Topic: Advice on multitrack recording (up to 16 channels)?

[slowburn]

So the venue where I work finally got a mixing desk where I should be able to do multitrack recordings.

They will now use this mixer

http://www.allen-heath.com/ahproducts/zed-r16/

Hey, it's even called a 16 channel firewire recording mixer. Sounds promising to me.

It was bought used for a great price to be used as a live mixing desk for the two to four shows we do most weeks. Having everything from full rockshows to folkmusic and jazz. Pretty much anything that's good. And sometimes things that's not as well. Full capacity is about 150 standing but it's often at least partially seated.

Anyway, the guy who runs sound for 90% of the shows is somewhat interested in recording but like me has little to no actual experience with live multitrack recordings. We're not exactly computer gurus either. I use Audition to do some editing of my matrix recordings etc but that about my knowledge of recording software and I own no laptop. I'm not an Apple guy so prefer to avoid that if possible.

We will be able to install and use whatever we want as the owner couldn't care less what we do as long as it doesn't interfere with the shows. We will have to pay for any recording gear ourselves though.

So the mixer has Firewire and ADAT outs. I know both systems are getting up in age but there shouldn't be too much trouble finding things that work with either. It's more a make a decision and figure out what to get situation. It does not have direct analog outputs for each track.

So really what I'm trying to figure out if there are any distinct advantages to using either Firewire or ADAT. Either economical, useablility, quality or other. I've done some googling and will do some more but if anyone has tips or warnings I would be grateful for any comments on what to look for.

Firewire or ADAT? I want to do at least 24/48 on up to 16 channels which doesn't seem to be a problem for either connections. Whatever we get will be permanently placed and connected to the mixer so portability is not really an issue. I'ld obviously want to keep cost down. If possible under say 500 dollars or so but not a set maximum. No problem looking for used stuff. There seems to be rather inexpensive Alesis ADATs used all over? And a used laptop with firewire shouldn't cost much either?

And before this ends up like a thread debating the merits of multitracking. I'm fully aware of how time consuming the mixing etc would be for each show. I only intend to use it for the occasional show that I really care about and continue with regular stereo board + mics matrixes for most shows.

Thanks.

[Life In Rewind]

Doesn't ADAT require you transfer the tracks from the tape back to the computer for mixdown?

Seems like you've already got 'em there with Firewire...

And since you don't need to be portable - you can always add a Firewire card to an existing PC.

The pool of used laptops with Firewire might be an aging lot.

[slowburn]

That's kinda how I been thinking too.

The problem with a stationary pc though is not so much the pc itself as having an extra monitor and keyboard taking up space. Also I'm not sure how much time the soundguy would have to deal with a mice and software etc during the show. ADATs seems like an easier way to do the actual recording for someone not computer savy but I don't really know.

Also, while googling Alesis seemed to imply that their filesystem wasn't limited to the 2GB of most computer systems. Are there any drawbacks of doing 16 tracks of 24/48 in regular waves on computer software. Will I get a ton of 5 minute (or whatever that comes out to) files when doing a 2 hour show? Again never really ventured into that territory before.

[Life In Rewind]

That's kinda how I been thinking too.

The problem with a stationary pc though is not so much the pc itself as having an extra monitor and keyboard taking up space. Also I'm not sure how much time the soundguy would have to deal with a mice and software etc during the show. ADATs seems like an easier way to do the actual recording for someone not computer savy but I don't really know.

Also, while googling Alesis seemed to imply that their filesystem wasn't limited to the 2GB of most computer systems. Are there any drawbacks of doing 16 tracks of 24/48 in regular waves on computer software. Will I get a ton of 5 minute (or whatever that comes out to) files when doing a 2 hour show? Again never really ventured into that territory before.

In general, you get a bunch of mono files.(as many channels as you record)

So an hour is about 500mb at 24/48.

Consider the space taken up by - 2 - ADAT machines needed for 16 tracks...tapes...optical cables.

[hoserama]

You could get a Cymatic LR16 and two 8 channel TRS snakes, and record directly off the inserts. That's assuming the sound guy isn't using any outboard effects, but you could always run a splitter. That'd be something small and simple, while capturing everything. Adds another A/D step though, but no different than how most folks generally record multitracks.

http://www.cymaticaudio.com/products/live-recorder-lr16

Basically need the LR16 + TRS snake + power supply + USB hard drive. Could sit off side of the board or wherever and record without a hitch. I have one (although I've basically retired it since upgrading to the uTrack24), so feel free to fire off questions on it if you decide to go that route.

