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Offline mosquito

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Compressor Suggestions?
« on: November 01, 2009, 11:14:25 PM »
I'm wondering about getting a compressor to attenuate applause.  Anyone have any suggestions?

I've recorded a couple of acoustic shows where the music was relatively quiet but applause was very loud where I was set up.  95% of the time I can set up so that it's minimized, but not all of the time, so I was thinking, maybe I can use a compressor and only / mainly affect the applause while being able to raise the music levels off the floor.  What could do this for me?

My current gear is a PMD671 and Rode NT5's or Studio Project C4's.  I'm planning on getting the Oade ACM and probably a nicer set of mics over the winter.

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Compressor Suggestions?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2009, 11:41:20 PM »
Why not just do it in post-production with your favorite audio editor?
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Offline mosquito

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Re: Compressor Suggestions?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2009, 12:21:24 AM »
Most of the time I do this, but in a few cases it hasn't worked out well.  If I keep the applause from peaking, the quietest music is too close to the noise.  Setting levels for the applause ends up with a noisy recording.  The unsatisfactory compromise has been to get OK levels -- eh, maybe -15 dB -- for the music and let the applause clip. 

Offline Kyle

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Re: Compressor Suggestions?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2009, 03:59:03 PM »
I have used the soft limit on my Apogee MiniMe  for just this type of situation and it has worked very well. Sounds very good as well.
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Offline mosquito

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Re: Compressor Suggestions?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2009, 05:13:04 PM »
Thanks for the detailed responses and suggestions. :)

For me, my Rode mics are quieter than the Studio Projects, but I'm pretty sure the built-in preamps are the source of the noise.  I was hoping something out there would work between the mics and the preamps or a preamp that would also do the compression. 

Maybe things will be better after I get the ACM, too bad I won't be able to do a side-by-side comparison though.  Maybe I can find a Mini-Me to check out too.

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Re: Compressor Suggestions?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2009, 12:18:09 AM »
Thanks for the detailed responses and suggestions. :)

For me, my Rode mics are quieter than the Studio Projects, but I'm pretty sure the built-in preamps are the source of the noise.  I was hoping something out there would work between the mics and the preamps or a preamp that would also do the compression. 

Maybe things will be better after I get the ACM, too bad I won't be able to do a side-by-side comparison though.  Maybe I can find a Mini-Me to check out too.

The MiniMe is really a great piece of gear. Many people do not like its on-board pre-amps but I find them to be quite decent. They can provide a lot of gain and are very clean. It does have an excellent ADC and the soft-limit can be very useful in your type of situation.

Mics > MiniMe > coax > PMD671 is a great rig. It is more gear to carry around and while the ACM PMD671 does sound very good, IMO the MiniMe has it beat.

Do it! You won't regret it! :)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 12:20:29 AM by Kyle »
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Compressor Suggestions?
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2009, 11:35:55 PM »
I don't think you'd want a compressor for this purpose; I think you more likely want a limiter. Compressors change gain more slowly than limiters--they respond more to average levels than to peaks--and they return to unity gain more slowly as well. When the applause starts, a compressor would typically let the first several claps overload your recording unless you leave more headroom above the peak music level than you probably would like to do. And when the applause stops, a compressor might well still be holding down the gain, while a limiter would spring back to unity gain more quickly.

And I think you want the limiter's threshold set so that music never "triggers" it but so that applause would definitely do so.

Still, there's a limit (no pun unintended) to how much benefit you can actually get from a limiter without things sounding strange, because if the limiter ducks the applause by (say) 20 dB, then the ambient noise drops by that amount as well, and that sounds kind of eerie--as if the room suddenly got sucked into space or something.

--best regards
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 11:37:33 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline datbrad

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Re: Compressor Suggestions?
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2009, 02:43:23 PM »
Definately agree that with soft acoustic music, when setting levels for applause, the noise floor is brought up in the music. But, if you allow the applause to overload to overcome this, limiting it in post will not improve the horrible distortion, it will just keep it down to the highest peaks in the music. In that situation, a little bit of noise is the preferred compromise, IMO.

I do believe that properly done analog limiting during the recording process itself yields the best results. I recorded a solo acoustic player at an old church back in April, and used the optical limiters in my MP-1s just as DSatz suggests, with the limiter set to engage right at the point of the highest peaks of the music, which was less than half as loud as the applause between songs.

The analog optical limiter prevented the applause from overloading or peaking louder than the music, and because of this, the noise floor remained very low and the sound overall was clean, with no distortion.

I would suggest looking at the Sound Devices MP-2 or Mixpre, as these units have real optical limiters that are analog. The Apogee, while a really nice sounding box, I believe uses digital limiting which if true would basically be the same as applying limiting in post.

A properly set optical limiter in the analog portion of the signal path in front of the A/D usually sounds best to my ears.

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Offline Kyle

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Re: Compressor Suggestions?
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2009, 04:32:44 PM »
DATBRAD - thanks for the info on the analog optical limiters.

