Author Topic: Low levels... (Read 10229 times)

mirth · « **on:** May 22, 2003, 10:45:34 AM »

Hey all,

Been lurking for a while and tried to answer this myself but have come up short so far...

Recently upgraded my rig to some better equipment and now all I get are really quiet recordings. I was trying to calibrate my setup and while Sound Forge registered levels topping out at -30dB (microphones about 3' from speakers...), when I played back what I had taped it sounded like someone was whispering into the mics.

Setup: AKG C1Ks (9v internal powered) > VXpocket V2 > SoundForge 6

Can anyone provide tips or pointers on what could be going on here?

TIA,
Al

JAH · « **Reply #1 on:** May 22, 2003, 10:49:34 AM »

How loud is the system level and what is you mic set up? CK1's>

?jk/480/460/450?

?
Can you run it into a deck vice lappy to check there?

jah

mirth · « **Reply #2 on:** May 22, 2003, 10:59:20 AM »

Guess I don't know what you mean by sound system level...

I was playing back a Possum from mid 95, and the stereo was turned up to approximately what I'd consider concert level - 8 or so on a 150W receiver.

Mic setup was just the both pointing at one of the speakers. At first I ran them roughly ORTF and ended with the same results.

I don't have access to a DAT or other method of recording, however if I had to I can prolly get some other microphones to check that out.

Joe w. · « **Reply #3 on:** May 22, 2003, 11:19:26 AM »

JAH....those are c1000's

mirth · « **Reply #4 on:** May 22, 2003, 11:29:06 AM »

Um, yeah. My bad... AKG C1000s. Seen 'em referred to as C1Ks before, didn't realise that CK1 is another AKG product.

hippies · « **Reply #5 on:** May 22, 2003, 11:29:18 AM »

Quote from: mirth on May 22, 2003, 10:45:34 AM

Hey all,

Been lurking for a while and tried to answer this myself but have come up short so far...

Recently upgraded my rig to some better equipment and now all I get are really quiet recordings. I was trying to calibrate my setup and while Sound Forge registered levels topping out at -30dB (microphones about 3' from speakers...), when I played back what I had taped it sounded like someone was whispering into the mics.

Setup: AKG C1Ks (9v internal powered) > VXpocket V2 > SoundForge 6

Can anyone provide tips or pointers on what could be going on here?

TIA,
Al

if you are running c1000s> VX> SF 6.0 then your VX is doing the A/D stage and you need to set your levels within SF yourself. there must also be some controling s/w that comes with the VX which may need to be tweaked. make sure you have the VX set to recieve an analog signal. then my advice would be to turn that sucka up in SF brah!

seriously, -30db peaks will sound like something is wrong or a 'whispered recording' as you describe. however, these level settings are completely at your discretion as to where they are set. you will want your levels to peak out at around -6 -> -4db to get the most out of Dynamic Range and yet leave yourself a lil Headroom for transient peaks.

hope this helps..

let us know if you have more questions an let us know how it turns out!

peace

~S

mirth · « **Reply #6 on:** May 22, 2003, 11:35:44 AM »

Quote from: hippies on May 22, 2003, 11:29:18 AM

if you are running c1000s> VX> SF 6.0 then your VX is doing the A/D stage and you need to set your levels within SF yourself. there must also be some controling s/w that comes with the VX which may need to be tweaked. make sure you have the VX set to recieve an analog signal. then my advice would be to turn that sucka up in SF brah!

seriously, -30db peaks will sound like something is wrong or a 'whispered recording' as you describe. however, these level settings are completely at your discretion as to where they are set. you will want your levels to peak out at around -6 -> -4db to get the most out of Dynamic Range and yet leave yourself a lil Headroom for transient peaks.

hope this helps..

let us know if you have more questions an let us know how it turns out!

peace

~S

Yup, thats essentially how I have things right now. Problem is, SF has no internal level/gain control, instead it says to use the software volume control in Windoze.
The VXPocket's software does have its own mixer in which I can raise the levels by +/- 6dB, but that barely makes my peaks any higher.

