Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: aaronji on April 17, 2012, 08:40:55 AM
-
Continued from: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=145955.360 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=145955.360)
If your using Cross Memory recording on the m10 will it switch from internal memory to card seamlessly?
Yes. This has been posted about several times...
-
HI, I am looking at getting a memory card for the PCM-M10 but know nothing about compatibility issues - this is the first memory card I've ever bought. I'm looking at this Lexar http://tinyurl.com/d2nzb7g and this samsung http://tinyurl.com/c7qxcs5
are either of these okay?
thanks for any help
Take a look here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147879.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147879.0)...
-
HI, I am looking at getting a memory card for the PCM-M10 but know nothing about compatibility issues - this is the first memory card I've ever bought. I'm looking at this Lexar http://tinyurl.com/d2nzb7g and this samsung http://tinyurl.com/c7qxcs5
are either of these okay?
thanks for any help
Take a look here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147879.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147879.0)...
thankyou
-
:guitarist:
-
:guitarist:
:drummer:
-
:nightfevah: (Bookmarking)
-
link to the FAQ: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147551.0
-
:djsmilie:
-
Checking in.
I got out and recorded my first show using the M10. I had Milabs>Lunatec V3(optical out)>D50 for one rig, and Beyer MC950>Naiant littlebox>M10 for the other.
The Tascam DR2d I got last year for having a second/small deck and having 4ch capabilities was ok, but I was never that thrilled with the low input overload threshold. I'll keep it for the very occasional 4ch recordings I want to do, but the M10 is a much nicer deck.
I haven't really listened to or compared the Milab>V3 recording, but the mc950>LB>M10 sounds great. The M10 was easy to use -- very similar to the D50.
Sometime when I don't want to 2 separate rigs, I'll do a comp of the V3 A/D to the M10 A/D (mics>V3, analog out to the M10, digital out to the D50). I suppose I could use the littlebox sometime and do 1/8" out to the M10 and RCA out to the D50, and thus do a comp of the D50 to the M10.
-
Continued from: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=145955.360 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=145955.360)
If your using Cross Memory recording on the m10 will it switch from internal memory to card seamlessly?
Yes. This has been posted about several times...
OK. Thanks for the info.
-
Take a look at the Marantz PMD661 is has XLR inputs and very quite preamp.
http://www.martelelectronics.com/Marantz-PMD661.html (http://www.martelelectronics.com/Marantz-PMD661.html)
HI, I am looking at getting a memory card for the PCM-M10 but know nothing about compatibility issues - this is the first memory card I've ever bought. I'm looking at this Lexar http://tinyurl.com/d2nzb7g and this samsung http://tinyurl.com/c7qxcs5
are either of these okay?
thanks for any help
Take a look here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147879.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147879.0)...
thankyou
-
HI, I am looking at getting a memory card for the PCM-M10 but know nothing about compatibility issues - this is the first memory card I've ever bought. I'm looking at this Lexar http://tinyurl.com/d2nzb7g and this samsung http://tinyurl.com/c7qxcs5
are either of these okay?
thanks for any help
Take a look here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147879.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147879.0)...
thankyou
I use a Lexar 16 GB class 10 micro SDHC card and it works flawless.
-
:headphones:
-
bump
-
Hi all,
I just joined the ranks of M10 owners. I just snagged a mint M10 in box with everything even original Sony batteries with charge for $120. Gotta love craigslist sometimes..hehe..now I just need to get some CA mics n maybe a CA Pre and I'm set. Now, what to go tape.....tough being dad of 4 yr old twins...and wanting to go out tape everything
-
.....tough being dad of 4 yr old twins...and wanting to go out tape everything
it's amazing you can go out at all! Welcome to the club, you'll love the m-10! :)
-
Nice price for the m10, gd420mj!
Record your twins and listen to it while you're at work or in a few months. You will be able to hear how much they have grown up and how fast they learn.
-
So far I have recorded 3 gigs with the PCM M10 and the thing is flawless. It absolutely works perfect .
I decided to leave the backlight on at all times . That way I can always check the recorder is still running . Using rechargable batteries it doesn't matter . Using GP recyko batteries the unit lasts about 22 hours in recording mode on 96/24 .
And I also decided to take no chance and record in the highest mode. When I used the HI MD or even the DAT years before that , buying media has always been expensive . So the extra GB I use now on storage is nothing compared to what I used to pay .
Line out could be a little louder though when connected to a hifi set up . I have always find portable units are never as loud ( for lack of the better word ) as a regular non portable unit .
Maybe someone can explain that . And yes , I have switched it to line out .
Thanks again for the persons who were nice enough to help me out when I needed the answers fast !!
-
"I decided to leave the backlight on at all times . That way I can always check the recorder is still running ."
Even if you let the backlight time out, the little red recording light will stay on (unless you deliberately turn off all lights) on both the unit and the remote. So you can see that you're you're still going without drawing too much.....attention.
-
tough being dad of 4 yr old twins...and wanting to go out tape everything
Heh, teach them how to use it! It's never too early to learn how to be a recording engineer. These days kids pick up tech stuff so fast.
And as someone mentioned above, recording the kids can be great for replay in future years. I have a few of mine from that kind of age - and now they are in their mid 30's.
It's also good to get out on your own sometimes...!
-
2 questions :
it seems that after setting on Memory Card, the device sometimes turns to internal memory again after switching off! It happened once already. am i missing something or have others had this?
secondly, i seem to recall the during recording there was a time stamp indicating how long the recoding has been going. It doesnt seem to be any where now. Any ideas?
-
secondly, i seem to recall the during recording there was a time stamp indicating how long the recoding has been going. It doesnt seem to be any where now. Any ideas?
Does the display button toggle between the different options for how that displays?
-
oh found it thanks
-
As stated somewhere in the prior sections of this thread, my only-used-once M-10 ran hotter on the left channel too.
-
I love my m10s so much I have 2 and and I'm buying a 3rd white one for use for my 3rd rig. Rock solid as hell, so far "knocks on wood"
-
As stated somewhere in the prior sections of this thread, my only-used-once M-10 ran hotter on the left channel too.
It is important to include specifics in a comment like this. Do you mean the internal mics, or the inputs?
I haven't bothered to measure the internal mics, but my m10 line-in is Extremely closely matched.
-
As stated somewhere in the prior sections of this thread, my only-used-once M-10 ran hotter on the left channel too.
It is important to include specifics in a comment like this. Do you mean the internal mics, or the inputs?
I haven't bothered to measure the internal mics, but my m10 line-in is Extremely closely matched.
Sorry, I was reffering to the internal mics as have the others.
-
questions :
it seems that after setting on Memory Card, the device sometimes turns to internal memory again after switching off! It happened once already. am i missing something or have others had this?
Turning mine off and on still keeps the Record to Memory Card setting. However, if you connect to the computer--to upload, etc.--it will default back to internal memory. It's easy to check on the display itself. Either the memory card is shown above the battery indicator (for using the card) or nothing is (internal memory).
-
Recorded my first gig with my new sony m10 last night.
Settings as follows:
Rec Level: Manual
Mic Sens: Low
DPC(Speed CTRL) : Off
Record Level: 5
Line In
Low Cut Filter: Off
Limiter:Off
Plug-in Power: Off
I was recording a rock band in a small theatre. Position front of Board. The recording came out pretty good, but there is a "hiss" throughout the whole recording. I was using Church CA14 Card mics - Church Battery box - Line In-M10. Any idea what might have caused the hiss. Should I have used "Mic-In" rather than "Line-In"?
-
Recorded my first gig with my new sony m10 last night.
Settings as follows:
Rec Level: Manual
Mic Sens: Low
DPC(Speed CTRL) : Off
Record Level: 5
Line In
Low Cut Filter: Off
Limiter:Off
Plug-in Power: Off
I was recording a rock band in a small theatre. Position front of Board. The recording came out pretty good, but there is a "hiss" throughout the whole recording. I was using Church CA14 Card mics - Church Battery box - Line In-M10. Any idea what might have caused the hiss. Should I have used "Mic-In" rather than "Line-In"?
What bit depth did you record at? 24 or 16?
Where were your peak levels? Did you tickle the greens (-12db) or was it all lower.
One cause of noise is not recording a hot enough signal, when you amplify the recording in post you can raise the noise as well. With 24 bit recording and peak levels between -12db and -6 db you have enough dynamic range to render to 44/16 (cd quality) without boosting your noise floor.
My first M10 recording (internal mics) was done with levels that barely went higher than -20db. The recording sounds ok (not great), but you can hear the noise.
Steve
-
Recorded my first gig with my new sony m10 last night.
Settings as follows:
Rec Level: Manual
Mic Sens: Low
DPC(Speed CTRL) : Off
Record Level: 5
Line In
Low Cut Filter: Off
Limiter:Off
Plug-in Power: Off
I was recording a rock band in a small theatre. Position front of Board. The recording came out pretty good, but there is a "hiss" throughout the whole recording. I was using Church CA14 Card mics - Church Battery box - Line In-M10. Any idea what might have caused the hiss. Should I have used "Mic-In" rather than "Line-In"?
What bit depth did you record at? 24 or 16?
Where were your peak levels? Did you tickle the greens (-12db) or was it all lower.
One cause of noise is not recording a hot enough signal, when you amplify the recording in post you can raise the noise as well. With 24 bit recording and peak levels between -12db and -6 db you have enough dynamic range to render to 44/16 (cd quality) without boosting your noise floor.
My first M10 recording (internal mics) was done with levels that barely went higher than -20db. The recording sounds ok (not great), but you can hear the noise.
Steve
Steve
The bit depth was 24/96. I did not check the levels, I just set the rec level to 5 and pressed record and stuck it in my pocket. The maximum sample value of the recording was -23 so I guess that might be the cause. The recording volume was very low on playback on my pc. With a battery box is it better to go Mic In rather than Line In or just set the record level a bit higher to say 6 or 7 for line in.
Is line-in really only for use with a pre-amp?
-
Level settings are dependent on which mics you are using. In general I find that I use the Mic in, low (Plug in Power off) with a battery box and my AT853 / battery box.
Your mileage may vary.
I'd also turn the limiter on, if you don't need it it doesn't hurt and if you do need it it helps.
I'd take my rig to a few open taping shows, and notice the correlation between show volume and levels while adjusting the gain knob.
-
Church mics are far less sensitive than AT 853's. It really sounds like you had your levels way too low and the hiss is a result of that.
Personally, I am not a big fan of using the limiter, but clearly you can raise your levels quite a bit. Mic in is also probably better with a battery box as it is not typically as powerful as a preamp.
-
It's funny, I generally use pretty much those exact same settings with my CA-14 omni and 9V battery box (Soundpro) through Line-in--maybe pumped up to 6 or 7 rather than 5. Line-in is an old habit from my minidisc days. They are not particularly quiet recordings.
Let the opening act be your soundcheck. Sacrifice a song (you can Normalize in post if you really feel bad about it later) and rotate the knob until the green lights flicker at the loud parts.
Also....check your battery?
-
Try MIC-IN then ;) I have only used LINE-IN w/ my old CA14>BB setup a few times. Mostly used MIC-IN :)
-
Try MIC-IN then ;) I have only used LINE-IN w/ my old CA14>BB setup a few times. Mostly used MIC-IN :)
What rec level did you start with going mic-in??
Thanks for all the replys guys.
Regarding the battery for the Battery box, how often should you change the Battery?
Also to boost sound levels on a recording whats the best way? I have Soundforge 10 and Cool Edit 2.0 ?? Would it be possible to remove this hiss also with one of these.
-
Also....check your battery?
i had that issue once
i found you can't get anywhere near as much time as they state before needing to change it but ymmv
also going up to 6 or 7 will add approx 2.5-5db of gain which in this case would have put you at -20/18
still much lower then you really want to be
-
Regarding the battery for the Battery box, how often should you change the Battery?
Usually, you can get hundreds of hours from a 9 V battery box. Not sure about Church's, but it's probably in that range. I change mine after ~ 50 hours unless it has been in there for a long time without hitting that level of usage, in which case I'll change it anyway (just in case)...
I would also second the mic-in suggestion. The M10 can take a pretty hot signal mic-in.
-
Try MIC-IN then ;) I have only used LINE-IN w/ my old CA14>BB setup a few times. Mostly used MIC-IN :)
What rec level did you start with going mic-in??
Thanks for all the replys guys.
Regarding the battery for the Battery box, how often should you change the Battery?
Also to boost sound levels on a recording whats the best way? I have Soundforge 10 and Cool Edit 2.0 ?? Would it be possible to remove this hiss also with one of these.
I use Soundforge, and have had great success eliminating preamp hiss. There are 3 equalizers, and I find it easy to play with 2 of them. (the parametric is one I struggle to use correctly) You can check the presets too within the equalizers, but I think you'll need to set up and save your own pre-set. Since you can highlight an area and a/b the difference before saving a file, it is pretty easy to listen and test until you have eliminated hiss but not anything else. There also is a hiss button in the menu selection, but I have always set my own. Soundforge is all about playing with it and getting used to all that it can do.
-
I use a Lexar 16 GB class 10 micro SDHC card and it works flawless.
Second the Lexar class 10 microSDHC cards. I'm running a 32GB and it's fast, stable and reliable (I've filled it up twice in about 2 months).
They might be a little more expensive but my data is important to me. I believe the only fast cards on the market are a SanDisk Ultra model (and they still cost megabucks).
-
I have been successfully using a 32gb AData Class 4 in my M10 :)
-
As stated somewhere in the prior sections of this thread, my only-used-once M-10 ran hotter on the left channel too.
It is important to include specifics in a comment like this. Do you mean the internal mics, or the inputs?
I haven't bothered to measure the internal mics, but my m10 line-in is Extremely closely matched.
Sorry, I was reffering to the internal mics as have the others.
Funny, my 11mo old M10 seems to be developing this channel issue with the left hotter. I'm referring to line in. I just thought that it was because none of my mics are matched, that I was seeing a difference. Now, I'm not so sure. I'm running my R44 tonight with my new 3 Zigma mics (matched), I'm going to take the M10 along and patch it in just to check levels.
-
Funny, my 11mo old M10 seems to be developing this channel issue with the left hotter. I'm referring to line in. I just thought that it was because none of my mics are matched, that I was seeing a difference. Now, I'm not so sure. I'm running my R44 tonight with my new 3 Zigma mics (matched), I'm going to take the M10 along and patch it in just to check levels.
I use line in as well and have a channel hotter than the other... and I am using with an nbox+ and schoeps mk4. I dont ever use the internals or mic in
-
Funny, my 11mo old M10 seems to be developing this channel issue with the left hotter. I'm referring to line in. I just thought that it was because none of my mics are matched, that I was seeing a difference. Now, I'm not so sure. I'm running my R44 tonight with my new 3 Zigma mics (matched), I'm going to take the M10 along and patch it in just to check levels.
I use line in as well and have a channel hotter than the other... and I am using with an nbox+ and schoeps mk4. I dont ever use the internals or mic in
Mine was subtle at first but seems to be getting worse. I'll report back on what I find out tonight.
-
Funny, my 11mo old M10 seems to be developing this channel issue with the left hotter. I'm referring to line in. I just thought that it was because none of my mics are matched, that I was seeing a difference. Now, I'm not so sure. I'm running my R44 tonight with my new 3 Zigma mics (matched), I'm going to take the M10 along and patch it in just to check levels.
I use line in as well and have a channel hotter than the other... and I am using with an nbox+ and schoeps mk4. I dont ever use the internals or mic in
Mine was subtle at first but seems to be getting worse. I'll report back on what I find out tonight.
Couldn't reproduce it last night. It's starting to look like the LB :(
-
I thought that at first w/ my left channel but havent had any problems as of lately ???
-
Had my second run out with my new M10 this week and again I'am having a problem with a background hiss throughout the recording. ???
Settings were:
Rec Level: Manual
Mic Sens: Low
DPC(Speed CTRL) : Off
Record Level: 3
Mic In
Low Cut Filter: Off
Limiter:Off
Plug-in Power: Off
I was recording two rock bands in an arena this time. Position up in the seats just left of centre. The recordings came out pretty good, but again there is a "hiss" throughout the whole recordings. I was using Church CA14 Card mics - Church Battery box - Mic In-M10. Any idea what might be causing this hiss. Is there any other setting on the recorder that could be causing this hiss? or is my recorder faulty.
I've now tried both Line-in and Mic-in and get the hiss on both. I've also tried a different Battery box / Battery / Mics and get the hiss also. It has to be the recorder,right??
Has anybody ever had this problem with a M10?
-
Line In would be a better choice
-
can you post a sample? what were the meters showing?
-
Was there an air conditioner where you were recording? Seriously, if there is a hiss in the room, you might tune it out but your mics won't.
I'd suggest you try making other recordings, just around the house--maybe with your stereo. Use your concert setup, use mics-->mic-in, use the internal mics. You want to check each part of the chain.
-
m10 grows up in price. Now it's 249$ on B&H (was 229$).
-
it goes back and forth all the time
-
ahh damn business
-
Had my second run out with my new M10 this week and again I'am having a problem with a background hiss throughout the recording. ???
Settings were:
Rec Level: Manual
Mic Sens: Low
DPC(Speed CTRL) : Off
Record Level: 3
Mic In
Low Cut Filter: Off
Limiter:Off
Plug-in Power: Off
I was recording two rock bands in an arena this time. Position up in the seats just left of centre. The recordings came out pretty good, but again there is a "hiss" throughout the whole recordings. I was using Church CA14 Card mics - Church Battery box - Mic In-M10. Any idea what might be causing this hiss. Is there any other setting on the recorder that could be causing this hiss? or is my recorder faulty.
I've now tried both Line-in and Mic-in and get the hiss on both. I've also tried a different Battery box / Battery / Mics and get the hiss also. It has to be the recorder,right??
Has anybody ever had this problem with a M10?
Hi, hmmm, I just made a recording with my Sony M10 using DPA-4060's and 9Volt home brew battery box. I had the settings similar to yours using Mic-In, Low Mic Sensitivity setting and recording level knob set to around 2.2 on the dial. All effects and filters turned off for flat recording. I went out to record the annual Memorial Day parade passing by neighborhood. I don't hear any hiss at all with this
very low recording level setting on my M10. Since I see you tried two different inputs (Mic-In and Line-In) on your M10 and still report hearing hiss I surmise either you have a defective noisey unit OR the other common culprit is that the set of CA14 Card mics you are using are themselves generating the noise hiss you hear.
So, have you tried to test with any other microphones instead of the CA14 set that you used and see if the hiss is still there? It very well could be noisey mic elements which means defective mics and Church Audio I am sure will replace them for you if that was the case. I have the same set of mics and they work well. But you may have a noisey set? Just saying to check that as a cause of the hiss.
Otherwise I would check with Sony to see if they will replace your hissy M10.
Update: oops, I just saw that you said you did try different mics and battery boxes. So if that is the case and the hiss is always there, yes safe to conclude that your M10 is the culprit.
I don't know how loud of a hiss you are reporting but if it is very noticeable and loud then I would say it is a defect in the unit. But if it is really very low hiss, it might be normal and you have exremely sensitive hearing. Without a sample of it, we cannot tell for sure right now.
Update2: Well just want to tell you that last night I played my recording of the Memorial Day parade on the M10 unit itself listening with a pair of efficient Sony 7606 headphones and during the quiet or silent parts of the recording I could detect a slight amount of what sounded like hiss level. Not sure if it was just ambient noise level of my room surroundings or device hisss though. Maybe that's what you are hearing. Again it may just that some folks hear this hiss and it bothers them while other folks it might not bother them at all. If you are recording rock concert level sound then the hiss should not even be audible. If you are recording quieter type situations like insect noises and such then the hiss will become a factor.
-
9Volt home brew battery box.
What is your "9Volt home brew battery box"?
-
9Volt home brew battery box.
What is your "9Volt home brew battery box"?
It is a home made battery box that I built specially for the DPA 4060 binaural microphones with their microdot connectors.
