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Author Topic: Analog Transfers, why 24 bit?  (Read 9779 times)

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Offline edtyre

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Analog Transfers, why 24 bit?
« on: August 21, 2014, 02:08:02 AM »
If the best recorded cassette tapes have 6-8 bits of resolution
and the best recorded reel to reel (30ips) has maybe 11 bits of resolution
and most well recorded LP's have 9-10 bits of resolution?
( i may be off on these, correct me if i'm wrong)
Why do thousands and maybe tens of thousands of analog transfers we see posted online
all the time use 24/96 or 24/192  or even 1bit/5.6448 MHz DSD analog > digital transfers?
Then people offer both 16 and 24 bit downloads of something that was recorded in 8 bits???

Is it worth even doing 24/44.1 transfers to do edits and then convert to 16 bit for final copy?
I don't think so. YMMV

I have done some vinyls , all in 16/44.1 They all sound great!
Thorens TD-125 > shure sme > shelter cart  > phono amp > AD2K > R-44 (16/44.1)

How does a reel tape at 3.75 ips recording a program on the radio in the 70's sound
any better in 24 bit?



« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 02:19:15 AM by edtyre »
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Offline twatts (pants are so over-rated...)

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Re: Analog Transfers, why 24 bit?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2014, 03:19:47 AM »
I have settled on 16/48 as my own standard for Cass(x) transfers...  At least that way, I can stick it on a DVD and listen, though I have never done that, I probably never will...

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Offline John Willett

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Re: Analog Transfers, why 24 bit?
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2014, 06:54:14 AM »
24-bit allows you to set the levels to allow for headroom without compromising quality.

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Re: Analog Transfers, why 24 bit?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2014, 10:22:40 AM »
24-bit allows you to set the levels to allow for headroom without compromising quality.

This is the best reason I've seen; if you only get one play of an old tape that you need to bake or something, better make it a good one.
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Analog Transfers, why 24 bit?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2014, 11:02:20 AM »
For a finished product from an analog transfer there is no reason to retain a 24 bit file.

That seems the key.  For the transfer and editing there is some logic to using the resources that are readily available.  Posting the end result in 24-96 seems excessive. 
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Offline edtyre

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Re: Analog Transfers, why 24 bit?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2014, 01:03:50 PM »
OK, 24 bit for transfer and archiving, but 16 bit for end result.
Although i use 16 bit for transfer.

So why do so many people offer high rez versions of these transfers.
I have called out some people on this and they say "because it sounds so much better"
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Analog Transfers, why 24 bit?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2014, 01:38:25 PM »
"it sounds so much better"

May mean it sounds so much better to say it's posted as "24-bit"...  not necessarily that the music sounds so much better  :P 

There are arguments made back and forth in other threads about whether people can hear a difference between 24 bit and 16 bit (from a true 24 bit source) or even between a WAV and an MP3 depending on which argument you look for. 

I'd wager most people can't hear the difference between 24bit and 16bit (assuming a reasonable conversion).  I'm quite sure I've noticed many people can't hear a difference between a WAV and an MP3. 

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Offline raymonda

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Re: Analog Transfers, why 24 bit?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2014, 10:38:54 PM »
Wow.......I have done listening test over and over again and can easily hear a difference between 16 and 24.

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Analog Transfers, why 24 bit?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2014, 05:33:28 AM »
I'd wager most people can't hear the difference between 24bit and 16bit (assuming a reasonable conversion).  I'm quite sure I've noticed many people can't hear a difference between a WAV and an MP3. 

I guess I should be embarrassed to admit it, but I couldn't hear the difference between 24 bit and Hi-Md Hi-SP mode (which I think had a bit rate equivalent to an mp3 at 256 kbs but probably sounded better). Consequently I always recorded in Hi-SP mode instead of PCM (wave) mode because I didn't have to worry about changing discs every 93 minutes or so.
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Re: Analog Transfers, why 24 bit?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2014, 05:47:36 AM »
Data storage is relatively cheap. I've always figured it was better to capture all the available data even if I don't end up using it all right away (or ever).
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Analog Transfers, why 24 bit?
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2014, 09:26:15 AM »
If the best recorded cassette tapes have 6-8 bits of resolution
and the best recorded reel to reel (30ips) has maybe 11 bits of resolution
and most well recorded LP's have 9-10 bits of resolution?
( i may be off on these, correct me if i'm wrong)
Why do thousands and maybe tens of thousands of analog transfers we see posted online
all the time use 24/96 or 24/192  or even 1bit/5.6448 MHz DSD analog > digital transfers?
Then people offer both 16 and 24 bit downloads of something that was recorded in 8 bits???

Is it worth even doing 24/44.1 transfers to do edits and then convert to 16 bit for final copy?
I don't think so. YMMV

I have done some vinyls , all in 16/44.1 They all sound great!
Thorens TD-125 > shure sme > shelter cart  > phono amp > AD2K > R-44 (16/44.1)

How does a reel tape at 3.75 ips recording a program on the radio in the 70's sound
any better in 24 bit?

I think the real answer is that to normal ears, i.e., for your listening, 24bit is unnecessary. I guess the theory of those who can "hear" the difference (who must be very young, since I'd suspect even normal hearing degradation would eliminate the ability to do so) is that even if the tape itself is below the dynamic range of 16bit maybe there is "added information" above it? Of course, I'd assume that information would only be in the form of handling noise from the cassette, since as you point out, it can't hold any music up there.

Personally I'd be more than happy with any of your transfers done as noted above. :)
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Offline datbrad

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Re: Analog Transfers, why 24 bit?
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2014, 05:30:26 PM »
I'm confused by this discussion. My understanding of word length (bit depth) is that it's a measure of resolution, in other words how many bits of data are used to represent each frequency sample. More is always better in the case of bit depth.

