Topic: Record player/ Turntable recommendations?

[aleal5687]

I am looking to get nice entry level turntable set up. I would like to keep it under 400$ but another 50-100 won't break
the bank either. I am mostly looking to play my records with an occasional wave transfer(24/48). I already have a receiver
with a phono input so usb/phono preamp built-in doesn't matter. I just want a quality turntable with a decent cartridge
out of the box. I was leaning towards the Rega RP1 but after reading "Acidjack's" thread I am hesitant.

Here is what I have been looking at.


Music Hall USB-1 250$
http://www.insound.com/Music-Hall-USB-1-Turntable-TURNTABLE-Music-Hall/P/INS78593/

Pro-ject Audio Essential Turntable 300$
http://www.insound.com/Essential-Turntable-Black-TURNTABLE-Pro-Ject-Audio/P/INS102015/

Pro-ject Audio Essential Phono USB Turntable 400$
http://www.insound.com/Essential-Phono-USB-Turntable-Black-TURNTABLE-Pro-Ject-Audio/P/INS102018/

Pro-Ject Debut USB Turntable 400$
http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/it.A/id.8533/.f?sc=2&category=46

Rega RP1  445$
http://www.insound.com/RP1-Turntable-Cool-Grey-TURNTABLE-Rega/P/INS94393/

Music Hall MMF2.2 450$
http://www.insound.com/Music-Hall-MMF-22-with-Tracker-Cartridge-Gloss-Black-TURNTABLE-Music-Hall/P/INS70687/

Thorens TD-158 Turntable 450$
http://www.insound.com/TD-158-Turntable-TURNTABLE-Thorens/P/INS67101/

thanks in advance for any help/advice.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

I can't make any LP Rotater recommendations, but I can recommend that you check out your local CraigsList...  There always seems to be a noteworthy Disc-Spinner on mine:

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/ele/3045670813.html
http://raleigh.craigslist.org/ele/3039062974.html

Terry

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

I've heard good things about the new Pro-Ject Debut Carbon. Seems silly to go with the standard Debut at the same price:

http://www.needledoctor.com/Pro-Ject-Debut-Carbon-in-Black?sc=2&category=352

I have the Pro-Ject RM 1.3 and have been pretty happy with it. I like that the belt is easily changeable for 33 / 45 rpm as my collection contains a lot of 45 rpm records.

http://www.needledoctor.com/Pro-Ject-RPM1-3-Turntable-in-Black?sc=2&category=352

[H₂O]

You can save alot of money by buying a used table

[yousef]

Very happy Project Debut owner here...

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

You can save alot of money by buying a used table

+1

http://app.audiogon.com/listings?filter_category_id=36

[nickgregory]

I had a Rega P-1, replaced it with a thorens used deck and ended up with the Rega p3-24, which i still have.  I agree you can get alot of value out of used decks, but I have enjoyed the regas i have owned more than the used deck...

[H₂O]

Buy a used Rega then - you can save a bunch!

[mfrench]

Nick,
Are you running the outboard speed controller on the P3-24?

[nickgregory]

Nick,
Are you running the outboard speed controller on the P3-24?

yup...didnt think it would make a difference, but the difference was more than subtle...seemed to tighten up the lower end...

[mfrench]

The P3-24 that I had ran fast in both speeds, which would bass notes seem a bit higher pitched. This seems to be an issue with them, and not just the one that I had (sold it).  The controller probably slows the speed down to a proper pitch, thusly making the bass sound different, tighter.

[nickgregory]

I never noticed that it ran fast, but that wouldnt surprise me...I always heard that Regas were a tad fast in their entire product line.

[acidjack]

I don't know how experienced you are with vinyl, but I am not experienced at all and bought a Rega RP-1 on someone else's recommendation for an "entry level" TT.  I probably would not buy one again if given the choice and instead would go for a cheaper Technics or get a used TT and pay someone to put a new cartridge in it.  The Rega is marketed as "idiot proof" but still required me to spend yet more money on crap to set it up with, because the "idiot proof" settings it came with were totally wrong and it came with virtually no instructions (the last TT I owned was a totally automatic thing that was pretty much a piece of junk that I had in the mid-90s).  With the Rega, you also have to remove the platter and manually change over the belt to play 45s, which I find to be a huge PITA.  Also, it is made in the UK and the service is pretty much non-existent (keep in mind, I am in NYC, and the person they told me to call in NYC refused to service it).  While it sounds good, as someone who wanted something "entry level" I'd have been happy with something slightly lower in pure quality that could easily play 45s and had an actual service network. 