Is this a topic better suited for the computer recording forum?

hippies · « **Reply #7 on:** May 22, 2003, 11:59:49 AM »

you need to set levels in the VX s/w. then SF will recieve a digi signal path. i mispoke earlier. certainly you should have more than 6db of gain to play with in the mixer you describe.

i've never used the VX, but isn't there a dialog box where you make your choices?... sample rate, input source, etc? when selecting analog input, i would think a level slider would then be provided. if this is done through the mixer, then fine. if you are getting an error message saying something about using windows volume control, then you don't have the proper soundcard selected within Windows.

yes, this prolly shoulda went in the Computer Recording, but we're here now, an you didn't know what the problem was to begin with...

no big deal...

we're here to help, no matter what forum ya throw it up in... hehe...

~S

JAH · « **Reply #8 on:** May 22, 2003, 12:48:10 PM »

Quote from: Joe w. on May 22, 2003, 11:19:26 AM

JAH....those are c1000's

doh!

my bad thought it was a typo. Sounds like Hippies has you in the right direction.

mirth · « **Reply #9 on:** May 22, 2003, 12:57:21 PM »

Quote from: hippies on May 22, 2003, 11:59:49 AM

you need to set levels in the VX s/w. then SF will recieve a digi signal path. i mispoke earlier. certainly you should have more than 6db of gain to play with in the mixer you describe.

i've never used the VX, but isn't there a dialog box where you make your choices?... sample rate, input source, etc? when selecting analog input, i would think a level slider would then be provided. if this is done through the mixer, then fine. if you are getting an error message saying something about using windows volume control, then you don't have the proper soundcard selected within Windows.

yes, this prolly shoulda went in the Computer Recording, but we're here now, an you didn't know what the problem was to begin with...

no big deal...

we're here to help, no matter what forum ya throw it up in... hehe...

~S

Yeah, the Analog In slider in the control panel for the VX gives me 12dB total (+/-6db) of gain that I can apply. I'm using the Wave driver as SoundForge doesn't support ASIO. In regards to selecting sample rate and bit depth, this is done in SoundForge when I make a new recording. Last night I tried both 24/48 and 16/44.1 with the same results. Moving the level for the analog input in the VX Control Panel also moves the slider in the generic Windows mixer for the card.

I don't get any error messages, SoundForge simply doesn't have any kind of internal fade controls - This is straight from Sonic Foundry to use the Windows mixer to control input levels.

I guess I wonder if I should play around with some other apps to see if that will fix (although I kinda doubt it) my problems.

hippies · « **Reply #10 on:** May 22, 2003, 10:46:40 PM »

ya need Wavelab, or Samplitude to try out. hit me privately, an i'll point ya in the right direction. you could also try CDWAV which is a free app for recording/ splitting .wav files. you may even have this on your machine already.

just for kicks, try the setup as i described above. allow the VX to do your A/D stage and feed the recording s/w a digi signal and see what happens then.

one other thing to check is make sure the mics don't have 'pads' which are turned on. you want to be running these wide open. throw in some new batteries if ya haven't done that.

peace

~S

mirth · « **Reply #11 on:** May 23, 2003, 12:03:47 AM »

Yeah, got CDWave.

AFAIK, Sound Forge is already receiving a digital signal. I'm running my mics into the XLR inputs on the card and letting the A/D of the VX feed to SF. I guess I don't know how I could supply a pre-digitized signal to my VX unless I had an external A/D.

The C1000s don't come with pads, although at this point I wish they did so I could turn 'em off.

I'll try the new batteries tomorrow, although I've got a brand new set of NiMH rechargables in them now... taken out when not in use, of course!

zhianosatch · « **Reply #12 on:** May 23, 2003, 12:07:19 AM »

Watch the memory on those NiMH batts... keep 'em chargied.

Kindguy · « **Reply #13 on:** May 23, 2003, 12:28:12 PM »

Quote

XLR inputs on the card and letting the A/D of the VX feed to SF

I've been looking into the VX lately & from what I'm told the AD is worse than a stock D8.

