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Author Topic: AES (XLRF) to coaxial (RCA or 1.8") cable  (Read 10256 times)

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Offline SClassical

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AES (XLRF) to coaxial (RCA or 1.8") cable
« on: December 05, 2010, 02:22:56 AM »
Can someone tell me what type of cable is used if I want to make one of this:

http://www.mercenary.com/reauaexspr1.html

I know AES impedance is 110 Ohm, SPDIF is 75 Ohm. So what kind of cable would be appropriate?

Also how would I wire the 2 connectors if one side is balance and the other un-balance?

Thanks a lot
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 01:21:20 AM by scyue »
Mics: DPA3552 kit/DPA3521 kit/DPA SMK4081 kit/DPA SMK4060 kit/Schoeps 2X MK21, 2X MK22 and 2X MK4v and 2X Schoeps CCM2S
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Offline SClassical

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Re: AES (XLRF) to SPDIF (RCA) cable
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2010, 06:16:57 PM »
Oh so complicated...Anyone here can make a this cable for me? The thing is I want one with mini-XLR Female to RCA (I can provide you with the cable and connectors but I don't have the resistors or the confidence to make it).
Mics: DPA3552 kit/DPA3521 kit/DPA SMK4081 kit/DPA SMK4060 kit/Schoeps 2X MK21, 2X MK22 and 2X MK4v and 2X Schoeps CCM2S
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Offline bhadella

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Re: AES (XLRF) to SPDIF (RCA) cable
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2010, 08:14:49 PM »
What items you planning on connecting?   I don't know of any items that have AES output via a mini xlr.   Are you looking to use the mini xlr outputs on the 722?   The 722 mini xlr outputs are analog signals.   AES output on the 722 is via a bnc connector.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 08:18:17 PM by bhadella »
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Offline JasonSobel

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Re: AES (XLRF) to SPDIF (RCA) cable
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2010, 08:33:29 PM »
What items you planning on connecting?   I don't know of any items that have AES output via a mini xlr.   Are you looking to use the mini xlr outputs on the 722?   The 722 mini xlr outputs are analog signals.   AES output on the 722 is via a bnc connector.

My guess is that Simon is looking to use the AES output from his new Sonosax SX-M32.  According to the manual, the AES output is via mini-XLR.
http://www.sonosax.ch/mixers/sxm32/sx-m32-umeng.pdf

Another way to go AES to S/PDIF is to use an impedance transformer.  Like the BCJ-XJ-TRB 110 Ohm to 75 Ohm Digital Audio Impedance.  I used to use this with my V3.
http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=25

however, to use it, you would need an AES cable (in your case mini-XLR to XLR), and then the impedance transformer, and then a S/PDIF cable (either BNC to RCA, or I always just kept a BNC-to-RCA adapter connected the whole time, which allowed me to use any RCA to RCA S/PDIF cable.

While that solution will work great, it is bulkier than mshilarious's suggestion to put resistors in the XLR end.  of course, I don't know if that is still a viable option, because while it fits into a regular sized XLR connector, it may or may not fit into a mini-XLR connector.

Lastly, you could just ignore the impedance difference, and get a mini-XLR to RCA cable made, and not use the impedance transformer, not mshilarious's solution.  While this is not ideal because of the impedance mis-match, for short cable runs (i.e. 1 to 2 feet), it probably won't make any difference.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 08:37:09 PM by JasonSobel »

Offline SClassical

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Re: AES (XLRF) to SPDIF (RCA) cable
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2010, 10:03:52 PM »
Yes it's for my Sonosax which has a AES mini-XLR.

Jason, distance between the mixer/AD converter to the recorder is only a few inches away so if I make a cable about 6 inches long  without an Impedance Transformer it will be okay? What exactly will happen with the audio signal if there is no transformer used in a long run cable? Even though the recorder and mixer/AD converter is only a few inches away maybe I should play safe and get a transformer?? Thanks!
Mics: DPA3552 kit/DPA3521 kit/DPA SMK4081 kit/DPA SMK4060 kit/Schoeps 2X MK21, 2X MK22 and 2X MK4v and 2X Schoeps CCM2S
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Offline andromedanwarmachine

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Re: AES (XLRF) to SPDIF (RCA) cable
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2010, 09:08:16 AM »
I did see a schematic for an active circuit for this once in the back of a Denon Pro MD manual from about '97- but you can just unbalance it and it'll work fine.