Obviously a used TT is less expensive, but you'd probably want to replace the cartridge unless you trusted the history you were given.  If you're good at replacing cartridges I'd almost definitely say to get a used TT and new cartridge before I'd drop $450 on the Rega.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

In regards to buying a NEW TT...I would HIGHLY suggest buying one from a reputable LOCAL dealer vs. buying on the interwebs. I don't think it's worth saving a few bucks on tax to give up the service. A TT requires a little bit of knowledge to set up, and while there is no reason you can't do it yourself, I found that it was really nice to have my local shop set mine up with their fancy do-dads and gizmos that I'd prefer not to buy (and if I did to rarely use).

Heck, if you want to buy used, you can probably say the same thing.

Amps, speakers, cables, etc...go ahead and buy on the internet if you want, but it's still nice to have that shop to go to when you have questions...and it's nice to support your local shop.

[acidjack]

In regards to buying a NEW TT...I would HIGHLY suggest buying one from a reputable LOCAL dealer vs. buying on the interwebs. I don't think it's worth saving a few bucks on tax to give up the service. A TT requires a little bit of knowledge to set up, and while there is no reason you can't do it yourself, I found that it was really nice to have my local shop set mine up with their fancy do-dads and gizmos that I'd prefer not to buy (and if I did to rarely use).

Heck, if you want to buy used, you can probably say the same thing.

Amps, speakers, cables, etc...go ahead and buy on the internet if you want, but it's still nice to have that shop to go to when you have questions...and it's nice to support your local shop.

So true, and another lesson I learned the hard way....

[ellaguru]

i enjoy my rega p1 with the rega fono pre.

[H₂O]

I am going to start by using the built in pre in my Denon but I will probably build my own opamp based phono pre eventually.

[mfrench]

I am going to start by using the built in pre in my Denon but I will probably build my own opamp based phono pre eventually.

With your knowledge of tubes, you should build a tube phono-stage.

[H₂O]

With your knowledge of tubes, you should build a tube phono-stage.

I am going to start out easy with a OpAmp solution versus discrete (either using a FET or Tube based solution) - I can work my way in that direction later on.

[DigiGal]

This is not an endorsement, but take a look at some of these... 

http://www.stereophile.com/category/turntable-reviews/

[H₂O]

With your knowledge of tubes, you should build a tube phono-stage.

I am going to start out easy with a OpAmp solution versus discrete (either using a FET or Tube based solution) - I can work my way in that direction later on.

I'd like to get comfortable with the RIAA phono equalization curve first

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Late to this thread but I'm in agreement with others that recommend buying a good used (possibly older, too?) turntable.  I will also add that you should steer clear of the Thorens TD-158 as there have been QC issues with them.  The older TD-150 and TD-160 are very good tables, though, and a good deal can occasionally be had on them if you're patient.

[mfrench]

Yep - older used decks.  I have seven older decks; two are older than I am (1952, 1955); one is my age (1959); two slightly younger (1963, 1964); and two that are 10 years younger (1970), the newest of the fleet.
The 1959 deck is my present daily driver.  I also use the 1952 deck, frequently.  I've hot-rodded the 1955 deck, the 1963 deck, and one of the 1970 decks; these are presently in storage while I build out my new music room.  The 1959 and 1964 decks have been faithfully restored, and upgraded in subtle ways; I have plans on keeping them in stock appearance, but upgrading their plinths to a more substantial standard, getting them out of their thin wall plywood box plinths.
As far as I'm concerned, true vintage era is best; built like tanks, with motors large enough to open my garage door.

[aleal5687]

Thanks for all the advise/suggestions.

I tried the used route(Craigslist/eBay) but was either a piece of crap usb turntable or I got outbid on the damn thing. Tried the local hi-fi / home theater music shop and got NO customer service.

After reading reviews and comparing different models in my price range I decided to go with a new Pro-ject Debut Carbon.  It comes with the Ortofon 2m red cart installed.
http://www.needledoctor.com/Pro-Ject-Debut-Carbon-in-Black

I found a coupon code to save 10% and free shipping!!

Now gotta decide with record to take for a spin first.


thanks again.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

That Debut Carbon looks pretty nice. Good choice.

[acidjack]

That Debut Carbon looks pretty nice. Good choice.

Agree. A little less coin than the Rega P1 and well regarded.

[acidjack]

This is not an endorsement, but take a look at some of these... 

http://www.stereophile.com/category/turntable-reviews/

I had a good laugh at many of those reviews.  The best part for me was how many times a "good value" or "bargain" was to be had for something with a five-figure price.

High-end turntable obsession makes hobbyist use of Schoeps and Neumanns etc. seem totally reasonable.

[mfrench]

There are quite a few TT's over $100k available.  To my eye, when they get that high-dollar, there is allot of tacky bling attached to them that is unnecessary.
This one is Saskia, and is around the $35k mark:

It is a solid slate stone plinth of the massive theory (minimum cut-out reduction from solid material), with CNC water jet cuts.  Its well over 200lbs of deck (250lbs?)  The tonearm alone is in the high four figure $,$$$.ºº zone.

