Topic: Upgrade advice

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Non-amplified piano, along with classical guitar, are among the most difficult sources to record from the audience.

A great result will require a Lot of quiet gain, quiet mics, and being very close.  I've used 55 dB of gain recording classical guitar from the front row with Schoeps.  At those high gain levels, directional mics are important for their ability to reject other noises in the room.  Most smaller mics have fairly high self-noise when compared to phantom powered mics.

I haven't used Chris' pre-amps, but I think that is probably your best option.  It will have excellent resale value, should you decide to go in a different direction.  The m10's lower noise would be an improvement vs. running direct into the r09, but I don't see it solving the big picture issues.

As others have said, mics are also very important.  The mic pattern you run is also really important.

Fwiw, I went from a 722 to an r09.  I always run with great pre-amps, and schoeps, Gefells or DPAs. I lost a bit of detail with the r09 vs. the 722, but not that much.  The m10 might be a slight improvement, but there is no way I'd give up running a great pre-amp (especially on quiet sources).

[ninjadave]

to continue this thread with a slightly more specific quesiton...i'm in the same boat, having recorded with R9 and Tascam DR-2d and CAFS omni, CA-14, AT853, AT933 (all cards) in my past. looking to move to a set of beyers ck930 and or nevatons mce400s. i tape mostly loud classic rock gigs, rush, styx, MAC, similar....large arenas or sheds...i also tape acoustic music, almost exclusively the indigo girls, both with and without the band (in 2000 seat theaters mostly or small sheds and such) and also AmyRay solo, which she mostly playes small clubs/bar type venues. i've used mics on glasses and last few years, used a hat, current is a nice kangol with mesh front, mounting mics on the front lid (wearing it normally), cable out the back and the mics usually pointing a little to the outside, like rabbit ears at a angle, but they are pretty close together, probably 4-5 inches apart at the most.

i mostly stack tape, usually trying to set up in front of the right or left stack in full line to get maximum sound pressure and clarity (as opposed to close and middle), distance usually in front of the board, rows 15-25 genearlly....i've pulled good shows and avg shows from similar spots, and of course avg shows with less than optimal seats (sometimes too close and middle). i've pulled an incredible show at the old mellon arena, i was 3/4 way back in the fourth row off the floor and its probably the best show i've ever pulled, fleetwood mac's opening gig in 09'. when i got my seats, i'm thinking this gig is going to blow sound wise, the gig sounded amazing in the arena (soundman?) and it translated very well to the recorder. i guess the soundman can't be controlled and its possible some gigs will NEVER sound good with bad sound to begin with....however...its not all that bad.....here are some of the shows up on dime with samples.

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?returnto=%2Faccount-cp.php&id=240479
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?returnto=%2Faccount-cp.php&id=323815

i'm really at a point that i'm willing to spend some cash to get a better rig if the results are going to be there. i've listened to stack shows of rush and similar bands with schoeps and other high end mics, they are noticiably better, with cleaner bass and highs (although i don't care for the overall sound of schoeps or the price!! *ducking* - heh), but you know what i mean. i've got some rush gigs coming in april, i have pretty good stack seats (17th, 25th and 30th row for each) and i want good pulls. maybe i should be satisfied with what i've done but i know i can do better and i'm slightly worried that is could be mic position, etc. but stealth taping is pretty limited. any thoughts on this i would appreciate. i don't tape a lot of shows really, most of the shows i do attend i do tape however, rarely excepted but when i do tape and take the effort, i want it to be worth it otherwise, i'll just enjoy the dam show and dance around instead.

my proposed future rig is beyers ck930>bodies>PMD661 oade CM and or the nevatons mce400 with same brick and maybe moving to the tinybox 2 (no bodies) with R9 (HR) or tascam DR-2d. my worry about this is getting all the gear in, cables, mic bodies, possible patch cables and a bigger recorder, i have ideas on this and i think i can do it, its just is it all going to pay off. would appreciate some candid thoughts.....i am nearly out of time, need to make a decision this week so i have all the parts by early april....thanks everyone.

[acidjack]

If you can run the beyers with bodies OK for lowpro work then I think beyers>661 is the best thing in your price range that can be bought now. If you aren't a fan of the mk4, then the best thing after the Beyers is DPA 402x which will be more like $2300 used (what I use, although I don't stealth much).  In omni mics you've also got the Nevatons and the DPA 4061 (more suitable for stack taping loud rock).  The 4061s and the Countryman B3 (which are much less expensive) have the advantage of that they can be "chopped" to a stereo miniplug and run off of an inexpensive Church Audio pre (the pre + chopping fee will be about $180).  So the first question is, do you want omnis or cards?  If you want omnis you have a much shorter route since you can just buy some mics to go with the gear you have now (unless you get the Nevatons, which require P48). Personally, unless you're set on the Nevaton sound (which I do hear is fantastic) I'd consider the DPA 4061 or Countryman B3 instead solely b/c they don't need P48.  Some folks have had success running those mics off the plug in power of their decks directly, though I would probably not try that for stack taping rock.

If you had a bit more time, supposedly there will be an AKG ck6x caps>tinybox> rig coming soon from mshilarious, a member of this board.  He knows more about the timing of that than I do.  Supposedly he can also work a solution with the Beyer ck930 caps and the tinybox without bodies.   

If I did mostly stealth, I'd probably run an Oade Mod 661 and my DPAs.  I think the 661 is a good choice as long as you think the 661 will be easy enough to get into the shows you want to go to.  Just consider the form factor carefully, as it's a good bit bigger than your R-09.  I run the Denecke PS/2>M10 for low profile situations and for very-low-profile either the Audix 1280s with Church cables or the DPA 4061.  I say I'd go with the 661 because it's all in one and sounds better probably, but OTOH if you keep your small deck you can preserve flexibility by getting different pres and BBs for your needs; for example, an Aerco MP-2 ($700 new) is the smallest P48 pre and is incredible sounding; you could run that for some shows, and for REALLY stealth shows, something smaller.

Otherwise, you could just keep your R-09 and get a VERY basic P48 box like the denecke PS/2, which is phantom power only (no amplification, meaning you use the recorder's pre) and run that with the beyers or any other P48 mic like the nevatons. it's nothing fancy, but it sounds fine.  Then you could eventually get an AKG>tinybox setup when that rolls out.

All that said, if you mostly stack tape and are set on the Nevatons they are great mics from what I've heard, comparable to the DPA 4061, and there are some in the YS right now for less than $400.  You could get those bad boys and a PS/2 for a total of under $500 and be ready to roll.

[kinglerxst]

>any thoughts on this i would appreciate

AT Sub-Cardioid!!!