I did this about 2 years ago so don't remember all the details but I was active posting to these forums back then and you probably can search for info on it in DPA 4060 mic battery box and microdot connecters related forums. Hope that helps but,
I am not sure what exactly you are asking for here by your unclear question.
Update: I did some digging for you and found the thread that describes all the info you'll need to build your own DPA-4060 mics battery box.
Here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132627.30
-
Had my second run out with my new M10 this week and again I'am having a problem with a background hiss throughout the recording. ???
Settings were:
Rec Level: Manual
Mic Sens: Low
DPC(Speed CTRL) : Off
Record Level: 3
Mic In
Low Cut Filter: Off
Limiter:Off
Plug-in Power: Off
I was recording two rock bands in an arena this time. Position up in the seats just left of centre. The recordings came out pretty good, but again there is a "hiss" throughout the whole recordings. I was using Church CA14 Card mics - Church Battery box - Mic In-M10. Any idea what might be causing this hiss. Is there any other setting on the recorder that could be causing this hiss? or is my recorder faulty.
I've now tried both Line-in and Mic-in and get the hiss on both. I've also tried a different Battery box / Battery / Mics and get the hiss also. It has to be the recorder,right??
Has anybody ever had this problem with a M10?
Hi, hmmm, I just made a recording with my Sony M10 using DPA-4060's and 9Volt home brew battery box. I had the settings similar to yours using Mic-In, Low Mic Sensitivity setting and recording level knob set to around 2.2 on the dial. All effects and filters turned off for flat recording. I went out to record the annual Memorial Day parade passing by neighborhood. I don't hear any hiss at all with this
very low recording level setting on my M10. Since I see you tried two different inputs (Mic-In and Line-In) on your M10 and still report hearing hiss I surmise either you have a defective noisey unit OR the other common culprit is that the set of CA14 Card mics you are using are themselves generating the noise hiss you hear.
So, have you tried to test with any other microphones instead of the CA14 set that you used and see if the hiss is still there? It very well could be noisey mic elements which means defective mics and Church Audio I am sure will replace them for you if that was the case. I have the same set of mics and they work well. But you may have a noisey set? Just saying to check that as a cause of the hiss.
Otherwise I would check with Sony to see if they will replace your hissy M10.
Update: oops, I just saw that you said you did try different mics and battery boxes. So if that is the case and the hiss is always there, yes safe to conclude that your M10 is the culprit.
I don't know how loud of a hiss you are reporting but if it is very noticeable and loud then I would say it is a defect in the unit. But if it is really very low hiss, it might be normal and you have exremely sensitive hearing. Without a sample of it, we cannot tell for sure right now.
Its the m10. I've sent it back to be repaired or exchanged. I guess I'll know for sure in a few days.
-
Its the m10. I've sent it back to be repaired or exchanged. I guess I'll know for sure in a few days.
Oh, okay. I had just added another update2 to my original reply to you. Anyways, hope you get back a nice new working M10. It is a fine unit.
-
Its the m10. I've sent it back to be repaired or exchanged. I guess I'll know for sure in a few days.
Oh, okay. I had just added another update2 to my original reply to you. Anyways, hope you get back a nice new working M10. It is a fine unit.
Yeah, its a great unit for sure. Guess I was just unlucky with the one I got.
-
You got the one that was nostalgic for the cassette era. Tape hiss!
-
Anyone know how to safely dis- and re-assemble one of these?
I'd like to pop off the back cover so I can remove the manual/auto record level toggle (the better to keep it from sliding to the wrong setting, since I plan to always use manual...).
If it's anything like the SBM-1, the external slider is just pushing on a micro-slider that could probably be accessed with a very tiny screwdriver if later adjustment was necessary.
-
gaffers tape, been in place on my for 2 years solid
-
gaffers tape, been in place on my for 2 years solid
This, but the adhesive on Gaffer's tape goes from perfect to gummy to dry and powdery over time. I'd highly recommend using a new piece every year or two.
-
I cant argue that, but 2 years next month, and mine is still fine
-
I cant argue that, but 2 years next month, and mine is still fine
Good time to change it then, before the tape goes.
I work for a production company that uses miles of the stuff. Cleaning gaff residue off of gear and cables is a job we give newbies. Elbow grease and a citrus cleaner.
-
what do other people use/do to disable these "hard buttons"?
-
Mine are duct taped. I NEEED gaff tape but its expensive as hell. I can get 3 x Rolls of KILLER duct tape from Sams Club for $12.00 that lasts me about 1 year. I roll of gaff tape is almost 30 bucks :( Guess with all the $$$$ I have invested in gear, I can splurge a lil for 1 roll of gaff tape :P ;D
-
I just got an M10...and I don't feel like these rear controls will need tape.....everything is nice and tight.....maybe cuz it's new...like a new gf.
Anyway..impressed with the size of this thing....coming from an HDp2..this is really sweet.
-
They are super sweet. I ran almost 40gb on each of my 2 M10's, and I changed batteries in them just once each ;D
-
...roll of gaff tape is almost 30 bucks....
I only have mine because a crew member left if behind and never came back for it :D
-
Mine are duct taped. I NEEED gaff tape but its expensive as hell. I can get 3 x Rolls of KILLER duct tape from Sams Club for $12.00 that lasts me about 1 year. I roll of gaff tape is almost 30 bucks :( Guess with all the $$$$ I have invested in gear, I can splurge a lil for 1 roll of gaff tape :P ;D
You should be able to get it a lot cheaper than that. Markertek has a huge supply of gaffer tape (and probably not even the best prices). Here's one that half the price of what you've been finding:
http://www.markertek.com/Expendables/Gaffers-Tape-Adhesive/Gaffers-Tape/TecNec-Cables-Connectors/BGT-60.xhtml?TNGT-60
If I'm taping down tarps at Red Rocks, I use duct tape, but for taping-related stuff, it's gaffers tape. This one above may be 3-4 times the price of duct tape, but a roll should last you a year, so it's only something like $10 a year more to use gaffers tape. On a percentage basis, it's a lot more expensive than duct tape, but in actual cost, it's a drop in the bucket as this hobby goes.
-
RE: gaff vs duct
I've had some theaters squawk about taping a stand to newly carpeted/finished floors unless it is gaff and NOT duct...
/highjack
-
RE: gaff vs duct
I've had some theaters squawk about taping a stand to newly carpeted/finished floors unless it is gaff and NOT duct...
/highjack
Gaff is formulated not to leave adhesive behind, unless you leave it for years...
-
sorry for the spelling bee error
-
RE: gaff vs duct
I've had some theaters squawk about taping a stand to newly carpeted/finished floors unless it is gaff and NOT duct...
/highjack
same
i had a high school even bitch until they found out i was using gaff
-
Mine are duct taped. I NEEED gaff tape but its expensive as hell. I can get 3 x Rolls of KILLER duct tape from Sams Club for $12.00 that lasts me about 1 year. I roll of gaff tape is almost 30 bucks :( Guess with all the $$$$ I have invested in gear, I can splurge a lil for 1 roll of gaff tape :P ;D
@ B&H 2in X 12yd roll is around $6. Everytime I order something that get's me free shipping....I add a few rolls on the order. Nice smallish rolls that you can strap to your gear bag. Easy peasy....and cost effective.
-
Is there any difference in various brands of Alkaline batteries ? Or do the brand names doesn't vary much ?
I currently use rechargable batteries ( and they're great ) , but when travelling I don't feel like taking the loader .
-
There are battery tests around that say they're all pretty similar unless you buy Lithium.
http://dealnews.com/features/Test-Results-That-Will-Change-the-Way-You-Buy-Batteries-Forever/449005.html
http://www.zbattery.com/zbattery/batteryinfo.html
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?64660-Alkaline-Battery-Shoot-Out--This one has surprisingly good results for Rite Aid generics!
But...call me superstitious. Back in my Minidisc days I was switching back and forth between Energizer and Duracell. From my own purely anecdotal and amateur tests I found that Energizer would work fine and then suddenly drop below a certain threshold and stop powering the unit, like dropping off a cliff, while the Duracell would dwindle more gradually and hang in there longer at 2 bars. So I've stuck to Duracell since then. But the more scientifically expert are probably laughing now.
-
There are battery tests around that say they're all pretty similar unless you buy Lithium.
http://dealnews.com/features/Test-Results-That-Will-Change-the-Way-You-Buy-Batteries-Forever/449005.html
http://www.zbattery.com/zbattery/batteryinfo.html
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?64660-Alkaline-Battery-Shoot-Out--This one has surprisingly good results for Rite Aid generics!
But...call me superstitious. Back in my Minidisc days I was switching back and forth between Energizer and Duracell. From my own purely anecdotal and amateur tests I found that Energizer would work fine and then suddenly drop below a certain threshold and stop powering the unit, like dropping off a cliff, while the Duracell would dwindle more gradually and hang in there longer at 2 bars. So I've stuck to Duracell since then. But the more scientifically expert are probably laughing now.
Thanks for the answer .
I haven't used batteries basically since the early DAT days . later on , even with DAT , I started using rechargable ones .
I've seen some tests but I am also interested what M10 users thinks are best .
So I guess as long as they are ( brandname) Alkaline or Lithium it should be fine , eh ?
-
Is there any difference in various brands of Alkaline batteries ? Or do the brand names doesn't vary much ?
I currently use rechargable batteries ( and they're great ) , but when travelling I don't feel like taking the loader .
I buy whatever I can get cheaper...and since the M10 is scary good in the battery life dept. that means I've only used Duracell's. I'm still on my original 20 pack of Duracell's. I've had no issues with them.
I personally don't trust the rechagables as much. A 20 pack of Duracell AA's are $6 on Amazon. That's 60 cents each time I reload batteries. They last me AT LEAST 10 shows...so 6 cents per show. At that rate...I don't worry about it.
-
They last me AT LEAST 10 shows...so 6 cents per show. At that rate...I don't worry about it.
What bit rate and freq are you running at?
-
I have been running these:
http://www.thomasdistributing.com/-MAHA-POWEREX-Four-2700-mAh-AA-NIMH-Rechargeable-Batteries_p_20.html
on a set of 4 for about 3 years, and recording at 24/96.
UI typically get 2-3 shows out of a set of freshly charged batteries when I have a couple of shows in a week.... $13 for 3 years, ~100 shows a year... you do the math
-
They last me AT LEAST 10 shows...so 6 cents per show. At that rate...I don't worry about it.
What bit rate and freq are you running at?
24/48
Does it make a difference in battery life?
-
They last me AT LEAST 10 shows...so 6 cents per show. At that rate...I don't worry about it.
What bit rate and freq are you running at?
24/48
Does it make a difference in battery life?
I've found it makes a difference on my 722. I haven't tested on my M-10, but I bet it has some impact.
-
They last me AT LEAST 10 shows...so 6 cents per show. At that rate...I don't worry about it.
What bit rate and freq are you running at?
24/48
Does it make a difference in battery life?
I've found it makes a difference on my 722. I haven't tested on my M-10, but I bet it has some impact.
Interesting. I guess more 1's and 0's take more juice.
The damn thing still blows my mind especially compared to other recorders I've used. My old DR-07 would last ONE show. Maybe 2 if it was a really short show.
-
^^^ Sony even lists different record times for various bit depths and sampling rates in the manual.
The damn thing still blows my mind especially compared to other recorders I've used. My old DR-07 would last ONE show. Maybe 2 if it was a really short show.
This hits the nail on the head: who's worried about batteries with the M10? Even for a long festival day, with cheap batteries, you'd still be good to go.
-
has anyone had to have their "line in" jack repaired? if so, what was the cost?
my buddy's line in jack went bad and he thinks it'll be better to buy a new unit rather than have it fixed. thanks.
-
how did it go bad? the R09 had solder issues, but it was a $25 patch to keep them going
-
he thinks it went bad due to bumping and jostling of the cable while in the jack. nothing from the outside appears to be physically broken, but he's getting some static and drop-out when using the jack.
-
I only asked because I was having issues, but when I changes my input cable, it seems to have stopped... being a couple of years in on these and only using my for stealth (which beats it up), I am wondering if the End Of Life for these units is about up for me (meaning replacement or upgrade)
-
I have been running these:
http://www.thomasdistributing.com/-MAHA-POWEREX-Four-2700-mAh-AA-NIMH-Rechargeable-Batteries_p_20.html
on a set of 4 for about 3 years, and recording at 24/96.
UI typically get 2-3 shows out of a set of freshly charged batteries when I have a couple of shows in a week.... $13 for 3 years, ~100 shows a year... you do the math
Ditto, I've gotten about 30 hours from a set of 2.
I've got about 20 of these batts, plus some AAA for other devices.
all in all they hold a charge and last a long time.
-
regarding #83 above
battery life with the SD722 will vary with sampling rate because it will affect how much power is needed to spin the hard drive.
since the M10 is solid state, I wouldn't expect to see much of an effect.
-
I have been running these:
http://www.thomasdistributing.com/-MAHA-POWEREX-Four-2700-mAh-AA-NIMH-Rechargeable-Batteries_p_20.html
on a set of 4 for about 3 years, and recording at 24/96.
UI typically get 2-3 shows out of a set of freshly charged batteries when I have a couple of shows in a week.... $13 for 3 years, ~100 shows a year... you do the math
Ditto, I've gotten about 30 hours from a set of 2.
I've got about 20 of these batts, plus some AAA for other devices.
all in all they hold a charge and last a long time.
I have tons of their batteries, and they do come to an EOL (end of life) and you will see it after 3-4 years of use/recharge... and thats when I demote them to the kids toys... but I have learned the hard way, if you have to fight to get them to charge, just dump them and move on.... occasionally they do wonk out but it has never been in the field, just when trying to charge
-
regarding #83 above
battery life with the SD722 will vary with sampling rate because it will affect how much power is needed to spin the hard drive.
since the M10 is solid state, I wouldn't expect to see much of an effect.
Check the SD site: http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/recorders/ssd-current-draw/
Solid State vs spinning hard drive are basically the same power draw... the differences are negligible
-
Nice price for the m10, gd420mj!
Record your twins and listen to it while you're at work or in a few months. You will be able to hear how much they have grown up and how fast they learn.
tough being dad of 4 yr old twins...and wanting to go out tape everything
Heh, teach them how to use it! It's never too early to learn how to be a recording engineer. These days kids pick up tech stuff so fast.
And as someone mentioned above, recording the kids can be great for replay in future years. I have a few of mine from that kind of age - and now they are in their mid 30's.
It's also good to get out on your own sometimes...!
The first thing I did record with it was them. I played it back for them, and they were thrilled. Then some of my wife and I playing guitars together. The internal mics sound really good. I am very impressed. I just made some home made binaurals with the WM-61A caps and a homemade battery box. I had it outside last night and had the mic sens on low but gain on 10. I could hear everything including me breathing a few ft away and very low noise.
I tape my first show this weekend with it. Eilen Jewell at Howard Theater in DC. Can't Wait...
-
I have been running these:
http://www.thomasdistributing.com/-MAHA-POWEREX-Four-2700-mAh-AA-NIMH-Rechargeable-Batteries_p_20.html
on a set of 4 for about 3 years, and recording at 24/96.
UI typically get 2-3 shows out of a set of freshly charged batteries when I have a couple of shows in a week.... $13 for 3 years, ~100 shows a year... you do the math
100 shows a year ? Do you work for bands or something ?
-
I have been running these:
http://www.thomasdistributing.com/-MAHA-POWEREX-Four-2700-mAh-AA-NIMH-Rechargeable-Batteries_p_20.html
on a set of 4 for about 3 years, and recording at 24/96.
UI typically get 2-3 shows out of a set of freshly charged batteries when I have a couple of shows in a week.... $13 for 3 years, ~100 shows a year... you do the math
100 shows a year ? Do you work for bands or something ?
I record around 100+ sets a year and have been the last 15+ years :) But I do LOTS of local shows[without a license] and about 4 festies a year :)
-
Hell, I just counted and I recorded 38 sets from just Summer Camp 2 weeks ago 8)
-
Thanks to Tonedeaf of course! You rule Steve!
-
100 shows a year ? Do you work for bands or something ?
That's nothing. Zman records a thousand shows a year. He's often recording 2, 3 shows a night.
All it takes is the will, endurance, and sufficient quantities of the right food.
-
All it takes is the will, endurance, and sufficient quantities of the right food.
what about money? You think all his tickets are comped?
-
100 shows a year ? Do you work for bands or something ?
I should have said bands, not events.... openers and headliners... and festivals can hit 10 or more per show.
I am just addicted to music. I have not really hit summer yet and I am around 35 or 40 bands with some 15 more shows with tickets coming up and numerous free shows with 2 openers and a headliner
-
When I listen to the mic input on these tests the M-10 sounds good, but the line input sounds noticeably
lacking:
http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-noise.html#samples
-
regarding #83 above
battery life with the SD722 will vary with sampling rate because it will affect how much power is needed to spin the hard drive.
since the M10 is solid state, I wouldn't expect to see much of an effect.
Check the SD site: http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/recorders/ssd-current-draw/
Solid State vs spinning hard drive are basically the same power draw... the differences are negligible
Wow, I find that very surprising!
-
When I listen to the mic input on these tests the M-10 sounds good, but the line input sounds noticeably
lacking:
http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-noise.html#samples
These tests are worthless for music tapers. What good to music tapers is a test which records a few spoken words? The line input test actually sounds OK to me but there is a buzzing in the mic input test which would not be OK if the M10 mic input really really produced a buzz with mics we use.
The M10 has been shown to have a good line input as well as mic input via countless music recordings posted on line and all the positive comments from taperssection members.
-
When I listen to the mic input on these tests the M-10 sounds good, but the line input sounds noticeably
lacking:
http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-noise.html#samples
These tests are worthless for music tapers. What good to music tapers is a test which records a few spoken words?
Well, I disagree with that....., but that's the good thing about choice.
-
100 shows a year ? Do you work for bands or something ?
I should have said bands, not events.... openers and headliners... and festivals can hit 10 or more per show.
I am just addicted to music. I have not really hit summer yet and I am around 35 or 40 bands with some 15 more shows with tickets coming up and numerous free shows with 2 openers and a headliner
last year i did 113 shows. tonight will be show #76 of 2012. i just can't get enough live music, and the M10 is a total workhorse!
-
When I listen to the mic input on these tests the M-10 sounds good, but the line input sounds noticeably
lacking:
http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-noise.html#samples
These tests are worthless for music tapers. What good to music tapers is a test which records a few spoken words?
Well, I disagree with that....., but that's the good thing about choice.
Choice is definitely good, but those tests are worthless...No information about how they did them, really. Not even a hint about recorder settings, powering, or general test conditions. The line sample is through a mixer, which presumably is powering the mics too. The mic sample is through a splitter (with power source unknown). No way to draw any valid conclusions from that, I think...
-
100 shows a year ? Do you work for bands or something ?
I should have said bands, not events.... openers and headliners... and festivals can hit 10 or more per show.
I am just addicted to music. I have not really hit summer yet and I am around 35 or 40 bands with some 15 more shows with tickets coming up and numerous free shows with 2 openers and a headliner
That's still a lot . As much as I love going to shows , work obligations prevents me from going to quite a few shows . Unfortunate ...
I still get to go to about 30 shows a year I guess . At least that way I can still listen to stuff I record !
-
100 shows a year ? Do you work for bands or something ?
I should have said bands, not events.... openers and headliners... and festivals can hit 10 or more per show.
I am just addicted to music. I have not really hit summer yet and I am around 35 or 40 bands with some 15 more shows with tickets coming up and numerous free shows with 2 openers and a headliner
I hope ayou ( and the other guys who responded earlier in this thread ) have a good set of earplugs !!
last year i did 113 shows. tonight will be show #76 of 2012. i just can't get enough live music, and the M10 is a total workhorse!
-
So far I made it halfway to the threads . Now is there a seperate thread concerning matters like copying the tracks from the PCM to the computer .
There are a few things I'd like to know , like is there a difference in using the right cable uploading ? Does it matter ? ( I use a quality cable ).
