Topic: Best use of ~$400 to upgrade my setup?

[voltronic]

Please see my sig for what I'm running now.  I have a modest amount of money I'm willing to spend on upgrades, and would appreciate advice on where I'd get the most long-term benefit for my money.  I record classical and jazz, almost 100% acoustic concerts.  I was bitten by the upgrade bug a couple of weeks ago when I borrowed some AKG and Schoeps mics along with a Zoom H6 to do a concert for a friend. 

Here's my short list of what I'm considering:

1. Recorder w/ phantom-powered XLR inputs.  I currently have nothing portable for 48V mics, and would like to start using my Naiant omnis (or other mics) while still having a line in for my CA-14s.  4 channels a plus but not a necessity.  Don't care much about the build-in mics as long as they're decent for quick rehearsals.  What I'm wondering is if any recorder in my price range is going to perform any better than my M10.  If not, I'll stick with it.
Options that look good:
- Tascam DR-100mkII
- Roland R-26 (over my budget new, but maybe can find it less used)   
- Zoom H5 (they seem to have addressed the knob movement issue of the H6)

2. If I keep my M10, then I'm considering a Naiant tinybox set up for both PIP and 48V inputs.  This would allow me to run the mics I own now plus anything I would theoretically buy or borrow down the road, and the quality of the preamps is going to be better than the build-ins on a portable recorder.  Although running my battery box into the M10s MIC input continues to amaze me just how low I can go with recording levels.

3. A new set of mics, although without upgrade 1 and/or 2 I can't power 48V like I said.  Busman BSC1 or Avantone CK-1 look attractive (in budget used), as does Line Audio CM3. 

4. Something else I haven't thought of, or just stick with what I've got?

Thanks for the advice!

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Mics will almost always give you the biggest improvement...but with only a battery box in the arsenal you might want to get that Tinybox and then upgrade the mics later.

{Mics} > Tinybox > M10 is one of the smallest and best options out there (especially for the $$$).

If I were putting together a "budget" rig and I already had the M10, I'd add the Tinybox first (since it can work with your current mics) and then ideally I'd add the Busman BCS2 mics. That complete rig would run a hair over $1000 and compete with just about anything.

[stevetoney]

Keep the m10 since you already have CA14's and you'll still want to use those.  It's a great recorder and there's nothing magical about having p48 on XLR inputs on your recorder especially when most preamps do that anyway.  Overall, I think the m10 is a more solid product than the dr100mkii though the Tascam has more features...I've owned both. 

I'm with him ^.  I'd normally say get mics before preamp in terms of bang for buck on the upgrade, but in this case I think you might be better served adding the tinybox now and then get your BCS1 and BCS2 when your budget allows.  Most of us have learned the hard way that it's usually not the best  long term financial solution to compromise what you want now to fit inside a more restrictive budget.  So this recommendation is based on building for the longer term.

One option that gets you close is the Tinybox and Studio Projects C4 mics or perhaps some Oktava MK-012.  I've heard that combo before and it sound pretty dang sweet.

[Ultfris101]

Same here: get a Tinybox that can do both P48 and plug-in power and then get some mics. M10 is perfect paired with Tinybox.

[voltronic]

Thanks to everyone for the great advice!  I'll look into a tinybox, and then mics down the road.

[acidjack]

Hopefully you didn't do what anyone suggested yet, since what you should clearly do is buy these AKGs and wait / stretch to get a preamp for them. Or, at $280, with that budget you could almost buy a Tascam DR-40 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/801077190-USE/tascam_dr_40_4_track_handheld_digital.htmlBI=225&kw=USED&gclid=CjkKEQjwzv-cBRD_oY2PouKVvMIBEiQAKuGNCx7992xO5EKZwpuTq8wUj2QeGaf9uRt356okqEqDlxnw_wcB) which has P48, and have new mics and a P48 recorder. All you'd need was stand and cables then.

[hoppedup]

I'm loving my Tascam DR-60D. It is 4 channel, has 2 XLR inputs, 48V phantom and I can grab a board feed or run my CA-14s as back-up at the same time. I've been running it without a pre and am happy with my recordings, even the quieter stuff that I've boosted in post sounds good to my ears.

