Author Topic: Looking to record live shows - need a solid portable device (Read 10579 times)

deadjim · « **on:** May 16, 2011, 01:32:16 AM »

So far I'm liking the ZOOM h4 or even the Sony PCMD50.. However, I have yet to order a device I am only researching.

Basically I'm looking to record live shows of local bands, professionally, and am looking for a solid device. Preferably I'd like to use built-in mics. I will be holding the device and would prefer not to hold a mic. However if I go the Mic route, I'd assume any regular recording device would work as long as it could record the frequency I'd need as well be phantom powered. So I'd like to know what experienced users here have to recommend as far as portable recording. I'd like a nice fat solid sound, free of distortion, that captures a wide range of frequencies, in order to reproduce the live sound as accurately as possible

If anybody has any suggestions I'd greatly appreciate it! Thanks

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #1 on:** May 16, 2011, 02:42:33 AM »

if you need the digital in the D-50 is fine
otherwise get s M-10

deadjim · « **Reply #2 on:** May 16, 2011, 03:01:54 AM »

I'm not sure if I like the mic placement on the M-10, but I'm adding it to the list of ones to look into. Thanks. The specifications on the two are nearly identical..

aaronji · « **Reply #3 on:** May 16, 2011, 04:36:05 AM »

Quote from: deadjim on May 16, 2011, 01:32:16 AM

Basically I'm looking to record live shows of local bands, professionally, and am looking for a solid device. Preferably I'd like to use built-in mics. I will be holding the device and would prefer not to hold a mic.

If I were in your shoes, I would scrap the idea of hand-holding and consider a stand or a tripod. You'll get some handling noise and probably some movement issues holding it that you could eliminate in that way...I would also consider external mics. You'll have more flexibility with a stereo pair (in terms of placement, polar pattern and configuration) than you will with built-ins.

As for solidity, the PCM-D50 is pretty well put together...

TimeBandit · « **Reply #4 on:** May 16, 2011, 06:30:05 AM »

3 advices for good reasonable. rig:

1. pcm-m10 + ext. preamp + mics
2. pcm-m10 + ext. preamp + mics
3. pcm-m10 + ext. preamp + mics

If you want to use the internals use a tripod or something you can store safely the recorder. so it stays safe, no grabbling noise on the record and good sound.

trying to hold a recorder with internals with your hand on just one same position, i bet you´re calling the doctor because of stressed hand and arm after doing it for an hour or how long the event goes ;-)

jbell · « **Reply #5 on:** May 16, 2011, 07:41:22 AM »

I agree with the sony pcm m10 along with an external pre and mics!! If you plan on using the internal mics on a recorder I would go with the D50.

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #6 on:** May 16, 2011, 10:23:13 PM »

Quote from: jmbell on May 16, 2011, 07:41:22 AM

I agree with the sony pcm m10 along with an external pre and mics!! If you plan on using the internal mics on a recorder I would go with the D50.

owainturner · « **Reply #7 on:** May 18, 2011, 08:03:00 AM »

I agree... From my experiance you're recordings will be somewhere in the region of infinatley better with external mics + preamp... If you're lookin' at on-body, low-key recording CA-CAFS and UGLY with a M10 is mega and will turn out better than the internals of those devices.

aaronji · « **Reply #8 on:** May 18, 2011, 08:47:53 AM »

Really, you probably won't even need a pre for most situations. A small, inexpensive battery box will do the trick nicely with a decent recorder, such as the M10...

deadjim · « **Reply #9 on:** May 20, 2011, 03:50:05 AM »

No vouchers for the Tascam DR-100? Looks comparable to the M10 as far as specs, but with decent internals - omni and cardiod, xlr inputs, phantom power. thoughts?

aaronji · « **Reply #10 on:** May 20, 2011, 09:39:37 AM »

^^^ I don't have any personal experience with the DR-100, but from what I have read (here and elsewhere), there are some issues with battery life and the pres aren't that great. I have also read about some build quality issues. Sort of big compared to something like the M10 or R09HR too.

Like I said, not from personal experience, so take it with the necessary grain of salt...

techgui · « **Reply #11 on:** May 20, 2011, 02:38:05 PM »

Quote from: deadjim on May 20, 2011, 03:50:05 AM

No vouchers for the Tascam DR-100? Looks comparable to the M10 as far as specs, but with decent internals - omni and cardiod, xlr inputs, phantom power. thoughts?

I would consider the Tascam Dr-2d. The internals are cards and it brings some unique advantages to the table. Like you can record dual stereo tracks with it. You can record with the internal mics and external stereo mics / line input simultaneously to dual stereo tracks. Battery life is about 5 to 6 hrs. I just use rechargeables.