Beyond that--it'd look like a laptop with a firewire input would be best alternative solution. Use Reaper (free) or any other DAW, create a saved template with proper i/o routing, and re-use that for every show.

[yousef]

I'd go for a second hand Alesis HD24 and use the free HD24 Tools program to transfer to your PC. Just pull the caddy out and take it home at the end of the show. There are some dedicated docking systems to connect the drive to your computer but they've all been discontinued  and can be pricey. We use a generic drive enclosure instead (and also use an SSD in the HD24 rather than a hard drive.) Definitely use Reaper to mix and edit - dead easy to use and much less reasource-hungry than Audition.

I don't like Firewire - very few laptops seem to have it nowadays and even when they do there seem to be all sorts of chipset compatibility issues.

An added benefit with a HD24 is the fact that it behaves like a traditional recorder: you hit record and it records - no messing about making sure your soundcard is setup properly, no panicking about other programs hogging resources, no unexpected random crashes...

It's probably a bit cumbersome in these days of digital desks with the ability to dump everything to a flash drive but for your situation (and for anyone who needs to be ready for all manner of digital and traditional desks), I don't think it can be beaten at today's prices.

[2manyrocks]

I had to find a laptop to record with a focusrite firewire interface a couple of years ago.  the newer PC laptops didn't seem to have firewire or a slot for a firewire card.  ended up with a HP 6910p off ebay for under $150 and then had to buy a plug in firewire card.  The 6910p has a built in firewire, but the chipset in it was not compatible with the fosusrite. Seems like there is a particular Texas Instruments chipset that was needed, and that was available via a plug in card.  Newer laptops don't seem to have the plug in slots, either, at least at an affordable price.

Ran Reaper on it with no problems.

If you're going to use firewire, you will need to carefully research what chipset plays nicely with the Zed. 

[Life In Rewind]

Here's the list of FireWire cards that should work

http://allen-heath.helpserve.com/Knowledgebase/Article/View/226/33/zed-r16-firewire-chipset-compatibility

The HD24 suggestion isn't a bad idea - the ZED has the proper ADAT Opitical I/O - but used HD24s are still bringing close to 400 bucks.

I'd still side with a smaller form factor PC and small monitor...keep in mind you don't need a kick ass PC to serve as the recorder. (editing is a different story!)

I've run 32 channels on a 2 ghz Core 2 Duo with 3 GB RAM...if you have your templates setup correctly - all you have to do is hit record - and turn off the monitor.

Forget about laptops - probably much easier to get into Firewire on a machine you can drop a card into.

[opsopcopolis]

^ I agree with that. Go with a tower and hide it somewhere in the rack. While FireWire may not be the way of the future that will be wayyy more convenient than running actual ADAT machines.  Recording to a computer these is very easy.  Could just grab cubase and use that

[stevetoney]

...OR...you could take a far less work and cost intense route of recording multi-track and just have your sound guy send you a good mix and matrix it together with a pair of well placed AUD mics.   Just make sure you're there for soundcheck and have your sound guy give you your own pair of outputs that are mixed specifically for you on a pair of outputs and then combine those in post.  When the show starts, have your headphones ready and listen directly to the SBD pair and if anything's off, tell him what to adjust or if he doesn't mind monitoring your mix himself that'd be even better.
 

[Life In Rewind]

You could also just print out a picture of any mulitracking rig - and tape it up next to the soundboard...

It will produce just as many finished recordings...

(Taper humor...or an attempt.)

[stevetoney]

You could also just print out a picture of any mulitracking rig - and tape it up next to the soundboard...

It will produce just as many finished recordings...

(Taper humor...or an attempt.)

Matter of opinion.  I'd put my best recordings done with this 'simple method' up against anything that's out there and in many cases they sound IMHO better since the multi-track is oftentimes a sterile over-or-under processed mess.  The LivePhish recordings for awhile after Languedoc stopped doing them are a great example.

Anyway, don't mean to derail the thread.  Just thought I'd post the thought since cost seems to be a factor for the OP.

[Life In Rewind]

You could also just print out a picture of any mulitracking rig - and tape it up next to the soundboard...

It will produce just as many finished recordings...