Over a short distance.

Will the impedance mismatch even be noticed on a very short run? If the numbers are getting through then the information will be there. I think with impedance and digital, the drivers in the gear might not like it but if it works, it works!!

I drive a few pieces of gear with jump-cables like this and it's no problem...

JimP
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Offline SClassical

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Re: AES (XLRF) to SPDIF (1/8") cable
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2010, 09:40:44 PM »
Thanks a lot for your replies...
There is another diagram here which is different from Fig 3 from http://www.rane.com/note149.html.

This is the diagram I found:
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2815/orivoltagedivider.jpg

from this website:
http://www.lynxstudio.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2760

Can you tell me why the diagram above is different? Is it because  rane.com has a 12dB pad whereas the one above doesn't? Is a AES signal always 12dB hotter than a coaxial signal?

Thanks a lot and I appreciate your help.
Mics: DPA3552 kit/DPA3521 kit/DPA SMK4081 kit/DPA SMK4060 kit/Schoeps 2X MK21, 2X MK22 and 2X MK4v and 2X Schoeps CCM2S
Mixers/preamps: Sonosax SX-M32/Sonosax SX-M2 LS/Grace Design V3/DPA MMA6000/Millennia HV-32P
Recorders: SD722/PCM-D50/MT2
Playback: Grace m903 - Sennheiser HD650 / Bowers & Wilkins Nautilus 805s

Offline iluvatar

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Re: AES (XLRF) to SPDIF (RCA) cable
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2011, 09:47:39 PM »
Can someone tell me what type of cable is used if I want to make one of this:

http://www.mercenary.com/reauaexspr1.html

I know AES impedance is 110 Ohm, SPDIF is 75 Ohm. So what kind of cable would be appropriate?

Also how would I wire the 2 connectors if one side is balance and the other un-balance?

Thanks a lot

IIRC, only 2 pins on the XLR end are connected. Just because AES uses an XLR connector, don't assume that it's "balanced" in the same way that a regular mic/line signal is "balanced." It's not.

As far as what wire is used, I'll try to check on this tomorrow when I get into the office. Whatever it is, it's nothing fancy - any 75 ohm cable that works for spdif will work for this. But in case I forget to get back here, send me an e-mail at custserv@mercenary.com.

If you need to go longer than this, we sell 100ohm-75ohm transformers with bnc connectors and bnc-rca adapters: http://www.mercenary.com/neditr.html

-Dan.
Dan Costello
Minister of Truth - Mercenary Audio
Sound Designer / Recordist - Bellyacres Productions

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Re: AES (XLRF) to SPDIF (RCA) cable
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2011, 12:04:13 AM »
What items you planning on connecting?   I don't know of any items that have AES output via a mini xlr.   Are you looking to use the mini xlr outputs on the 722?   The 722 mini xlr outputs are analog signals.   AES output on the 722 is via a bnc connector.

My guess is that Simon is looking to use the AES output from his new Sonosax SX-M32.  According to the manual, the AES output is via mini-XLR.
http://www.sonosax.ch/mixers/sxm32/sx-m32-umeng.pdf

Another way to go AES to S/PDIF is to use an impedance transformer.  Like the BCJ-XJ-TRB 110 Ohm to 75 Ohm Digital Audio Impedance.  I used to use this with my V3.
http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=25

however, to use it, you would need an AES cable (in your case mini-XLR to XLR), and then the impedance transformer, and then a S/PDIF cable (either BNC to RCA, or I always just kept a BNC-to-RCA adapter connected the whole time, which allowed me to use any RCA to RCA S/PDIF cable.

While that solution will work great, it is bulkier than mshilarious's suggestion to put resistors in the XLR end.  of course, I don't know if that is still a viable option, because while it fits into a regular sized XLR connector, it may or may not fit into a mini-XLR connector.