I had a mental block that was telling me I had to have a pre-amp to get good recordings. That's just because I read too much here on this website. I just bought a second DR-60D so I can more easily cover two stages at festivals. At $195, it is the best bang for the buck I've gotten since I started taping.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/929347-REG/tascam_dr_60d_4_ch_track_linear_pcm.html

[willndmb]

Like my tb, like my m10, like my dr60d
There are some akg 391 for $280 in the yard and that's a steal IMO
So if you can swing $500you can grab those and a tb/dr60d

[acidjack]

I'm loving my Tascam DR-60D. It is 4 channel, has 2 XLR inputs, 48V phantom and I can grab a board feed or run my CA-14s as back-up at the same time. I've been running it without a pre and am happy with my recordings, even the quieter stuff that I've boosted in post sounds good to my ears.

I had a mental block that was telling me I had to have a pre-amp to get good recordings. That's just because I read too much here on this website. I just bought a second DR-60D so I can more easily cover two stages at festivals. At $195, it is the best bang for the buck I've gotten since I started taping.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/929347-REG/tascam_dr_60d_4_ch_track_linear_pcm.html

Without making comment one way or the other on the Tascam DR-60D (which I've never used), I agree so much with this. While various preamps do add "changes" to the sound, I've found the onboard pres of most decent recorders do a fine job. If I look back through my absolute best recordings, the presence one way or the other of an external pre is rarely the main factor -- the placement and type of mics (as well as availability of an SBD feed) matters a lot more. Especially on any kind of budget, I think that external pres are kind of a "nice to have" but absolutely not a necessity. The tinybox, as noted, provides the advantage of being much smaller (even with an M10) than most all-in-ones, and of course, then you aren't tied to using one deck. It's also a little easier, I find, to use two small boxes for stealth rather than one slightly larger one, if that's your thing.

[Gutbucket]

I record classical and jazz, almost 100% acoustic concerts.

would like to start using my Naiant omnis (or other mics) while still having a line in for my CA-14s.  4 channels a plus but not a necessity.

the placement and type of mics (as well as availability of an SBD feed) matters a lot

Omnis.


Maybe a DR2d if you can find one + batt box (and/or preamp like PIP-SQUEAK, T-BOX, CA-UGLY, etc) to run 4 low voltage PIP microphones while keeping everything easily pocketable.

[hoppedup]

That's primarily a decision about size--the DR60D is ten times the volume of tinybox and five times the volume of tinybox + an M10.  It also has shorter runtime than the tinybox + M10 combo even though it's carrying the same battery capacity of 10Wh, so you probably have to commit to external batteries as well.

Impressive feature set for the Tascam at that price level though.

I do use an external USB battery. I've only tested it once. With P48 on two channels, I turned it off at 12 hours with one bar showing on the battery. I already had the USB battery for charging my phone when I didn't have power. I honestly didn't expect it to run the DR-60D for so long. When people do size comparisons, it makes it sound huge. I know about the laws of physics, but it just doesn't seem that large. http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=161501.msg2081397#msg2081397

I use this battery: http://www.amazon.com/Jackery-High-capacity-Aluminum-Dual-Port-Ultra-fast/dp/B00EA1P8OI

I'm not stealthing with the 60D so the size/form does not bother me. With an external battery, I'm still just under $250. Oh, and the dual recording feature makes setting levels less nerve-wracking and has saved at least three recordings for me.

[yates7592]

I would go with Acidjack's suggestion and snap up those AKG's (both card and omni caps for $420). Worry about how to power them later.

[hoppedup]

I would go with Acidjack's suggestion and snap up those AKG's (both card and omni caps for $420). Worry about how to power them later.

These are no longer available.

[bryonsos]

How about a gear bag? I have 2 different sized Lowepro bags to choose between depending on the rig(s) I'm hauling.

[stevetoney]

It's all subjective.  You gotta listen on your own and take any advice here as a guideline to drive you to listen on your own.  I can't tell you how many times I took advice of others here only to realize later that I should have trusted my own ears.  For example, there's been some love given in this thread given for the AKG-300 mics...I personally don't like the AKG-300 sound.  They tend to have a bloaty low end which, to my ears, is one of the ugliest sounds possible on a recording.  Lots of people like that though because it's perceived as low end warmth which can also be perceived as 'bang for buck' in a lower end mic since lower end mics tend to not sound warm.

