Topic: Best Preamp for a Neumann SKM184 > ? > Sony PCM D50 setup

[Fitz]

Newbie needing advice.

Have a Sony PCM D50 and just picked up a stereo pair of Neumann KM184's and need to put the rest of the puzzle together.  Is there a good synergistic match that I should be aware of?

Thanks
Fitz

[sparkey]

v2 always sounded great with my 184's

[page]

v2 always sounded great with my 184's

I would concur, I've heard the neumann line with stuff from Sound Devices, Grace Design, and Apogee, and liked the first two.

Newbie needing advice.

Whats your budget?

[sparkey]

v2 always sounded great with my 184's

With the way things are parked in the Yard Sale right now, you may be able to get one for $500 if you post looking for one.  Everyone needs cash for the holidays and no one is buying....happens every year.

[Big Perm]

i personally really like the oade pre's with the neumann 184's...............especially the m148
a

[SmokinJoe]

Another alternative might be an Oade Warm mod UA-5.  That's what Rob Clarke ran for a few years.  I always thought it made a nice pair.  If there is one in the yard sale, you can probably get it cheap.

[jbell]

I have a Littlebox in the YS that would sound great with these mics.  I also use a D50 for the backend and it has made some Nice recordings.  Sorry for the shameless plug.

[jbell]

The UA5 doesn't do 24bit with a D50 due to the flag issue!  Unless you plan on running analog out of the UA5.  Just a heads up

Another alternative might be an Oade Warm mod UA-5.  That's what Rob Clarke ran for a few years.  I always thought it made a nice pair.  If there is one in the yard sale, you can probably get it cheap.

[mepaca]

Sound Devices usbpre2 optical out > d50. At 24/96 the sound is so clean it's ridiculous.

[Fitz]

Thanks for the guidence all !!.. My budget is sub $500 is possible.

jmbell, I appreciate the "shameless plug" as the little box is top of mind for me.. I hear that the "Tinybox" would be underpowered and wouldn't work for 184's .but the littlebox should work... One thing I've been told is that the km184 line has an extremely hot output stage and no -10dB attenuator, so, I guess a need a preamp that has enough padding to be able to attenuate the signal for the recorder.  Any thoughts on how the little box would address that?

Thanks again,
Fitz

[page]

Thanks for the guidence all !!.. My budget is sub $500 is possible.

jmbell, I appreciate the "shameless plug" as the little box is top of mind for me.. I hear that the "Tinybox" would be underpowered and wouldn't work for 184's .but the littlebox should work... One thing I've been told is that the km184 line has an extremely hot output stage and no -10dB attenuator, so, I guess a need a preamp that has enough padding to be able to attenuate the signal for the recorder.  Any thoughts on how the little box would address that?

Thanks again,
Fitz

for a budget of around 500 or less then is the littlebox (a great economical box imho since the ADC on the D50 is generally considered goo), or if you scrimp and save the usbpre2 which would have optical out that the D50 can take (and the ADC in the usbpre2 is the same used in the 7 series recorders). A used Grace Design V2 would be an option if you hunt and save a bit; usually around $600 but sparkey's right, stuff's a buyers market in the YS now.

The 184s are rated at 15mv/pa, I personally wouldn't consider them hot mics necessarily, but if paired with a preamp that has a high minimum gain or a recorder which has a low max line input before clipping rating, they could pose a problem. For example, I'd have zero worry using the usbpre2 because it's max input signal at the ADC stage is something like +25dbu, and the max mic in is still something like +10db. You could blast a good 25db, maybe 30db of gain and still not clip it in most conditions you'll be in. I can't find the max db line input for the D50 so you might investigate that if your pre-amp is going to be an analog only unit. I think it's more then +8dbu, but that's based on other literature and isn't a confirmation. (check the thread in the recorder section, someone may have figured it out)

[Fitz]

Thanks Page, great infromation, will have to reread it a coupe time to digest it..  I have a beed on a Lunatec V2, is that considered an Analog Pre Amp in your explaination.

[Big Perm]

the V2 is an analog pre-amp.  the V3 has the AD built in the unit
a

[jbell]

My LB does have input transformers, which adds gain.  I can't imagine that you would have a problem with clipping.  I have run it in loud rooms with higher output mics and never ran into problems. 

Thanks for the guidence all !!.. My budget is sub $500 is possible.

jmbell, I appreciate the "shameless plug" as the little box is top of mind for me.. I hear that the "Tinybox" would be underpowered and wouldn't work for 184's .but the littlebox should work... One thing I've been told is that the km184 line has an extremely hot output stage and no -10dB attenuator, so, I guess a need a preamp that has enough padding to be able to attenuate the signal for the recorder.  Any thoughts on how the little box would address that?

Thanks again,
Fitz

[Fitz]

the V2 is an analog pre-amp.  the V3 has the AD built in the unit
a

I assume AD means Analog/Digital.. How critical is that for a KM184 > pre > D50 configuration..  As a newbie is it worth the extra 300 or 400 to go that route?  Or will I get everything I need from a V2. 

Opinions welcome.  thanks

[JasonSobel]

the V2 is an analog pre-amp.  the V3 has the AD built in the unit
a

I assume AD means Analog/Digital.. How critical is that for a KM184 > pre > D50 configuration..  As a newbie is it worth the extra 300 or 400 to go that route?  Or will I get everything I need from a V2. 

Opinions welcome.  thanks

your assumption is correct, the V3 is a pre-amp and an A/D converter, while the V2 is just a pre-amp.  If you get the V2, you'll be relying on the internal A/D in the D50 (which a lot of people are quite happy with).  If you get the V3, you have the option of running optical S/PDIF from the V3 to the D50 (using the V3's A/D converter), or using the V3's analog outputs and using the D50's A/D converter.

at that point, it all comes down to personal preference...  which do you prefer, the V3's A/D or the D50's A/D.  look around the archive for samples.  there are tons of samples of with the km184 > V3 combo (look for Club d'Elf from 2003-2005 for my recordings with that combo).  I'm sure you could also find some V2 > D50 combo recordings on there as well.

[page]

the V2 is an analog pre-amp.  the V3 has the AD built in the unit
a

I assume AD means Analog/Digital.. How critical is that for a KM184 > pre > D50 configuration..  As a newbie is it worth the extra 300 or 400 to go that route?  Or will I get everything I need from a V2. 

Opinions welcome.  thanks

If I were in your shoes and cash was a limitation, I wouldn't sweat it and would look for an analog pre-amp I was happy with. You can always sell the V2 at a slight hit and save up some cash for the V3 if you like the AD sound it has.

[illconditioned]

The preamp in the D50 is excellent, both at loud and quiet levels.

You could therefore just get a phantom power supply.  These are often marketed to people who want to use XLR mics with video cameras.  You should be able to get something like that here (used) for $100.  I've built my own unit, but that needs a bit more initiative...

  Richard

[sparkey]

the V2 is an analog pre-amp.  the V3 has the AD built in the unit
a

I assume AD means Analog/Digital.. How critical is that for a KM184 > pre > D50 configuration..  As a newbie is it worth the extra 300 or 400 to go that route?  Or will I get everything I need from a V2. 

Opinions welcome.  thanks

If I were in your shoes and cash was a limitation, I wouldn't sweat it and would look for an analog pre-amp I was happy with. You can always sell the V2 at a slight hit and save up some cash for the V3 if you like the AD sound it has.

In the signal chain, the A>D affects the sound the least.  Mics the most, followed by your preamp, then the A>D, then cables.

[JasonSobel]

In the signal chain, the A>D affects the sound the least.  Mics the most, followed by your preamp, then the A>D, then cables.

I agree with the order of importance in your second sentence.  Doesn't that then make the A>D the 2nd to last, not the last

[Myco]

i personally really like the oade pre's with the neumann 184's...............especially the m148
a

I agree with this post. The Neumann's tend towards the brighter spectrum, so I'd look to add some warmth through the pre-amp.
The Oade M148, Aerco MP-2, or Sound Device MP-2 would be my recommendations.

[sparkey]

In the signal chain, the A>D affects the sound the least.  Mics the most, followed by your preamp, then the A>D, then cables.