(Taper humor...or an attempt.)

Matter of opinion.  I'd put my best recordings done with this 'simple method' up against anything that's out there and in many cases they sound IMHO better since the multi-track is oftentimes a sterile over-or-under processed mess.  The LivePhish recordings for awhile after Languedoc stopped doing them are a great example.

Anyway, don't mean to derail the thread.  Just thought I'd post the thought since cost seems to be a factor for the OP.

No - I totally agree! - It took me only a few attempts at multitracking to give up! Just too much effort...(I know the OP doesn't want to discuss this)

Back to the classic "taper matrix" SBD+AUD!!! - those recordings come out as good, or better...plus they get DONE!

Nothing worse than trying to re-assemble 27 channels of pre-fader mix!!! Got those drums sounding right???...sure.....!!!!

[slowburn]

Thanks for the replies. Keep them coming if you feel you have anything to contribute. Cause like I suspected there's a lot of different opinions on this.

First to clearify.

Yes I'm there for the soundcheck and the shows. But I'm working for the venue which means I take care of the band, the seating arrangements or the lack of which means chairs and tables are taken out, and then I run the door and make sure there is no issues overall. I pretty much deal with anything the bar staff and the soundguy don't do. So while I could sometimes listen to the mix on headphones and make adjustments on soundcheck and during shows more often than not I'm way to busy for that. It's not often I get five minutes dealing with a recording mix.

Sometimes the soundguy could do that but I would very much try to avoid relying on that as I just know that the one time I really want this to work there will be an issue for him doing it. We're also in a position that with early soundchecks we have to limit the time we make noise so playing an extra song then just to set an extra mix won't be a good idea.

So far opinion seems pretty evenly split in not only 2 choices but 3.

1. Laptop. Convinient and small but hard to find a reliable one with firewire.

2. Tower computer. Will probably have room for it under mixing desk but not sure how much room there will be for monitor etc. Possibly monitor can be put away once recording started though. Need to get the right firewire card.

3. ADAT machines. As someone wrote they are more like a traditional recorder, a big plus. I don't really mind bringing a harddisk home for transfering files either. There seems to be mixed opinions on their reliability although the hd version are obviously the way to go. No way am i gettting  one running tape.

I'm thinking any of these options can be had for 500 or less. Which is why I'm not consiering buying new ADATs or top of the line computers for thousands. I'ld use that money for other stuff.

We are getting a new table for the mixer next week so I guess I'll see for real how much extra space there will be.

[slowburn]

You could also just print out a picture of any mulitracking rig - and tape it up next to the soundboard...

It will produce just as many finished recordings...

(Taper humor...or an attempt.)

Matter of opinion.  I'd put my best recordings done with this 'simple method' up against anything that's out there and in many cases they sound IMHO better since the multi-track is oftentimes a sterile over-or-under processed mess.  The LivePhish recordings for awhile after Languedoc stopped doing them are a great example.

Anyway, don't mean to derail the thread.  Just thought I'd post the thought since cost seems to be a factor for the OP.

You're both right I think. And no I don't really want to turn this into that discussion so let's end that right here.

I'll only add that like I said I will only use this with the intention of doing a mix rarely, like once a month or so. I would probably record many more on the multitrack than that but without intention of actually doing a mix myself right away. I'll always run a separate 2+2 matrix at the same time. But not only does the band often appreciate getting them there's also the chance of a show you don't expect anything from blowing you away or booking a band early that later become a big name.

I know you all have those shows where you're thinking a year or ten later that you wish you had a better/different recording of it.

[slowburn]

You could get a Cymatic LR16 and two 8 channel TRS snakes, and record directly off the inserts. That's assuming the sound guy isn't using any outboard effects, but you could always run a splitter. That'd be something small and simple, while capturing everything. Adds another A/D step though, but no different than how most folks generally record multitracks.

http://www.cymaticaudio.com/products/live-recorder-lr16

Basically need the LR16 + TRS snake + power supply + USB hard drive. Could sit off side of the board or wherever and record without a hitch. I have one (although I've basically retired it since upgrading to the uTrack24), so feel free to fire off questions on it if you decide to go that route.

Beyond that--it'd look like a laptop with a firewire input would be best alternative solution. Use Reaper (free) or any other DAW, create a saved template with proper i/o routing, and re-use that for every show.

I know but I'll be damned if we get a new desk with two dedicated recording output systems and then use a third. 

