Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Analog cassette > computer or PCM-M10 or CD and rip???  (Read 5461 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nassau73

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 153
Analog cassette > computer or PCM-M10 or CD and rip???
« on: August 06, 2014, 02:30:17 PM »
I'm finally getting off my butt and getting my Nak BX-300 rebuilt (after sitting idle for 13 years).

When I start to transfer tapes to digital, there are several routes I can go. Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions or recommendations. My search of previous posts didn't quite answer.

Anyway,
Option 1 - Cassette copy to Tascam CDR-700 CD writer. This would mean the cassette deck and the CDR700 would be in my stereo system. Path could be cassette > Yamaha amp > CDR-700. Then ripped using Exact Audio Copy. I've used this in the past with good results - just very time consuming.

Option 2 - Cassette copy direct to PCM-M10 using Line In.

Option 3 - Cassette copy to direct Dell computer using OEM Realtek audio.

Thanks for any input - (pun intended)

Offline Gordon

  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 11781
  • Gender: Male
    • my list
Re: Analog cassette > computer or PCM-M10 or CD and rip???
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2014, 02:46:58 PM »
of those I would do option 2.  can you borrow a v3 or something similar with a better a/d (not that the m10 is bad)?  I've done cass > v3 > coax > recorder with good results. 
Microtech Gefell M20 or M21 > Nbob actives > Naiant PFA > Sound Devices MixPre-6 II @ 32/48

https://archive.org/details/fav-gordonlw

https://archive.org/details/teamdirtysouth

Offline twatts (pants are so over-rated...)

  • <://PHiSH//><
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 9941
  • Gender: Male
  • Lego made a Mini-Fig of me!
Re: Analog cassette > computer or PCM-M10 or CD and rip???
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2014, 03:16:57 PM »

Option 2 - Cassette copy direct to PCM-M10 using Line In.


This.
***Do you have PHISH, VIDA BLUE, JAZZ MANDOLIN PROJECT or any other Phish related DATs/Tapes/MDs that need to be transferred???  I can do them for you!!!***

I will return your DATs/Tapes/MDs.  I'll also provide Master FLAC files via DropBox.  PM me for details.

Sony PCM R500 > SPDIF > Tascam HD-P2
Nakamichi DR-3 > (Oade Advanced Concert Mod) Tascam HD-P2
Sony MDS-JE510 > Hosa ODL-276 > Tascam HD-P2

******

Offline dnsacks

  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1640
Re: Analog cassette > computer or PCM-M10 or CD and rip???
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2014, 03:38:26 PM »
although overkill, I'd recommend #2 and capturing on the m10 at 24/96

Offline Tom McCreadie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: Analog cassette > computer or PCM-M10 or CD and rip???
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2014, 05:15:01 PM »
Were the original cassettes made on the same machine that you are now using for transfer?
Had you included any reference tones on those tapes/ (in case you encounter issues such as head misalignment, improper Dolby levels etc.)

Offline jb63

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (31)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 959
  • Gender: Male
  • if not now when?
Re: Analog cassette > computer or PCM-M10 or CD and rip???
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2014, 06:50:09 PM »
I've tried just about everything in this area.
And your pocketbook is going to hurt when you get the bill for the deck overhaul.

Depends upon the source tape, and how much post processing you want to do, but I found the BEST results on the cheap side was an Deck RCA out > SBM1 (line, RCA in) > DAT (or, optical or coax mod > bitbucket).

After a while you can spend more money on different A/D units that you want to use for flavoring the transfer, making your actual final product on the fly. You can spend up to $1000 on something like that, but I'll say that the SBM1 will hold its own to anything used for this. And they are practically giving them away.
once again, lost in all the noise

Offline DSatz

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3349
  • Gender: Male
Re: Analog cassette > computer or PCM-M10 or CD and rip???
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2014, 08:05:55 PM »
dnsacks, 16/44.1 can easily encompass the full range of 15 ips open-reel master tapes with Dolby "A"-type noise reduction, and is substantial overkill for any cassette ever made. 24/96 is just ... I don't know what to call it, but it doesn't make engineering sense.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline nassau73

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 153
Re: Analog cassette > computer or PCM-M10 or CD and rip???
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2014, 02:24:25 PM »
Were the original cassettes made on the same machine that you are now using for transfer?
Had you included any reference tones on those tapes/ (in case you encounter issues such as head misalignment, improper Dolby levels etc.)

First - thanks to everyone for the suggestions. Very helpful.

In answer - not all the tapes were made on this machine. Several hundred were recorded on this deck, but not all. Most were traded from various sources through contacts made via Golden Road, RELIX and our old Eugene Traders Group.

Quote
And your pocketbook is going to hurt when you get the bill for the deck overhaul.

Yep, the estimate was $250 to $300. Sending it to the mainland via snail mail will be about $35 each way - that's about 3 to 4 weeks for transport in  each direction. Otherwise postage can get up to $95 each way via Fed Ex or UPS!

Quote
can you borrow a v3 or something similar with a better a/d (not that the m10 is bad)?
No. To my knowledge, there's only one other taper here on Maui and he doesn't have anything like that.

Offline vanark

  • TDS
  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (29)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 8519
  • If you ain't right, you better get right!
    • The Mudboy Grotto - North Mississippi Allstar fan site
Re: Analog cassette > computer or PCM-M10 or CD and rip???
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2014, 10:50:56 PM »
I think you will be very satisfied with the results of option 2. I have been.
If you have a problem relating to the Live Music Archive (http://www.archive.org/details/etree) please send an e-mail to us admins at LMA(AT)archive(DOT)org or post in the LMA thread here and we'll get on it.