I agree with the order of importance in your second sentence.  Doesn't that then make the A>D the 2nd to last, not the last

I can't be held accountable for my statements that late on a Saturday night

[Big Perm]

What about the Wendt x2? Great sounding small unit. I like it with neumanns. It is also very affordable $350ish.... There is one in the yard sale right now (no affiliation)
a

[sunjan]

The Wendt X2, SD MP2 and AD1000 in the YS are all in the same price range, $300-350:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=141314.0
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=141193.0
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=140591.0

Don't know which one of these are the best match with Neumann's. Perhaps you might be able to go digi-in with the AD1000, don't know if it is compatible with the D50 though?
Portability might be a factor to consider too. These are bulky rigs, compared to a Tinybox or a basic PS-2.

[Fitz]

In the case of this setup bulk is not a primay concern.  Eventually I will pick up a stealth rig and will need to look at battery boxes etc..
By the way, thanks for posting the hyperlinks to the YS I looked at those as well and currently have a lead on a lightly used V2 that I hope to get for the right price.

[sparkey]

MP2 still has support from Sound Devices...I don't believe Apogee will fix your AD1000 if it breaks.

The Wendt X2, SD MP2 and AD1000 in the YS are all in the same price range, $300-350:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=141314.0
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=141193.0
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=140591.0

Don't know which one of these are the best match with Neumann's. Perhaps you might be able to go digi-in with the AD1000, don't know if it is compatible with the D50 though?
Portability might be a factor to consider too. These are bulky rigs, compared to a Tinybox or a basic PS-2.

[taperj]

 I was the one who had mentioned to Fitz that the km184's have a hot output stage and to make sure he had enough padding on his rig to deal with it. I mention this to most everyone who asks because the day I got my Mixpre I ran out and plugged it in to my 184's and MR-1 and went into a loud show(New Mastersounds), and got blown out, bigtime. I have to run -20dB inline pads before the Mixpre to tone it down. Yes, this is ultimately an issue with what the MR-1 can handle signal wise, I might have been able to get away with running off the tape out on the mixpre(doubtful though), but I still feel it's a valid warning because in the whole chain it's something that needs to be thought of, and can really ruin your night out, especially for someone who is new to mics. I feel it's especially precarious when you don't have an on-mic attenuator to fall back on, and your pre has no switchable pads. As for preamp choices, Mixpre/MP-2 sound great with the 184's, I ran a V3 with them at the Greek this summer which I thought was very nice as well, currently I'm listening to one of my sources from Deer Creek this year with 184's > UA-5 and it sounds very good as well, although perhaps not as beefy or complex as the Mixpre or V3, it's still quite listenable. I think everything that's been suggested in this thread for a pre for these mics has been thoughtful and right on the money. On a side note... Anyone ever run a Portico with 184's? Wondering how that might sound.
Good luck Fitz, post what you end up with!
J

[page]

I was the one who had mentioned to Fitz that the km184's have a hot output stage and to make sure he had enough padding on his rig to deal with it. I mention this to most everyone who asks because the day I got my Mixpre I ran out and plugged it in to my 184's and MR-1 and went into a loud show(New Mastersounds), and got blown out, bigtime.

I knew I'd heard that somewhere else.  Now I remember, it was while we were waiting for the sun to go down one afternoon, maybe Sunday after the acoustic set.

I have to run -20dB inline pads before the Mixpre to tone it down. Yes, this is ultimately an issue with what the MR-1 can handle signal wise, I might have been able to get away with running off the tape out on the mixpre(doubtful though), but I still feel it's a valid warning because in the whole chain it's something that needs to be thought of, and can really ruin your night out, especially for someone who is new to mics.

I concur, gotta think about what's going on and where. (and yes, from experience, it's the MR-1 that is the limitation).

The tape out on the mixpre should be a consumer signal, it says the tape output clips at +11 while the xlrs clip at like +20. It may not solve your problem necessarily, but it might give you the option to run without the attenuators. Feeding it a weak tone signal, I bet the tape output is about 10db cooler. Food for thought is all.

