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Author Topic: Suggestions on a technique?  (Read 7588 times)

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Offline lsd2525

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Suggestions on a technique?
« on: January 16, 2016, 07:27:19 PM »
OK. Going to do a 007 job Friday night, national act on a "solo acoustic" tour. First row DFC balcony, 2200 seat theatre. Everything I get from there will be PA/room. My question: This will be one of those gigs where the audience applause between the songs will be louder (or at least louder in my seat) than the actual performance. I'm thinking I should run limiter "on" on the M10, set levels for the actual music part, and the limiter will take care of the crazy levels of applause. Good idea or no? I really don't want to deal with this in post; if there is a good way to deal with in post I'm all ears, but can anyone really tell when the loud audience reaction is beat down by the limiter? And if so, so what? Thoughts?
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2016, 12:08:40 AM »
OK. Going to do a 007 job Friday night, national act on a "solo acoustic" tour. First row DFC balcony, 2200 seat theatre. Everything I get from there will be PA/room. My question: This will be one of those gigs where the audience applause between the songs will be louder (or at least louder in my seat) than the actual performance. I'm thinking I should run limiter "on" on the M10, set levels for the actual music part, and the limiter will take care of the crazy levels of applause. Good idea or no? I really don't want to deal with this in post; if there is a good way to deal with in post I'm all ears, but can anyone really tell when the loud audience reaction is beat down by the limiter? And if so, so what? Thoughts?

I agree with your thinking, but be sure to run the level so the music is a good bit below the limiter. I imagine the M10 limiter is for speech, and therefore not optimally set up for music. I have no idea where the M10 limiter kicks in (-6, a wild guess) but I'd set the music well below that, and then let whatever horrible stuff the limiter does apply to the audience noise.
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Offline thunderbolt

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2016, 03:07:49 AM »
Your plan may prove to be the easiest, but with that kind of recording scenario, you'll get much better results by not limiting while recording.  Set levels for the music.  Unless it is an insanely loud, uncontrolled crowd, you should be able to compress/hard limit the audience in post fairly easily.  Takes some practice and experimentation, but worth it.  Only other choice is to edit out the crowd, but that takes away from the whole experience and why we tape.

Offline fandelive

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2016, 06:12:13 AM »
You have a blacony seat so I guess people around you won't raise their hands while clapping. My suggestions would be :

While recording :
* use cardioid (or hyper-cardioid) caps
* mount your mics at head/ears level
* don't set any limiter on the record device

In post :
* use a de-clicker to remove unwanted clap noise

I already taped a seated acoutic gig doing that way and did every unwanted noise minoring in post. I think I've got great results.
Good luck ;)
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Offline aaronji

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2016, 07:48:50 AM »
What boltman said.  Set your levels for the music and hard limit the applause in post.  I record a lot of jazz, where I encounter this regularly, and have found that you can pretty drastically limit the applause with no audible impact...

Offline lsd2525

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2016, 07:55:03 AM »
What boltman said.  Set your levels for the music and hard limit the applause in post.  I record a lot of jazz, where I encounter this regularly, and have found that you can pretty drastically limit the applause with no audible impact...

So I don't really need to worry about the applause going into the red because I can hard limit in post?
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Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2016, 08:07:56 AM »

So I don't really need to worry about the applause going into the red because I can hard limit in post?

I'd say you don't need to worry about the applause going into the red because applause that clips doesn't sound much different from regular applause. It's all just a bunch of sharp peaks.

You can go either way here, really. Turning on the limiter will reduce the clapping peaks on the fly, which (in my experience) sounds indistinguishable from reducing them in post. On the other hand, if you're recording 24-bit, you have plenty of data to work with even if set the levels fairly low and increase the volume in post.

What AJ said is most important: Make sure the music isn't clipping or triggering the limiter, and you're fine.

Offline lsd2525

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2016, 09:05:59 AM »

So I don't really need to worry about the applause going into the red because I can hard limit in post?

I'd say you don't need to worry about the applause going into the red because applause that clips doesn't sound much different from regular applause. It's all just a bunch of sharp peaks.

You can go either way here, really. Turning on the limiter will reduce the clapping peaks on the fly, which (in my experience) sounds indistinguishable from reducing them in post. On the other hand, if you're recording 24-bit, you have plenty of data to work with even if set the levels fairly low and increase the volume in post.

What AJ said is most important: Make sure the music isn't clipping or triggering the limiter, and you're fine.

Maybe I don't have a clear working knowledge of how the limiter works. I always thought that what the limiter did was to truncate the input when it hits 0 db in order to keep it from overloading. I saw someone on here mention something about -6dB. Am I off base here?
 
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Offline Lostbrook

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2016, 09:26:45 AM »
From the M10 manual:

"When the limiter is set to ON, the input sound that is too loud is adjusted automatically to the maximum input level to prevent sound distortion."   

"When the limiter is set to ON, the limiter function of the PCM recorder covers the input from the maximum input level to +12 dB.  If the input excceds this limit, sounds may be distorted."

I've never heard or seen any evidence of the limiter being triggered below 0.  I recorded an acoustic show yesterday and, having read this topic, I decided to let the limiter handle the applause.  As long as the applause doesn't go above +12, it's all good.  The audience was very respectful during the music and waited until the last note faded before applauding, so it will be very easy for me to isolate and lower the volume of the applause. 

Edit:  I set the music to peak at -12 and had occasional peaks at -6.  And it's impossible to tell the actual peak level of the applause while recording since it only registers as "OVER". 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 09:33:09 AM by Lostbrook »

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2016, 09:32:07 AM »

Maybe I don't have a clear working knowledge of how the limiter works. I always thought that what the limiter did was to truncate the input when it hits 0 db in order to keep it from overloading. I saw someone on here mention something about -6dB. Am I off base here?