TimeBandit · « **Reply #12 on:** May 20, 2011, 06:55:17 PM »

Dr-2d with newest firmware has nice running time too. if you want to do multichannel (SBD pull + internal mics) maybe thats a choice. or just being safe with the backup recording mode, you record with "hot" gain" and the recorder does simultanous recording of another track but -6 db lower.

yltfan · « **Reply #13 on:** May 20, 2011, 07:24:58 PM »

Quote from: deadjim on May 16, 2011, 01:32:16 AM

Basically I'm looking to record live shows of local bands, professionally, and am looking for a solid device.

What do you mean "professionally"?

deadjim · « **Reply #14 on:** May 21, 2011, 01:29:55 AM »

Quote from: yltfan on May 20, 2011, 07:24:58 PM

Quote from: deadjim on May 16, 2011, 01:32:16 AM

Basically I'm looking to record live shows of local bands, professionally, and am looking for a solid device.

What do you mean "professionally"?

Meaning I record their live shows for a price and they (the band) get a decent quality sounding recording as well as video if they choose. By professionally I just mean "not amateur" but I won't be charging an arm and a leg either, so I'm not going all out

rastasean · « **Reply #15 on:** May 21, 2011, 09:13:41 AM »

If I was in a band and someone wanted to charge me, I would want a mix and mastered copy of the performance from something like the soundboard. otherwise, if we're just talking a two audience channels, I would do it myself and not pay somebody.
I'm pretty sure all first times are amateur so just come to realize that it will take practice to perfect this.

deadjim · « **Reply #16 on:** May 21, 2011, 06:37:39 PM »

Quote from: rastasean on May 21, 2011, 09:13:41 AM

If I was in a band and someone wanted to charge me, I would want a mix and mastered copy of the performance from something like the soundboard. otherwise, if we're just talking a two audience channels, I would do it myself and not pay somebody.
I'm pretty sure all first times are amateur so just come to realize that it will take practice to perfect this.

I agree. I've been in several bands, and when I wanted a show recorded I did it myself.. however, you'd be suprised how many people want a live recording and are willing to pay for it. I already have 4 bands asking me to do their show and I haven't even started yet. For $50/$75 bucks a pop, it's worth it to them. Most simply don't have the right equipment, don't have a person to do it for them, and don't care about running through the soundboard. I don't plan on running through the soundboard, because then you have to start working with the venue - and I'm not going that route. Plus you don't get a "live" feel.. and mics will do a decent enough job to capture a performance.
I've been writing music for 10 years, playing music for 16, and recording music for 8.. Field recorders, however, aren't my forte, but it's not too much different. There's just too damn many of them.

There's a large local scene here, and many would love to have someone record their stuff with video, to toss up on youtube

techgui · « **Reply #17 on:** May 21, 2011, 07:18:26 PM »

With the Dr-2d you can record both from the internal cards and the sound board. Then you can mix on post to maintain that live energy.

rastasean · « **Reply #18 on:** May 21, 2011, 07:36:15 PM »

It sounds like you're more interested in making money rather than promoting undiscovered/not too popular bands. Most of us consider this a hobby but I know there are some professionals on here who record orchestras, so we generally don't charge for something we already like doing.

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #19 on:** May 21, 2011, 09:16:36 PM »

I occassionally do live "demos" for small bands for around $50.00

deadjim · « **Reply #20 on:** May 21, 2011, 09:21:02 PM »

Quote from: rastasean on May 21, 2011, 07:36:15 PM

It sounds like you're more interested in making money rather than promoting undiscovered/not too popular bands. Most of us consider this a hobby but I know there are some professionals on here who record orchestras, so we generally don't charge for something we already like doing.

Right.. I'm not promoting. I'm providing a service to the bands themselves. There is some talent in the local area here and I've helped out before recording shows with my SM-57 and mini-disc recorder back in the day, and I had fun doing it. But you won't see me going to every show, recording music I could care less about.

Quote from: Bean on May 21, 2011, 09:16:36 PM

I occassionally do live "demos" for small bands for around $50.00

Thank you.

earmonger · « **Reply #21 on:** May 22, 2011, 01:47:30 AM »

If you're going to charge $50 -$75 a pop, and a great recorder like the Sony PCM-M10 is only about $230, ditto the Tascam DR-2D--which you will make back after a handful of gigs-you should consider investing in some mics that will make the bands sound hi-fi rather than depending on built-ins.

Also, you may not have to work with the venue to record the soundboard. Shouldn't the band be able to give you permission to do that? They might also let you put some mics on a stand on the soundboard, where a simple stereo recording should sound optimum. If you are just standing in the crowd with a handheld, you're going to get conversation and crowd noise you don't want. Gigs are not studio sessions.

mepaca · « **Reply #22 on:** May 22, 2011, 12:42:21 PM »

Quote from: rastasean on May 21, 2011, 07:36:15 PM

It sounds like you're more interested in making money

What's wrong with getting paid to do what you love? It's one of the keys to happiness.

cashandkerouac · « **Reply #23 on:** May 22, 2011, 02:21:43 PM »

Quote from: aaronji on May 18, 2011, 08:47:53 AM

Really, you probably won't even need a pre for most situations. A small, inexpensive battery box will do the trick nicely with a decent recorder, such as the M10...