I feel it's especially precarious when you don't have an on-mic attenuator to fall back on, and your pre has no switchable pads. As for preamp choices, Mixpre/MP-2 sound great with the 184's, I ran a V3 with them at the Greek this summer which I thought was very nice as well, currently I'm listening to one of my sources from Deer Creek this year with 184's > UA-5 and it sounds very good as well, although perhaps not as beefy or complex as the Mixpre or V3, it's still quite listenable. I think everything that's been suggested in this thread for a pre for these mics has been thoughtful and right on the money. On a side note... Anyone ever run a Portico with 184's? Wondering how that might sound.

I dug up the specs for the D50 (cause I'm looking at one) and it has comparable specs to the M10 which is in that pro +4dbu input signal tolerance. The ADC caves at like +24dbu or something like that so I think he'll be ok. I can't remember the exact number, but it's real close to what the 722 can tolerate.

Whatever Fitz chooses, I suspect he'll be happy. 

[taperj]

I knew I'd heard that somewhere else.  Now I remember, it was while we were waiting for the sun to go down one afternoon, maybe Sunday after the acoustic set.
 

Yep, I do believe we discussed that out at Festival 8 page, good memory

The tape out on the mixpre should be a consumer signal, it says the tape output clips at +11 while the xlrs clip at like +20. It may not solve your problem necessarily, but it might give you the option to run without the attenuators. Feeding it a weak tone signal, I bet the tape output is about 10db cooler. Food for thought is all.

Yeah, I had thought about the tape out as I had mentioned but since the MR-1 is fairly unique in that it has 2 balanced 1/8" ins as opposed to a single stereo mini input I would have had to get a new cable to run off of it. At the time I just went with the attenuators since I had them and they proved to work fine. My MR-1 finally died after rolling about 200 shows a few weeks ago so it's now a moot point for me.

Whatever Fitz chooses, I suspect he'll be happy. 

Agreed.

[jbell]

What deck are you planning on replacing the MR1 with?

I knew I'd heard that somewhere else.  Now I remember, it was while we were waiting for the sun to go down one afternoon, maybe Sunday after the acoustic set.
 

Yep, I do believe we discussed that out at Festival 8 page, good memory

The tape out on the mixpre should be a consumer signal, it says the tape output clips at +11 while the xlrs clip at like +20. It may not solve your problem necessarily, but it might give you the option to run without the attenuators. Feeding it a weak tone signal, I bet the tape output is about 10db cooler. Food for thought is all.

Yeah, I had thought about the tape out as I had mentioned but since the MR-1 is fairly unique in that it has 2 balanced 1/8" ins as opposed to a single stereo mini input I would have had to get a new cable to run off of it. At the time I just went with the attenuators since I had them and they proved to work fine. My MR-1 finally died after rolling about 200 shows a few weeks ago so it's now a moot point for me.

Whatever Fitz chooses, I suspect he'll be happy. 

Agreed.

[piperedworm]

TaperJ is getting a 788

 

Fitz - I have the Skm 184 and run them directly into a SD 702.  Love the sound I get!

[taperj]

TaperJ is getting a 788

Oh dear... I guess the cat's out of the bag.  Yeah jmbell, I'm teetering between a 744t and a 788t-SSD right now, I bought an Olympus LS-10 to run on until I make the decision, I had to tape Mike Gordon a month or so ago and in a pinch I just got what was available at guitar center the night before which was the LS-10.

[Neilyboy]

TaperJ is getting a 788

Oh dear... I guess the cat's out of the bag.  Yeah jmbell, I'm teetering between a 744t and a 788t-SSD right now, I bought an Olympus LS-10 to run on until I make the decision, I had to tape Mike Gordon a month or so ago and in a pinch I just got what was available at guitar center the night before which was the LS-10.

Dang wish I had known I would have shipped ya my M10 for ya to use in the meantime.. Oh well guess you can re-sell that LS-10 or keep it as a backup/patcher!

Neil

[Fitz]

Ok.. so I am pulling the trigger on used Grace Designs Lunatec V2, the feedback you guys have provided has been great and I really appreciate it.. I am begining to understnd the expense of this hobby even before I make my first recording, but it was choise I made to "buy right versus buy twice..."

Anyway, as I research the V2 I am not sure how you power it while in the field.  Can someone provide some guidence on that?  Assume the longest field recording I will do is 4 - 6 hours providing 48V phantom power to a pair of Neumann 184KM mics.