Only reducing sounds over 0 dB would be the same as clipping, though. (The distortion comes from the flat-topped peaks when everything above 0 dB is reduced to a single value of 0 dB.) The only way for a limiter to actually work to prevent clipping is to start reducing volume at a point below 0 dB and then gradually reduce the slope of everything above that so that it peaks below 0 dB — on-the-fly dynamic compression, really.

Unfortunately, the M10 manual isn't much help here, saying only:

Quote
When the “LIMITER” is set to “ON,” the limiter function of the PCM recorder covers the input from the maximum input level to +12 dB. If the input exceeds this limit, sounds may be distorted.

So everything from X to +12 dB is dynamically compressed, presumably, but the value of X is an official mystery. Unless someone here has performed tests to try to determine it?

Offline Lostbrook

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2016, 09:49:40 AM »
I can't find it in the manual at the moment but I thought I read something about the M10 recording a parallel track at a lower level and substituting it when exceeding 0 with the limiter on.  I don't have time to search for something more authoritative at the moment, but I did find this:

http://esem.name/?pcmm10

"There's a clever built-in 'digital' limiter, which records a shadow track at a lower level of -12dB . Once the main track level clips, the unit replaces (via crossfade) the distorted segment with the backup recording, normalised to 0db."

Offline aaronji

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2016, 10:22:12 AM »
You can go either way here, really. Turning on the limiter will reduce the clapping peaks on the fly, which (in my experience) sounds indistinguishable from reducing them in post. On the other hand, if you're recording 24-bit, you have plenty of data to work with even if set the levels fairly low and increase the volume in post.

An advantage to doing it in post is that you can apply the limiter exactly where, and to the extent, you want...

Plus, as the previous few posts demonstrate, this function is poorly documented for a lot of recorders, so you don't even really know what the thing is doing.

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2016, 10:31:39 AM »

So I don't really need to worry about the applause going into the red because I can hard limit in post?

I'd say you don't need to worry about the applause going into the red because applause that clips doesn't sound much different from regular applause. It's all just a bunch of sharp peaks.

You can go either way here, really. Turning on the limiter will reduce the clapping peaks on the fly, which (in my experience) sounds indistinguishable from reducing them in post. On the other hand, if you're recording 24-bit, you have plenty of data to work with even if set the levels fairly low and increase the volume in post.

What AJ said is most important: Make sure the music isn't clipping or triggering the limiter, and you're fine.


hmmmmmmmmmm, agree and disagree.I think clipped applause sounds weird, but maybe that's just my ears....

I'd try for applause at or near 0. Post process procedure for me for that type of show is to boost the music and decrease the applause BOTH. 24 bit for sure.  I think that post production sounds better than limiter. I use the envelope amplify in soundforge, both upwards and downwards. I can get 30 to 40% down on the applause and up to 100% boost on the music without it sounding too strange. I have done that a LOT with omni recording of classical music

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2016, 10:48:27 AM »
I record a lot of stuff like this.  My preference is making natural sounding recordings, which "teleport the listener to that time and place" and are as enjoyable for me (and by extension, others) to listen to as possible.  Although a listener is welcome to listen to just a single song or handful of them in isolation if they prefer, my aim is to make the entire concert one seamless and enjoyable listening experience.  My goal is not recording a bunch of individual songs with audience noise between them, I'm recording the entire event and feel strongly the entire thing should be as enjoyable to listen to as I can make it.

If that's your goal as well, set your levels so that the loudest sounds recorded will not clip.  It doesn't matter if the loudest sounds are produced by the musicians or the audience.  For events with this kind of SPL, I determine an appropriate recording level by gearing up and clapping loudly myself beforehand at home, setting levels so that only my loudest clapping clips.  I then don't have to worry about monitoring levels at all during the recording.  Although I could engage a limiter on the recorder as a secondary safety, I don't do so because I don't need it, and because limiter circuits have a history of effecting the sound even when they are not active.  That may or may not be the case with digital limiters, but I've set levels conservatively enough to prevent all but a very occasional, overly loud applause or ear-piercing whistle by a person ass in very near proximity from clipping slightly.

I can think of two reasons someone might want to set levels higher than that, which would purposefully allow the applause to clip but not the music: 

1) If the self-noise floor of the recording rig is higher than the noise-floor of the venue, and boosting levels later raises that noise-floor to a level where it becomes more subjectively objectionable than the hard clipping of the applause peaks.

2) If the recordist doesn't care to go through the effort of optimizing the playback level and dynamics of the recording later, preferring instead to try to get the average level of the music high enough by the initial recording level setting alone, even though there is not enough headroom to keep the applause from clipping (and sounding less natural, more bothersome and more fatiguing, regardless of dynamics manipulation which might be done to it later).

Those are both logical reasons for letting the applause clip.  But neither apply to me.  I optimize the recording level for recording.  I optimize the overall level of the file, and dynamics within that range, after the recording has been made when I have far more control over those things.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 12:10:04 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline lsd2525

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2016, 11:49:48 AM »
Well, my goal is to have a recording that I don't have to crank it up to hear the songs, then crank it down because the applause is so loud, etc. Should I maybe record with the applause peaking at 0, and then apply some sort of compression in post? Pros and cons?

Kind of funny......this person is who I made my first recording of back in '99 with a MZ70 (I think) Sony MD and a set of Len's binaural mics in the exact same venue. Or course, I was 2nd row DFC. Came out pretty good considering I didn't have a clue what I was doing. The loud parts do sound a little harsh when they overrev.


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