Lastly, you could just ignore the impedance difference, and get a mini-XLR to RCA cable made, and not use the impedance transformer, not mshilarious's solution.  While this is not ideal because of the impedance mis-match, for short cable runs (i.e. 1 to 2 feet), it probably won't make any difference.

I'm surprised Jason didn't mention the Hosa product:  http://www.hosatech.com/product/339824/CDL-313/_/Digital_Audio_Interface,_SPDIF_Coax_to_AESEBU

BTW, if this product is anything like the Hosa ODL-276 (TOSLINK>SPDIF), then it is DC powered.  Field use is possible...

Terry

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Re: AES (XLRF) to SPDIF (RCA) cable
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2011, 12:59:58 AM »
CDL-313's AC adaptor supplies 9VDC @100mA.....actual current draw is probably less.  You could power it with a 9VDC Lion DVD battery.......
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Offline SClassical

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Re: AES (XLRF) to coaxial (RCA or 1/8") cable
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2011, 01:19:44 AM »
Actually I need it as portable as possible so now I'm thinking of getting either this:

http://store.haveinc.com/p-49467-canare-imp-transfrmr-xlrj-bnc-jack.aspx

or

http://store.haveinc.com/p-49466-canare-impedance-transformer-xlrf-bnc-jack-10db.aspx

The 2nd one has a 10dB pad...

I read from the above that the signal from the preamp/mixer (AES, XLR3) coming out is hot so do I need to buy the one with the 10dB pad?

FYI...I'm planning to connect my SX-M32 digitally to my PDAudio card (into a palm PC).
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 01:22:10 AM by scyue »
Mics: DPA3552 kit/DPA3521 kit/DPA SMK4081 kit/DPA SMK4060 kit/Schoeps 2X MK21, 2X MK22 and 2X MK4v and 2X Schoeps CCM2S
Mixers/preamps: Sonosax SX-M32/Sonosax SX-M2 LS/Grace Design V3/DPA MMA6000/Millennia HV-32P
Recorders: SD722/PCM-D50/MT2
Playback: Grace m903 - Sennheiser HD650 / Bowers & Wilkins Nautilus 805s

Offline iluvatar

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Re: AES (XLRF) to SPDIF (RCA) cable
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2011, 11:29:18 AM »
IIRC, only 2 pins on the XLR end are connected. Just because AES uses an XLR connector, don't assume that it's "balanced" in the same way that a regular mic/line signal is "balanced." It's not.


That's not correct, or at least it should not be correct in a proper AES3 (not AES3id) implementation.  Read the Rane note.  Or look at a transceiver datasheet, like CS8406/CS8416--they have differential I/O.

Interesting. Ya learn something new every day. I should have known that, though, since regular AES lines use 3 conductors.

FYI: the cables we sell are made from 75 ohm Mogami coax wire, model W2964.

-Dan.

Dan Costello
Minister of Truth - Mercenary Audio
Sound Designer / Recordist - Bellyacres Productions

Offline RichT

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Re: AES (XLRF) to coaxial (RCA or 1.8") cable
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2011, 03:48:57 PM »
Just checking how you solved this in the end, scyue- I've been trying this (including using a transformer) and had no luck getting it to lock (SX-M32 to Edirol R-44, although it doesn't work on my soundcard either, which will take AES signals on the SPDIF in)

Offline SClassical

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Re: AES (XLRF) to coaxial (RCA or 1.8") cable
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2011, 11:31:38 PM »
Actually I haven't used the digital out yet...been too lazy recently so been using it as a preamp/mixer only. Sonosax sent me instructions how to do the jumpers which looks sort of easy...You can even add an external switch so that you can change it to AES and SPDIF whenever you want..So when I have time I will do a MOD on it..
Mics: DPA3552 kit/DPA3521 kit/DPA SMK4081 kit/DPA SMK4060 kit/Schoeps 2X MK21, 2X MK22 and 2X MK4v and 2X Schoeps CCM2S
Mixers/preamps: Sonosax SX-M32/Sonosax SX-M2 LS/Grace Design V3/DPA MMA6000/Millennia HV-32P
Recorders: SD722/PCM-D50/MT2
Playback: Grace m903 - Sennheiser HD650 / Bowers & Wilkins Nautilus 805s

 

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