I have use the Apogee quite a bit (the MiniMe and the AD1000 - nice thing about the AD1000 is that you could calibrate the limiter as to where you wanted it to kick in) and if you do not overdrive the soft limit, you can keep the noise floor very low, control the applause and keep the music at a reasonable level. While I am quite sure that analog limiting is ultimately the best route to take, the Apogee does a surprisingly good job - far better than applying the limiting in post as the circuit was designed very well.  Worth looking into, IMO.     
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Offline datbrad

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Re: Compressor Suggestions?
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2009, 05:09:27 PM »
DATBRAD - thanks for the info on the analog optical limiters.

I have use the Apogee quite a bit (the MiniMe and the AD1000 - nice thing about the AD1000 is that you could calibrate the limiter as to where you wanted it to kick in) and if you do not overdrive the soft limit, you can keep the noise floor very low, control the applause and keep the music at a reasonable level. While I am quite sure that analog limiting is ultimately the best route to take, the Apogee does a surprisingly good job - far better than applying the limiting in post as the circuit was designed very well.  Worth looking into, IMO.     

I have heard that the limiting on the Apogee is digital, but it might not be totally digital like in a DAW. I was thinking more about this, and believe it is possible that the limiters in the MME and AD1K are digitally controlled analog limiters, meaning that the actual limiting action is analog, but instead of using an optical diode to trigger the limiter, it's a digital sensor of some type.

Either way, limiting at the show, while more difficult to do correctly in the field, sounds better to me than limiting in post by just cutting off the peaks.
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Offline Kyle

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Re: Compressor Suggestions?
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2009, 07:54:07 PM »
DATBRAD - thanks for the info on the analog optical limiters.

I have use the Apogee quite a bit (the MiniMe and the AD1000 - nice thing about the AD1000 is that you could calibrate the limiter as to where you wanted it to kick in) and if you do not overdrive the soft limit, you can keep the noise floor very low, control the applause and keep the music at a reasonable level. While I am quite sure that analog limiting is ultimately the best route to take, the Apogee does a surprisingly good job - far better than applying the limiting in post as the circuit was designed very well.  Worth looking into, IMO.     

I have heard that the limiting on the Apogee is digital, but it might not be totally digital like in a DAW. I was thinking more about this, and believe it is possible that the limiters in the MME and AD1K are digitally controlled analog limiters, meaning that the actual limiting action is analog, but instead of using an optical diode to trigger the limiter, it's a digital sensor of some type.

Either way, limiting at the show, while more difficult to do correctly in the field, sounds better to me than limiting in post by just cutting off the peaks.


Agreed 100% :coolguy:



mshilarious - great info - thanks!
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 07:56:34 PM by Kyle »
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Offline mosquito

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Re: Compressor Suggestions?
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2009, 07:03:24 PM »
Wow, cool.  Getting serious content in replies, i.e. beyond just 'get this' or 'do that', is always very appreciated.  Thanks!  :o)

--

FWIW:  I've been thinking about this more since I made the OP and checking out what my rig's doing a little more closely.  I got another show on Sunday that could have had the same problems if there had been a full house and I had had to set up at the back of the audience or if the performer used less amplification. 

It was a solo singer with acoustic guitar in a small bar and I wound up going to the side of the stage.  Being in a neighborhood bar I had no idea if a crowd would appear in the middle of the show, I went conservative: I set levels such that

- Three times during the show the music peaked near -11 dB
- Max applause was at -19 dB
- Most of the music peaked at -20 dB
- Quiet songs peaked at about -36 dB
- Ambient noise came in at about -63 dB

The interesting thing is for some reason I started the recorder with the gain set to 0 and got a couple of seconds of (what I assume is) just the unit's preamp noise.  I analysed it and the parts I find most annoying are above 10k Hz and range from about -52 to -58 dB. 

So I have an effective dynamic range of only about 50 dB and some of what I periodically record winds up using a bit more than that.  Boo.

(AFAI can tell, that's really the source of my woes.  The specs say a 92 dB dynamic range for line in and 65 dB for using the preamps...  I can see where they get the 65 dB number.  It looks like it's prolly accurate, but it just isn't *real*, know what I mean?  Hmm.  I bet I only have about an 80 dB range for the ADC's in there too.)

Now, if I had preamps that would give me 90+ dB I would be pretty happy for situations like Sunday.  The total range of what I wanted to record was prolly 65 dB-ish.  If the setup and audience had been different I could see wanting another 10+ dB.  With that I could be reaching the limits of the ADC, but it would / should be so minimal I might not care.  Having the option to use a little insurance would still be nice though.

I can think of one very particular situation I record in -- which would include people both 'two-finger whistling' from a couple of feet away and people nearly whispering from 50 yards -- I can definitely see wanting a limiter / compressor on top of better preamps 'cause without it I'll be running into the ADC wall.

--

Thanks again,  Looks like we've changed / added to my purchase list.  I'll be shooting for things in an order something like this:

Get a second, smaller / newer / cheaper recorder that I can use for very low profile recording and while I'm without the PMD671, then

Get the ACM, then

Get some preamps with a built-in limiter, then (finally)

Get some nicer mics that will actually be able to use this huge dynamic range.

Then maybe I'll win the lottery.

--

And, for lurkers looking for a primer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression

 

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