[willndmb]

That's primarily a decision about size--the DR60D is ten times the volume of tinybox and four times the volume of tinybox + an M10.  It also has shorter runtime than the tinybox + M10 combo even though it's carrying the same battery capacity of 10Wh, so you probably have to commit to external batteries as well.

Impressive feature set for the Tascam at that price level though.

you 100% need external power unless you tape short shows
The tb is way better IMO unless you need/want two things...
Video
4ch

[willndmb]

How long can I get on a tb charge with naiant akg actives powered via high???
30hrs for them or is that pip mics

[voltronic]

Chiming in on the discussion I have missed:

I haven't bought anything just yet.

I was looking at those AKGs since they were such a deal, but not having heard any recordings using them I was hesitant to move on them, especially without a means to power them.

Tascam DR-60D is something I looked at, but the very short battery runtimes are what kills that option for me.  I don't want to deal with external batteries.  The Zoom H5/6 seems more attractive in the 4+ channel realm, especially since I have very positive direct experience with the H6 preamps and great battery life running 4 channels of 48V mics.  My experience with Zoom's long-term reliablity has been much less positive although I thought the H6 was a big step up in build quality from their past products.  But - my M10 is a solid performer right now, and I don't see any of these other decks actually making a better recording - they would just be a means to an end having the phantom powered inputs.  But it would save me a little money that I could put towards mics or other things. 

The Tinybox would take up most of my budget, but it seems to have a lot going for it in terms of quality and versatitliy.  I also appreciate Jon being honest and straightforward about his products.  If I could afford it, I would certainly go the actives route, as it seems the best of all possible worlds.  Side question - would a tinybox configured for phantom also be able to run actives with no internal modifications, just the necessary cable adaptors?

I'm taking my time with this, because for me, this is quite a lot of cash to lay down on recording equipment.  Thanks again to all.

[willndmb]

You can have a tb configured for multi set ups and that one of the kick ass things about it
I have mine to run 48v/pip/actives
The 48v and pip have adapters while the actives plug in directly
You can also have actives with pfa ends which allow you to run on any 48v pre/deck
So what you could do if you wanted is upgrade to a tb and use your church mics until you save some more money for mics, then you would have two sets of mics and one pre to power them

[H₂O]

Buy 4 shares of apple stock and sell it after the iPhone 6 comes out - maybe you will have $500 after fees and taxes w/ a little luck

[willndmb]

tinybox can run actives/P48/PIP

PIP or active should be in the 20-30 hour range, depending on what else is in the box.

so to help me make sure i understand and don't screw myself at a show...
I have been running my Naiant AKG actives on HIGH power and in doing so I should see 20 hrs or run time?
I just assumed I would get approx 4-5hrs as I did with bodies in the mix and in turn have been charging up every show.
tia

[Ultfris101]

tinybox can run actives/P48/PIP

PIP or active should be in the 20-30 hour range, depending on what else is in the box.

so to help me make sure i understand and don't screw myself at a show...
I have been running my Naiant AKG actives on HIGH power and in doing so I should see 20 hrs or run time?
I just assumed I would get approx 4-5hrs as I did with bodies in the mix and in turn have been charging up every show.
tia

I did a time test a while back with my Naiant actives and tinybox and was just over 20 hours for sure. can't remember if it stopped or I stopped it but I was well satisfied I'd be good in most situations. I still charge before a show to be safe but I know I can run "forever" if necessary.

Do a test of your own when you have a chance. It's enlightening and confidence building. Also good to know if for some reason you get wildly different results something must be wrong/different.

I plugged my m10 into wall power, set it to record in 16 bit so no chance it would fill up card, and let it record the fan on my computer so I could tell when it went silent.