Kindguy · « **Reply #14 on:** May 23, 2003, 12:30:25 PM »

My 1st setup was C1000's >D8

I had very low levels. When I added some Hosa transformers it mad a world of diff.

hippies · « **Reply #15 on:** May 23, 2003, 05:47:27 PM »

Quote from: mirth on May 22, 2003, 12:57:21 PM

Quote from: hippies on May 22, 2003, 11:59:49 AM
you need to set levels in the VX s/w. then SF will recieve a digi signal path. i mispoke earlier. certainly you should have more than 6db of gain to play with in the mixer you describe.

i've never used the VX, but isn't there a dialog box where you make your choices?... sample rate, input source, etc? when selecting analog input, i would think a level slider would then be provided. if this is done through the mixer, then fine. if you are getting an error message saying something about using windows volume control, then you don't have the proper soundcard selected within Windows.

yes, this prolly shoulda went in the Computer Recording, but we're here now, an you didn't know what the problem was to begin with...

no big deal...

we're here to help, no matter what forum ya throw it up in... hehe...

~S

Yeah, the Analog In slider in the control panel for the VX gives me 12dB total (+/-6db) of gain that I can apply. I'm using the Wave driver as SoundForge doesn't support ASIO. In regards to selecting sample rate and bit depth, this is done in SoundForge when I make a new recording. Last night I tried both 24/48 and 16/44.1 with the same results. Moving the level for the analog input in the VX Control Panel also moves the slider in the generic Windows mixer for the card.

I don't get any error messages, SoundForge simply doesn't have any kind of internal fade controls - This is straight from Sonic Foundry to use the Windows mixer to control input levels.

I guess I wonder if I should play around with some other apps to see if that will fix (although I kinda doubt it) my problems.

if selecting a sample rate/ bit depth within SF, then SF IS NOT recieving a digi signal path. although i use neither of these devices/ Apps anymore, i know for a fact that one can utilize the VX A/D (which sux) or the SF software AD (which is better)... i just wanted you to try different configs to see what happens with each as a test...

~S

mirth · « **Reply #16 on:** May 23, 2003, 05:58:49 PM »

Aha. In that case, then I think I'd have to be using the ASIO drivers and a different app as Sound Forge doesn't do ASIO. At least, I think... not at home by my rig at the moment.

I've talked to a couple buddies since starting this thread who have used the VX's analog input in the past & they've confirmed the suckiness of its preamp stage. Seems like the universal answer I get is to pick up an external pre. :-/

I'll do some more poking around at home tonight & post results.

mirth · « **Reply #17 on:** May 27, 2003, 07:11:34 AM »

Scott,

Thought you'd be interested to know that my levels appear to be much more acceptable using WaveLab and ASIO versus Sound Forge and WDM.

Can't tell for sure, though. My machine keeps locking up shortly after I press record... Ah well, guess I need research that problem now.

hippies · « **Reply #18 on:** May 27, 2003, 09:55:19 AM »

d'oh!

mirth · « **Reply #19 on:** May 27, 2003, 11:17:18 AM »

Yeah, tell me about it... I don't know if my machine has enough horsepower to do 24/48 or if theres something else going on...

Guess I'll try 16/44.1 tonight and go from there.

RastaFish · « **Reply #20 on:** May 27, 2003, 02:52:31 PM »

When I was experiencing almost the same problem with my c1000's, I ended up getting a pair of line transformers. It did solve my problem...

RRobar · « **Reply #21 on:** May 27, 2003, 03:39:39 PM »

Transformers will definately fix teh problem with low levels. When I had the odler black c1000s I had a custom xlr>stereo mini cable made. and it worked great never had issues with low record levels after that. Friends had the silver ones and everyone had to run transformers.
Hope this helps.
Rob

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #22 on:** May 27, 2003, 04:12:40 PM »

somebody better get some transformers.......

bean

mirth · « **Reply #23 on:** May 27, 2003, 05:29:54 PM »

Thanks for all the hints guys, but I wonder about this whole transformer thing.... Aren't they supposed to be used to go from low impedance (mic) to high impedance (recording device - in my case happens to be a VX Pocket in my laptop). According to Digigram, the VX Pocket's inputs are +10 dBu/Ohm > 10 kOhm

Is this considered high or low impedance?

Also, when I use the ASIO driver versus the MME driver for the card, I get much better sound levels.