ( because they cant on there end ) So you have to be ( should be )independent, and be able to do it on your end.

A simple 10k dual pot in a project box ( metal )with a set of inputs and outputs will work great. Better then any fixed attenuator because you can just attenuate as much as you have too and not more then you should. Your recordings will have a better signal to noise ratio and you will be able to get the levels exactly where you want them.

Chris Church

[BayTaynt3d]

FWIW, I sometimes use the in-line XLR attenuators that go in three increments -- I forget now exactly but something like 15, 25, and 35. They probably color the sound a little, but I also like them cause they still pass phantom, so sometimes I stick one on a mic'ed channel that's too hot for my R4 to be in mic-in mode. On the R4, the mic/line switches two channels at a time, but I often run a main stereo pair, then spot mic two more channels. I always try to use mic-in if possible (better), so if chan 3 can go mic-in but chan 4 is too hot, I'll sometimes patch in the attenuator, and since it still passes phantom everything still works. Although it would be awesome to have a fully-adjustable pot. Anyway, food for thought.

[gratefulphish]

Thanks, +T all around.  I need to see how the sensitivity controls on the R-4 handle things, and then I will decide whether I need more attenuation from there, but you answered my primary question, which was the type of attenuator. 

[Church-Audio]

FWIW, I sometimes use the in-line XLR attenuators that go in three increments -- I forget now exactly but something like 15, 25, and 35. They probably color the sound a little, but I also like them cause they still pass phantom, so sometimes I stick one on a mic'ed channel that's too hot for my R4 to be in mic-in mode. On the R4, the mic/line switches two channels at a time, but I often run a main stereo pair, then spot mic two more channels. I always try to use mic-in if possible (better), so if chan 3 can go mic-in but chan 4 is too hot, I'll sometimes patch in the attenuator, and since it still passes phantom everything still works. Although it would be awesome to have a fully-adjustable pot. Anyway, food for thought.

Actually attenuators that use resistors can lop of a bit of top end but its not that bad it really does depend on the circuits capacitance. We can not escape using the dam things every console has a pad on the mic input and that is a set of resistors same thing as the product you have. I like the potentiometer because you can dial in the amount needed no more no less. To get a clean signal.

[gratefulphish]

I fully understand what you are saying, but it is one more "box" to add to an already full load.  In an "ideal" world, that would be my choice, but it also seems that the R-4 Pro sensitivity controls may solve this issue.  Time will tell shortly.  Thanks again.

[PH]

If you use the (balanced) main outs, the signal can be as hot as +28 on some boards.
Most consumer and some pro gear cannot handle levels anywhere near that hot.
I think the R4 is around +10 max.

You have to be prepared for a signal as potentially hot as +28.
I use the Shure A15AS, which has -15,-20,-25 attenuation.
It's a must for the gear bag. XLR input/output and twice the size of XLR connector.
I haven't noticed any coloration.

RCA outputs are going to be lower level, so no louder than +10 and as low as -4
1/4 can vary greatly depending on which output. Most of these outputs are going to have level control.

The best output to take is the main outs, post mix and effects. Many soundmen can mirror this feed to you on a sub or aux send with gain control. I always go for th main outs, louder and cleaner signal usally. YMMV....
Cheers, Phil

[rokpunk]

The best output to take is the main outs, post mix and effects. Many soundmen can mirror this feed to you on a sub or aux send with gain control. I always go for th main outs, louder and cleaner signal usally. YMMV....

The *best* output to take is a matrix output with everything, including effects fed to it. That way, any fader changes to the main L and R outs do not effect your tape. Many small format boards don't have a matrix section, but with a PM4/5K, Midas XL , or most other tour grade consoles, setting up a matrix feed is the real way to go.

[PH]

Same difference...... you are looking for the main outs post effects. I would actually prefer to have exactly what the LR is outputting to the mains. Being post fader, the signal output is almost always more uniform and balanced and makes for better 2 track recording.

Whether you use matrix, subs, aux, or whatever the board or engineer calls it......you want to be post all effects and all faders for a 2 track recording. Some would argue that point about effects, compression, eq, and such, and how it might adversly affect the recording, but I've found that unless the compression is ridiculous, it's going to sound much better than a dry pre mixed signal any day.