It's generally accepted that a live symphony performance has a useful dynamic range of 50db. The established range for PCM for each bit is 6db, which gives us the theoretical 96db dynamic range possible at 16 bit resolution and 144db dynamic range for 24 bit. On the face it would seem even 16bit is uncessary, let alone 24bit to capture the entire range of what is being presented.

What is often missed in these discussions is that when a recording of music with 50db of dynamic range is made using 16 bit PCM with peaks at 0db, any notes that are at -50db will be represented by only 8 bits, where the same music recorded using 24 bit PCM with peaks at 0db will use 16 bits to represent the same notes that are down -50db. Analog tape, regardless of type, has musical information that decays into what is called "tape hiss". Dynamic range is defined as the range between the point the the musical information is replaced by noise, up to the point that results in harmonic distortion. That range for PCM is more rigid, since there is no buffer at the top from tape saturation, and when the noise floor is reached, the noise totally replaces the musical information. When recording what is on an analog tape, word length determines how much detail can be detected at the bottom of the analog tape's dynamic range during it's much longer transition, and why it's going to be more faithfully captured with 24bit PCM.

The bottom line is that if we accept that a cassette tape has only 50db of dynamic range, a digital recording of that tape peaking at 0db using 16bit PCM will result in a resolution with an average word length of 12 bits. A digital recording of that same tape peaking at 0db using 24bit PCM will result in a resolution with an average word length of 20 bits. That is a significant difference in the ratio of bits per sample, and with a high quality playback system, there are plenty of adults that will be able to hear that difference in terms of detail. If you want to hear a difference in resolution between bit depths in PCM for yourself it's easy. Make a recording with peaks at 0db, then drop the gain to where the max peaks are only -24db, then add back 24db of gain in post and you will have an example of the difference in resolution between 20bit PCM and 24bit PCM and can hear this for yourself.

What is difficult to hear, and I say almost impossible for an adult as they age, is the difference between sampling at 96khz and sampling at 48khz. Between the two, bit depth and sampling frequency, bit depth is more important, IMO, but that is a whole other can of worms I don't intend on opening up here.

Hope this helps.
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Offline edtyre

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Re: Analog Transfers, why 24 bit?
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2014, 06:49:49 PM »
What got me to ask the original question is the fact that a few friends are doing cassette
transfers at 1bit/5.6448 MHz DSD then downsampling to 24/96 for editing and distribution. My point is
i didn't think that it is  worth all the extra time and effort to get basically the same sound at the end.
I know that they have the equipment, hard drive space and the time, it's the results i'm not sure about.

A few years ago there was a thread here about doing vinyl transfers and i was interested in doing some myself.
DSatz and some others challenged me to hear the difference between 24/96 and 16/44.1 using my same gear. In my listening tests
i couldn't tell the difference, so i did all my transfers at 16/44.1. Didn't need any extra headroom as i got this dialed in pretty good
and i did minimal edits to my transfers.

When i do a live concert recording now in 24/96, i can hear a big difference between that one and a down sampled 16/44.1 version.
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Offline raymonda

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Re: Analog Transfers, why 24 bit?
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2014, 07:07:07 PM »
Wow.......I have done listening test over and over again and can easily hear a difference between 16 and 24.

How did you produce the 16 bit file for comparison?  This is somewhat critical, depending on source material, as suboptimal dither routines can be more audible.

To give a more conclusive example, I took an organ recording that I did that had well less than 16 bit dynamic range, due to the quietness of the organ, the noise of the organ blower, and my proximity to the organ (which caused the blower noise problem)--that was because there was a choir, and that was the best position to balance the choir and the organ.  It was not a great hall for that sort of thing, and it was a small, amateur choir.

Anyway, the original recording was 24 bit, so I applied a dither routine which did pretty much nothing as the hall noise was already -30dBFS RMS.  Then I truncated and nulled the truncated 16 bit against the 24 bit original.  The average level of the nulled track is -120dBFS.

I would expect a similar result from nearly any analog transfer that is properly processed.  You can send me a 24 bit sample for processing if you like.

Live mic feed processed through an ad.....then da.......monitors....or headphones or analog transfers processed and listen back the same way.

So........8 bits is enough........well maybe 8 bits of headroom but what happens when you have 4 bits of headroom and you are recording at 8 bits.....much of your resolution will be at 4 bits.

Besides that......have you really ever listen to 8 bit files? It sounds like garbage. If you can't hear the difference between 8 bit and 16 bit files then either your playback is seriously compromised or your hearing is defective.

Some folks can't hear the difference between 16 0 24 bits......to bad for them they are missing out on some great things.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 07:11:18 PM by raymonda »

Offline raymonda

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Re: Analog Transfers, why 24 bit?
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2014, 07:09:18 PM »
If the best recorded cassette tapes have 6-8 bits of resolution
and the best recorded reel to reel (30ips) has maybe 11 bits of resolution
and most well recorded LP's have 9-10 bits of resolution?
( i may be off on these, correct me if i'm wrong)
Why do thousands and maybe tens of thousands of analog transfers we see posted online
all the time use 24/96 or 24/192  or even 1bit/5.6448 MHz DSD analog > digital transfers?
Then people offer both 16 and 24 bit downloads of something that was recorded in 8 bits???

Is it worth even doing 24/44.1 transfers to do edits and then convert to 16 bit for final copy?
I don't think so. YMMV

I have done some vinyls , all in 16/44.1 They all sound great!
Thorens TD-125 > shure sme > shelter cart  > phono amp > AD2K > R-44 (16/44.1)

How does a reel tape at 3.75 ips recording a program on the radio in the 70's sound
any better in 24 bit?

I think you are confusing dynamic range with resolution. There is a big difference.

 

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