Topic: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4

[Todd R]

One last thing Todd please explain to me how you can have two different sets of mics that will sound the same when A- they are not the same B- they are not in the same position in the room? How can you use that test to determine sound quality of a cable? Please help me to understand this? I wish people would actually listen to what I am trying to say. I am not here trying to sell anything I am just saying if you want to sell high end cables great! sell them but I think doing a simple test like this would surly show the benefits of the high end cable vrs the regular cable right?

Ok, along with Brian, I think we are going in circles here and I don't have much new to add, so this'll hopefully be the end of responses from me.  But a few things:  1)  I hear what you're saying Chris, but I really am getting the feeling you're not hearing what I'm saying.  Which is again, no test, no matter what, will be perfect, so I use all the information available to me and make judgements based on that information, extrapolating where I can, making assumptions based on my own knowledge and experience as to what I think is causing what I hear.  And the more testing and experience, the more I'm confident I am with my judgements. 

(2) I'd like to make clear that I am not trying to justify anything to anyone or sell anyone anything, I'm just commenting on the value of comparisons and what can be gleaned from them -- no hidden agendas.  I haven't sold any mic cables in months, and I'm still trying to decide if I'll continue to make cables at all in the future.  (And if I do, it'll only be until I use up my current cable stock.)  I've never made any comparisons of the cables I did make available to people, whether flawed or not.  I don't think that is necessarily a good way of showing my cables are/were worth the $, and for that matter, I don't think "proving" anything is needed.  People need to decide for themselves, and in that vein I long ago placed a set of my cables into the gear loaner program so that people could use them and test them however they wanted and come to their own conclusions.  As I said before, buying decisions are made on lots of bases, not just sound.  Product quality, sellers reputation, service, re-sale value, look and feel, sound quality, who knows what all.  Why does does sound quality have to be proven so badly? 

I've got to say, you really sound like you've got a chip on your shoulders about cables in particular.  Do you spend that much time making controlled tests of your mics vs. schoeps and neumanns available to your potential customers, or your preamps to Grace Lunatecs?  Or if you want to go the other direction, controlled tests of your preamps to the internal preamp of the iRiver h120 or Edirol R09?  Not trying to slam you, but why is rigorous testing of cables so important and seemingly a moral requirement when you don't feel the need to do similar types of tests of the equipment you sell?

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Do you spend that much time making controlled tests of your mics vs. schoeps and neumanns available to your potential customers, or your preamps to Grace Lunatecs?  Or if you want to go the other direction, controlled tests of your preamps to the internal preamp of the iRiver h120 or Edirol R09?  Not trying to slam you, but why is rigorous testing of cables so important and seemingly a moral requirement when you don't feel the need to do similar types of tests of the equipment you sell?

[jeromejello]

I wish people would actually listen to what I am trying to say.

off the top of my head......

Maybe we're all just sick of hearing the dribble that comes out of your mouth most of the time before you delete those comments or threads. 

Maybe people just want you to build affordable stealth packages and leave the gear talk to people that work on and use gear like Busman.

Maybe people are sick of having to correct you on topics you have no clue about.

Maybe people are sick of you having a condescending attitude towards everyone save for your own ticket begging thread.

Maybe we trust what a taper has to say more than what you have to say.

 

way to piss in the cheerios church... while there were some issues with the comp, at least someone took the fargin time to do it.  i found it in spirit to be very useful.

now lets bring the stock, busman, and oade shootout to the table... whos got my heady 3 way splitter...

 

[Church-Audio]

One last thing Todd please explain to me how you can have two different sets of mics that will sound the same when A- they are not the same B- they are not in the same position in the room? How can you use that test to determine sound quality of a cable? Please help me to understand this? I wish people would actually listen to what I am trying to say. I am not here trying to sell anything I am just saying if you want to sell high end cables great! sell them but I think doing a simple test like this would surly show the benefits of the high end cable vrs the regular cable right?

Ok, along with Brian, I think we are going in circles here and I don't have much new to add, so this'll hopefully be the end of responses from me.  But a few things:  1)  I hear what you're saying Chris, but I really am getting the feeling you're not hearing what I'm saying.  Which is again, no test, no matter what, will be perfect, so I use all the information available to me and make judgements based on that information, extrapolating where I can, making assumptions based on my own knowledge and experience as to what I think is causing what I hear.  And the more testing and experience, the more I'm confident I am with my judgements. 

(2) I'd like to make clear that I am not trying to justify anything to anyone or sell anyone anything, I'm just commenting on the value of comparisons and what can be gleaned from them -- no hidden agendas.  I haven't sold any mic cables in months, and I'm still trying to decide if I'll continue to make cables at all in the future.  (And if I do, it'll only be until I use up my current cable stock.)  I've never made any comparisons of the cables I did make available to people, whether flawed or not.  I don't think that is necessarily a good way of showing my cables are/were worth the $, and for that matter, I don't think "proving" anything is needed.  People need to decide for themselves, and in that vein I long ago placed a set of my cables into the gear loaner program so that people could use them and test them however they wanted and come to their own conclusions.  As I said before, buying decisions are made on lots of bases, not just sound.  Product quality, sellers reputation, service, re-sale value, look and feel, sound quality, who knows what all.  Why does does sound quality have to be proven so badly? 

I've got to say, you really sound like you've got a chip on your shoulders about cables in particular.  Do you spend that much time making controlled tests of your mics vs. schoeps and neumanns available to your potential customers, or your preamps to Grace Lunatecs?  Or if you want to go the other direction, controlled tests of your preamps to the internal preamp of the iRiver h120 or Edirol R09?  Not trying to slam you, but why is rigorous testing of cables so important and seemingly a moral requirement when you don't feel the need to do similar types of tests of the equipment you sell?

I do test my products.. Actually but I am not out here saying that a cheap $24 mic cable is not as good as a $250 mic cable. I am not saying my preamp compares to a Grace as a matter of fact I have never said my products are better then anyone's. That's why I dont have a moral issue and never will. PS every single preamp I sell and mic is tested before it ships how do you test your cables? before you ship them do you listen to each one?

EDIT....

This was unnecessary. And immature and I owe some of the people in this thread an apology even though I was not ment to be directed at any one person it does not matter. I should never have said this it was wrong to get so worked up over a cable! I am sorry. I still stand by my method for testing but its so silly to get this stupid over a dumb test.

[cshepherd]

Wow.  I'm pretty speechless.  I just found this thread.

Chris

[Todd R]

Original post pulled since I don't even want to remember how much this has all pissed me off.  I've got to remember I hang out on ts.com for fun.

[OFOTD]

Tough day on the board for sure.  Luckily I got to take a break for a little bit to step away from the computer, take a deep breath and get my head and thoughts straight.  It always seems like the strangest of threads that the crazy stuff happens.

First I want to thank ToddR and Chris Shepard for their patience and them just being a part of the community.  I appreciate their work and contributions even when threads get crazy.  ToddR in fact has helped me indirectly so many times on this site that I lost count.

Now as far as Chris Church is concerned I have many issues as it seems others do too with him.  I have never questioned his products, their quality or their place in the taping world.  What I have questioned is his honesty, integrity and demeanor.  I am somewhat concerned  at all of the editing and deleting of posts he has made that were derogatory towards me personally as well as others once he was taken to task for those derogatory posts.  Once and its defending yourself, twice its a mistake in the heat of the moment but three or more in a week is a pattern and a personality trait and tells alot to me about ones character.

Obviously I missed the latest post that was edited in this thread as the number of PM's and strangely enough the amount of emails I received that all pretty much started the same "I can't believe what he just posted......".  If someone has copied or quoted that post or otherwise knows its contents I would appreciate a PM or email only as to its contents and not a public post as Brian Ska kindly asked that we both "stop your personal blathering back and forth."  in public.


now on to the fun stuff........

I don't think there is any real debate on the sonic qualities that do exist with different types and qualities of cables.  How much or how little is subject to endless debate obviously.  For me I know what my rig sounds like.  I tape and I listen and i've grown pretty used to what my setup sound like.  I feel with my experience as a taper as well as my familiarity with my rig that I could tell the difference between different types of cables.  At the end of the day though I know that there are many other factors within my control that will have a greater effect on my tapes than cables.

For those who are just starting to explore the world of cables and the world of modded gear ask those people who have the gear you're interested in about them.   Listen to people who use the equipment you're interested not just those that talk about it.  In the end only you can decide what improvement or upgrades are worth your money.  My gear is in my sig line and i'd be happy to publicly or privately discuss any and all of it.  Just ask.

Thanks busman for starting this crazy thread and I look forward to running some real world comps with the Oade R4's and your Busman R4's soon.  It ought to be fun!

Happy taping friends!

[MattH]

Tough day on the board for sure.  Luckily I got to take a break for a little bit to step away from the computer, take a deep breath and get my head and thoughts straight.  It always seems like the strangest of threads that the crazy stuff happens.

First I want to thank ToddR and Chris Shepard for their patience and them just being a part of the community.  I appreciate their work and contributions even when threads get crazy.  ToddR in fact has helped me indirectly so many times on this site that I lost count.

Now as far as Chris Church is concerned I have many issues as it seems others do too with him.  I have never questioned his products, their quality or their place in the taping world.  What I have questioned is his honesty, integrity and demeanor.  I am somewhat concerned  at all of the editing and deleting of posts he has made that were derogatory towards me personally as well as others once he was taken to task for those derogatory posts.  Once and its defending yourself, twice its a mistake in the heat of the moment but three or more in a week is a pattern and a personality trait and tells alot to me about ones character.

Obviously I missed the latest post that was edited in this thread as the number of PM's and strangely enough the amount of emails I received that all pretty much started the same "I can't believe what he just posted......".  If someone has copied or quoted that post or otherwise knows its contents I would appreciate a PM or email only as to its contents and not a public post as Brian Ska kindly asked that we both "stop your personal blathering back and forth."  in public.


now on to the fun stuff........

I don't think there is any real debate on the sonic qualities that do exist with different types and qualities of cables.  How much or how little is subject to endless debate obviously.  For me I know what my rig sounds like.  I tape and I listen and i've grown pretty used to what my setup sound like.  I feel with my experience as a taper as well as my familiarity with my rig that I could tell the difference between different types of cables.  At the end of the day though I know that there are many other factors within my control that will have a greater effect on my tapes than cables.

For those who are just starting to explore the world of cables and the world of modded gear ask those people who have the gear you're interested in about them.   Listen to people who use the equipment you're interested not just those that talk about it.  In the end only you can decide what improvement or upgrades are worth your money.  My gear is in my sig line and i'd be happy to publicly or privately discuss any and all of it.  Just ask.

Thanks busman for starting this crazy thread and I look forward to running some real world comps with the Oade R4's and your Busman R4's soon.  It ought to be fun!

Happy taping friends!

I agree, far too many apologies being made on a routine basis by a certain individual. I read Todd's deleted post and felt he had every right to say what he did.

[Brian]

well damn.....i suppose i'll save my reply for the pm's. todd made some great points and didn't get a chance to reply until now.

[Brian Skalinder]

well damn.....i suppose i'll save my reply for the pm's. todd made some great points and didn't get a chance to reply until now.

If your points are relevant to the intended content of the discussion, post 'em.  If it's personal schlock, go PMs.  $0.02

[Brian]

basically,

i realized after Todd's reply to my last post, that i should have left out cables in my end of the discussion.  Hell even i own cables made by todd, deadheaded, and leegeddy   making cables is one thing....modifying microphones, preamps, recorders, and the like are a different story.  If somebody is going to be modifying another company's product for a profit, then should at least be prepared to do the basic tests necessary to ensure a consistent product from unit to unit.  Further, if somebody is going to perform a serious mod like, lets say the rebuilding of the analog input stage of a preamp, then i'm of the opinion that person should be willing and able to perform basic electrical testing in addition to aural analysis through a speaker or visual analysis through software on a computers.

i realize these points veer away from the discussion about comparisons, but like what i thought chris was referencing, i think it's important these tests be done before we get comparisons.  many peole have stated why comparisons like these are good for the taping community so no need to reiterate that.

i think that was it.

[poorlyconditioned]

basically,

i realized after Todd's reply to my last post, that i should have left out cables in my end of the discussion.  Hell even i own cables made by todd, deadheaded, and leegeddy   making cables is one thing....modifying microphones, preamps, recorders, and the like are a different story.  If somebody is going to be modifying another company's product for a profit, then should at least be prepared to do the basic tests necessary to ensure a consistent product from unit to unit.  Further, if somebody is going to perform a serious mod like, lets say the rebuilding of the analog input stage of a preamp, then i'm of the opinion that person should be willing and able to perform basic electrical testing in addition to aural analysis through a speaker or visual analysis through software on a computers.

i realize these points veer away from the discussion about comparisons, but like what i thought chris was referencing, i think it's important these tests be done before we get comparisons.  many peole have stated why comparisons like these are good for the taping community so no need to reiterate that.

i think that was it.

Not everyone agrees with me on this point, but, if I am a *paying customer* for gear/mods, I would like to know what is inside.  I don't need a schematic, but exact chips/parts replaced and part #s, are important to me.  Sure, there are some DIY types who may copy this stuff, but IMO there is still room here for both for-profit and DIY types.  I would even hazard to guess that DIY types (like myself) have contributed some ideas, direclty or indirectly to the for-profit types.

  Richard

[Brian]

oh and lastly.....we all know reputation can go lot further than the ability to publish specs when modifying gear and i realize this.