i use a sony m-10 and it's great. absolutely reliable, easy to use, compact. my vote is for the external pre and mics, and even at extremely loud shows i've used a pre-amp. if you use the line jack rather than the mic jack you won't have to worry about saturated levels. it's pretty much foolproof. the church audio CA14 and 9100 (or 9200) are a nice combo with the m-10 and very affordable.

aaronji · « **Reply #24 on:** May 23, 2011, 04:50:25 AM »

Quote from: cashandkerouac on May 22, 2011, 02:21:43 PM

i use a sony m-10 and it's great. absolutely reliable, easy to use, compact. my vote is for the external pre and mics, and even at extremely loud shows i've used a pre-amp. if you use the line jack rather than the mic jack you won't have to worry about saturated levels. it's pretty much foolproof. the church audio CA14 and 9100 (or 9200) are a nice combo with the m-10 and very affordable.

You don't need to worry about overloading the mic input on the M10 either. It can take a pretty hot signal; guysonic measured it at +2 dBu (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.msg1722931#msg1722931). Using a mic with a sensitivity of 6 mV/Pa, like a DPA 4061, that'll get you up to 138 dB SPL. I guess that the Church mics are around that level too. Even with considerably more sensitive mics (like DPA 4060, 20 mV/Pa), you can get up to 128 dB SPL.

That is freakin' loud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudest_band_in_the_world). 130 dB SPL is typically taken as the threshold of pain...

If you anticipate recording at those sorts of volumes, or anywhere close really, you could easily go mics > bb > line. Not to say you shouldn't get and use a pre if you want, and you might really need it for very quiet recording, but for the vast majority of shows it just isn't necessary with the M10. Compared to a pre, a battery box will save some size and some money too (for the next upgrade, of course)!

shpy · « **Reply #25 on:** April 04, 2016, 09:06:47 AM »

Please, can someone explain me, what portable recorder i need for decent sound while recording live shows

Now i have zoom h4n recorder and http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-2 mics.. I use 4CH and use both mics.. internal and external for different sounds and later i mix them. Zoom has a lot of features that i dont need. (i don't like zooms auto level, because it just reduce sound to -6db but not raise when i need. Sometimes in record one guitar has noticeable lower level, while camcorder records that sound better) Can someone suggest recorder with XLR and 4 tracks mode oriented to loud sound source for better quality ? Maybe in rock, metal live recording DR-40 would be better?

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #26 on:** April 04, 2016, 08:59:57 PM »

Quote from: shpy on April 04, 2016, 09:06:47 AM

Please, can someone explain me, what portable recorder i need for decent sound while recording live shows

Now i have zoom h4n recorder and http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-2 mics.. I use 4CH and use both mics.. internal and external for different sounds and later i mix them. Zoom has a lot of features that i dont need. (i don't like zooms auto level, because it just reduce sound to -6db but not raise when i need. Sometimes in record one guitar has noticeable lower level, while camcorder records that sound better) Can someone suggest recorder with XLR and 4 tracks mode oriented to loud sound source for better quality ? Maybe in rock, metal live recording DR-40 would be better?

Never ever, and I mean Never! use auto levels. to record music.. it will limit and compress the signals and sometimes give the effect of "breathing" when trying to "level" out the levels. the h4 should work fine just manually set and adjust recording levels.

shpy · « **Reply #27 on:** April 05, 2016, 03:47:23 AM »

buy if no auto levels.. in situation when sound guy during show changing levels of guitars, drums, vocals.. it not so great. Maybe After record i have to use normalization or what. Im not an expert with audio software also

earmonger · « **Reply #28 on:** April 05, 2016, 07:11:12 AM »

As above, don't use auto level. A real concert is not at the same level all the way through and auto will try and force it to be willl sound very unnatural. Auto is even worse for something like an interview, where it pumps up the SPACE between the words to be just as loud AS the words.

It's better to have the changes in volume that take place during a concert.

Bands tend to get louder as the set goes on. So set the manual level a little bit low to leave room for when it gets louder.

I have a Sony PCM-M10. It has a green light to indicate that it's at the optimum recording level. I set a level so the green light starts blinks on and off--a little low, but ready for peaks.

nulldogmas · « **Reply #29 on:** April 05, 2016, 07:01:50 PM »

Quote from: shpy on April 05, 2016, 03:47:23 AM

buy if no auto levels.. in situation when sound guy during show changing levels of guitars, drums, vocals.. it not so great. Maybe After record i have to use normalization or what. Im not an expert with audio software also

What I wish more recorders had is the old function from Rockbox where if the sound level rises to a point where it starts clipping, the recorder lowers the gain incrementally until it's back in the safe zone.

That said, it's really not that hard to adjust volume in post. Just select the part that doesn't sound loud enough (or sounds too loud) and shift the volume up or down 1-2dB at a time until it matches. Auto levels are EEEEVIL, don't touch them.