Topic: Cable Comparison with The Mic Hybrid & Hydra mic cables

[Church-Audio]

Early April, Chris.  In the mean time, I would love to hear your theory on the differences in sound between these sets. 

Chris

The Mic Hybrid cables aren't going to be back here until early April.  I will do the mono and stereo tests in front of my stereo, directly into the 722.  I'll even take pictures.  Once the theory that mic cables are capable of making a difference, any difference at all...we're going to get back to making comparison tapes at venues and talking about that.

Chris, did you listen to the recordings?  What do you think caused the second set to sound better?  I realize the comparison doesn't hold weight in your eyes, but the difference in sound is pretty hard to miss.  What do you think caused the sound to change the way it did?  I'm asking you because of your FOH experience.

Chris

Ok fair enough please give me a day ok and I will listen. Is there any more information you can give me about these tracks that I should know?

Thanks

[Brian]

in my quick listen the high end was much smoother and nicer to listen to in set 2 which i think were the van den haul's.

the hydra's were a little strident inthe high end. i'm assuming both cables were burned in.....

but like others have said.....kevin could have changed up the eq's of various instruments and/or the mains between sets

[cshepherd]

There's some distortion that comes in around one of the vocal channels throughout the show.  I think the two tracks I originally pointed out are good.  There's minimal distortion in both of those tracks.  With regards to set break tweaks by the FOH enginner, I would also suggest listening to the last couple of songs on the first set, followed with the first track on the second set.  Then ask yourself if you could have made those changes during set break.  I think that theory is pretty weak, but I would like to hear your opinion.

I would pay attention to the drums, bass and room acoustics.  Tonally, the differences were not as great.  It's more about the presentation.  Those are my thoughts.  Thanks to those who posted about the sound and to everyone for keeping this discussion fairly well on track...all things considered.

Does anybody work around here?

Chris

[Brian]

i work enough to not listen to that UM show that much  for tihs comp

[Todd R]

I'll take that as a 'No, I didn't listen to the recordings'.  I would rather send the cables out to someone who's taping a show.  I can do a lab test in ten minutes right here at home. 

Chris

Then do it and upload the files...

Then we can all have a listen! Great Idea when can we expect them?

The Mic Hybrid cables aren't going to be back here until early April.

I'll go out on a limb here and say....we won't be expecting them until early April. 

[Todd R]

I think we should also realize there is a value in having n= something more than 1 here.

That is, if recording one source at the same time with 2 differen sets of cables but with 2 sets of identical mics, recorded with the same model recorder, same pattern, same stand with mics pairs within inches of each other is not perfectly valid since the mics are in different places, are different sets of mics, and different recorders, then these are still useful tests. 

Run this test with this setup once and make judgements, then run it 20 or 50 or 100 more times (either going back and forth with what mics and recorder were used with each cable set, or by using entirely different matching sets of mics and matching recorders).  If the same characteristics are noticed every single time for a given cable for a set of tests run this way 100 times (n=100), it would be much more logical to conclude the differences are due to the cables than to assume that somehow you randomly came to the same set of characteristics even though the location, mics, and recorders had been varied so many different times.

[Jamos]

How about using 2 of the same model CD player, one with x cables, one with y cables...going into the same playback system.  Use a cleanly recorded track that you are very familiar with for the test.  Then you can A-B between the two sources and hear any actual differences.

While there still are some variables in there, this is a lot closer to "controlled".  It's not necessary to use mics just to hear the cable difference.    It will pass signal whether it is a mic signal or a line signal...and by not using mics you eliminate all kinds of other variables.  You can still use your ears this way, and you could even record from CD > 722 using each set of cables so you could share the results with the rest of us.

Shepard, you have some sweet playback gear up there I'm sure, you could probably do this pretty easily right?
 

I still haven't downloaded the show to listen, anyone have a couple tracks I could download individually without having to grab the whole show?

[OFOTD]

How about using 2 of the same model CD player, one with x cables, one with y cables...going into the same playback system.  Use a cleanly recorded track that you are very familiar with for the test.  Then you can A-B between the two sources and hear any actual differences.

While there still are some variables in there, this is a lot closer to "controlled".  It's not necessary to use mics just to hear the cable difference.    It will pass signal whether it is a mic signal or a line signal...and by not using mics you eliminate all kinds of other variables.  You can still use your ears this way, and you could even record from CD > 722 using each set of cables so you could share the results with the rest of us.