[Church-Audio]

If you use the (balanced) main outs, the signal can be as hot as +28 on some boards.
Most consumer and some pro gear cannot handle levels anywhere near that hot.
I think the R4 is around +10 max.

You have to be prepared for a signal as potentially hot as +28.
I use the Shure A15AS, which has -15,-20,-25 attenuation.
It's a must for the gear bag. XLR input/output and twice the size of XLR connector.
I haven't noticed any coloration.

RCA outputs are going to be lower level, so no louder than +10 and as low as -4
1/4 can vary greatly depending on which output. Most of these outputs are going to have level control.

The best output to take is the main outs, post mix and effects. Many sound men can mirror this feed to you on a sub or aux send with gain control. I always go for the main outs, louder and cleaner signal usually. YMMV....
Cheers, Phil

The left and right feeds are the money feeds That's why we watch them like a hawk when someone asks for a feed from my sound board. I might put on a pair of headphones once to listen to levels, but my main job is the left and right house mix, and any delay stacks I might have. I like most live sound engineers do not have much time for doing a discrete mix on aux sends.. In the end your always at the mercy of the FOH sound engineer.

I would always talk to a FOH sound engineer like this

1- Can I get a feed from your console if yes move to step 2

2- Can I get it from a matrix output that comes from left and right house feeds? if yes proceed to step 3 9 times out of 10 it will be XLR male connectors from this output.

3- Is your house eq's inserted on the left and right? if so can you give me a pre insert feed from the matrix out? if no proceed to step 4

4- If no then can you give me a control room out? or a tape out? if yes your in business if no then the last resort is a aux mix ( then you have to decide what to ask for) in the way of instruments. In the end you get what you get. But if you at least sound like you know what end the xlr looks like sound engineers like me are more then willing to help you get what you need. I know it sounds snobbish but its a real war fount of house sound engineers wage, I will not let a board feed jeopardize my show, I will always concentrate on my house mix. That's because I just want to keep my job. As a taper you have to realize this FOH guy has a very hard job and he will always value people that know what they want and be able to communicate it fast, Time is money.

Just my two cents.

Chris Church

[rokpunk]

Same difference...... you are looking for the main outs post effects. I would actually prefer to have exactly what the LR is outputting to the mains. Being post fader, the signal output is almost always more uniform and balanced and makes for better 2 track recording.

Whether you use matrix, subs, aux, or whatever the board or engineer calls it......you want to be post all effects and all faders for a 2 track recording. Some would argue that point about effects, compression, eq, and such, and how it might adversly affect the recording, but I've found that unless the compression is ridiculous, it's going to sound much better than a dry pre mixed signal any day.

Not the same at all. There is a big difference between an aux out, a subgroup out, a matrix out, a B mix out, and the mains out. Yes, the simple answer for recording is to take the mains out, but most of the time the main outs are already spoken for...for what they are intended...the mains. An aux out, even a stereo mix, isn't going to yield you the best results since, even if the engineer sets every channel to unity on the aux send of each channel, you still aren't going to get the effects returns on your tape, unless, of course, the engineer brings all his effects back in channels and remembers to send the effects out on the tape aux feed. Subgroup outputs aren't going to do you much good for a recording, since, generally speaking, they are used for grouping instruments, vocals, etc, and, again, you aren't going to get effects. Plus, most small format consoles don't even have subgroup outputs (none on the Midas Venice, the small format console flavor of the month). The B mix output is a safe bet to get a decent tape, but the B mix usually follows the main L and R faders...which is OK, but any changes made to the mains (L & R) will effect your recording. My solution is this......I set up a stereo matrix mix of all my subgroup or VCA outputs, plus all my effects returns, and record from that. That way, if I add 3 or 4db at the end of a song to the live mix, it doesn't effect the recording. Of course, this can only be done with a board with a true matrix section (aka a PM3/4/5K, XL, etc...), and with an engineer who is willing to work with you to figure out what you want on the tape.

I'm not exactly sure what you are refering to when you mention "effects, compression, eq, and such, and how it might adversly affect the recording", but any channel eq change is going to effect a board recording on any output from the board. The main EQ isn't going to affect your tape at all since you are getting a signal before the signal even hits the EQ.