I actually looked at both those Cymatics before we bought this mixer. In case we got one with regular analog outputs we would probably have gone that route. Doing it now with the insertion of a splitter cause there will be outboard effects seems plain wrong.

We actually tried a similar setup a few times with the old 8 track mixer we had. We might have had a defective splitter or something because we always had issues.

[2manyrocks]

Laptops can walk off...towers are a bit harder to rip off.  There are lots of refurbished towers to be had for not much money.  FW cards for towers are also cheap.

[stevetoney]

You're both right I think. And no I don't really want to turn this into that discussion so let's end that right here.

I'll only add that like I said I will only use this with the intention of doing a mix rarely, like once a month or so. I would probably record many more on the multitrack than that but without intention of actually doing a mix myself right away. I'll always run a separate 2+2 matrix at the same time. But not only does the band often appreciate getting them there's also the chance of a show you don't expect anything from blowing you away or booking a band early that later become a big name.

I know you all have those shows where you're thinking a year or ten later that you wish you had a better/different recording of it.

I hear you...I'm jealous.  I definitely have shows that blew me away that I wish I had more to work with.  I'd LOVE to have the situation you're in because I know that if I had the opportunity to spend the time with the tracks, I'd make sure it was done right and it would sound awesome. 

[yousef]

Another thing to bear in mind is that you're going to need at least two further tracks for your ambient mics - to neglect these will, at best, leave you with a rather sterile recording and, most likely, lead to you missing some instruments entirely.

Plus there'll almost certainly be occasions when you'll max out the desk's 16 channels and the needs of the room sound will not necessarily correspond to those of a decent recording... Something cheap and dirty like an ADA8000 feeding the HD24's third ADAT input would be an easy solution here.

I'd also think about getting some mics or their mount permanently installed in the venue so you're not stuck putting your mics in a suboptimal position.

[Life In Rewind]

Another thing to bear in mind is that you're going to need at least two further tracks for your ambient mics - to neglect these will, at best, leave you with a rather sterile recording and, most likely, lead to you missing some instruments entirely.

Plus there'll almost certainly be occasions when you'll max out the desk's 16 channels and the needs of the room sound will not necessarily correspond to those of a decent recording... Something cheap and dirty like an ADA8000 feeding the HD24's third ADAT input would be an easy solution here.

I'd also think about getting some mics or their mount permanently installed in the venue so you're not stuck putting your mics in a suboptimal position.

Can he use the extra analog inputs on the HD24 simultaneous to the digital I/O?

[slowburn]

Another thing to bear in mind is that you're going to need at least two further tracks for your ambient mics - to neglect these will, at best, leave you with a rather sterile recording and, most likely, lead to you missing some instruments entirely.

Plus there'll almost certainly be occasions when you'll max out the desk's 16 channels and the needs of the room sound will not necessarily correspond to those of a decent recording... Something cheap and dirty like an ADA8000 feeding the HD24's third ADAT input would be an easy solution here.

I'd also think about getting some mics or their mount permanently installed in the venue so you're not stuck putting your mics in a suboptimal position.

The room is small enough that in the past we haven't always miced everything. That would certanly change on the shows we care  about now regardless wheter it's needed for the room sound or not. Working with only 8 tracks we often had 2-4 vocals, keyboard, acoustic guitar 1 or 2 drum mics and maybe something else. A few times we had to cheat and collect a few things to a side mixer sending those tracks together to one track on the 8 track mixer we had. That was rare but often enough that we decided we had to upgrade to 16. Anything with amps normally weren't miced. Adding those and more drum mics would probably put us at 10-14 at most shows. So I should be able to get the audience mics to fit most of the time. For the occasional show were we wouldn't I could still record those directly to my Edirol R-4 pro. With sync issues of course so not ideal but it's solution that probably won't be necessary often.

We actually had something installed to the ceiling that I could clamp a mic boom onto. It was a little unstable though so I'll have to come up with something sturdier. The audience don't like mics falling on them. And the mics don't like falling on the floor instead of a soft audience member.

But yeah, I'll defenitly make sure to get room mics for all recordings.

[Gutbucket]

Consider installing a room/audience facing pair of supercardioids facing out into the audience, away from the stage and PA speakers.  Position them to maximally exclude the PA sound and on-stage sound as much as possible.  A common setup for this is to arrange them in parallel to each other spaced very widely, with one at each far end of the stage pointing out into the room, not too close to the PA.  For maximum utility and usefulness, you do not want stage or PA sound in those channels- you will be getting that from all the other channels.