Shepard, you have some sweet playback gear up there I'm sure, you could probably do this pretty easily right?
 

I still haven't downloaded the show to listen, anyone have a couple tracks I could download individually without having to grab the whole show?

Thankfully Brian Sax made a comment earlier that brought me back down to earth on this topic.   

Running a comp isn't going to settle anything.  I don't tape in a living room or an office.  I run in smoky, smelly, beer soaked bars and hot-ass sheds.   All that hooking a cable up to a cd player will do is tell you the differences in a studio and we all know the difference between a studio and say Red Rocks. 

I passed on some thoughts via PM to a member here and want to suggest it.  If you are looking for new cables or really want to find out the differences between what you currently own then look in the Yard Sale.  You can always find great deals on used cables and if you don't like them then resell them.  Cables always seem to be in demand here anyways. 

No matter what I hear or Chirs Shepard hears or Mr. Taper hears YOU could hear something totally different.  You are taping for yourself not for me or anyone else.  You have to come up with the cash for cables for your rig not me. 

Find some in the yard sale and try them yourself, don't like em don't keep em.

[Jamos]

  All that hooking a cable up to a cd player will do is tell you the differences in a studio and we all know the difference between a studio and say Red Rocks. 

It will show what audible difference a cable makes in the signal chain...isn't that what we are trying to determine?
Any differences shown by this test will just translate into a field recording situation.  Whether the differences are positive or negative in use w/your specific microphone is a whole different discussion.
I understand your point of view, but testing in the "studio" is a way better approach as far as having control over the situation and being able to listen and then change your test...As opposed to listening to a show when you get home and then waiting until next time to try something different, where the whole mix at the show will be different anyway.  It's tough to do tests in the field since you only really get one shot.

[Shawn]

With regards to set break tweaks by the FOH enginner, I would also suggest listening to the last couple of songs on the first set, followed with the first track on the second set.  Then ask yourself if you could have made those changes during set break.  I think that theory is pretty weak, but I would like to hear your opinion.

I would pay attention to the drums, bass and room acoustics.  Tonally, the differences were not as great.  It's more about the presentation.  Those are my thoughts.  Thanks to those who posted about the sound and to everyone for keeping this discussion fairly well on track...all things considered.

Does anybody work around here?

Chris

well it's not just what the FOH engineer did during set break. what if the angle of your mics changed when you switched cables? what if the height of your stand was different? what if top section of the stand was rotated slightly while raising it and thus the mics were pointed in a different direction (bogen stands can do this easily), what if the musicians made adjustments on-stage, what if there were siginificantly more (or less) people in the room, what if the taper made adjustments to their levels, etc...

for me there are just too many possible explanations for why the sound is different for me to assign it to one any of the variables.

I think any theory that attributes the difference in sound to any one of those variables is pretty weak.

Eidt to fix sum spelin miss stakes

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I think any theory that attributes the difference in sound to any one of those variables is pretty weak.

So when I switch from the C4's to the MGs at the break, I'm not really hearing the impact of better mics?

[OFOTD]

  All that hooking a cable up to a cd player will do is tell you the differences in a studio and we all know the difference between a studio and say Red Rocks. 

It will show what audible difference a cable makes in the signal chain...isn't that what we are trying to determine?

It will ONLY show the audible difference between a cd player and a recorder.

Any differences shown by this test will just translate into a field recording situation.  Whether the differences are positive or negative in use w/your specific microphone is a whole different discussion.

I 100% totally disagree.  Nothing about cd player > recorder is anything like what I/we use in the field.   

Let's say you want to buy a sports car.  Are you going to test in on the open road or in a school zone?  Both involve driving.  What that car does at 20mph in the school zone has absolutely nothing to do with how its going to drive on the highway or on a track. 

By testing from cd player > recorder you are taking out thousands of variables that I/we incur any night taping.  Say there are 1000 different variables at a show.  If a nice set of cables can make a positive effect on say half of those variables are they worth it?  If they positively effect just 1 variable is it worth it?

[Todd R]

  All that hooking a cable up to a cd player will do is tell you the differences in a studio and we all know the difference between a studio and say Red Rocks. 