Thanks

[sparkey]

Anyway, as I research the V2 I am not sure how you power it while in the field. 

Have you bought one yet?  I'm itching to buy a camera and have a V2 with two Wally World batteries that I might sell.

[jbell]

   

Ok.. so I am pulling the trigger on used Grace Designs Lunatec V2, the feedback you guys have provided has been great and I really appreciate it.. I am begining to understnd the expense of this hobby even before I make my first recording, but it was choise I made to "buy right versus buy twice..."

Anyway, as I research the V2 I am not sure how you power it while in the field.  Can someone provide some guidence on that?  Assume the longest field recording I will do is 4 - 6 hours providing 48V phantom power to a pair of Neumann 184KM mics.

Thanks

[sparkey]

thanks guy

Why don't you get an optimod V3 since you have a D50? 

Ok.. so I am pulling the trigger on used Grace Designs Lunatec V2, the feedback you guys have provided has been great and I really appreciate it.. I am begining to understnd the expense of this hobby even before I make my first recording, but it was choise I made to "buy right versus buy twice..."

Anyway, as I research the V2 I am not sure how you power it while in the field.  Can someone provide some guidence on that?  Assume the longest field recording I will do is 4 - 6 hours providing 48V phantom power to a pair of Neumann 184KM mics.

Thanks

[page]

Ok.. so I am pulling the trigger on used Grace Designs Lunatec V2, the feedback you guys have provided has been great and I really appreciate it.. I am begining to understnd the expense of this hobby even before I make my first recording, but it was choise I made to "buy right versus buy twice..."

Anyway, as I research the V2 I am not sure how you power it while in the field.  Can someone provide some guidence on that?  Assume the longest field recording I will do is 4 - 6 hours providing 48V phantom power to a pair of Neumann 184KM mics.

Thanks

Why don't you get an optimod V3 since you have a D50? 

thanks guy

 

it doesn't help that a used optimod V3 is just about double his stated budget limit.

[jbell]

Wasn't trying to step on your toes!   It does ask best pre for a D50.  I changed the post to make you happy.   

[sparkey]

Wasn't trying to step on your toes!   It does ask best pre for a D50.  I changed the post to make you happy.   

I didn't figure you were intentionally trying to step on anyones toes....just...uh...yeah :-)

[F.O.Bean]

I knew I'd heard that somewhere else.  Now I remember, it was while we were waiting for the sun to go down one afternoon, maybe Sunday after the acoustic set.
 

Yep, I do believe we discussed that out at Festival 8 page, good memory

The tape out on the mixpre should be a consumer signal, it says the tape output clips at +11 while the xlrs clip at like +20. It may not solve your problem necessarily, but it might give you the option to run without the attenuators. Feeding it a weak tone signal, I bet the tape output is about 10db cooler. Food for thought is all.

Yeah, I had thought about the tape out as I had mentioned but since the MR-1 is fairly unique in that it has 2 balanced 1/8" ins as opposed to a single stereo mini input I would have had to get a new cable to run off of it. At the time I just went with the attenuators since I had them and they proved to work fine. My MR-1 finally died after rolling about 200 shows a few weeks ago so it's now a moot point for me.

Whatever Fitz chooses, I suspect he'll be happy. 

Agreed.

It died only after 200+ shows That BLOWS!!!! I thought the MR1 and MR1k were more rugged and higher quality than that

[F.O.Bean]

I wouldve gone w/ a V2 as well, so good choice there

And I use 7.2v 4500mah RC Car Batteries to power my 722. They would work equally well powering a v2 because i used to power my old v2 w/ them. 2 or 3 7.2v 4500mah rc batteries would power your v2 fior MANY HOURS Just get an rc battery plug>4-pin xlr cable made like i hyave and youre good to go. Only takes around 2 hrs to charge a DEAD battery too I also used to use ecocharge  batteries to power my v2/v3 but those are like dinosaurs now. But if you can find ONE 7.2v ecocharge and charger, then you'll be SET, and that would weight just about asd much as the 3x7.2v 4500mah rc batteries....

Good luck on yer quest