More so , if I copy a file I can only upload the complete file . Even when I made trackmarks I can only upload the complete file . I usually start recording whenever I enter the venue. I would like to delete all the unnecessary files. Now I know I could do this with WAVE EDITOR or something comparable . But isn't this a compromise for the quality ?
I know I could delete it on the PCM M10 itself . But I find this a risk .
I know there must be a seperate thread . I just can't find it ( I think someone mentioned it ).
-
here's a comparative post on various recorders at the Naturerecordists group :
I performed a test of some of my recorders (Sony M10, D50, Olympus LS7, Roland
R05 Zoom H1) to compare their internal mics on a passerine bird singer, the
Blackcap, very widespread here in Europe.
A simultaneous recording was obtained with all five recorders; the levels were
set to have almost the same level on all recorders; fine tuning of levels in
post production was required only for the Roland R05 (+3db) and the Zoom H1
(+6db).
The Olympus Ls 7 was enabled for all its three microphones (the two side
cardioids and the central one omnidirectional).
Here the youtube link to the Movie file
http://youtu.be/o3HCdmTujAU
and here the Soundcloud link to the WAV file
http://soundcloud.com/marco-pesente/blackcap-m10-d50-ls7-r05-h1
Marco Pesente
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturerecordists/message/48103
-
So far I made it halfway to the threads . Now is there a seperate thread concerning matters like copying the tracks from the PCM to the computer .
There are a few things I'd like to know , like is there a difference in using the right cable uploading ? Does it matter ? ( I use a quality cable ).
More so , if I copy a file I can only upload the complete file . Even when I made trackmarks I can only upload the complete file . I usually start recording whenever I enter the venue. I would like to delete all the unnecessary files. Now I know I could do this with WAVE EDITOR or something comparable . But isn't this a compromise for the quality ?
I know I could delete it on the PCM M10 itself . But I find this a risk .
I know there must be a seperate thread . I just can't find it ( I think someone mentioned it ).
Just copy the complete file and edit it later. Don't edit the file on the M-10 - edit it on the computer.
If you are concerned about the file getting copying with an error, create a checksum first and copy both the file and checksum and then verify the checksum after you have copied it.
If you record to the microSD, it is faster to remove the SD card and use and SD card reader rather than copying directly from the M-10.
I can't imagine what else might be in a "thread" about copying files off the M-10.
-
here's a comparative post on various recorders at the Naturerecordists group :
I'm surprised that this comparison hasn't given rise to any comment on that group. I found it extremely interesting. I've listened repeatedly using headphones.
Things I notice -
- The M10's poor stereo image makes it virtually impossible to make out the very distant singing of the blackbird (??) to the left of the soundstage.
- The D50 isn't much better in terms of stereo image but sounds rather thinner (less at the bottom)
- In the LS7 segment you now hear that blackbird to the left and there's more low frequencies, though the You Tube spectral display seems to show more noise
- The R05 is perhaps inferior to the LS7 and again the spectral display seems to show noise
- The Zoom H1 has a good stereo image and considerably more energy in the very lowest frequencies, though this could be slight wind noise, and the spectral display implies that it has no more noise than the Sony recorders.
Overall, with caveat that it seems to be more prone to wind noise, the humble H1 seems to come out very well in this test in terms of bang for buck.
-
here's a comparative post on various recorders at the Naturerecordists group :
I'm surprised that this comparison hasn't given rise to any comment on that group. I found it extremely interesting. I've listened repeatedly using headphones.
Things I notice -
- The M10's poor stereo image makes it virtually impossible to make out the very distant singing of the blackbird (??) to the left of the soundstage.
- The D50 isn't much better in terms of stereo image but sounds rather thinner (less at the bottom)
- In the LS7 segment you now hear that blackbird to the left and there's more low frequencies, though the You Tube spectral display seems to show more noise
- The R05 is perhaps inferior to the LS7 and again the spectral display seems to show noise
- The Zoom H1 has a good stereo image and considerably more energy in the very lowest frequencies, though this could be slight wind noise, and the spectral display implies that it has no more noise than the Sony recorders.
Overall, with caveat that it seems to be more prone to wind noise, the humble H1 seems to come out very well in this test in terms of bang for buck.
Obviously these are all based using the internal mics - which I would never use on any recorder - esp in a low noise environment such as environmental/nature recording!
I think it's pretty well known the Sony's use omni's so of course the H1 would edge it out in that comparison when comparing stereo image.
-
More so , if I copy a file I can only upload the complete file . Even when I made trackmarks I can only upload the complete file . I usually start recording whenever I enter the venue.
In the PCM-M10 menu there is a Divide function. That will divide your recording at the track marks. If your recording was 120615_01.wav you will get separate files: 120615_01_01.wav, 120615_01_02.wav, etc. You can then upload individual files. There is a limit of 100 files per folder, so try to start a show in an empty folder.
As for editing on the unit, I often push the track button during applause. If I've pushed it at the wrong time, then before I Divide the concert, the Delete function in Menu will delete one track mark (the nearest previous one in the file you are playing) or all of them. So you can Delete the bad track mark and put it in the right place on the unit--I sometimes do this on the subway home after the gig...
I don't see any problem with track-marking on the unit at obvious moments during a show. You do have to listen for when the last note of a song actually dies out, which is often well into the applause.
------------------
About taking out the microSD....someone did a test and found that the PCM-M10 is slower than a card reader but not by much. So you might weigh whether you want to create wear and tear on the door and slot of the PCM-M10, or wait a little longer for the upload. And by the way, the cable shouldn't matter as long as it connects. You're transmitting ones and zeros, not an analog signal.
-
i always just transfer the files from the M10 to the computer as soon as i get home from a show. it's not fast, but it's not horribly slow (10-20 minutes depending in the length of the show). yes i wish it were faster, but i've adjusted to it.
-
So far I made it halfway to the threads . Now is there a seperate thread concerning matters like copying the tracks from the PCM to the computer .
There are a few things I'd like to know , like is there a difference in using the right cable uploading ? Does it matter ? ( I use a quality cable ).
More so , if I copy a file I can only upload the complete file . Even when I made trackmarks I can only upload the complete file . I usually start recording whenever I enter the venue. I would like to delete all the unnecessary files. Now I know I could do this with WAVE EDITOR or something comparable . But isn't this a compromise for the quality ?
I know I could delete it on the PCM M10 itself . But I find this a risk .
I know there must be a seperate thread . I just can't find it ( I think someone mentioned it ).
Most new computers today have a built in card reader slot at least a SD card reader. Use the microsd to Sd card adapter. If yours doesn't got to office depot, staples or bestbuy or some other local place and for like $10 to $15 you can get a usb card reader.
Transferring files from the card via card reader is like 10x faster then plugging in your M-10 a one hour 24/48 show transferred via my card reader in the side of my I mac takes about 1 to 2 minutes.
Always save your raw file and save as another title using the Etree naming standards. then edit away Audacity is free and works fine.
have fun read other computer threads.
-
...go to office depot, staples or bestbuy or some other local place and for like $10 to $15 you can get a usb card reader......
dont forget ebay for a micro > SD converter (if you have a reader already) for a while $1
-
More so , if I copy a file I can only upload the complete file . Even when I made trackmarks I can only upload the complete file . I usually start recording whenever I enter the venue.
In the PCM-M10 menu there is a Divide function. That will divide your recording at the track marks. If your recording was 120615_01.wav you will get separate files: 120615_01_01.wav, 120615_01_02.wav, etc. You can then upload individual files. There is a limit of 100 files per folder, so try to start a show in an empty folder.
As for editing on the unit, I often push the track button during applause. If I've pushed it at the wrong time, then before I Divide the concert, the Delete function in Menu will delete one track mark (the nearest previous one in the file you are playing) or all of them. So you can Delete the bad track mark and put it in the right place on the unit--I sometimes do this on the subway home after the gig...
I don't see any problem with track-marking on the unit at obvious moments during a show. You do have to listen for when the last note of a song actually dies out, which is often well into the applause.
------------------
About taking out the microSD....someone did a test and found that the PCM-M10 is slower than a card reader but not by much. So you might weigh whether you want to create wear and tear on the door and slot of the PCM-M10, or wait a little longer for the upload. And by the way, the cable shouldn't matter as long as it connects. You're transmitting ones and zeros, not an analog signal.
Great advice . Thanks .
I thought the track mark and the divide function where the same . Now I used the divide function and it splits the track . Now I can only keep what I need.
-
Hoping for some insight....I've done a bunch of outdoor sets running Wendt X2>M10. On my first outing I was just dabbling..running the pre hot/cold to see where it was safe to run. Everything was fine....sets sounded nice. I was using internal memory. I picked up a Sandisk 8gig class 4 SDHC card.....then I ran using the micro SD...all my sets are now littered with pops and clicks. I noticed this on Fri....I ran lower gain for Sat. thinking the Wendt was being finicky...still, same results...pops n; clicks everywhere. Very frustrated.
So, my question is this....does writing to the external memory have any play in this....? I even changed mics on Sat. with the same results.
-
Did you format the microSD card with the M-10?
-
Did you format the microSD card with the M-10?
Yep.
-
So, my question is this....does writing to the external memory have any play in this....?
I guess it's possible, but I don't recall hearing about anyone else encountering the problem. Was the card an eBay special (there are lots of poor quality counterfeits out there)? Even if not, there are bum cards sometimes. I would try another card and see if you experience the same thing...
-
So, my question is this....does writing to the external memory have any play in this....?
I guess it's possible, but I don't recall hearing about anyone else encountering the problem. Was the card an eBay special (there are lots of poor quality counterfeits out there)? Even if not, there are bum cards sometimes. I would try another card and see if you experience the same thing...
Not an ebay special...but would a bum card format and be recognized by my PC? Should I go to a class 6?
-
^^^ Some devices are more finicky than others. I would really try a different card and see if you have the same problem. A class 4 card (sustained write at 4 MB/s) should be amply fast enough for stereo recording, even at 24/96 (~ 0.55 MB/s)...
For what it's worth, I have been using class 4 cards in my M10 for several years with no issues (mostly at 24/48 but I have made some recordings at 24/96 too). Also, I think the Memory Stick Micro, Sony's proprietary card, clocks in around 3 MB/s.
-
^^^ Some devices are more finicky than others. I would really try a different card and see if you have the same problem. A class 4 card (sustained write at 4 MB/s) should be amply fast enough for stereo recording, even at 24/96 (~ 0.55 MB/s)...
For what it's worth, I have been using class 4 cards in my M10 for several years with no issues (mostly at 24/48 but I have made some recordings at 24/96 too). Also, I think the Memory Stick Micro, Sony's proprietary card, clocks in around 3 MB/s.
I think trying another card is the only answer for now...thanks for your feedback. fwiw I was recording 16/44.1, so, I agree class 4 s/b good enough.
-
I just joined the club. Musician's Friend had a 15% promo running through today. I live in CA, so the governor got some of that back, but I still did OK, a rollback to 2011 prices, basically. Picked up a pair of AT853 card's in the yard sale. Now I get to try and figure out this new hobby!
-
I, too, use AData 32gb Class 4 MicroSDHC Cards with my m10's and so far **knocks on wood** have been great!
-
I always run class 6 or above
actually I run the transcend class 10's in
all of my units now, my camera sony nex -5n and my Panasonic HDC-sd600 and my tascam DR-680 including my M-10
and they can handle it all!
-
being that the M10 records / writes at "real time" there is no need to jump the class of the cards up for recording... but the reading after the show, that can help
-
When using the line out to listen to a recording on my stereo , sometimes when the unit is not in playing mode it makes a lot of noise. The kind of noise when you turn your amplifier to 10 ( any stereo always has noise ) and not in playing mode. Than when I unplug the cable ( offcourse with the speakers off ! ) and plug it in again it's over.
It does the same when I want to make a real time analog copy to a different recorder. And I'm not talking about a bit of noise , it sure is a lot .
Any ideas ?
-
When using the line out to listen to a recording on my stereo , sometimes when the unit is not in playing mode it makes a lot of noise. The kind of noise when you turn your amplifier to 10 ( any stereo always has noise ) and not in playing mode. Than when I unplug the cable ( offcourse with the speakers off ! ) and plug it in again it's over.
It does the same when I want to make a real time analog copy to a different recorder. And I'm not talking about a bit of noise , it sure is a lot .
Any ideas ?
I don't care for the A>D converter in the PCM-M10. Move the file to the computer and play it back on a better converter if you can. Sorry for the bad news...
-
I've been jacking it in to my car stereo on the way home after a show. I don't get (or haven't noticed in my noisy Jeep) the noise you describe, but I do get some weird phasing. I thought my last Wilco recording was hosed till I copied it to my laptop and put on some headphones. The A>D is great in the M-10. The D>A seems a little flaky.. Haven't ran any real tests, just anecdotal observation.
-
When using the line out to listen to a recording on my stereo , sometimes when the unit is not in playing mode it makes a lot of noise. The kind of noise when you turn your amplifier to 10 ( any stereo always has noise ) and not in playing mode. Than when I unplug the cable ( offcourse with the speakers off ! ) and plug it in again it's over.
It does the same when I want to make a real time analog copy to a different recorder. And I'm not talking about a bit of noise , it sure is a lot .
Any ideas ?
I don't care for the A>D converter in the PCM-M10. Move the file to the computer and play it back on a better converter if you can. Sorry for the bad news...
I always move the file to the computer . It's just I don't quite trust file transfers since I lost a few in the past with my HI MD recorders . Since than I always make a analog copy before hand. Better an analog copy than nothing at all...
I am wondering what causes that noise problem though .
-
I always move the file to the computer . It's just I don't quite trust file transfers since I lost a few in the past with my HI MD recorders . Since than I always make a analog copy before hand. Better an analog copy than nothing at all...
Unless I'm missing something that's unnecessary and a HUGE waste of time. Skip the analog copy and copy (not move) the digital file to the computer. If you copy the file to the computer, you should still have a perfect digital file on the M10's flash card even if you have a power failure or some other problem during the process. This may not be the case if you move the file instead of copy it.
Losing a file during a transfer was a known issue with mini-disc (though it never happened to me with my MZ-RH1). Not so with transfers of files from a flash drive to hard drive.
-
I always move the file to the computer . It's just I don't quite trust file transfers since I lost a few in the past with my HI MD recorders . Since than I always make a analog copy before hand. Better an analog copy than nothing at all...
Unless I'm missing something that's unnecessary and a HUGE waste of time. Skip the analog copy and copy (not move) the digital file to the computer. If you copy the file to the computer, you should still have a perfect digital file on the M10's flash card even if you have a power failure or some other problem during the process. This may not be the case if you move the file instead of copy it.
Losing a file during a transfer was a known issue with mini-disc (though it never happened to me with my MZ-RH1). Not so with transfers of files from a flash drive to hard drive.
99,9 % you are right . But for that 0,01 % chance something happens with the micro SD card , I'm happy to have another copy .
It'll never happen I loose a file due to a file transfer.
Besides, believe it or not , I really don't hear the difference between this recorder and minidisc . Technically there is , offcourse...but in reality I don't think anyone can hear the difference . And I have a great stereo set up where you should be able to tell the difference . An analog copy sounds as good as the original to me on Minidisc . And it saves me all the work at the computer .
Sure , I keep the original file on my hard drive . But I never do anything with it at all .
I wonder how everyone listens to their recordings anyway ?
I'd like to listen to my recordings on a hifi stereo set . Not on the computer for sure . And I dislike CDR's or DVD's ( scratches , storage etc. ).
-
believe it or not , I really don't hear the difference between this recorder and minidisc . Technically there is , offcourse...but in reality I don't think anyone can hear the difference . And I have a great stereo set up where you should be able to tell the difference .
I never heard a difference either (using Sennheiser HD650 phones), even with the Hi-SP mode which I usually used to avoid having to change discs during a show.
-
believe it or not , I really don't hear the difference between this recorder and minidisc . Technically there is , offcourse...but in reality I don't think anyone can hear the difference . And I have a great stereo set up where you should be able to tell the difference .
I never heard a difference either (using Sennheiser HD650 phones), even with the Hi-SP mode which I usually used to avoid having to change discs during a show.
Cool . So how do you listen to your recordings than , and anyone else here ?
-
Cool . So how do you listen to your recordings than , and anyone else here ?
Usually Hard Drive > Windows 7 Computer > Topping TP30 USB DAC/T Amp > Sennheiser HD650 Phones w/Cardas Cable (or Polk bookshelf speakers if I don't need too much bass).
Sometimes Rockboxed Sansa E280 MP3 player (8 GB + 32 GB MIcro SD card).
Usually listen to my music when using my computer. Home stereo mainly used for movies.
-
Cool . So how do you listen to your recordings than , and anyone else here ?
I send the recordings out to be transcribed to musical notes.
-
Cool . So how do you listen to your recordings than , and anyone else here ?
I send the recordings out to be transcribed to musical notes.
AWESOME! :)
-
I don't tape to listen to music after-the-fact.
I just like to look at waveforms and patterns of ones and zeroes. Preferably on punch cards.
-
I'm sorry if this has been covered in this conversation before. I tried to search for it, but couldn't find it...
Has anyone used 32gb micro sd cards in the m-10? Does this work? If so, any specific cards to recommend?
-colargol
-
I'm sorry if this has been covered in this conversation before. I tried to search for it, but couldn't find it...
Has anyone used 32gb micro sd cards in the m-10? Does this work? If so, any specific cards to recommend?
-colargol
I think this thread will help you
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147879.0
at least a couple of people have used a 32GB card sucessfully.
-
I think this thread will help you
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147879.0
at least a couple of people have used a 32GB card sucessfully.
Thanks, just what I was looking for :-) Can't see what happens so that it doesn't show up when I search...
I'll get a sandisk 32gb micro sd, will report on that page whether it works fine...
-c
-
(late to the game)
FWIW I copy all shows to my hard drive from the microSD and only format the card before the "next" show, so that way I have a backup (short term) in case something happens to my PC or my 2nd PC backup
-
I think this thread will help you
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147879.0
at least a couple of people have used a 32GB card sucessfully.
Thanks, just what I was looking for :-) Can't see what happens so that it doesn't show up when I search...
I'll get a sandisk 32gb micro sd, will report on that page whether it works fine...
-c
Make sure you get a class 10 micro sd card .
Why do you need 32 gb anyway ? Unless you are recording a complete festival , 16 gb should be plenty . Even on the highest quality you're still getting over 7 hours ...
-
Make sure you get a class 10 micro sd card .
Yes, that will come in handy for 4-track recording at 48/384...
-
What aaronji means is, really, let's not go overboard on the microSD specs. Class 4 or class 6 should be more than sufficient if you are using a good brand like SanDisk. Unless you've figured out a way to record HD video with the PCM-M10.
-
What aaronji means is, really, let's not go overboard on the microSD specs. Class 4 or class 6 should be more than sufficient if you are using a good brand like SanDisk. Unless you've figured out a way to record HD video with the PCM-M10.
Some people may make funny comments , but I wonder what people holds back from recording at the highest rate and buying the best and fastest card ? Does a class 10 card costs $500.00 or more ? It doesn't , and we've had people here at this board having trouble with cards less than class 10 . So why not advising the best card on the market ?
Same as the eternal discussion about 96/24 etc. Does storage costs a fortune also ?
I'm the proud owner of a PCM M10 , thanks to advice I followed from some people here . I was glad I bought a Lexar class 10 card . I am having NO problems whatsoever on my recordings ( knock on wood ) using 96 / 24 .
-
Some people may make funny comments , but I wonder what people holds back from recording at the highest rate and buying the best and fastest card ? Does a class 10 card costs $500.00 or more ? It doesn't , and we've had people here at this board having trouble with cards less than class 10 . So why not advising the best card on the market ?
Same as the eternal discussion about 96/24 etc. Does storage costs a fortune also ?
Why not record at the highest rate? Maybe because it doubles the storage requirement for a negligible benefit in audio quality. Storage might not cost a fortune, but it costs enough, especially with redundancy.
As for the cards, why is class 10 "best"? You're advocating buying a Ferrari to drive in the bike lane...How do you know the issues people faced were due to class? The answer is you don't. I have had two name brand class 10 cards fail, as well as cards in other speed classes. Like everything, these cards just wear out over time and will all fail at some point. Personally, I would rather have two quality cards at lower speed than one at higher speed.
I'm the proud owner of a PCM M10 , thanks to advice I followed from some people here . I was glad I bought a Lexar class 10 card . I am having NO problems whatsoever on my recordings ( knock on wood ) using 96 / 24 .
Anecdote, not evidence. There are many individuals using a wide variety of cards that haven't failed. That doesn't mean they won't eventually, or that someone else with the same card won't have issues.
The bottom line: buy and use whatever makes you happy. The numbers really don't support the necessity of high speed cards, though. A class 2 card (2 MB/s), operating at half it's rated speed, would still be almost double the requirement for stereo 24/96 (0.55 MB/s)...
-
I'd argue counterfeiters are more likely to target the higher rated cards. Just as they're more likely to target sony batteries rather than aftermarket brands.
I think mine is a class 4. Never had problems at 24/96. Not really even worth discussing, imho.
Class 2 is 2 MB/sec MINIMUM performance. Class 10 is 10 MB/sec.
24/96 at 2 channels is .55 MB/sec.
-
I'd argue counterfeiters are more likely to target the higher rated cards. Just as they're more likely to target sony batteries rather than aftermarket brands.
I think mine is a class 4. Never had problems at 24/96. Not really even worth discussing, imho.
Class 2 is 2 MB/sec MINIMUM performance. Class 10 is 10 MB/sec.
24/96 at 2 channels is .55 MB/sec.
Mine are Sandisk Class 4 and I've never had an issue running 24/96.
-
I have run Class 4 16gb and 32gb with no problems at all
-
I have a bunch of microSD cards from broken droids at work. They are all sandisc brand rated 2, 4 and some don't even have a class stamp on them. They all work fine at 24/96 in my m10. (The non class stamped ones don't work in my cannon hd camera fwiw....).
-
I've been using an extremely cheap no name class 6 card from eBay for the last few shows and haven't had any problems at all (24/96).
-
Why not record at the highest rate? Maybe because it doubles the storage requirement for a negligible benefit in audio quality. Storage might not cost a fortune, but it costs enough, especially with redundancy.
Exactly! I wouldn't dream of recording at 24/96. Can't hear any difference in audio quality plus there's probably a better chance of getting glitches in the recording at 24/96 if you happen to be using a card that can't keep up.
-
Why not record at the highest rate? Maybe because it doubles the storage requirement for a negligible benefit in audio quality. Storage might not cost a fortune, but it costs enough, especially with redundancy.
Exactly! I wouldn't dream of recording at 24/96. Can't hear any difference in audio quality plus there's probably a better chance of getting glitches in the recording at 24/96 if you happen to be using a card that can't keep up.
As someone who tapes EVERYTHING (M10 and 722) at 24/96, I would like some technical proof of the above... "better chance", please back that up with technical proof not just assumptions.
And considering that all decks record at "real-time" there is no difference (when recording) of a class 2 or a class 10... not to mention, that the class ratings are manufacturer specific and dont follow the SD industry standards. You are more likely to see better ratings from the bigger names (not not always, A-Data is notorious for over rating by big chunks)
-
Why not record at the highest rate? Maybe because it doubles the storage requirement for a negligible benefit in audio quality. Storage might not cost a fortune, but it costs enough, especially with redundancy.
Exactly! I wouldn't dream of recording at 24/96. Can't hear any difference in audio quality plus there's probably a better chance of getting glitches in the recording at 24/96 if you happen to be using a card that can't keep up.
As I've said before , when I used DAT for a while I recorded everything on LP. I couldn't hear the difference between LP and SP . But now , 20 years later , tapes recorded on LP have more drop outs and digital noise than the ones I recorded on SP . Most of these are still great . Those are facts for me. Same as cassette's I recorded in the 80's on more expensive tapes over cheaper tapes. The chrome tapes ( like TDK SA etc. ) are holding up much better than the cheap tapes ( which I didn't use much , lucky enough ).
Who knows how recordings hold up when recorded in a lower bit rate . I'm not taking a chance . It's not only about what you can hear . There must be a difference , why would Sony add 96 / 24 on the recorder anyway ?
And if there's something inexpensive it's data storage these days . It's almost next to nothing ...
2 TB goes for $ 150.00 . 1 hour on 96 / 24 takes 2 GB ...so you can store aprox 1000 hours on a 2 TB hard drive . That's 0,15 cents per hour . To store a 3 hour concert would cost about $ 0,45 . That's what we're talking about . You can't get a beer for that , or park your car for that . Let alone , you couldn't buy any media in the past for that price ( DAT tapes , MD blanks or even cassette's ).
plus there's probably a better chance of getting glitches in the recording at 24/96 if you happen to be using a card that can't keep up.
That's why you need a class 10 card !
-
That's why you need a class 10 card !
Again, why? for what technical research has proved this?
I record 100+ bands a year, and used class 2 or 4 cards, and never seen a glitch... and I have some 70gb+ of 24/96 music from 1/1/12 to last night's show (not including the 2 years before of M10 or 722 recordings)
-
There must be a difference , why would Sony add 96 / 24 on the recorder anyway ?
Marketing...
And if there's something inexpensive it's data storage these days . It's almost next to nothing ...
2 TB goes for $ 150.00 . 1 hour on 96 / 24 takes 2 GB ...so you can store aprox 1000 hours on a 2 TB hard drive . That's 0,15 cents per hour . To store a 3 hour concert would cost about $ 0,45 . That's what we're talking about . You can't get a beer for that , or park your car for that . Let alone , you couldn't buy any media in the past for that price ( DAT tapes , MD blanks or even cassette's ).
Plus the backup drive at home. Plus the offsite backup. Plus the multiple copies of each recording (raw, edited, downsampled for CD/portable). Plus all of the other files you need to store (other's recordings, commercial music, photos, videos, etc.)...
The gain from getting better mics will far outweigh whatever advantage (you think) 96 kHz sampling is giving you.
-
The gain from getting better mics will far outweigh whatever advantage (you think) 96 kHz sampling is giving you.
This point is somewhat invalid. The goal is to make the best out of whatever gear you have. And this is achieved by using the biggest possible bit depth and sampling rate.
Let me try an analogy here. You're a photographer and you have the choice of taking pictures with a 5 megapixel camera or a 20 megapixel camera. Which one would you use? For me, that decision would be a no-brainer, even though nobody can see a difference between the two on their computer screens. However, if you zoom in to the pictures far enough, you will eventually see a difference. The 20 mp camera simply stores more image information, hence a better representation of the picture.
Of course we're not photographers, but audio recordists. We are capturing sound waves. These audio signals are converted to digital information by the recorder's a/d converter. A higher sampling rate produces a more accurate representation of the analog sound wave than a lower sampling rate will. It's as simple as that. And I'll always go with the best possible representation of the original signal.
When you look at a sound wave like a graph, it's as simple as that:
bit depth = accuracy of the vertical part of the sound wave (y axis)
sampling rate = accuracy of the horizontal part of the sound wave (x axis)
I don't see a point in increasing the accuracy of just one axis. I max out the accuracy of both ;)
-
And it isn't just about storage either. For those of us who do post processing, the additional time post processing can really add up. For a 90 minute set, every time I either do an analysis step to find out what my max and RMS levels are or do a processing step, it takes 2-3 minutes on a 24/48 file. And I'll easily have 10-12 of those steps, so 25-30 minutes of processing time per set, include file saves, file transfers and the time it takes to open the file into my DAW software, it is easily over an hour of computing time just for a teo set show. Make that 24/96 and it just doubled to take 2 hours for processing time alone to transfer my shows.
I have a backlog of hundreds of shows I need to transfer. That is a whole lot of my time for very dubious benefit, if any.
There are lots of threads on this topic. There is no evidence whatsoever that for any piece of gear that given the necessary filters or whatever that need to be implemented that 96 will be better than 48. Yep, it isn't even that you might not hear the difference, it is simply that without serious, rigorous testing, you will never know if you may be making significantly worse recordings with your particular gear by recording at 96 insteadmof 48. And then add in playback. With my playback, I can only listen at up to 24/48 natively. So if I record at 96, I will need to do post processing to get back to 24/48 to listen to it, and others may need it processed down to 16/44 to listen to it. Again, the DAW software might make the signal far worse to start at 24/96 and re-sample back to 24/48 than it would have been if you just recorded at 24/48 to begin with.
Which is all to say, everyone can do whatever they feel is best, but there is no absolute right and wrong -- it is just a personal choice.
-
The gain from getting better mics will far outweigh whatever advantage (you think) 96 kHz sampling is giving you.
This point is somewhat invalid. The goal is to make the best out of whatever gear you have. And this is achieved by using the biggest possible bit depth and sampling rate.
Actually, I don't think the point is invalid. If as I say above, the amount of processing time matters to me, if I want to record at 24/96 instead of my current 24/48, then I need to buy a new computer that is twice as fast. Or I could keep the computer I have, record at 24/48, and spend the money I would have spent on a new computer and get better mics. i think my recordings sound better recorded at 24/48 when I keep my 4 year old computer and put my available funds into better mics. Others choose newer and faster computers, I choose to put more of my available money into taping gear.
And the analogy to photography just really doesn't hold. Again, there are numerous threads on this topic already.
A higher sampling rate produces a more accurate representation of the analog sound wave than a lower sampling rate will. It's as simple as that. And I'll always go with the best possible representation of the original signal.
It isn't just about the bit depth or sampling frequency, it is also about the brickwall filters that need to be implemented, and whether implementing those filters at higher frequencies degrade the signal more than they would have been at lesser frequencies. For any given gear, recording at 96 could actually be worse than recording at 48, and you won't know without rigorous testing. And manufacturers don't necessarily want to do that testing, since they want market their gear as 24/96 gear.
-
Thinking about it more, if it helps with the camera analogy --
More megapixels are better, so you'd rather a 20mp camera over a 10mp camera. But what if the 20mp camera mfg couldn't really make a reliable sensor, and with their 20mp sensor, they randomly would get 5% of the pixels that would show up pink, no matter what you were taking a picture of. Now, would you rather have the 20mp camera or the 10mp camera? What if the camera had a button for 10mp operation (and the pixels were all accurate) and a setting for 20mp operation, but again, you'd get a whoe bunch of pink pixels. Which settign would you choose?
The issue is actual, real world operation, not theoretical operation. None of us really knows whther our recorders or A/D's actually perform worse when set to perform at 24/96, and there is a lot of info out there that getting performance at 96 to be better than 48 is no easy task.
-
A higher sampling rate produces a more accurate representation of the analog sound wave than a lower sampling rate will. It's as simple as that. And I'll always go with the best possible representation of the original signal.
In addition to what Todd said, please google "Nyquist" and "sampling theory", not to mention frequency response of human hearing, and then tell me "it's as simple as that"...
-
Human hearing? Who said we are all humans?
-
In addition to what Todd said, please google "Nyquist" and "sampling theory", not to mention frequency response of human hearing, and then tell me "it's as simple as that"...
Actually, I don't have to Google that. I still have my lecture notes from University ;)
What the Nyquist theorem states is that, to fully represent a signal with a frequency component F, you need at least a sampling frequency of 2F. For sampling frequencies >2F, the resulting digital representation will still be more accurate. While it's not necessary to represent frequencies higher than what the human ear can hear, the frequencies we can hear will be represented more accurately.
-
I'm sorry if this has been covered in this conversation before. I tried to search for it, but couldn't find it...
Has anyone used 32gb micro sd cards in the m-10? Does this work? If so, any specific cards to recommend?
-colargol
I like the Lexar Class 10 microSDHC cards. I've been using one in my M10 since February without incident. Love having over 30 hours available at 48/24. :)
-
What the Nyquist theorem states is that, to fully represent a signal with a frequency component F, you need at least a sampling frequency of 2F. For sampling frequencies >2F, the resulting digital representation will still be more accurate. While it's not necessary to represent frequencies higher than what the human ear can hear, the frequencies we can hear will be represented more accurately.
The other keyword there is "fully". Other sources use "exactly", "perfectly", and "completely". Maybe I am wrong, but the way I read it (in many sources) is that once you get above 2F there is no value in further increasing. In fact, that is the point of the theorem. As Lavry puts it:
The notion that more is better may appeal to one's common sense. Presented with analogies such as more pixels for better video, or faster clock to speed computers, one may be misled to believe that faster sampling will yield better resolution and detail. The analogies are wrong. The great value offered by Nyquist's theorem is the realization that we have ALL the information with 100% of the detail, and no distortions, without the burden of "extra fast" sampling.
-
The other keyword there is "fully". Other sources use "exactly", "perfectly", and "completely". Maybe I am wrong, but the way I read it (in many sources) is that once you get above 2F there is no value in further increasing. In fact, that is the point of the theorem. As Lavry puts it:
The notion that more is better may appeal to one's common sense. Presented with analogies such as more pixels for better video, or faster clock to speed computers, one may be misled to believe that faster sampling will yield better resolution and detail. The analogies are wrong. The great value offered by Nyquist's theorem is the realization that we have ALL the information with 100% of the detail, and no distortions, without the burden of "extra fast" sampling.
This is correct. All original frequencies are represented fully in a signal sampled with twice the highest frequency.
However, oversampling has some advantages, according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversampling):
Oversampling helps avoid aliasing, improves resolution and reduces noise.
I have yet to see any proof that oversampling could in any way do any damage to a recording. Yes, processing takes significantly longer, but that is not a problem for me. Yes, 96kHz recordings will take up twice the space of 48kHz ones, but space is dirt cheap these days and I have enough of it.
There's really no need to argue over this. As far as I'm concerned, everybody can do it as they like. This was my last comment on this subject.
-
More megapixels are better
Depends on the implementation - if packed into the same space as less MP then noise usually increases noticably.
Now what was this thread about?
-
I'd like to hear some first-hand opinions on running small mics w/ the M10 for high SPL shows. Batt box necessary..? Low sens capsules necessary..? Does the M10 provide adequate plug in power for smaller mics? What are your favorite mics? FWIW I run full-size rig..so this smaller application is all new to me.
-
The M10's plugin voltage is fairly low. While some mics will work with it, a battery box is highly recommended especially for high SPL shows.
-
I'd like to hear some first-hand opinions on running small mics w/ the M10 for high SPL shows. Batt box necessary..? Low sens capsules necessary..? Does the M10 provide adequate plug in power for smaller mics? What are your favorite mics? FWIW I run full-size rig..so this smaller application is all new to me.
Why would you not like to use a batterybox ?
Are there actually quality mic's for sale that don't have batteryboxes ? I can only think of the cheapest mic's on the market , like Sony used to make them .
Core Sound has a low cost version of their mic's available that require no batterybox ( http://www.core-sound.com/lcmics/1.php ) but why opt for a cheap version anyway if you are a serious taper ?
-
I'd like to hear some first-hand opinions on running small mics w/ the M10 for high SPL shows. Batt box necessary..? Low sens capsules necessary..? Does the M10 provide adequate plug in power for smaller mics? What are your favorite mics? FWIW I run full-size rig..so this smaller application is all new to me.
Why would you not like to use a batterybox ?
but why opt for a cheap version anyway if you are a serious taper ?
Not sure...seeking answers...I'm unfamiliar with battery boxes and the need for them. Logic dictates - I have something (an M10) that can provide plug in power...so why add another piece (like a battery box) to the chain..? I guess that's the question.
Serious taper....not sure who/what that is...I've had my moments. :-*
-
^^^ The DSM mics from guysonic work well with PIP from the M10 (according to guysonic; I have never tried it myself). DPA has a DC version of the 4061s (I think they are 4063s?) that might also work. There are probably others as well...Someone here (illconditioned?) posted about a few mics with which he had success.
-
^^^ The DSM mics from guysonic work well with PIP from the M10 (according to guysonic; I have never tried it myself). DPA has a DC version of the 4061s (I think they are 4063s?) that might also work. There are probably others as well...Someone here (illconditioned?) posted about a few mics with which he had success.
Did anyone ever compare the types of mics that run well on PIP with ones that need a battery box and/or test PIP-qualified mics for sound quality related parameters?
I mean: is there really nothing to lose by going PIP-only when doing loud stuff with PIP-specific mics?
Links to posts etc are welcome.
-
I'd like to hear some first-hand opinions on running small mics w/ the M10 for high SPL shows. Batt box necessary..? Low sens capsules necessary..? Does the M10 provide adequate plug in power for smaller mics? What are your favorite mics? FWIW I run full-size rig..so this smaller application is all new to me.
Why would you not like to use a batterybox ?
but why opt for a cheap version anyway if you are a serious taper ?
Not sure...seeking answers...I'm unfamiliar with battery boxes and the need for them. Logic dictates - I have something (an M10) that can provide plug in power...so why add another piece (like a battery box) to the chain..? I guess that's the question.
Serious taper....not sure who/what that is...I've had my moments. :-*
The key point here, is that not all recorders put out the same voltage for plug-in power. The M10 in particular is fairly anemic, and while it will work with a few mics and quieter material, in most cases it isn't enough and a 9V battery box will be much more reliable. The Church Audio battery box is basically a cap that fits on the end of a 9V battery. Can't get much smaller.
-
^^^ The DSM mics from guysonic work well with PIP from the M10 (according to guysonic; I have never tried it myself). DPA has a DC version of the 4061s (I think they are 4063s?) that might also work. There are probably others as well...Someone here (illconditioned?) posted about a few mics with which he had success.
Did anyone ever compare the types of mics that run well on PIP with ones that need a battery box and/or test PIP-qualified mics for sound quality related parameters?
I mean: is there really nothing to lose by going PIP-only when doing loud stuff with PIP-specific mics?
Links to posts etc are welcome.
I guesss that's really the crux.
Scoob, aaronji....thanks for your inputs.
-
there is another question that bugs me:
how "clean" is the signal you get from the PA system at a very loud show? I mean: does 2% THD from the mics due to lack of PIP level matter when you get 5% from PA and speakers, because they are both driven to their limits? And what about noise and hum from the PA system?
Greetings,
Rainer
BTW some great reading about the performance of human hearing:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/human-hearing-amplitude-sensitivity-part-1
http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/human-hearing-phase-distortion-audibility-part-2
http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/human-hearing-distortion-audibility-part-3
http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/human-hearing-reprise-part-4
-
If the M10 has a basic clock rate of 48kHz, then wouldn't it double the clock jitter when you divide that in half to record at 96? I'm not planning to slow my recordings down by an octave, so I don't think I need to record signals higher than about 24000 cps.
-
Just wanted to share a LOL moment . . .
Bought a M-10 a few months ago. Love it. Retired the trusty JB3 after about a decade of service in the field. Running AKG 481/3 > Oade m-248 > GAK interconnects > M-10.
First time out, I was running in a pair of ceiling mounts, spaced about 25' and each equidistant to the PA stacks at our local venue. I noticed immediately that the left channel was much stronger than the right (or the right was much weaker than the left). I compensated with the Oade by adjusting the gain knobs accordingly and recorded the show. Back at home, I read all of the M-10 threads to see if this was a common/uncommon problem. Saw some similar issues, but hoped that I didn't get a bad unit.
Next time out, same thing only with the different channel. Frustrating.
Third times a charm. In setting up for the third outing, I happened to take a look at the filter switch on one of the mics - lo and behold, it had somehow gotten switched to low. I've never, ever touched them. Changed it back to zero (0). Miracle upon miracles, both left and right channels were happily paired.
Problem and mystery solved.
Game on.
-
I hope this question isn't seen as being in poor taste here.
But, I'm considering going from R-09HR to PCM10. The rest of my rig is: CA Ugly or ST9100 preamp, and CA14 cards or DPA 4061's.
Anyway, is there a summary of these massive PCM10 threads somewhere? I thought I would ask before slogging through parts 1-6.
thanks
Chris
-
I hope this question isn't seen as being in poor taste here.
But, I'm considering going from R-09HR to PCM10. The rest of my rig is: CA Ugly or ST9100 preamp, and CA14 cards or DPA 4061's.
Anyway, is there a summary of these massive PCM10 threads somewhere? I thought I would ask before slogging through parts 1-6.
thanks
Chris
You can start here at the beginnings of an FAQ thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147551.0
-
I hope this question isn't seen as being in poor taste here.
But, I'm considering going from R-09HR to PCM10. The rest of my rig is: CA Ugly or ST9100 preamp, and CA14 cards or DPA 4061's.
Anyway, is there a summary of these massive PCM10 threads somewhere? I thought I would ask before slogging through parts 1-6.
thanks
Chris
Do it! The battery life alone is worth it.
-
I hope this question isn't seen as being in poor taste here.
But, I'm considering going from R-09HR to PCM10. The rest of my rig is: CA Ugly or ST9100 preamp, and CA14 cards or DPA 4061's.
Anyway, is there a summary of these massive PCM10 threads somewhere? I thought I would ask before slogging through parts 1-6.
thanks
Chris
Do it! The battery life alone is worth it.
Bryonsos, I know this isn't thread appropriate, but after not hearing from you for 3 or so days (even though you'd be online), I saw in another thread that mentioned that new members to the forum are limited to the amount of PMs they can send and receive in order to cut back on spam. With that being said, I don't think I've gotten your latest PM(s) to me. Could you email me at smbtapes.productions@gmail.com so we can continue on with our mic loaning agreement? Thanks! :)
-
^^^ The DSM mics from guysonic work well with PIP from the M10 (according to guysonic; I have never tried it myself). DPA has a DC version of the 4061s (I think they are 4063s?) that might also work. There are probably others as well...Someone here (illconditioned?) posted about a few mics with which he had success.
Illconditioned wrote that that the AT853 mics and CA-11's, among others, do fine recording loud shows without a box. Of course the AT853's probably need the 4.7 mod whether you use a box or not. Chris Church does not recommend that the CA-11s be used without a box, but I haven't heard of anyone trying it who had a problem.
-
I got my M10 yesterday, made the mistake of buying a standard SD card, you want the micro SD for that. FYI. BH didn't catch my mistake. Tinybox-M10-MK41: awesomely small package!
-
What settings give the best results when using an M10-Church Audio Battery Box- Church Audio CA-14 Cards??
-
What settings give the best results when using an M10-Church Audio Battery Box- Church Audio CA-14 Cards??
Line in.
Levels peaking near -6 dB.
-
^^^ Personally, I would go mic-in unless it is quite loud; the mic input is quiet and can take a pretty hot signal. Line-in with a battery box won't give good levels for quieter sources, especially with less sensitive mics.
-
^^^ The DSM mics from guysonic work well with PIP from the M10 (according to guysonic; I have never tried it myself). DPA has a DC version of the 4061s (I think they are 4063s?) that might also work. There are probably others as well...Someone here (illconditioned?) posted about a few mics with which he had success.
Illconditioned wrote that that the AT853 mics and CA-11's, among others, do fine recording loud shows without a box. Of course the AT853's probably need the 4.7 mod whether you use a box or not. Chris Church does not recommend that the CA-11s be used without a box, but I haven't heard of anyone trying it who had a problem.
i recently recorded a few shows with 853 > tb > m10
no mod
came out fine
-
^^^ Personally, I would go mic-in unless it is quite loud; the mic input is quiet and can take a pretty hot signal. Line-in with a battery box won't give good levels for quieter sources, especially with less sensitive mics.
What would be a good number to start with on the rec level going mic-in on the M10?? I recorded my first show with the M10 at rec level 3 / mic-in and there was a noticeable hiss / noise on the recording. I've had my M10 and mics etc. checked and they are all fine, so I guess a rec level of 3 was too low. Would rec level of 6 be too high to start with going mic-in? I like to just set a level and put the recorder in my pocket and not be checking the levels throughout the gig.
I also have a Zoom H1 and have used the same mic's/battery box with the Zoom h1 and record at around 25/100 and never had this hiss/noise on a recording.
-
Did you ever put the Zoom and the Sony in front of your stereo, cranked at 11, to get a feel of what the Zoom setting compares to on the Sony?
Asking for a level setting does not make any sense without providing the exact venue, spot in the venue, band name and sound tech name at the mixing console plus a reference to the local legal sound pressure levels.
(besides the details of the gear of course)
-
What would be a good number to start with on the rec level going mic-in on the M10?? I recorded my first show with the M10 at rec level 3 / mic-in and there was a noticeable hiss / noise on the recording. I've had my M10 and mics etc. checked and they are all fine, so I guess a rec level of 3 was too low. Would rec level of 6 be too high to start with going mic-in? I like to just set a level and put the recorder in my pocket and not be checking the levels throughout the gig.
I also have a Zoom H1 and have used the same mic's/battery box with the Zoom h1 and record at around 25/100 and never had this hiss/noise on a recording.
What were your levels like in that recording? I would be surprised if the pre in the H1 was quieter than the M10's...
-
What would be a good number to start with on the rec level going mic-in on the M10?? I recorded my first show with the M10 at rec level 3 / mic-in and there was a noticeable hiss / noise on the recording. I've had my M10 and mics etc. checked and they are all fine, so I guess a rec level of 3 was too low. Would rec level of 6 be too high to start with going mic-in? I like to just set a level and put the recorder in my pocket and not be checking the levels throughout the gig.
I also have a Zoom H1 and have used the same mic's/battery box with the Zoom h1 and record at around 25/100 and never had this hiss/noise on a recording.
What were your levels like in that recording? I would be surprised if the pre in the H1 was quieter than the M10's...
They were peaking at around -23.
-
^^^ That's probably the problem; I think the signal wasn't loud enough with respect to the noise inherent in your recording chain. You should aim to peak considerably higher than that. Many here say -12 dB. Personally, I shoot for -6 dB or even a little higher.
-
^^^ That's probably the problem; I think the signal wasn't loud enough with respect to the noise inherent in your recording chain. You should aim to peak considerably higher than that. Many here say -12 dB. Personally, I shoot for -6 dB or even a little higher.
Yeah, I think that is the problem. I'am going to record another gig this week with the M10. I think I need to push the rec level up to around 6, going mic in to get the -12db or better. Thanks for your help.
-
If anyone is interested in how the CA-14's cards sound with just PIP on the PCM, there's a sample here: http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=414767
(http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=414767) (Kenny Wayne Shepherd 2012-07-27 Wendover, NV)
I've been waiting for a CA ugly pre since mid-May so have been using just PIP with good results (IMO)
-
I had an odd problem yesterday- I uploaded all of my recordings from Friday and Saturday to my hard drive and deleted them from the SD. I probably should have re-formatted, but I didn't. I had not completely filled the card. When I started recording on Sunday, it managed to reset itself to internal memory and subsequently crapped out after 2-1/2 sets. It took me a bit to figure out why it shut down- I changed batteries then it said "memory full" so I thought maybe I needed to clean up the deleted files or something, started looking for a recycle bin to dump or something but finally hit on the memory setting and saw that it had been reset to internal.
So, has anyone had this problem and do I need to check the status of this setting every time I record?
Other than that the recorder was pure joy to work with and runs longer than all day on a pair of AA's, either alkaline or NiMH.
-
^^^ Did you remove the card to transfer the files? I am pretty sure it defaults to internal memory if you remove the microSD...
-
^^^ Did you remove the card to transfer the files? I am pretty sure it defaults to internal memory if you remove the microSD...
Maybe not, I think the battery change is the culprit. That or the fact you deleted files via PC and didn't reformat. I always use a card reader to transfer files, but I don't delete things on the card, I reformat when it gets full. I regularly put partially filled cards back in the deck and haven't had it default to the internal memory. I think I took the card out once while the deck was powered up, and it defaulted.
-
^^^ Make sure your micro SD cards is in the correct way. I think it can go in upside down and not be recognized thus defaulting to internal. ^^
-
^^^ Make sure your micro SD cards is in the correct way. I think it can go in upside down and not be recognized thus defaulting to internal. ^^
I was just going to post that. It can be very confusing! Especially if you almost never remove the card.
Plus, the correct way is contacts facing up. That seems the opposite of most devices.
-
^^^ Did you remove the card to transfer the files? I am pretty sure it defaults to internal memory if you remove the microSD...
Maybe not, I think the battery change is the culprit. That or the fact you deleted files via PC and didn't reformat. I always use a card reader to transfer files, but I don't delete things on the card, I reformat when it gets full. I regularly put partially filled cards back in the deck and haven't had it default to the internal memory. I think I took the card out once while the deck was powered up, and it defaulted.
I think you are right. I am trying to remember how I made it do this; I seem to recall that it defaults to internal memory if you swap the card for a different card. I think it also does that if you change the contents of the card using a card reader and then re-insert the same card. I don't have it in front of me, though, so I could definitely be wrong!
-
^^^ Did you remove the card to transfer the files? I am pretty sure it defaults to internal memory if you remove the microSD...
Maybe not, I think the battery change is the culprit. That or the fact you deleted files via PC and didn't reformat. I always use a card reader to transfer files, but I don't delete things on the card, I reformat when it gets full. I regularly put partially filled cards back in the deck and haven't had it default to the internal memory. I think I took the card out once while the deck was powered up, and it defaulted.
I think you are right. I am trying to remember how I made it do this; I seem to recall that it defaults to internal memory if you swap the card for a different card. I think it also does that if you change the contents of the card using a card reader and then re-insert the same card. I don't have it in front of me, though, so I could definitely be wrong!
Battery Swap or Card Swap resets memory to internal. One more reason to make sure that Cross Memory Recording is turned on.
That said the act of switching to Memory Card from internal is also my test that the Memory Card is inserted properly. MicroSD cards will fit in the right way but not seat properly. If the memory card isn't in right, the unit won't let you switch to the Memory Card.
-
^^^ On mine, changing the batteries doesn't make it switch to internal memory...
-
^^^ On mine, changing the batteries doesn't make it switch to internal memory...
My bad.
What I get for posting from memory without checking my unit. ::)
-
I've found that sometimes the card doesn't sit quite right when it is replaced and that this causes the unit to default to internal memory.
There seems to be a bit of free play in the slot so the card can go in at a very slight angle that obviously doesn't make proper contact.
-
I've found that sometimes the card doesn't sit quite right when it is replaced and that this causes the unit to default to internal memory.
There seems to be a bit of free play in the slot so the card can go in at a very slight angle that obviously doesn't make proper contact.
I always have trouble putting my 32gb/16gb microsdhc cards back into my M10's :P
-
Well, I hadn't pulled the card or changed the batteries or even filled the card up when it switched over. Just plugged in the usb, pulled the files, and deleted them. That being said, it sounds like a quick check of this setting isn't a bad idea- perhaps there is some icon on the record screen that indicates that? Perhaps using the USB has the same effect as pulling the card as the recorder probably is not physically connected during transfer.
-
I pull my cards out so they xfer ALOT FASTER compared to using the M10's USB jack. But sometimes when I dont feel like pulling the card and I have enuf time, I leave the card in and use the USB jack!
-
Thanks for the tip.
One cool thing that the unit can be used for- playing high resolution files on the stereo.
-
Thanks for the tip.
One cool thing that the unit can be used for- playing high resolution files on the stereo.
I get some funky phasing sometimes using the M10 as a player. Both jacked in to my car and into my home stereo. I've thought I got a crappy pull before, but once transferred to my laptop, it sounds fine. Doesn't always do it. I jack the M10 into the car stereo after the show and play my recording on the way home.
-
Hi guys!
I'm noticing some hiss/static noise on my M10. Here are the steps to isolate it:
- Turn gain to 0
- Plug in some good headphones and turn up the volume (I use Etymotic ER4-P earphones, so in my case it's up to its max, 30)
- Press record. Static noise is audible.
- Normalize the recorded file. It is filled with static noise.
I've played with the settings but i keep noticing this regardless of the mic used, whether internal or external, PIP on or off, etc. To me, this sounds like this is produced internally by some circuitry inside the M10 itself. Once i stop recording, this hiss stops within 3-5 seconds unless i keep the device 'active' after recording by pressing some buttons.
Anyone else noticed this? Do i simply have a lemon or is this something normal that is to be expected with all recorders, to some degree?
-
- Turn gain to 0
That fully attenuates the input and all that is left is noise.
Probably as expected, especially if you subsequently crank the gain on the result.
-
Well, I hadn't pulled the card or changed the batteries or even filled the card up when it switched over. Just plugged in the usb, pulled the files, and deleted them. That being said, it sounds like a quick check of this setting isn't a bad idea- perhaps there is some icon on the record screen that indicates that? Perhaps using the USB has the same effect as pulling the card as the recorder probably is not physically connected during transfer.
For me, the indicator is the available record time. Internal memory is 4GB, (4 hours at 24/48) and my card is 16GB. If I see less than 4 hours available, I most likely am on internal memory.
-
^^^ I may be mistaken, but I think there is a small memory card indicator, just above the battery meter, that lights up when a memory card is inserted and selected. If I recall correctly, there is nothing there when the internal memory is selected (or no card is inserted)...
-
^^^ I may be mistaken, but I think there is a small memory card indicator, just above the battery meter, that lights up when a memory card is inserted and selected. If I recall correctly, there is nothing there when the internal memory is selected (or no card is inserted)...
Verified, hadn't noticed it. Cool.
-
- Turn gain to 0
That fully attenuates the input and all that is left is noise.
Probably as expected, especially if you subsequently crank the gain on the result.
Actually the noise i'm talking about can be heard even after the recording has been stopped for a few seconds, and sounds different from the usual room noise. I may be mistaken, but if i reduce the input to 0, doesn't it mean that the remaining noise is being produced by the recorder itself? Is this something common to all recorders and is simply to be expected?
-
Sorry for my lameness.... but can anyone verify what the "unity gain" setting is?
Any advice or quirks that an M10 newbee should know?
Thanks.
-
4
Sorry for my lameness.... but can anyone verify what the "unity gain" setting is?
Any advice or quirks that an M10 newbee should know?
Thanks.
-
Sorry for my lameness.... but can anyone verify what the "unity gain" setting is?
Any advice or quirks that an M10 newbee should know?
Thanks.
jmbell says 4, I've read 5 just as often. I've even seen 6 a couple of times. With most folks saying 4-5, I've been running at 4.5 with good results. It's in there somewhere :)
-
Just my experience running the Sony D50 and M10. The D50 is 6 and can handle a hotter signal, but the M10 needs to be dialed back some and I usually keep it at 4. Usually people say between 4-5 like bryonsos suggested.
Sorry for my lameness.... but can anyone verify what the "unity gain" setting is?
Any advice or quirks that an M10 newbee should know?
Thanks.
jmbell says 4, I've read 5 just as often. I've even seen 6 a couple of times. With most folks saying 4-5, I've been running at 4.5 with good results. It's in there somewhere :)
-
i have seen 3 much more then 5
i did my own test withh white noise and it came back as 4 every time
(white noise settings feed via line in at -10, -5, and 0db)
changing to 3, 2, 1 or 5, 6, 7 and so one changed the db by 2-3db each number
so for example going from 4-6 would add 5-6db of gain
-
See http://kenrockwell.com/audio/sony/pcm-m10.htm for some measurements.
-
I know GuySonic did measurements on this back in the day and I think the number that was agreed to is somewhere around 4.5 (which is where I've run from day one). I've had ZERO issues running there. I've also run at 4 and 5 on occasion but 4.5 was a good starting point.
-
Time to repeat the old mantra:
"Unity" is merely a guide and the concept ignores the internal design and implementation of the recorder.
Use the setting and combination of gain/attenuation that *sounds best* with your specific gear.
As others have said, 4 is in the ballpark.
Does it sound better at 3, with a bit more gain on your front-end? Maybe. Does it sound better at 6, with less gain on the front-end? Quite possibly - especially if the source material is very quiet.
-
See http://kenrockwell.com/audio/sony/pcm-m10.htm for some measurements.
He lists the mics as cards, but they are omnis.
And...am I misreading this? Is he saying unity gain (0 dB attenuation) is at 10?
-
See http://kenrockwell.com/audio/sony/pcm-m10.htm for some measurements.
He lists the mics as cards, but they are omnis.
And...am I misreading this? Is he saying unity gain (0 dB attenuation) is at 10?
Welcome to the World of Ken Rockwell. His camera reviews aren't much better.
-
And...am I misreading this? Is he saying unity gain (0 dB attenuation) is at 10?
I think he is using the 10 setting as his baseline; the other numbers are referenced to that. He could have set the (arbitrary) reference point to any gain setting and that setting would then have had a relative attenuation (and relative gain) of 0 dB...
Another inaccuracy in his review is that he says you can get "Unlimited Eternal recording by letting the internal memory cover you during card swaps". The manual, though, specifically says that you shouldn't remove or insert a memory card while recording or playing back files.
-
Been having fun making outdoor recordings with the M10. I set it up at night. I run a Sony single mid-side mic (ECM-MS908C ?) with a long cable in to the house where the M10 sits. I listen back to the pull, at work. Get all kinds of great night time symphonies....crickets, toads, cows, fox, owls, jets, trains, cars, firweworks. Just goofin around with it. Anyone else try it?
-
Been having fun making outdoor recordings with the M10. I set it up at night. I run a Sony single mid-side mic (ECM-MS908C ?) with a long cable in to the house where the M10 sits. I listen back to the pull, at work. Get all kinds of great night time symphonies....crickets, toads, cows, fox, owls, jets, trains, cars, firweworks. Just goofin around with it. Anyone else try it?
Cool idea. I need to try that.
Wonder if my tree frogs are open taping or I'll need to stealth.
My M10 has been a great recorder to start with. Very simple and seems relatively forgiving. Never owned one or done any serious recording on my own other than when I was a kid and tried to record a Bowie concert off HBO by holding a tape recorder up to the speaker. I wish I had kept at it then but better late than never.
-
Been having fun making outdoor recordings with the M10. I set it up at night. I run a Sony single mid-side mic (ECM-MS908C ?) with a long cable in to the house where the M10 sits. I listen back to the pull, at work. Get all kinds of great night time symphonies....crickets, toads, cows, fox, owls, jets, trains, cars, firweworks. Just goofin around with it. Anyone else try it?
Cool idea. I need to try that.
Wonder if my tree frogs are open taping or I'll need to stealth.
My M10 has been a great recorder to start with. Very simple and seems relatively forgiving. Never owned one or done any serious recording on my own other than when I was a kid and tried to record a Bowie concert off HBO by holding a tape recorder up to the speaker. I wish I had kept at it then but better late than never.
Better stealth it, Warner Brothers has it in this guy's rider to stop singing for crowds of more than one.
(http://www.thebuzzmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/wb_signing_frog.gif)
This guy used to allow open taping but his wife made him stop!
(http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2007/08/16/va1237262195811/KermitMississippi-Development-Authority-5613248.jpg)
-
Classic DigiGal!!! :D
-
Is it just me, or does "sensitivity (att)" make no sense at all? High sensitivity would seem to mean low attenuation, so you'd want to label that switch as one or the other, attenuation being what it actually is but labeled backwards. Also, this is labeled as mic sensitivity so presumably that doesn't affec the line in? Or is this why my Reggae On The Rocks recording came out overloaded?
-
Greetings. First post here. I've been lurking for a few weeks out of curiosity about the current state of the art, and it bit me - I started salivating over the idea of owning a Sony M10. The absurd thing is that I rarely go to concerts anymore! This will probably motivate me to get back in the game. I think I would receive at least honorable mention in the category of "Waited Ridiculously Long To Upgrade."
So the M10 arrived yesterday and it's gorgeous. I've been doing some tests with the home stereo and I'm excited about its potential. I'll be testing it out at an amplified acoustic show in a coffee shop environment next week. I've read all six parts of this thread. The information is impressive but my brain has gone numb. Here's what I'm planning:
Internal Mics (will buy external later this year)
24/48
Manual Mode
Levels close to -12 (maybe creep towards -6?)
LCF Off
Limiter On (don't plan on getting anywhere near it)
Mic Sensitivity...Low?
I seem to remember a post that recommended against high sensitivity in any environment but I can't bring myself to search for it again. My home tests sound good either way, as long as I adjust the record level of course. Is there any reason to avoid high sens when using internals or does it all depend on the volume in the room. It might be loud for an acoustic show, but it won't be overpowering.
Thanks!
Lost Brook
-
If you don't plan on getting near the limit, you might as well not use it. The problem is that if you use the limiter you won't be able to tell when it kicks in. I've heard too many recordings that sound like crap because of limiters.
One great feature of the M10 I didn't notice for a few shows was the dB level in the top right corner- it shows the recent peak level in dB.
Using the internal mics, at least take advantage of the 1/4-20 threaded mounting hole on the bottom. Get a stand or at least a clamp to fix this in one place, over the crowd. BH Photo has mounting solutions.
-
Here's what I'm planning:
Internal Mics (will buy external later this year)
24/48
Manual Mode
Levels close to -12 (maybe creep towards -6?)
LCF Off
Limiter On (don't plan on getting anywhere near it)
Mic Sensitivity...Low?
I agree with all of these choices. There are varying options about the limiter, but I am one who leaves it on and sets levels so that it will never (hopefully) kick in. If it does kick in due to a big spike in the volume, I think it the limiter will sound better than clipping.
-
.
-
If you don't plan on getting near the limit, you might as well not use it. The problem is that if you use the limiter you won't be able to tell when it kicks in. I've heard too many recordings that sound like crap because of limiters.
You do have a way to know when the limiter kicks in, the red lights illuminate. As a safety backup it's better than brickwalling. Hit the limiter a few times in a show last week. I listened to the section several times, and it's good.
Now I wouldn't slam into it as if it was tape, but since it doesn't change the signal unless it's going to brickwall... why not leave it on?
-
Thanks for the responses. I've since been to two different venues and recorded four bands. Here are some random observations:
First night - small theater, stealth table-top recording.
The opening band was loud and "boomy." Three songs in I decided to turn on the LCF. Between acts I checked out the results with my headphones and the LCF clearly helped. The limiter was on as a safety net and sure enough I blew the levels in the first thirty seconds. My home test settings weren't even close to what I needed in the theater. I used a recording level between 2 and 3 to keep the peaks between -12 and -6. I turned all lights on the unit off (backlight and LEDs.) Monitored everything with a small squeeze flashlight, the bulb covered with tape for dimming. Main act was less "boomy" but I ran with LCF on anyway and am pleased with the results. Had no issues with the limiter.
Second night - large coffee shop, stealth table-top again. This time I was sitting sideways and couldn't block the view from behind the recorder with my body. I covered it discreetly (not the mics of course) but still felt exposed every time I leaned over to check the levels. Right before the show,I saw the comment about leaving the limiter off so I decided to try it. LCF was off as were all running lights. First act was solo acoustic and not too loud but I still wasn't confident about the levels, especially with the limiter off. With my poor eyesight, I starting wishing I had left the LEDS on. For the main act, I turned on the LCF based on the sound check I had heard. I also turned the LEDs on and immediately the guy across from me asked if I was taping. The green lights were on more than I wanted but there were plenty of quiet moments during the show so I didn't know what to do. Red never illuminated. I was never comfortable with my settings but hesitated to make too many noisy adjustments. Can't wait for the day I'm wearing the mics and can discreetly adjust the M10 in my lap. Might also need bifocals!
It's been a real learning experience for this old taper. Now I know some of the obstacles and will make some adjustments. Still analyzing all the results.
-
This is just my 2 cents, but I always leave the limiter turned on (regardless of recorder, I have an Olympus LS-10 and a Sony PCM-10) - I try to set the levels so you're peaking at -6 dB or lower (record @ 24 bit), but not always reasonable to do in a not so open situation. I figure it's a safety net and that the alternative (overloading / clipping) would be worse. Maybe this is not the right approach, but seems to me if you aim to not ever have to rely on the limiter, that it serves as a safety net if you don't get things set right and the input is a little hotter than you expect. Kind of like insurance.
My view - don't rely on it, but have it active in case things are not as you expect and you can't adjust like you'd like to.
-
IMHO limiter or not your recording is toast if it gets that high. Essentially, the peaks are going to start to be attenuated at a lower level than if you leave it off. If it only kicks in when you hit 0, then it would only do the same thing as clipping. I'd be curious to see at what level the limiter starts working. I don't know what the algorithm is but I would imagine the attenuation starts at some level and increases to infinity before the level hits 0. Quite a few of my recordings go right up the the ceiling, and even clip the tiniest bit, and these would sound like crap if I had a limiter on. The -6dB is the insurance, not the limiter. If something goes up another 6dB you want that to sound good as well.
-
I'm leaning towards limiter off and being more careful with my levels.
What are the schools of thought on the LCF?
Does anyone set Mic Sens to High?
Thanks!
-
I'd be curious to see at what level the limiter starts working.
Same here. I could not find stuff about that in the manual except that up to 12 dB of 'over' can be compensated for.
But where does it cut in? At what slope?
-
During tonight's gig there was no left signal , so I was only able to record the show just on the the right channel.
Now back home , everything works perfect ..both left and right . Whatever I do , move the mic cable etc. . It works flawless.
And yes, I pushed the plug into the mic in the way it should be .
Does anyone here have had problems using the "mic in".
I am asking since I really want to know what happened.
-
I am asking since I really want to know what happened.
Is your cabling OK?
Set up your deck and mics in record/pause mode, use the headphone output, and wiggle the cabling, plugs etc to find if there are any loose contacts while listening on the phones.
-
some limiters can work ok
but you can get "breathing " type of sound
I'd stay away from it run levels low and boost in post
especially in 24 bit it's not a big deal.
you'll get a more natural sound w/o a limiter
-
some limiters can work ok
but you can get "breathing " type of sound
I'd stay away from it run levels low and boost in post
especially in 24 bit it's not a big deal.
you'll get a more natural sound w/o a limiter
-
hi all
can anyone tell me where is the best place and price to buy a new sony pcm-m10 (any experiences where you bought it new)
i have found it for $249 free shipping at sweetwater with free 2 year warrenty but it does not say what comes in the box. it looks like the ac power cord is not included. i have never bought from amazon. i am old schoool so buying fom the net is still pretty new. i used to tape in the 80s (some late 70s) and my last show was in 2007 with a sony mini disc (steve miller). i would like to stealth tape again. done alot of research on external mics (prefer cards i think). want stay in $200-$250 (sound professionals, core sound and church audio ect ect) including battery box or preamp. tapeing acoustic in coffee house to small clubs (local) and theatres. to outdoor venues depending on my health. also taping voice only. any info. and/or insight would be great. thanks in advance.
happy jack ;D
-
I don't think it matters too much who you buy from. The Sony product comes with a power cable- which I have not yet used as even rechargeables (NiMH) last forever in it (there's a setting for the battery meter to read out time remaining on NiMH). $250 is a great price for this great piece of gear, I don't think you are going to budge too much from that. There's no point in buying one used when you can get a new one for that $$. But it's a great recorder and I think you are making the right choice. You will have to buy a micro SD card with a reasonable amount of space on it-16G will go all day at a festival running 48/24 (I accidentally ordered a standard SD). Got mine from BH Photo.
-
most folks buy gear from b&h at bhphotovideo.com
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/638090-REG/Sony_PCM_M10_BLACK_PCM_M10_Portable_Audio_Recorder.html
$250 there
-
2nd on B+H. I'll usually order from them unless it's a Jewish holiday and I need something right away.
Their prices are usually very competitive, shipping is fast, and their store in NYC is EASILY the most fun place I've ever shopped.
When I win the Lotto, I'm buying a first class ticket to JFK and taking a limo directly to B+H. :P
-
B&h is great but you can get it or 250 anywhere so if you live in ny and ont want o pay tax try sweet water or someone else with a good rep
Example
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-PCM-M10-R-Linear-PCM-Recorder-Glossy-Red-PCMM10-R-/390436944541?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Multi_Track_Recorders&hash=item5ae7dafa9d
250, free shipping, rep company
Musiciandsfriend has some too, so for most people you can find no tax and free shipping
Edits here is one with best offer
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-PCM-M10-B-Remote-PCMM10-PC-M10-Black-Portable-Flash-Recorder-FREE-2-DAY-NEW-/230850094735?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Multi_Track_Recorders&hash=item35bfbce68f
A few weeks ago he sold one for 230, others didn't show the price
-
I got mine from SW. Not sure what I paid but that was over a year ago and I'd assume the price has come down since last May or June. I bought an 8gb card from Best Buy for $30 or so. I've never run out of space even when taping the opening acts or forgetting to erase the previous show off the card.
-
Tried the Sony M10 with Sonic Studio DSM series mics. I had bought the Sonic studio mics in 198? and have not used them in a couple of years. After hearing you can power the Sonic Studio DSM series mics with the sony from guy sonic. Don't think anyone but guy had commented on the sound and if it worked. So I gave it a whirl.
I did some tests turing on my stereo and running these sets of combination's to see if there was a difference in recorders and how well would the sony sonic studio combination work. I recorded in 24/96 and ran it back on a 24/96 playback system and looked at the results in wavelab.
1) edirolHR09 -> Sound device mixper-D >DPA4060
2) Sony M10 -> Sound device mixper-D >DPA4060
3) Sony M10 -> Sonic Studio DSM series mics (no preamp)
1) In set up one, edirol had more mids and a more natural sound compared to the sony m10. The edirol seemed warmer then the sonym10. There was a difference.
2) In set up two, sony m10 was more natural sounding. Better representative of sound for the entire spectrum from 20 to 20,000. Seemed more detailed thou just slightly.
3) In set up three, all you need is the mics and sony. Very very small rig. Easy to conceal. I have always thought the Sonic Studio DSM series mics sound very good. Always wanted to replace my sony D6 with a recorder that could power it. Now the sony M10 can. This combination sounded better then the other 2 which sort of blew me away. Th Sonic Studio DSM series mics are very natural sounding and really have a good frequency response all the way from 20 to 20000. There seemed to be more black in the back ground which was very surprising to me. Always thought the SS mics had a very natural sounding bass. Not too much but just enough. Very good sound stage. I really like these mics...
So I am not making any conclusions just stating what I observed. Pretty amazing the results. Bit buckets are not the same and Sonic studio mics in this config is a very good sounding option. In the future I will run 2 sets of recorders and see what the difference is in a live setting.
-
Here's an interesting issue.
Recently acquired an Ugly Battery Box to use with my B3's and M10. I've noticed that when I connect the battery box to the line input jack that it seems "loose" -- the best way to describe it is that the right-angled connector seems to "slip out" easily. I attempted using some other 1/8" connectors I had laying around and experienced similar issues (some of the other cables seemed a touch more snug but could come out pretty easily). I tried the same 1/8" connectors to the mic-input (with the deck off of course) and that connector seemed to be a lot more snug (i.e., the cable stayed put).
Is there an easy fix for this problem? My M10 is long out of warranty and this kinda p*sses me off because I'm afraid of moving the wrong way or the connection being lost during an important show. :(
-
No Memory Card Error Message--
Here's a bug with that Micro SD Card. Unless perfectly inserted, that Micro SD Card doesn't seat right and one will get an error message. I have dual M-10s, and had no problem, except for my second one, when trying to insert and enable cross-memory recording. Getting it perfectly inserted took about 30 minutes. It has a tendancy to want to go in at an angle, so pushing the card in from the entire back side surface, with a fingernail or pencil eraser seems to work.
If you look close under a good light, you'll want to look for one corner higher than the other. It will still click in, but it isn't seated right. Keep trying.
-
I've gotten very good at removing/inserting the sd card but its def a PITA
-
Adrian
I had an Edirol that had that problem, and for the past 5 years, I tape the snot out of the recorder for that right angle connector, including the M-10. I just don't want any issues. I also tape down the volume and every side and back swith on the unit. Oh, and I tape a good portion of the screen and the LED lights as well.
-
I had an Edirol that had that problem, and for the past 5 years, I tape the snot out of the recorder for that right angle connector, including the M-10. I just don't want any issues. I also tape down the volume and every side and back swith on the unit. Oh, and I tape a good portion of the screen and the LED lights as well.
Thanks for the feedback. I know taping it down tight is always an option but I'd like to "avoid" that if I can (especially when I sometimes have to bring pieces in separately before I record). :)
I might just open it up and check the connector to see how it's attached to the board and how easy/hard it'll be to replace the jack itself. I have some limited knowledge in repairing such things; if I can't, I'll see if I can get somebody in my tech shop at work to replace the jack for me.
-
I had an Edirol that had that problem, and for the past 5 years, I tape the snot out of the recorder for that right angle connector, including the M-10. I just don't want any issues. I also tape down the volume and every side and back swith on the unit. Oh, and I tape a good portion of the screen and the LED lights as well.
Thanks for the feedback. I know taping it down tight is always an option but I'd like to "avoid" that if I can (especially when I sometimes have to bring pieces in separately before I record). :)
I might just open it up and check the connector to see how it's attached to the board and how easy/hard it'll be to replace the jack itself. I have some limited knowledge in repairing such things; if I can't, I'll see if I can get somebody in my tech shop at work to replace the jack for me.
Question
THe cable going from my 9200 preamp to my sony m-10. should that be a straight plug on both ends or a straight plug to the preamp and a right angle to the recorder. Which would be the better option. thanks in advance
-
^^^ I think it depends on the direction in which you anticipate the cable might get pulled. If that's along the long axis of the recorder, I would go with a straight plug. Perpendicular to that, the right angle. In other words, try to minimize the extent to which you are turning the plug into a lever...
-
I super glued my buttons on the back of my m10s ;D 8)
-
I super glued my buttons on the back of my m10s ;D 8)
That is one way to avoid tape residue.
(http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/92a/dc2/eec/resized/the-most-interesting-man-in-the-world-meme-generator-i-don-t-always-use-gaffer-tape-to-secure-my-rig-but-when-i-don-t-i-use-super-glue-9dc3f2.jpg)
-
Hahahahaha nice :)
Yea I had tape over them but it left residue!
-
here is a dumb question that i should proboably already know.
when i set up a mixing board to a peavey amp (for sound systems using 6 mics or more) the cables are shielded from the mixer to the amp. Is the the 2 ft.cable going from my sony pcm-m10 to my 9200 preamp to be shielded too or am i just over thinking and i am not driving that much out in these smaller recording gear. thanks in advance
rig ca14 cards/omnis > 9200 preamp > sony pcm-m10
also can someone direct me or comment why i need cards and omnis. it seems most people use cards. is it determined on what you record and/or where you record?
Again Thanks and any feedback would be great
-
The PCM-M10 can use 64GB SanDisk microSDXC cards, after they've been reformatted to FAT32! ;D
See my post at the Head-Fi thread for the PCM-M10: http://www.head-fi.org/t/456327/sony-pcm-m10-as-portable-player/120#post_8727898
Mike
-
also can someone direct me or comment why i need cards and omnis. it seems most people use cards. is it determined on what you record and/or where you record?
This is widely discussed elsewhere--you might just search with terms like cards omnis. Here's my 2 cents.
It depends on your situation. If you want to focus on a sound in front of you and shut out sound behind you--as many people do when recording concerts with typically chatty audiences--then you'd probably favor cards pointed at the sound source, which is likely to be the PA system rather than the stage you are looking at.
If you want to get a more natural, three-dimensional sound, more like what your ears portray (although as aaronji has convinced me, ears are not exactly like omni mics), use omnis. Me, I prefer omnis--and keeping my distance from chatterboxes in the crowd.
-
also can someone direct me or comment why i need cards and omnis. it seems most people use cards. is it determined on what you record and/or where you record?
This is widely discussed elsewhere--you might just search with terms like cards omnis. Here's my 2 cents.
It depends on your situation. If you want to focus on a sound in front of you and shut out sound behind you--as many people do when recording concerts with typically chatty audiences--then you'd probably favor cards pointed at the sound source, which is likely to be the PA system rather than the stage you are looking at.
If you want to get a more natural, three-dimensional sound, more like what your ears portray (although as aaronji has convinced me, ears are not exactly like omni mics), use omnis. Me, I prefer omnis--and keeping my distance from chatterboxes in the crowd.
Exactly. Cards are good at deflecting a chatty crowd, however, the sound to my hears - IMHO - is anything but natural and this is why I usually roll with omnis in smaller clubs up close to the stacks (i.e., "stack taping"). The only time I run cards is when I'm in a larger arena where I'm further away from the sound source. Considering I rarely go to arena shows, the omnis are my go to mics as well.
-
Mike Davis,
This is great news about reformatting to use the 64gb cards.
Thanks so much,
Stan
-
Lately I started to use the mic-in more often. Does anybody know where the input limit of the mic-in is?
When I go line in and set it above 8 I somehow have the feeling the noisefloor increases (when I go at about 6-7 and up the volume in post the noisefloor isn't as high).
-
Lately I started to use the mic-in more often. Does anybody know where the input limit of the mic-in is?
When I go line in and set it above 8 I somehow have the feeling the noisefloor increases (when I go at about 6-7 and up the volume in post the noisefloor isn't as high).
When you go "line in" what are you using? Battery box? Preamp? What kind of mics do you have? It sounds like something in your chain of "mic to recorder" may not be right. Could be as simple as a dying battery.
-
Lately I started to use the mic-in more often. Does anybody know where the input limit of the mic-in is?
When I go line in and set it above 8 I somehow have the feeling the noisefloor increases (when I go at about 6-7 and up the volume in post the noisefloor isn't as high).
When you go "line in" what are you using? Battery box? Preamp? What kind of mics do you have? It sounds like something in your chain of "mic to recorder" may not be right. Could be as simple as a dying battery.
My rig is:
DPA 4061 > MM-MBM > SONY PCM-M10
The batteries are pretty new and still have enough power.
-
There is a button on the front of the UA5 that is Stereo/Mono. My guess is that could have been the issue? I wouldn't want folks to think this was a M10 issue.
-
There is a button on the front of the UA5 that is Stereo/Mono. My guess is that could have been the issue? I wouldn't want folks to think this was a M10 issue.
That's doesn't effect output, just input
-
If the input is only seen as mono by the UA5, how can the output be anything but a mono recording (albeit 2 channel)? Ben described it as a mono stereo recording which I interpreted to mean the 2 channels were the same mono output.
-
The m10 doesn't record in MONO so it must have been an input issue. I think you're right that it would default to internal mics if the plug wasn't all the way connected.
Thank you willndmb!!
-
The m10 doesn't record in stereo so it must have been an input issue. I think you're right that it would default to internal mics if the plug wasn't all the way connected.
Yes, thats verified correct ;)
-
If the input is only seen as mono by the UA5, how can the output be anything but a mono recording (albeit 2 channel)? Ben described it as a mono stereo recording which I interpreted to mean the 2 channels were the same mono output.
he said the recording was mono but the ua5 when tested was passing stereo signal, so i am assuming he didn't press the button "on" to make the recording then again "off" for the test
that would be a lot of accidental pressing imo
The m10 doesn't record in stereo so it must have been an input issue. I think you're right that it would default to internal mics if the plug wasn't all the way connected.
since when does the m10 not record in stereo??
mine does, just tested it to see
what i think happened was the input plug wasn't in all the way as suspected by others BUT it didn't goto the internal mics, it only was picking up the 1 channel because the plug was only in far enough for one channel to make a connection
-
The m10 doesn't record in stereo so it must have been an input issue. I think you're right that it would default to internal mics if the plug wasn't all the way connected.
since when does the m10 not record in stereo??
mine does, just tested it to see
that was a big goof on my part, thanks!
-
I've been thinking about getting a PCM-M10.
My main use would be with a lapel microphone (probably the AT atr3350) and not the built in ones.
I researched a lot (in the beggining I was thinkin about the H4n haha), but there were 2 questions I couldn't answer:
- Will the pre amps on the PCM m10 work on the atr 3350 ( with 3.5 mm jack) or they only work on the built in microphones?
- Will the recording improve if I get the PCM m10 or, for example, a dr-07 mkii? I mean, since the microphone isn't that good, wouldn't the recorder make little difference in the quality? Os would it be smarter to buy better mics and a not so good recorder?
That's actually 3 questions haha.
Thanks in advance.
-
I've been thinking about getting a PCM-M10.
My main use would be with a lapel microphone (probably the AT atr3350) and not the built in ones.
I researched a lot (in the beggining I was thinkin about the H4n haha), but there were 2 questions I couldn't answer:
- Will the pre amps on the PCM m10 work on the atr 3350 ( with 3.5 mm jack) or they only work on the built in microphones?
- Will the recording improve if I get the PCM m10 or, for example, a dr-07 mkii? I mean, since the microphone isn't that good, wouldn't the recorder make little difference in the quality? Os would it be smarter to buy better mics and a not so good recorder?
That's actually 3 questions haha.
Thanks in advance.
yes the pre comes into play using external mic
i personally think the m10 sounds best of the handhelds, but that is personal pref
mics are considered the most important part of the chain but really it depends on how much of an upgrade vs cost to see if it is worth it, imo anyway
-
i would DEF go w the m10. and buy some church audio ca14s{cards and omnis} and a battery box/preamp and sit back and listen to killer recordings for right around $500 total for everything. there are ca14 cards and a church audio 9200 preamp for $250. add the sony m10 for $250 and there you go, killer rig for around $500 little ones. trust me you will be happy going down that route ;)
-
Thanks a lot willndmb and F.O.Bean.
I will buy the pcm m10, do some research and later upgrade the mics.
Never heard of church audio, I'll probably go to the mic section of this forum to learn a little more.
Again, thanks.
-
Thanks a lot willndmb and F.O.Bean.
I will buy the pcm m10, do some research and later upgrade the mics.
Never heard of church audio, I'll probably go to the mic section of this forum to learn a little more.
Again, thanks.
Yes, also, check the retail section. Church Audio is having a November sale so now is the time to buy ;) ;D
-
To be clear, the pre wouldn't come into play if you had an external box such as the one bean suggest
(set the m10 on 4)
-
So I tragically discovered the loose connector problem with the M-10 tonight, recording Neil Young.
Seems the plug from CA battery box was not fully in and the internal mics* kicked in. Major letdown as it was a killer show and I was in a good spot and generally can't stand stealth. Is there a way to disable internals? I didn't know anything was wrong because I could see the levels were fine. The recorder was in a jacket pocket. Def learned a lesson about taping down the cable. The M-10 connection is a design flaw.
* Read here that if external mic cable not fully engaged, then internal is default. And the recording has that sound. But is it possible that CA-14 mics were just not delivering the full dynamic range? They were plugged in somewhat, like past the first band on the connector. The recording of Patti Smith, who played before Neil, was 100 times better.
-
^^^ bummer, sorry that sucks!
Why would you not use the line in...
I run my m-10 from my little box line in and set to source of line in and have never had an issue...
-
My M10 is great and has worked flawlessly for the last two years. But ever since I purchased it, I've had this feeling like "it's not if but when" one of the connectors will go out. Kinda like the old JB3 1/8" optical input issue many of us eventually succumbed t0.
Forgive me for not following the thread close enough, but has anyone successfully repaired a connector on their M10?
-
Good question. I rarely record >:D and was reading the board earlier in the day and decided to try mic in based on reported user experiences. Went line in for Springsteen in September and found levels lacking (was using the CA battery box). But should have known that Neil would be loud.
Bottom line lesson remains: Make sure you secure, with tape if necessary, any connection to the M-10.
-
Agree about the connection...I have now gotten pretty good at telling when it's not fully inserted (is that what she said? ;D). When it's not all the way in, you can press it inward some more and you should feel a positive click as it locks in fully. Close your eyes as you insert and you can hopefully feel what I'm talking about.
All that said, it would be really nice if there was a slick way to 'set it and forget it'. There is another thread about using an old-school airplane jack (with 2 mono plugs) to keep the connector more stable here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=158776.0
John
-
I've been thinking about getting a PCM-M10.
My main use would be with a lapel microphone (probably the AT atr3350) and not the built in ones.
I researched a lot (in the beggining I was thinkin about the H4n haha), but there were 2 questions I couldn't answer:
- Will the pre amps on the PCM m10 work on the atr 3350 ( with 3.5 mm jack) or they only work on the built in microphones?
- Will the recording improve if I get the PCM m10 or, for example, a dr-07 mkii? I mean, since the microphone isn't that good, wouldn't the recorder make little difference in the quality? Os would it be smarter to buy better mics and a not so good recorder?
That's actually 3 questions haha.
Thanks in advance.
Your microphones will have the biggest effect on the final product. Your pre-amp/battery box will be next in the chain that will effect the sound. Your deck has a slight influence in the final sound in the analog>digital conversion stage. Think of the whole chain as a funnel, the large part of the funnel being the microphones, then it gets narrower as it funnels through the pre-amp, then into the deck finally.
-
Have never had a issue with a connection(knocks on wood) in 3 years now with the M10, and 95% of that is "less than open" , just a fantastic unit, my favorite function is the locking function but still adjust the levels, also have never had a issue with the level knob either.
-
I'm not sure if there is an input jack issue as such or if there just a problem with making sure that the jack is fully inserted.
I had this happen to me once, early on, with a cheap lead. Clocked the odd levels during the support so checked everything over in the gents and found the minijack lead not quite fully inserted. No problems since, even with that same lead.
I think if you take care to plug in properly, this problem should effectively resolve itself. After all, it's a 3.5mm connection, it's hardly secure under the best circumstances and I wonder if the slightly stiffer action that seems to be causing these problems might actually work in its favour if the lead is subjected to the occasional tug during use.
-
My m10s have been nothing but SOLID concerning the input jacks. But then again, I use HQ jacks
-
Ahhh.... I had two recordings come out like crap- my comments had been that it sounded like the mics were in my pocket. I now get that the mics were- IN MY POCKET (or in my bag on the floor)- and this was a mini-plug seating issue. Well, that beats the alternative that my MK41's are crazy temperamental.
-
My m10s have been nothing but SOLID concerning the input jacks. But then again, I use HQ jacks
You had your input jacks upgraded? :P ;)
-
My m10s have been nothing but SOLID concerning the input jacks. But then again, I use HQ jacks
You had your input jacks upgraded? :P ;)
No silly, the mini jacks are either Neutrik or Rean
-
I think he's referring to the fact that jacks are on the M10, and we don't know what Sony is using.
You're referring to using quality 1/8" plugs on your cables, from Rean and Neutrik.
-
BTW, I've been getting out and using the M10 a bit more lately.
For moe. this past weekend, I did a comp of:
Night 1) A comparison of the M10 A/D to the Sound Devices USBPre 2's A/D: DPA 4022 > Aerco MP2 > SD USBPre 2 and then digital out UB2 (optical) > Sony D50 and UB2 (analog) > M10
Night 2) A comparison of the Aerco MP2 + M10 to a USBPre 2: Again DPA 4022, splitter cables to Aerco MP2 > M10 and other split to USBPre 2 (optical) > Sony D50
The first comp is a direct comp of the M10 line-level input (essentially as A/D + recorder) to the line-level input (A/D) of the USBPre 2.
The second comp really is lumping together the mic preamp of the Aerco + the A/D of the M10, and comparing to the USBPre 2 acting as both mic preamp+A/D.
I haven't listened much to the Night 1 comp, but the Night 2 comp is really pretty close in sound. I can hear the typical transformer sound of the Aerco compared to the non-transformer USBPre 2, but both sound very good.
DPAs > Aerco MP2 > Sony M10 should make for a very compact, high quality recording rig. 8)
-
Sorry to hear about this VWMULE. I'm willing to bet you have a 1/8" Neutrik right angle gold connecter on your battery box, no?
Apparently Neutrik dropped the ball when it comes to specs on their more recent product. I have several 1/8" r/a Neutrik plugs from various Church Audio gear purchased over the years and all of them connected securely to my M10 except for a recent battery box build from this past summer. When I connected the 1/8" plug into my line in (or mic in), I noticed it wasn't "gripping" tightly and it would slide out. I didn't notice this before I used my B3's and Ugly Battery Box for the first time but did notice a "hit" where the connector slipped out at the start of a show. I was able to "fix" it for the second show a few weeks later by taping it to the deck and rubber-banding it so it wouldn't come out. Ultimately, I had the r/a changed to a different one; can't say I'll be using Neutrik again anytime soon.
So, the moral of the story is: don't blame your M10 too quickly (I'd already done that in another post this past summer). :)
-
Yes Adrian, it's not always songs fault
-
So I tragically discovered the loose connector problem with the M-10 tonight, recording Neil Young.
Seems the plug from CA battery box was not fully in and the internal mics* kicked in. Major letdown as it was a killer show and I was in a good spot and generally can't stand stealth. Is there a way to disable internals? I didn't know anything was wrong because I could see the levels were fine. The recorder was in a jacket pocket. Def learned a lesson about taping down the cable. The M-10 connection is a design flaw.
* Read here that if external mic cable not fully engaged, then internal is default. And the recording has that sound. But is it possible that CA-14 mics were just not delivering the full dynamic range? They were plugged in somewhat, like past the first band on the connector. The recording of Patti Smith, who played before Neil, was 100 times better.
Bummer.
Learned my first lesson about properly seating the 1/8" connector my first time out with the M-10 in an open-taping scenario. Learned my second lesson which is to secure the mini-plug with gaffers tape on the M-10 during it's maiden voyage in a 007 situation. A few channel drop-outs and some static from the plug rotating in the jack.
I now have a strict "seat it 'n secure it" regimen I follow religiously. No problems since...
-
Hello everybody. 1st post here, even though ive been following the PCM-M10 thread for some time now. Ive finally got myself this little recording jewel and even though im generally quite satisfied with the purchase, i too have the levels mismatch issue. Specifically, left channel is always 4-5 dB hotter than the right, using the external mics. I wasn't expecting something like that considering the recorder's quality standards and to be perfectly honest i think this is unacceptable for a pro recording unit. Im going to take it back to the store i bought from and ask for a replace, hopefully getting back a calibrated unit as it happened to some other user here. A big thanks to all tapers here for their comments/opinions/tests, very helpful indeed. Peace
-
left channel is always 4-5 dB hotter than the right, using the external mics.
Using internal or external mics? If the internal built-in mics, take it back. If external, you may want to test first to determine whether the mismatch lies with the mics or the recorder.
-
left channel is always 4-5 dB hotter than the right, using the external mics.
Using internal or external mics? If the internal built-in mics, take it back. If external, you may want to test first to determine whether the mismatch lies with the mics or the recorder.
Sorry i misspelled it.. I was talking about the internal mics, I'll take it back tomorrow. I am however tempted to go for the LS-11 instead. The thing is that im planning to use this recorder via line in connected to my SD302 (mainly for dialogue and ambiences), or using the internal mics as a ultraportable recording setup, mostly for nature/ambience recordings on the go. That said, I'm not really thinking about using the unit's mic-in. Hence my doubts between the PCM-M10 and the LS-11. Ive read great things about the sony's low noise circuitry (preamps, mics, line) but the omni configuration doesn't really give great results as far as stereo imaging is concerned. The Olympus' cardiods surely would do better in that aspect but they sound a bit thinner to my ears compared to the sony's internals (even though not many sound tests around) and maybe a little noisier (?). Considering my setup (SD302 via line-in or internal mics use) what would you recommend? Thanks for your time reading this :)
-
I would go with the m10
-
I would go with the m10
Thanx for the advice.
-
After 6 months of heavy use with no problems my M10 has started having problems with the plug in the line in giving me occasional crackles, presumably when the plug is rotated slightly (I use a right angled connector and keep it in my baggy trouser pocket). Never had this issue in 5 years of heavy use with my iRiver and I've got the problem with two different battery boxes. I've resorted to running a back up rig in parallel with the M10 as it's happened a fair few times now in the last month.
So thinking of trying the mic in next week as an experiment to see if I get the same issue. Real shame as I love the recorder apart from this issue, which seems to be occurring for a fair few people based on posts here. I've not taped the jack in to date, but will try that as well and will report back.
-
Sounds like you need to clean the jack and plug.
-
Sounds like you need to clean the jack and plug.
Did cross my mind. Any tips how to do this and where to get the product from ( in the Uk)?
I'll try anything!
-
I think most use the instructions from guysonic's web site...
Following guysonic's advice has cured this type of problem for a lot of tapers:
Clean & recondition noisy mic. jacks with 91 - 99% pure isopropyl alcohol. Repeatedly insert a headphone type plug soaked to the point of dripping (filling the alcohol bottle cap and dipping only the metal part of the mini-plug works well) into the mic. jack until any connection noise disappears. Monitor the progress with a set of headphones while the deck is in a record function. Rotating the microphones plug should not produce audible noise with cleaned and conditioned contacts. Applying a contact conditioner to already cleaned plug and jack metal parts (Stereo retailer & Sonic Studios available Pro-Gold by Caig Labs works great) once to several times a year will help protect contacts from corrosion/wear and from producing noise for much longer between cleanings.
CAUTION ADVISED: AVOID PLACING CONTACT CLEANER ON ANYTHING BUT THE METAL CONNECTOR PARTS; Plastics can be softened, discolored, and even dissolved! This may actually coat the very metal contacts intended for cleaning! Fortunately, deck input jacks are reasonably resistant to alcohol and most ‘plastic safe’ cleaners when used occasionally and with care.
WARNING: Never spray anything into the jacks on a deck. Most Mini-DECK jacks are not the enclosed type anymore, but are open, allowing sprays to go where they can cause mechanical problems with the tape transport mechanisms and coat the tape heads. Use the method described above with the mini-plug OR purchase a special insertable cleaning brush from CAIG or Sonic Studios (a round shaver cleaning brush may also be used with careful attention to the delicate nature of these mini-jacks).
-
^
Many thanks for the above- I'll give it a go and report back!
Just done a bit of googling which suggests isopropyl alcohol isn't easy to get at chemists in the UK, but have have just ordered a small bottle on eBay for £4 inc postage, so hopefully will get it to do the clean before next weekend's two gigs.
-
As i mentioned in my post b4, the pcm-m10 that i bought had the left channel about 4-5dB hotter than the right. I took it back and tried another (the last they had on stock) that, to my surprise, suffered from the same issue, albeit to a lesser degree, about 2-3dB. As much as id love to keep it, it seems to me that Sony's quality control has some pretty serious issues. IMHO selling professional grade recorders with obvious (and varying) channel calibration problems is unacceptable, even if this occurs only with internal mics (didnt try line in performance). I ended up going for the LS-11, hopefully i wont regret it.. Thanx for the advice and for all the time people dedicate here to test and inform.
-
I duuno. I really don't think the M10 is a "pro-grade" recorder. It's pro-sumer at best.
A consistent difference between the two channels is easily rectified in post and is a small price to pay for the deck's other benefits, especially at this low price-point.
Perhaps the LS10 is a move in the right direction for you but I think my M10 would have to do a lot worse than this before I considered changing deck.
-
I would have to agree with yousef, this is not professional and the decibel difference between the two channels are not too much. Have you recorded audio and listened to it? Can you tell the difference by not looking at the levels in playback?
-
The line input on my m10 is matched closer than 0.1 dB.
If the cheap built-in mics do not meet your requirements, buy real mics (with a matching certificate), or fix it in post.
-
I would have to agree with yousef, this is not professional and the decibel difference between the two channels are not too much. Have you recorded audio and listened to it? Can you tell the difference by not looking at the levels in playback?
The difference between L&R was close to 5dB which i consider rather big. Yes, there was an obvious difference in volume when played back (tested with dialog, guitar, xaphoon, melodica). The fact that i can correct it in post isnt by any means a solution (imho) when one cannot monitor the recording properly due to lack of balance. Having to widen the stereo image, equalize distinctly M/S information and balance levels seems a bit too much considering what i want this recorder for. And that is (as mentioned b4) use of line-in (SD302 + selection of mics) and use of int mics for xpress situations. I am not planning to buy PIP mics that would require use of the mic input.
EDIT: Thanx for all the comments and advice, much appreciated.
-
Having to widen the stereo image, equalize distinctly M/S information and balance levels
???
-
... equalize distinctly M/S information ...
You're not recording Mid-Side, are you? It wouldn't be abnormal for the mid and side components to be significantly different levels.
-
I havent made myself clear.. When refering to MS information i wasnt talking about Mid-Side signals in an MS recording scenario (something impossible with the m10's omni pair). i was referring to the spectral difference between information in the center of the stereo image and the sides (something mentioned here as well). Anyway, i felt like i wouldnt miss much going for the LS-11 instead of the M10, considering that for pro use (as a 2 track, line-in fed recorder) the LS-11 has very similar low-noise performance. Hopefully its internals wont prove too noisy..
-
Ok... As with all audio products, there's no review/opinion/comment that can really surpass one's personal experience. Yes, the LS-11 has more prominent stereo image. Yes, it does not suffer from level difference between the two internals. BUT.. After recording with both machines in a very quiet space i have no doubt in mind that the PCM-M10 internals are WAY quieter than the ones on the LS-11. So, as much as skeptical as i may be about the levels imbalance, noise is definitely a bigger issue for me. All in all, here is another PCM-M10 owner, big thanx to everybody here for the guidance and opinions.
-
Ok... As with all audio products, there's no review/opinion/comment that can really surpass one's personal experience. Yes, the LS-11 has more prominent stereo image. Yes, it does not suffer from level difference between the two internals. BUT.. After recording with both machines in a very quiet space i have no doubt in mind that the PCM-M10 internals are WAY quieter than the ones on the LS-11. So, as much as skeptical as i may be about the levels imbalance, noise is definitely a bigger issue for me. All in all, here is another PCM-M10 owner, big thanx to everybody here for the guidance and opinions.
Well, as long as you're leaning back to the M10 -- I don't think there is necessarily anything to worry about regarding spectral information and stereo imaging regarding the M10's internal mics just because they are different in output level.
If they are relatively well matched with their relative output vs frequency and are just different in overall output, you shouldn't need to worry about anything other than matching up their output in post production. Meaning, all you need to do is add 5db to the lower output mic and you should be fine.
If the mics do have different frequency responses (and mics that are matched in level could still be unmatched in frequency response), then you would need to correct them somehow in post to address overall level imbalance and frequency response imbalance.
As a starting point though, I wouldn't worry about spectral differences and would just add the 5db in post to the lower channel. Hopefully this will correct your stereo image.
-
Ok... As with all audio products, there's no review/opinion/comment that can really surpass one's personal experience. Yes, the LS-11 has more prominent stereo image. Yes, it does not suffer from level difference between the two internals. BUT.. After recording with both machines in a very quiet space i have no doubt in mind that the PCM-M10 internals are WAY quieter than the ones on the LS-11. So, as much as skeptical as i may be about the levels imbalance, noise is definitely a bigger issue for me. All in all, here is another PCM-M10 owner, big thanx to everybody here for the guidance and opinions.
Well, as long as you're leaning back to the M10 -- I don't think there is necessarily anything to worry about regarding spectral information and stereo imaging regarding the M10's internal mics just because they are different in output level.
If they are relatively well matched with their relative output vs frequency and are just different in overall output, you shouldn't need to worry about anything other than matching up their output in post production. Meaning, all you need to do is add 5db to the lower output mic and you should be fine.
If the mics do have different frequency responses (and mics that are matched in level could still be unmatched in frequency response), then you would need to correct them somehow in post to address overall level imbalance and frequency response imbalance.