It will show what audible difference a cable makes in the signal chain...isn't that what we are trying to determine?
Any differences shown by this test will just translate into a field recording situation.  Whether the differences are positive or negative in use w/your specific microphone is a whole different discussion.
I understand your point of view, but testing in the "studio" is a way better approach as far as having control over the situation and being able to listen and then change your test...As opposed to listening to a show when you get home and then waiting until next time to try something different, where the whole mix at the show will be different anyway.  It's tough to do tests in the field since you only really get one shot.

Not necessarily.  Not to say living room tests aren't useful, but these tests might not convey all field conditions.  

Take for instance noise.  First off, you'll have a hard time finding someone with both a balanced (XLR) out CD player and a balanced (XLR) in preamp to do the living room tests.  So you might be testing unbalanced cable response vs. balanced cable response.  Second, how different cables handle noise -- RFI and EMI noise -- affects how they sound.  Your living room is likely to have far less RFI/EMI noise than a music venue with SCRs, florescent lights, much more high current power lines running through it, etc.  So a living room test would totally miss this aspect of cable differences as compared to a field test in a club.

[Church-Audio]

  All that hooking a cable up to a cd player will do is tell you the differences in a studio and we all know the difference between a studio and say Red Rocks. 

It will show what audible difference a cable makes in the signal chain...isn't that what we are trying to determine?
Any differences shown by this test will just translate into a field recording situation.  Whether the differences are positive or negative in use w/your specific microphone is a whole different discussion.
I understand your point of view, but testing in the "studio" is a way better approach as far as having control over the situation and being able to listen and then change your test...As opposed to listening to a show when you get home and then waiting until next time to try something different, where the whole mix at the show will be different anyway.  It's tough to do tests in the field since you only really get one shot.

Not necessarily.  Not to say living room tests aren't useful, but these tests might not convey all field conditions.  

Take for instance noise.  First off, you'll have a hard time finding someone with both a balanced (XLR) out CD player and a balanced (XLR) in preamp to do the living room tests.  So you might be testing unbalanced cable response vs. balanced cable response.  Second, how different cables handle noise -- RFI and EMI noise -- affects how they sound.  Your living room is likely to have far less RFI/EMI noise than a music venue with SCRs, florescent lights, much more high current power lines running through it, etc.  So a living room test would totally miss this aspect of cable differences as compared to a field test in a club.

Fair enough Todd but you have to have the same microphone for the test and the same source if not how can you make a meaningful comparison between cables? so you need at the very least a cd player or some recording played back thru a speaker because in a live situation you can not get the band to play the same song twice exactly the same way so the results are then not worth much. I mean if I am going to listen to a pair of speakers and A/B them I want to hear the same track on both sets of speakers of course at different times. So you need a prerecorded source in order to make sure that what the mic captures is exactly the same so that you will know what differences the cables made in the first place right? I know what your saying about emf and emi I agree 100% that these things effect sound. They do but if we just want to listen to the basic difference of a cable dont we at least need the same exact source and same exact mics in the same exact position so we can know for sure that if there are differences its the cable that is making the changes not the fact that its a new song or a new mic position? That's All I have ever wanted to say about this subject I know science is not what we are about we are about using our ears. But I can make an objective decision when you have two different pairs of mics or different mic positions or different sources.... Can you? if so you have better ears that I do. I cant I need to hear the same song with the same exact setup in order to know what the differences are with 100% certainty. And if we are going to do tests dont we want to be a certain as we can before we lay down our hard earned money. Look I am not saying good cables dont make a difference that would be stupid what I am saying is can we really tell between a nice star quad and a super high end cable? and if so why not do a simple test that puts this to bed once and for all? then all the people who dont believe will... Sales will increase and everyone wins right?

[Shawn]

I think any theory that attributes the difference in sound to any one of those variables is pretty weak.

So when I switch from the C4's to the MGs at the break, I'm not really hearing the impact of better mics?

maybe, maybe not. certainly an argument can be made that any one of the factors I listed or a few hundred other possiblities all could have played some small part in the differences. This is one data point with literally hundreds of variables, and so making an assertive statement that one of the variables was responsible for the result would be errant. For the data to be more reliable one of two things must happen.

1) a new test with a more rigourous attempt to reduce the number of variables must be done
2) more data points are required. if he switched cables at dozens of shows then we could start to analyze the results and see if a pattern emerges.

let's put it this way... if I was running mic brand X that you had never heard for one set and mic brand y that you had never heard for the second set would you attribute the difference in sound to the mics or would you want more data?