[voltronic]

tinybox can run actives/P48/PIP in a single box but you have to let me know the configuration on order (or be prepared to return the box for later modification).  Not every option will be compatible, and sometimes you'll have to give up a feature to get something else.  For example, if you want P48 + KCY you'll lose low-volt phantom (16V) as KCY has to run on 8V.  That is also true for some other active options, like MBHO, Beyer, Neumann.  And you couldn't thus have AKG active + KCY + P48, because both AKG (and all nbox) options use 16V.  When you select P48, then your active polarization voltage will be 48V, but if you go active only then it's 54V.  That's just 1dB difference, but some people just want that 54V.

PIP or active should be in the 20-30 hour range, depending on what else is in the box.

The only actives I would probably be able to afford (used) in the forseeable future would be something like Busman BSC2 or the BSC1 actives (if those are even still made).

[willndmb]

You will get at least 20 hours (high vs. low makes very little difference in runtime with actives), but to maximize battery life it's still best to keep fully charged.

sweet
Thanks

[obaaron]

why was I under the impression that my Tinybox was only to be on high when using my AKG Naiant actives?  I can run it on low too? 

[voltronic]

Tinybox is the route I've decided to go, as I think it's going to be the best long-term investment.

Jon, I sent you another email with some final configuration questions.

Thanks everyone!

[adrianf74]

Glad you chose that route.   It's the best use of your funds for what you're wanting to do (the M10 is a perfectly good deck) plus the TinyBox is very customizable and can be used with both actives and PIP mics (with an additional $19 adaptor cable).  It'll give you all sorts of choices. 

[voltronic]

Glad you chose that route.   It's the best use of your funds for what you're wanting to do (the M10 is a perfectly good deck) plus the TinyBox is very customizable and can be used with both actives and PIP mics (with an additional $19 adaptor cable).  It'll give you all sorts of choices.

Yeah after speaking with Jon that's the conclusion I arrived at.  It seems to be the most future-proof, in the sense that while I may have a different recorder and mics in 5-10 years, the tinybox will probably still work with whatever I am running at that point.

[adrianf74]

Glad you chose that route.   It's the best use of your funds for what you're wanting to do (the M10 is a perfectly good deck) plus the TinyBox is very customizable and can be used with both actives and PIP mics (with an additional $19 adaptor cable).  It'll give you all sorts of choices.

Yeah after speaking with Jon that's the conclusion I arrived at.  It seems to be the most future-proof, in the sense that while I may have a different recorder and mics in 5-10 years, the tinybox will probably still work with whatever I am running at that point.

*THUMBS UP*

I look at it this way: even though you may have shiny actives in your arsenal, you'll never know if/when you'll have a problem with either the cables or the caps so you can always connect your old 1/8" terminated mics and use those in a pinch.  That was a deal-maker for me.  Depending on what you're recording, you might want gain presets other than +4/+18/+32dB but I find those are a good compliment.  Some people here prefer +10/+20/+30db (which I'd thought about) but stuck with the stock settings (twice over -- once on the AKG TinyBox and a second time on the Schoeps TinyBox).

[voltronic]

Depending on what you're recording, you might want gain presets other than +4/+18/+32dB but I find those are a good compliment.  Some people here prefer +10/+20/+30db (which I'd thought about) but stuck with the stock settings (twice over -- once on the AKG TinyBox and a second time on the Schoeps TinyBox).

I only record acoustic, mostly classical and jazz and lots of choirs.  I had the same thought that I will never use +4, and was thinking about doing the low-noise amp option and something like +12/+24/+48 although I realize they are way far apart.

[adrianf74]

I went with the low-noise option on my newest purchase.   I wouldn't consider anything more than +40dB to be perfectly honest and maybe there will be a time when you'll need +4dB (say, on-stage).  That said you might want to bump up the first number a little but I wouldn't push the HI gain past +40dB (+40dB is A LOT of gain and introduces a lot of other nastiness)

[voltronic]

Hmm.  Well the defaults for the low-noise look like +4/+21/+42 so maybe I'm better off just going with that.  I'm curious why you say that more that 40dB gain causes problems - are you saying that's the case with the tinybox or in general?  I used to regularly record with up to +50dB on soundboard pres in the building I used to work in, because what I was recording just needed that much gain.  I had no adverse effects.

[voltronic]

Thanks for that very detailed reply, Jon.  I think I understood most of what you said.  I'll continue the discussion over email for my order...