Link to LMA Recordings

Link to Team Dirty South Recordings on the LMA

Mics: Microtech Gefell M21 (with Nbob actives) | Church Audio CA-11 (cards) (with CA UBB)
Pres: babynbox
Recorders: Tascam DR-60D | Tascam DR-40 | Sony PCM-A10 | Edirol R-4

Offline splumer

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1192
  • Gender: Male
  • Go ahead, try this at home
Re: Analog cassette > computer or PCM-M10 or CD and rip???
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2014, 09:19:24 AM »
I vote for option 2. Option 1 seems like adding an unnecessary step, plus media costs, plus the fact that sound deteriorates a bit when going from CD-R to ripping, even with EAC. As for option 3, is that on a desktop or a laptop? My old desktop had a Yamaha sound card that I used for transferring, and that was good, but when I went to a laptop and got a USB audio interface, I always had trouble with ground noise, so I ended up transferring my old cassette masters using my PMD660 recorder and have never regretted it.
"Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be here. "
 - Lawrence Krauss

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15714
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Analog cassette > computer or PCM-M10 or CD and rip???
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2014, 09:58:47 AM »
plus the fact that sound deteriorates a bit when going from CD-R to ripping, even with EAC.

Based on what factual evidence?  If there are any errors in the data transfer EAC will clearly note it, assuming it has been properly configured.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline lpmaskman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 122
  • Gender: Male
    • Trade list
Re: Analog cassette > computer or PCM-M10 or CD and rip???
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2014, 10:06:56 AM »
Just connect to your flash recorder and 16/44.
Mics: AT853, ATM35
Inbetween: CA-9100, 3-wire battery box (homemade)
Recorders: Olympus LS-12, Zoom H2 (4 channel line input mod)
Video: Panasonic HC-V770 (x2), GoPro Hero4 Silver, Sony RX10mkII

Offline splumer

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1192
  • Gender: Male
  • Go ahead, try this at home
Re: Analog cassette > computer or PCM-M10 or CD and rip???
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2014, 10:33:40 AM »
plus the fact that sound deteriorates a bit when going from CD-R to ripping, even with EAC.

Based on what factual evidence?  If there are any errors in the data transfer EAC will clearly note it, assuming it has been properly configured.

I always thought that was common knowledge. Most torrent sites require one post any DAE as part of the lineage. If that's not the case, then I (happily) stand corrected!
"Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be here. "
 - Lawrence Krauss

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15714
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Analog cassette > computer or PCM-M10 or CD and rip???
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2014, 12:50:31 PM »
Most certainly using the M10 is the best option here.

My correction to what was posted is that the [CDR>EAC>WAV] extraction itself is completely bit-perfect robust when correctly configured and no errors are reported.  It's the reason that application was developed.  "sound deterioration" by way of extraction errors can occur in the process, yet is not factually inevitable and if it does occur EAC notes it clearly in both the application display and the txt log. 

Those particular extraction errors are one subset of the possible errors that can be introduced with a CDR in the lineage, and documenting the lineage to list any known or potential errors is always a good idea.  But the EAC extraction portion of the lineage is one of the better monitored portions of it.  It is not inherently error prone, but rather inherantly error correcting by design and notes any errors if they do occur.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline DSatz

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3349
  • Gender: Male
Re: Analog cassette > computer or PCM-M10 or CD and rip???
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2014, 11:40:31 PM »
About 15 years ago I devised and performed a detailed analysis of DAE at high speeds. I generated a test signal algorithmically, with values chosen so that any interpolation or holding of data values (so-called "error concealment") could be easily detected. I stored the signal as an hour-long .WAV file, recorded it onto an audio CD, and tested the ability of various drives and programs to extract the data correctly from that CD. I saw cases in which samples or groups of samples were skipped; others in which samples or groups of samples were repeated; and I've seen the left and right channels of a stereo recording get exchanged for small fractions of a second at a time.

If I recall correctly, this was back when the top speed was only 16X or 32X. I saw errors when extracting the audio at only 4X. The limiting factor, it seemed to me at the time, was the ability of a drive to resume reading at the correct point after its data buffer became full. Some CD drives are specifically designed for bit-accurate DAE, and can find that place exactly; the standard back then was Plextor, but they're no longer the only ones with this feature. My tests confirmed that Plextor was doing it right (at least when the company's proprietary DAE software was used), while the other drives that I tried really didn't do such a great job.

(Edited later to add: To understand this problem, please realize that the data on audio CDs is divided into physical sectors--but unlike the sectors on a conventional floppy or hard disc, the sectors on a CD aren't numbered. So "seeking" to a particular sector is only an approximate operation--the player can't tell exactly where it is at any given moment. CD-ROMs and other, later disc formats have sector numbering included as part of the "logical" format of the disc--in other words, the data recorded on the disc includes artificial sector numbers--so that seeks and re-reads can be done precisely. But the audio CD format came first, and it was designed for audio players where the only issue was a few milliseconds' variation in the point at which a given track would begin to be played.)

Of course nowadays, with hard drives that have faster seek times and much larger data buffers, and with CD/DVD/BluRay drives having larger data buffers as well, there might not even be any point at which the CD drive's data buffer fills up completely, as long as other processes on the computer don't interfere. In the optimal case the CD drive can simply keep on reading and its buffer can stay about half-full all the time. Then the drive never has to stop reading and resume where (you hope) it left off. So if I were to repeat this test today, the results might be considerably better, particularly on a computer with a solid-state drive.

Nonetheless, the issue of DAE data errors is very real, and specific measures must be taken to control them. I still use drives that are specifically designed for bit-accurate DAE. Then software such as Exact Audio Copy can still be used for confirmation but there will typically be no re-reads during the actual extraction, because the drive gets it right the first time.

--best regards
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 07:56:33 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.13 seconds with 43 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF