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Author Topic: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR  (Read 9094 times)

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Offline JasonSobel

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hey folks... to go along with my newly ordered pair of beyerdynamic CK 930 mic pair, I'd like to make myself a couple more pairs of "active" cables.  the remote cables that seperate the mic cap from the mic body aren't really "active", so I figure it will be fairly straight forward to make myself a couple more sets.  the remote cables that come with the mics are 3 meters (9.84 feet).  I was thinking that I would make two more sets of cables, a 5-foot set and a 15-foot set.

here's the issue that I'm running into.
the cables need to be 4-pin mini-XLR male female to 5-pin mini-XLR female.
ordering those connectors is no problem, as they are readily available.
For the connections, 4 independent conductors are needed - which got me thinking along the lines of star-quad cables, because there are already four conductors in the single cable.  (one of the pins on the 5-pin mini-XLR female is left unconnected).

but here's my problem:
according to the Switchcraft specs for the mini-XLR connectors (http://www.switchcraft.com/products/qg_assembly.html), the max diameter for the cable is 0.170 inches.

The Canare L-4E5C (the mini-star quad cable) has an outer diameter of 0.189 inches.  so it's too big to use with the mini-XLR connectors.

Similarly, the Mogami W2893 (star-quad mic cable) also has an outer diameter of 0.189 inches... again too big.

so, it looks like I have two options here:
Belden 1804a (silver-clad star-quad)
this has an outer diameter of 0.115 inches, so this will fit into a mini-XLR housing...
Markertek says that this is an AES/EBU digital cable, but a search though past postings here on taperssection indicate that others have successfully used this for mic cables... any input?
http://www.markertek.com/SearchProduct.asp?off=0&sort=prod&skuonly=0&search=1804a&pagesize=0
also, markertek only sells this 500-foot rolls.  Anyone know where I could get this by the foot?

another option is to get this:
Canare L-4E3-2P.
this is a two-channel snake, with two sets of star-quads inside.  not too long ago, I made a stereo cable using the L-4E3-2P (see http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,111443.0/all.html).  the outer diameter of each star-quad here is 0.134 inches, so it would fit inside a mini-XLR housing...  however, I'd have to completely take apart the two channel snake to separate the individual star-quad channels.

so, it looks like those are the two options

Belden 1804a vs Canare L-4E3-2P.
one is silver-clad copper, the other is straight copper.
one is supposedly an AES digital cable, while the other is designed as a mic cable.

Are there other options?  Any opinions?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 07:30:47 PM by JasonSobel »

Offline darktrain

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2009, 07:38:56 PM »
i know that you can order those mini xlr's for wider cables , at markertek the part # for the 5pin mini is TA5f-LX or TA5M-LX(th lx is for wider cables, basically no boot i believe) also available in 4pin

Offline JasonSobel

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2009, 09:14:49 PM »
actually, the 0.170 inches max cable diameter that I quoted in my initial post is for the version without the boot.  on the assembly instructions page (http://www.switchcraft.com/products/qg_assembly.html), it says that the version without the bushing should be used if the cable is larger than 0.115 inches, but the max is still 0.170 inches.

on the other hand, maybe I can just go ahead and use the regular Canare mini-starquad (Canare L-4E5C)... even though it is 0.189 inches, that's only 0.019 inches larger than it should be, which is 0.4826 millimeters.  less than half a millimeter larger than the "max" will probably fit into the housing, right?

any other thoughts?

Offline darktrain

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2009, 09:59:26 PM »
i know for some of the custom stuff i have done i dremeled out the back of the housing and i would guess it would be fine for you

Offline live2496

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2009, 10:06:27 PM »
Jason,
I would try it. 19/1000th of an inch isn't much. You could always file down the inside of the connector with a round file if you have to make it work. Hardware stores will have them or Sears should have them where they sell chain saws.

edit: yeah or  dremel tool if you have one.

A tight fit is probably better anyway.

Gordon
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Offline esteyes1

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2009, 03:33:29 AM »
before they started making the large collet version, i used to take a uni-bit and drill from the back first and then when i got the size correct, i would come back from the other side to clean up my cut. full size canare fits that way.

i bet if you got some 100% food grade silicon spray, you could get that .189 od cable to squish thru.

neil

Offline ghellquist

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2009, 04:30:11 AM »
AES cables work perfectly for sound. In fact, the AES specification is simply a "really good" microphone cable, held to tight specs to allow the very high bandwidth digital signals to travel long distances (1000 feet).

So go ahead with the AES cable.

Similarily, you can run AES on just about any mic cable. I should now, does it all the time. But not for any longer cable runs.

// Gunnar

Offline JasonSobel

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2009, 07:49:26 AM »
thanks for the advice everyone.

I would try it. 19/1000th of an inch isn't much. You could always file down the inside of the connector with a round file if you have to make it work. Hardware stores will have them or Sears should have them where they sell chain saws.

edit: yeah or  dremel tool if you have one.

after my initial post, as I was thinking about the size differences, I was thinking that it would work.  I already have a round, tapered file, and I imagine that it wouldn't take long to file off that amount anyway.

also good to know that there's no problem to use an "AES cable" as a mic cable...

so now, the only realy question is whether to use sliver-clad copper or straight up copper.  In the past, I've always been happy with the canare star-quad, so my initial reaction is to stick with what works and sounds good to me.  On the other hand, I've never really tried silver-clad.  As I said in the first post, markertek only sells the Belden 1804a in 500-ft rolls.  anyone know a good place to buy that online by the foot?  (if not, I guess that answers the question for me and I'll go with the Canare L-4E5C).

Thanks,
Jason

Offline thegreatgumbino

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2009, 08:51:49 AM »
So are these mics a reality now?  Any recordings available?
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Offline JasonSobel

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2009, 08:58:58 AM »
So are these mics a reality now?  Any recordings available?

the CK 930 (and CK 950 supercards) are a reality.  I haven't heard any recordings, but it's supposed to be the same caps as the MC 930 full body mics, so I am assuming that they will sound very very similar, if not the same.  My pair should be here in a few days.  and hopefully soon I'll run them, along with a few comps (I've got a CK 930 > V3 vs MG m200 > V3 comp planned already).

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2009, 10:18:20 AM »
Jason:

I used the Belden 1804a cable to make a set of active cables to go between mini XLRs on both ends.  As far as size, the size of the cable worked out fine.  The biggest challenge of course is soldering connections in such a small place and then not having any excess solder cause shorts, so use good soldering techniques, sharp tips and only a minimal amount of solder to make your connections and you'll be fine.

Good luck!

Offline JasonSobel

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2009, 10:24:40 AM »
Jason:

I used the Belden 1804a cable to make a set of active cables to go between mini XLRs on both ends.  As far as size, the size of the cable worked out fine.  The biggest challenge of course is soldering connections in such a small place and then not having any excess solder cause shorts, so use good soldering techniques, sharp tips and only a minimal amount of solder to make your connections and you'll be fine.

Good luck!

Good to hear a real-world example.  Where did you get the 1804a cable?  And indeed, I know that the biggest challenge will be the small connector size.  and they squeezed in four pins!  I've gotten better at soldering the connections on normal sized XLR's, but I haven't yet really attempted the mini-XLR.  If it doesn't go well, I may have to contact one of our resident cable makers on the board to bail me out.  But I'm cautiously optimistic that I'll be able to get it done :)

Offline Todd R

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2009, 10:25:34 AM »
As I said in the first post, markertek only sells the Belden 1804a in 500-ft rolls.  anyone know a good place to buy that online by the foot? 

Not by the foot, but Full Compass sells 100' lengths of 1804a for a pretty good price ($108).  Only trouble is it's a special order item, so it might take awhile to arrive.
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Offline darktrain

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2009, 10:36:18 AM »
yes there is not much room in those 5 pin mini xlr's, i always fill that area up with hot glue after i have made the solder points and determined them good just to prevent any movement or issues down the road

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2009, 01:00:19 PM »
I don't remember where I bought it, but I bought a 100 foot length for around $120 or so.  If Full Compass doesn't have it in stock, I'm sure that there are places 'out there' that would have it available in 100 foot lengths.  Just do a generic enough websearch and you'll find it...I'm thinking I ordered from a generic electronics supply shop...of which there are like a zillion on the web.

Incidently, you might think that 100 feet is something you don't need.  I was reluctant but when I couldn't locate the 20foot length that I needed I ended up buying the whole 100ft length.  Then once I had that 100 foot roll, I found it handy to have available and I went through the entire length in less than a year, although I do believe that I sold 30 feet or so to someone on the board.   Turns out that Belden 1804a is good stuff for what we do!

Offline goodcooker

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2009, 10:01:39 PM »
I made several mic cables and interconnects with 1804a. I highly recommend it.

Newark is more expensive than Full Compass but they have it in stock in 100 ft rolls and they ship fast.

http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=500003+1000065&Ntk=gensearch_001&Ntt=1804a&Ntx=

when you strip the conductors be extra careful, it's easy to lose half the strands, then after you twist it up snip a little bit off the end before you tin it, that helped me to keep stray strands from shorting out between the solder cups

Careful with the glue....too much and the locking mechanism gets stuck.
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Offline BayTaynt3d

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2009, 11:07:31 PM »
Pics or it didn't happen. LOL.

Seriously, I'd like to see the fruits of this labor...
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Offline JasonSobel

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2009, 08:27:37 AM »
lots of good info in this thread... thanks everyone :)

I'd like to see the fruits of this labor...

I'll probably place the order today for the cable and mini XLR's.  the mics aren't even here yet (I'm expecting them to be delivered tomorrow), and I'd like to take a look at the stock 10ft cables that come with them and verify that there is no active electronics in them with my own eyes before I go ahead and make a couple other pairs.  and the next few weekends are already booked up, so it might be a little while before I find the time to sit down and make these cables.  But when I do, I'll take some pictures and document the process :)

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2009, 12:03:49 PM »
FWIW, when I made 'actives' for the MBHO cables (no actual active electronics in MBHO cables) I just mimic'ed the wire routing 'from' and 'to' between each mini-XLR pin on the stock cable (used a continuity tester), rather than following any pre-fab or prescription routing scheme.  I did that just in case there might have been a custom wiring scheme for the MBHO's mini-XLRs.  Plus it was just easier for me to do it that way than trying to see (with my lousy eyesight) which pins inside that tiny little connector are designated on the plastic sheaths as being pin 1, 2, 3, and 4.

Probably insulting your intelligence by telling you this, but ... (just trying to pass along as many 'lessons' that seemed worthwhile as possible.)

Offline JasonSobel

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2009, 12:17:23 PM »
thanks for the tip.  I have a continuity tester, and that sounds like a good idea, especially because its 4-pin male to 5-pin female, it seems like I want to triple-check that I have it all connected correctly :)

and the mics just got delivered, they're sitting on my desk now.  So when I get home this evening, I can inspect the stock "active" cables closely.

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Re: looking for small diameter 4-conductor (star-quad) cable for mini-XLR
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2009, 01:24:55 PM »
and the mics just got delivered, they're sitting on my desk now.  So when I get home this evening, I can inspect the stock "active" cables closely.

Sounds like you get all your stuff delivered to you at work too.  Our mailroom 'guy' knows that I'm into electronics of some sort because he's forever bringing me boxes of goodies...and of course it's never from a 'real' company, such that he'd somehow miscontrue that maybe once in awhile a box that I receive is actually work-related!!!

 

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