[Todd R]

Not everyone agrees with me on this point, but, if I am a *paying customer* for gear/mods, I would like to know what is inside.  I don't need a schematic, but exact chips/parts replaced and part #s, are important to me.  Sure, there are some DIY types who may copy this stuff, but IMO there is still room here for both for-profit and DIY types.  I would even hazard to guess that DIY types (like myself) have contributed some ideas, direclty or indirectly to the for-profit types.

  Richard

I'm torn on this issue.  Sharing the design of circuits I think is great, and I think it helps the real modder/DIY types to think about things and hopefully make even more revisions and changes to improve things.

I'm a bit more afraid that sharing specifics on parts used, esp for instance op amps, might put a damper on experimentation.  People might instead say, oh Doug Oade uses this op amp in his warm mod, so I'm going to use it.  Op amps can impart a definite flavor to the sound of gear, and it's great to have people try different amps to see what they do for the sound rather than blindly following other people's lead.  There's already lots of info on the potential candidates -- been awhile since I've looked into it, but eg. AD712, LM6174, OP2134, THAT1510, INA217, etc. 

It seems better to me to discuss the already known various candidates that might be used.  And also discuss what types of op amp parameters can be used to determine if the amp will work at all as a replacement (not just basic functionality, but current draw/supply, etc) and discuss how various parameters might be expected to affect the sound -- eg., slew rate, voltage induce noise, CMRR, etc.  All this seems like it would be better to spur DIYers experimentation rather than essentially saying -- go use this particular op amp as a replacement, it'll make your gear sound better.

I'm not positive about this, but I guess that's the direction I'm leaning.

Edit to say:  Not to suggest this is what you would do with the info, Richard.  We all you are a tinkerer extraordinairre.    But in general, I fear that providing specific part numbers would dampen experimentation, not enhance it.

[poorlyconditioned]

Not everyone agrees with me on this point, but, if I am a *paying customer* for gear/mods, I would like to know what is inside.  I don't need a schematic, but exact chips/parts replaced and part #s, are important to me.  Sure, there are some DIY types who may copy this stuff, but IMO there is still room here for both for-profit and DIY types.  I would even hazard to guess that DIY types (like myself) have contributed some ideas, direclty or indirectly to the for-profit types.

  Richard

I'm torn on this issue.  Sharing the design of circuits I think is great, and I think it helps the real modder/DIY types to think about things and hopefully make even more revisions and changes to improve things.

I'm a bit more afraid that sharing specifics on parts used, esp for instance op amps, might put a damper on experimentation.  People might instead say, oh Doug Oade uses this op amp in his warm mod, so I'm going to use it.  Op amps can impart a definite flavor to the sound of gear, and it's great to have people try different amps to see what they do for the sound rather than blindly following other people's lead.  There's already lots of info on the potential candidates -- been awhile since I've looked into it, but eg. AD712, LM6174, OP2134, THAT1510, INA217, etc. 

It seems better to me to discuss the already known various candidates that might be used.  And also discuss what types of op amp parameters can be used to determine if the amp will work at all as a replacement (not just basic functionality, but current draw/supply, etc) and discuss how various parameters might be expected to affect the sound -- eg., slew rate, voltage induce noise, CMRR, etc.  All this seems like it would be better to spur DIYers experimentation rather than essentially saying -- go use this particular op amp as a replacement, it'll make your gear sound better.

I'm not positive about this, but I guess that's the direction I'm leaning.

Edit to say:  Not to suggest this is what you would do with the info, Richard.  We all you are a tinkerer extraordinairre.    But in general, I fear that providing specific part numbers would dampen experimentation, not enhance it.

OK, let's get this party started!

I have been using AD8512 (fet input) opamps in the R4, both the first (instrumentation amp) and second (buffer) stages.  These run off +/-5V.  The stock unit, NJM2068 can go in the dumpster!  I'm pretty happy with these.  Perhaps I could get lower noise, but they are fine for now.  Oh yeah, I removed the series 10k resistor that is used for the line/mic attenuator.  My inputs are fixed to mic input only now.

OK, the problem I have now is that there are ADC drivers that must run off only +5V (single sided).  The stock unit has NJM2100D.  I tried OP262, which I think works pretty well, but I'm open to suggestions.  Another alternative would be a CMOS chip, like AD8656.  This is a bit noiser, though.  And I don't know how good CMOS sounds for audio.  On my TODO list...

Oh yeah, some people have suggested using very high speed "video type" opamps, but I am not comfortable with this.  In fact, I tried using these for ADC drivers, but got oscillation problems.  Not recommended IMO.

  Richard

PS: Whoever is stealing tickets.  Knock it off!  I'm providing valueable information and discussion here.  If you don't like it, go away.