As a starting point though, I wouldn't worry about spectral differences and would just add the 5db in post to the lower channel. Hopefully this will correct your stereo image.
Thanks for the advice, appreciated.
-
Was wondering has any measured the low cut filter or know how steep it is?Was wondering about using it when running DSM mics direct into plug in power.
-
I guess my question above can not be answered,so how can i measure the low cut filter myself on the Sony PCM m10?
-
Search result: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=148448.0
-
OK Thanks for that link,i never have any luck with taperssection search function for some reason.
-
OK Thanks for that link,i never have any luck with taperssection search function for some reason.
If you don't like TS's search, you can use google: site:taperssection.com +"sony pcm-m10" +"low cut filter"
-
I got a second M10 recently; bought my first one in 2011. Recorded 3.5 hours the other day on each unit using AT853 > battery box > M10, and the same type of NiMH batteries in each. The old M10 still had 3 bars on the battery icon by the end, and the new M10 had a flashing battery icon with zero bars.
Both units are set to 'NiMH' battery type in the menus. I also tried recharging the batteries, switching battery pairs between the units, and recording > 3 hrs again. Same result. Any idea why battery life is so poor on this new unit?
-
Is the new unit actually running the battery down or is it just showing as empty on the display?
Either way, I'd be sending it back to the shop - no matter what encoding, PiP, limiter, output etc options you have engaged, I can't see why the batteries should run down *that* much more quickly than usual.
-
Hmm, that's weird as fu@k. I get around 15 hrs running 2 year old 2300mah energizes in BOTH my M10s
-
Any chance the Church UBB battery box could cause the AA batteries in the M10 to deplete more quickly than an SP battery box? I didn't try switching battery boxes.
In any case, I decided to return the unit and try my luck with a different one. FYI ... B&H is selling the M10 for $199 (that price appeared after I added it to my cart).
-
Any chance the Church UBB battery box could cause the AA batteries in the M10 to deplete more quickly than an SP battery box? I didn't try switching battery boxes.
In any case, I decided to return the unit and try my luck with a different one. FYI ... B&H is selling the M10 for $199 (that price appeared after I added it to my cart).
"It depends."
I recently ran AT853/c's > UBB > M10 at the back of a venue (in the VIP section) and had to run the M10 at line input 9 or 10 and was still only seeing peaks of -12dB. I was using five or six year old Eneloops (bad me) but only saw about a 1/2 drain on that recording.
What can drain batteries quickly is having the volume playback level set at 30 and not have anything connected to the M10 -- I tried this once and noticed a 2 hour show took me to 1/3 of strength.
I think sending back the M10 was the smart move on your part.
-
Any chance the Church UBB battery box could cause the AA batteries in the M10 to deplete more quickly than an SP battery box? I didn't try switching battery boxes.
In any case, I decided to return the unit and try my luck with a different one. FYI ... B&H is selling the M10 for $199 (that price appeared after I added it to my cart).
"It depends."
I recently ran AT853/c's > UBB > M10 at the back of a venue (in the VIP section) and had to run the M10 at line input 9 or 10 and was still only seeing peaks of -12dB. I was using five or six year old Eneloops (bad me) but only saw about a 1/2 drain on that recording.
What can drain batteries quickly is having the volume playback level set at 30 and not have anything connected to the M10 -- I tried this once and noticed a 2 hour show took me to 1/3 of strength.
I think sending back the M10 was the smart move on your part.
never thought about the LINE-OUT being maxed out. My M10s are ALWAYS set at LINE-OUT, if that makes a difference. I leave it that way in case someone wants a patch, which happens very rarely anymore :)
-
Hello, all. I just wanted to sign in as the new owner of a red M10 that I bought today at Dale Pro Audio.
First impression: It's smaller than I'd expected, and the shade of red is darker than I'd expected, but both surprises are nice as far as I'm concerned.
As soon as I learn the controls and settings, I plan to use it with a pair of Schoeps mikes with CMBI bodies--the ones with internal batteries and unbalanced outputs.
Some technoid questions:
- Has anyone here measured the input overload voltage for the mike inputs?
- Does anyone here know whether the unit applies dither when it's set for 16-bit recording?
My apologies if those questions have already been asked and answered many times before.
--best regards
-
WOW, for once, Im stumped about M10 questions :P Sorry Im no help on those DSatz :)
-
OK, I've got an answer to my own first question: With "MIC SENS" set to LOW the mike inputs can handle about 1 Volt without overload (measured at 1 kHz). So as long as the rec level control is set to ~1.5-2 or higher, the mike preamps can't be clipped before the recording level reaches 0 dB (full scale). Very nice!
By the way, with just below 1V at the mike inputs, the THD+N is so low (definitely below 0.03%) that I'm gonna have to dig up a better test generator to measure it. Time to fire up the old Hewlett-Packard ...
-
^^^ That squares well with guysonic's measurement. He said 2 dBu for the mic input and 24 dBu for the line input...
As for dithering in 16-bit, I have no idea. Maybe you can find some information about that in the codec spec sheet? I think it is a Cirrus CS42L52.
-
Some technoid questions:
- Has anyone here measured the input overload voltage for the mike inputs?
--best regards
Hi DSatz,
here my rough measurements:
0dB on the meter, numbers are approximate pot settings:
Mic Hi:
10 0.8mV
5 6.1mV
3 34.8mV
Mic Lo:
10 8.9mV
5 55.6mV
3 237mV (!)
Line In:
10 500mV
5 1610mV
These are not the clip levels, but the input level giving a 0dBFS indication.
Hope that helps.
Greetings,
Rainer
-
Hallo Reiner! Actually I was mainly interested in knowing the maximum voltage that the mike inputs can accept without distortion, which (I'm happy to say) turns out to be just slightly above the maximum voltage that my microphones can produce.
But the figures that you listed are also very useful, both to me and undoubtedly to others here as well. So, many thanks!
--best regards
-
I remember reading (sorry cant find the source) that the m10 does dither, however it does not use the SBM circuit like the D50.... i really doubt it would truncate....
-
I've just made some test recordings of very low-level midrange sinusoids via the line input. It looks to me as if either it's dithering for 16-bit, or the input noise dithers the signal well enough.
ETA: I say that because no matter what level I chose for the test tone, I never saw any spurious harmonics. The classic sign of inadequate dithering is harmonic distortion that decreases and eventually vanishes as you inject increasing amounts of random noise around the level of one LSB. (IOW as you're looking at a spectrum analysis of the output from a poorly dithered recorder without any additional injected noise, the level of each harmonic visibly stands above the noise floor to some degree--but as you add very-low-level random noise and increase the level of that noise gradually, you can see the distortion decrease proportionally.)
(And by the way, contrary to the drivel that one still hears from some audiophile pundits, the decrease in distortion as the dither increases and reaches its optimal level is for real--it's an absolute decrease in distortion, not just relative to the noise level. In fact as you bring up the level of the dither, the levels of the distortion components come down distinctly faster than noise is rising. Dither prevents quantization distortion--it doesn't just "cover" or "conceal" it; and anyway, to do the latter would require a noise level some 10 to 20 dB higher, since people can hear signal components that are below the level of random noise.) [end of ETA]
I see no sign of noise-shaping; the noise floor has a very gentle upward slope throughout the audio range.
Spectrum graphs from Sound Forge are attached (the little blip around 15.7 kHz may be due to interference from a nearby video monitor). Please disregard the "-90" in the filenames; that's not accurate with respect to the signal level at the times shown in these pictures. I recorded at various levels from around -60 dBFS down to around -90 to see whether the typical artifacts of truncated samples would be present at any level, and I didn't find any.
The surprise for me was the small difference between the 16-bit and 24-bit noise floor--maybe 2 or 3 dB, but that's all. I don't get a clear impression that it's worthwhile to record 24-bit with this recorder, even though it supports the format. [ETA: I'm looking in to this some more. In these tests, the record level control on the M10 was set lower than it would probably ever be set in any actual recording situation; I want to do the tests over with a more attenuated signal and a more realistic setting of the record level control.]
--best regards
-
I finally broke down and bought a Sony PCM-M10 to replace my Edirol R-09HR. I got it today from B&H and all looks good, except I must say I'm disappointed that the hold switch doesn't stop you from changing the input level with the dial on the right side. I'm a low profile taper and this was the one feature on the R-09HR I always used since the recorder sits in my pocket while recording. You could set your levels in the beginning and not look at it until after the show. Without it, I feel like it will be very easy to bump into the dial and change the levels when not intended.
I suppose it's hardly worth complaining about. After all I don't think the dinosaur era Sony D5 even had a hold switch on it, right? ;D
-
I finally broke down and bought a Sony PCM-M10 to replace my Edirol R-09HR. I got it today from B&H and all looks good, except I must say I'm disappointed that the hold switch doesn't stop you from changing the input level with the dial on the right side. I'm a low profile taper and this was the one feature on the R-09HR I always used since the recorder sits in my pocket while recording. You could set your levels in the beginning and not look at it until after the show. Without it, I feel like it will be very easy to bump into the dial and change the levels when not intended.
I suppose it's hardly worth complaining about. After all I don't think the dinosaur era Sony D5 even had a hold switch on it, right? ;D
Actually as a mainly "less than open taper" myself that is the one thing I love about the M10, not once have I ever had a problem with the input level(nearly a 100 shows now), it would be very hard for that dial to turn, trust me, its very handy to be able to adjust the level. I wouldn't give it a second thought.
-
^ I second that. The gain knob takes a little *umph* to move so it's unlikely that levels would be adjusted. If it becomes a worry, just toss a little gaffer tape on the knob. Best of luck with your m10 travels!
-
Alright, thanks guys. Guess I'll just have to be careful with it. :)
I couldn't believe the sensitivity of the internal mics in high sensitivity mode. I was just whispering with the M10 several feet away wearing headphones and the mics were clearly picking up what I was saying. :o
-
Same here, my m10 gain knob isn't exactly easy to move!
-
I finally broke down and bought a Sony PCM-M10 to replace my Edirol R-09HR. I got it today from B&H and all looks good, except I must say I'm disappointed that the hold switch doesn't stop you from changing the input level with the dial on the right side. I'm a low profile taper and this was the one feature on the R-09HR I always used since the recorder sits in my pocket while recording. You could set your levels in the beginning and not look at it until after the show. Without it, I feel like it will be very easy to bump into the dial and change the levels when not intended.
I suppose it's hardly worth complaining about. After all I don't think the dinosaur era Sony D5 even had a hold switch on it, right? ;D
Actually as a mainly "less than open taper" myself that is the one thing I love about the M10, not once have I ever had a problem with the input level(nearly a 100 shows now), it would be very hard for that dial to turn, trust me, its very handy to be able to adjust the level. I wouldn't give it a second thought.
I consider it a positive feature as well. Love not having to take the recorder off hold to change levels and mine has never turned by accident. If you're really worried about it, though, a small piece of gaffer's tape over the level control works well.
-
N-box>M-10 owner here and relatively infrequent .007 user. Just takes a few outings to get confident with the gear. And just a few more to learn where to record from. Then magic...
-
Now that I've decided to add this little gem to my bag of tricks, I've missed the late January sale of $199 at B&H. Anyone aware of any President day sales I may have overlooked? I've searched out Guitar Center, Sweetwater, B&H, Amazon etc. It looks like they're all back up to the $249 pricing with some even higher. Sweetwater.com is at least throwing in the 2 year warranty with free shipping and no taxes.
Can't believe I've spent two days reading through parts 1 thru 5 only to find a part 6 with 24 more pages. LOL Great information though and it has occupied my time these last couple of days being down with some nasty bug.
I've got my croakie CA-11's and CA-9200 on order so I've still got time to shop around for the best deal on this sweet deck so if any of you see a deal on it please message me. I knew I should have bought it back in January, but that's my luck and fault for being indecisive. haha Anyone know how often B&H puts these on sale? From reading through the threads it seems like fairly often, however, I wasn't able to come to a conclusion on a pattern, eg, quarterly etc. Thanks!
-
Anyone aware of any President day sales I may have overlooked?
This is probably not what you're looking for, but I got mine used from eBay for around $100. Works like a charm, and with solid-state recorders, there's really not much that can go wrong when buying used.
-
This is probably not what you're looking for, but I got mine used from eBay for around $100. Works like a charm, and with solid-state recorders, there's really not much that can go wrong when buying used.
You got a great deal! If I could find one at or near a $100 I'd buy a used one, I'd jump all over it. Most used M10 decks I've seen are usually in the $200 range and I'd just soon spend a little more for new one at that price point.
-
For what it's worth, I'd suggest you get black rather than "red" (actually burgundy). The red is glossy, a fingerprint magnet; the black is matte.
The only advantage to the red is that it looks so harmless it has often been mistaken for a point-and-shoot camera by security. "Just don't use the flash."
The black might look a little more serious. But if mine ever dies, it's getting replaced by the black version.
-
For what it's worth, I'd suggest you get black rather than "red" (actually burgundy). The red is glossy, a fingerprint magnet; the black is matte.
The only advantage to the red is that it looks so harmless it has often been mistaken for a point-and-shoot camera by security. "Just don't use the flash."
The black might look a little more serious. But if mine ever dies, it's getting replaced by the black version.
earmonger, thanks for the insight! I ran out of patience and ordered a black one from Guitar Center last night. I did get 15% off, but GC applies state sales tax, so the $219 sale price ended up at $235. At least I now have one on order and won't miss another opportunity for some low profile recording.
-
For what it's worth, I'd suggest you get black rather than "red" (actually burgundy). The red is glossy, a fingerprint magnet; the black is matte.
The only advantage to the red is that it looks so harmless it has often been mistaken for a point-and-shoot camera by security. "Just don't use the flash."
The black might look a little more serious. But if mine ever dies, it's getting replaced by the black version.
earmonger, thanks for the insight! I ran out of patience and ordered a black one from Guitar Center last night. I did get 15% off, but GC applies state sales tax, so the $219 sale price ended up at $235. At least I now have one on order and won't miss another opportunity for some low profile recording.
Smart move ;)
-
Hi,
I currently record using a Sony HImd recorder and although I have had no issues with it at all, the price of the discs has obviously gone through the roof, so think it's time to change to a new recorder.
The two I have been looking at is the Sony PCM10 and the Roland R05. There is no real difference in price between the two, both seem to have very good reviews, so my question is, should I stick with Sony or is the Roland the way to go? Or are they very similar?
I would not be using the internal mics.
Cheers
-
the m10 is inexpensive, easy to use, and literally runs forever on two batteries.
It also sounds good (though see dsatz's disturbing post above on running 24bit)
-
the m10 is inexpensive, easy to use, and literally runs forever on two batteries.
It also sounds good (though see dsatz's disturbing post above on running 24bit)
It would be very interesting if he was able to comp the R05 and see if it does or does not do a true 24bit as well.
-
I ran out of patience and ordered a black one from Guitar Center last night. I did get 15% off, but GC applies state sales tax, so the $219 sale price ended up at $235. At least I now have one on order and won't miss another opportunity for some low profile recording.
You'll love it, Dean. I got a black one on eBay for $190. It's a solid little deck - much better than the plasticy R-09 I replaced. Put a screen protector on it right when you get it.
BTW, I saw you uploaded the TR3 show on archive - I haven't been able to listen to it yet, though. Can't wait to hear it.
-
You'll love it, Dean. I got a black one on eBay for $190. It's a solid little deck - much better than the plasticy R-09 I replaced. Put a screen protector on it right when you get it.
BTW, I saw you uploaded the TR3 show on archive - I haven't been able to listen to it yet, though. Can't wait to hear it.
The M10 is amazingly small! I can't wait to get the mics and pre here so I can get out and use this thing. This little gem does feel very solid and I still can't get over how small it is. lol
The TR3 show was fun. I think the board feed needs tweaked down some, especially in the beginning. I still have a long way to go with learning post processing. :)
-
"I can't wait to get the mics and pre here so I can get out and use this thing."
Why wait? Do a show with the built-ins. :)
-
I just got a 64GB micro SD card and cannot wait to see this thing work. I love not having to delete stuff right away....
-
I just got a 64GB micro SD card and cannot wait to see this thing work. I love not having to delete stuff right away....
Let us know if the 64GB card works out. I have been under the impression it handles up to 16GB only, if memory serves (which it often doesn't :facepalm:)...
-
32 gig cards will work with the M10
I just got a 64GB micro SD card and cannot wait to see this thing work. I love not having to delete stuff right away....
Let us know if the 64GB card works out. I have been under the impression it handles up to 16GB only, if memory serves (which it often doesn't :facepalm:)...
-
Why wait? Do a show with the built-ins. :)
Great point! ;D
I just got a 64GB micro SD card and cannot wait to see this thing work. I love not having to delete stuff right away....
Let us know if the 64GB card works out. I have been under the impression it handles up to 16GB only, if memory serves (which it often doesn't :facepalm:)...
I was reading this post by Mike Davis over the Card Summary (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147879.15) which he linked a write up about reformatting (http://www.head-fi.org/t/456327/sony-pcm-m10-as-portable-player/120#post_8727898) the 64GB cards on Windows platforms. Looks like a great work around to maximize the card capacity.
-
I just got a 64GB micro SD card and cannot wait to see this thing work. I love not having to delete stuff right away....
Let us know if the 64GB card works out. I have been under the impression it handles up to 16GB only, if memory serves (which it often doesn't :facepalm:)...
There is a thread here somewhere, if not deeper in this one, where the 64GB Sandisk cards worked when formatted a certain way. I will see if I can dig it up.
Linky: http://www.head-fi.org/t/456327/sony-pcm-m10-as-portable-player/120#post_8727898
-
I just got a 64GB micro SD card and cannot wait to see this thing work. I love not having to delete stuff right away....
Let us know if the 64GB card works out. I have been under the impression it handles up to 16GB only, if memory serves (which it often doesn't :facepalm:)...
There is a thread here somewhere, if not deeper in this one, where the 64GB Sandisk cards worked when formatted a certain way. I will see if I can dig it up.
Linky: http://www.head-fi.org/t/456327/sony-pcm-m10-as-portable-player/120#post_8727898
Good to know. Might have to grab one for multi-day festival season.
-
I don't get a clear impression that it's worthwhile to record 24-bit with this recorder, even though it supports the format.
I'm unaware of any tests on any small recorder which make a persuasive case for using 24 bits to demonstrably reduce noise under real-world conditions. For me, 24 bits is a safety net if you set the record level too low by accident, or if you want to be quite sure you don't get digital overloads on unexpected peaks and for that reason record low.
Meanwhile, I've been using a pair of Roland binaural in-ears with my M10 - whose internal mics I am famous for hating, but I don't always want to be walking round clutching an external mic - the stereo imaging on speakers, as well as on headphones, compared to the internals, is staggeringly better.
I do think that the impression given by many users of the technique that binaural sound isn't good on speakers is incorrect. Maybe on headphones you get the best results, but speaker replay is still impressive. Listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVf2sku8_W0 from about the 4 minute point. For me, on speakers, that plane goes by overhead, and is not on the same vertical plane as the waves. (Note however that I tend to listen to speakers a bit too close so they are at a wider than normal angle to my head).
Anyway, my M10 is now likely to get some renewed use. I'm hoping to get an opportunity to record a bit of live music with the binaurals before long. Meanwhile I'm having fun recording trains and supermarkets. With the former, I've made a point of recording a test not with the train doing the usual thing of passing from one side to another (yawn), but I stood facing along the line of the track so it came from behind and disappeared in front. Left/right any reasonable stereo mic can do, front / back requires binaural.
The biggest problem with using in-ear binaural mics is forcing yourself to keep your head pointing in a consistent direction, so that the stereo image doesn't whirl around on replay. A surprisingly un-natural thing to do (especially when watching tennis from the side!).
-
I've been using a 32GB Lexar Class 10 MicroSDHC card since last spring without a hiccup. Windows has no issues reading the card and the M10 has no issues with the card, ever.
I'm sure a 64GB card should work fine.
-
Time to start a new thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=160902.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=160902.0).