[yousef]

Can he use the extra analog inputs on the HD24 simultaneous to the digital I/O?

Yes - you can use a mix of ADAT and analogue ins - the only limitation being you can only change this for each pair of inputs: eg channels 1 and 2 both have to be either analogue or digital.  Ditto 3 & 4 and all other pairs.

The benefit of using the Ada8000 (or similar ) would be eight channels of phantom and pre-amps as well as avoiding any theoretical sync issues.

Ambient mics in this context is still something I need to perfect. At a minimum I need to reconcile myself to running two pairs (one for audience plus one for onstage sound) but I'm beginning to understand why the pros use four or more pairs... Then again: Live at Leeds, Jimi at Monterey, Too Late To Stop Now etc etc etc...

[slowburn]

People!  An ADAT output does not require an ADAT tape deck

There are plenty of computer interfaces with ADAT inputs.

Great. More alternatives, just what I needed ...

Had totally missed that you could get ADAT as computer interface. But not sure if there are any benefits over firewire for me? Would an ADAT card in the computer have the same risk as a firewire card? Meaning something else in the computer hogging resources etc. Also can't firewire handle more data flow. If ADAT is at 8 x 24/48 or 4 x 24/96 I'm pretty sure Firewire can do more.

In short, in a computer what would the benefit of a RME HDSP 9652 for $700 be in my situation over a regular firewire input.

[Life In Rewind]

I just noticed we have 2 of these at work - but pointless with the ZED, since this comes back to Firewire out.

[slowburn]

These are different things.  There are Firewire interfaces with ADAT inputs.  ADAT is a digital audio transmission format; Firewire is a data bus.  ADAT is the same for every device that uses it; a Firewire interface will always have custom drivers for the various OSs its manufacturer decides to support.

ADAT is one-way from the output to the input; the connected device has absolutely no effect on the output device.  The mixer won't even know whether or not its ADAT ports are connected.  It just blasts out a data stream in a fixed format by toggling a LED on and off.

Firewire is a two-way data exchange between the device and the computer, and brings with it the usual issues with driver stability or lack thereof.  If the Firewire bus is happy, you are happy.  If it is unhappy . . . then you get into issues about worrying about drivers and chipset compatibility . . .

The RME stuff will be either PCI, PC card, USB, or Firewire connection to the computer, as with any other interface.  I can't tell you if $700 is worth it compared with the mixer to your lappy Firewire, because you won't know until you try the Firewire to see if it works well.  If it does, then you are fine.  If it doesn't . . . but there are other options that don't cost $700.  But I'm not trying to sell ADAT, just explaining how these systems work.

I do appreciate your time. I'm trying to figure this out.

As a side note.

While researching this I noticed that RME cards seems way overpriced in the US. Sweetwater, Amazon etc all have them at $699 which is $100 saving from retail. In Europe they sell for 449 euro which is around $510 and that INCLUDES around 20% vat so the comparable price is more like $410 to $699. I know it's a German company but still. Rare to see such a big difference in that direction. Good thing I'm in Europe. Makes it closer to my budget.

[phil_er_up]

Used a RME 24/96 PCI card for over 10 years. It is expensive though very quiet, thought about buying the ADAT card too. Back then the card did not run on all brands of PC's. Purchased the card in early 2000's and my PC was not that fast or had that very much memory just due to the times and the PC never had a problem keeping up with 2-channel recordings though did not ran it with 16-channels. The card came with software to run a 16 channel mixer with many options for input and output though you had to buy the ADAT card ( if I remember correctly). The card is in my closet and can not run on 64 bit architecture so had to be retired....

Local band has a A&H Mix wizard 16:2 that I run sound and record with. So this thread is interesting to me. The mix wizards had different record options with 16 individual 1/4 outputs and 2 different stereo mixes and you can run it to a computer for either 16 or 24 channels. At their practices have used a 2,4,8-channel recorder. When using the 8 channel recorder, sometimes run 6 channels from mixer to the recorder and use 2 mics in the room then mix from there. Or sometimes just use the 2 channel Stereo mix output and the 2 room mics. Have tried many combinations and always interested trying to mix each different configuration.