[mfrench]

Then there is my effort,….

Was $15, with a dead amplifier, and, no headshell.


Then I added a $75 dollar slab of soapstone, and some elbow grease.
Now - a solid contender:

Since I had a whopping $90 in it with the soapstone, I decided to go all out extravagant and mount a Jelco 12" tonearm.  This brought it up to around $600 invested, plus a bunch of elbow grease, liberally applied (and that shizz is spendy!).
This is the hot-rodded 1963 deck that I mentioned earlier; a Bogen-Presto B51

[acidjack]

Heh, m0k3, are you going into the business of refurbing/rebuilding vintage TTs?  'Cause that thing is a beauty...

Since you seem to know a lot about this stuff, I'll take this chance to ask a dumb question - I notice that doesn't have a dust cover, and lots of HQ TTS don't.  Do you just cover those type of TTs with a cloth dust cover, or is the theory that some really HQ TTs don't "need" them?  My place picks up a good bit of dust, so I feel like it's pretty necessary, but maybe I'm missing something.

[mfrench]

Heh, m0k3, are you going into the business of refurbing/rebuilding vintage TTs?  'Cause that thing is a beauty...

Since you seem to know a lot about this stuff, I'll take this chance to ask a dumb question - I notice that doesn't have a dust cover, and lots of HQ TTS don't.  Do you just cover those type of TTs with a cloth dust cover, or is the theory that some really HQ TTs don't "need" them?  My place picks up a good bit of dust, so I feel like it's pretty necessary, but maybe I'm missing something.

Thanks!
No biz, but, I might consider appropriate offers of ridiculous levels.

I lay a clear plastic LP outer sleeve over the tonearm and one over the platter.  I don't have any dust covers on any of mine.  You'll see endless debate about them acting as sources of resonance, acting the part of vibrational antennae; so its fairly rare that you'll find them in the upper end category.

Here is another soapstoner - Its my rock table:
This is the 1955 hot-rod, Presto Recording Corp. Piouette T18.  I've completely redesigned the driveline on this one; adding a modern DC motor and controller, adding a different idler drive wheel from a Lenco, and another soapstone plinth.
It had three idler wheels on it before in its original state, which IMO, is two too many. So I now control the speed with a potentiometer mounted to the left-rear side of the plinth.  The controller dead-locks to speed with no need to adjust with testing of 6 months before I confirmed it to myself that it was dead-on stable. I can run it from one rpm (or a dead stop) to hundreds of RPM at the platter.
The tonearm is a free garage junk DIY build, called the RatsPaw, and its holder, the RatsTrap. I built it from left over scrap material from other projects.  Its a unipivot design.


Here is a test of a tables strength,….
Each of these decks weigh around 185lbs:

The one on the rack below the table is my present daily driver, from 1959, a Bogen-Presto B60 (Lenco L60 rebadge). The soapstone decks are in my storage garage while I build out my music room.

[acidjack]

^^ Those are amazing!

[H₂O]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-LENCO-BOGEN-Variable-Speed-Turntable-w-Empire-Cartridge-/290734529877

Here is an early L70 that sold for just over $200  - someone got a good deal!

[mfrench]

I was watching it too.
That one looks like a light platter version. The heavy platter has a more angular drop at the edge of the platter; not as rounded as that one that just ended.  The machining of the heavy platter resulted in the more angular appearance at the outer edge of the platte, and a real sharp break between vertical platter edge and the horizontal surface. That one has more of a rounded over edge to the platter, indicating it was stamped, which is indicative of the light steel platter.  The early B60's came in either light or heavy versions. my guess; light platter.  Someone could be in for a surprise.
Another indicator:
The early heavy platters are primed on the underside of the platter in a zinc chromate primer, which is a yellow-greenish primer without a finish coating. That one has a finish coating.

[mfrench]

I don't have a good image of what I'm trying to describe with this 'break", but you can see it in this one to a degree:

if you look for the chipped paint on the platter edge right above the speed control, you can see where the machining has left a hard edge right where the vertical platter edge breaks into the chamfered transition the leads up to the horizontal platter surface.  This is a heavy platter deck.
If you look at the recent eBay sale, towards the last of the images, where they get in close to the speed control, you'll not see this hard break; you'll see it is more rounded over.

[Teen Age Riot]

A little late to the party, but I'd recommend going vintage/used as well. Look into the stuff that was top of the line in the 70s. (It didn't get any better after that.) Manufacturers like Thorens, Dual etc. come to mind. They might need a bit of tlc, but it's worth it.

FWIW, I started out on a Project Debut ten years ago and went through all the available upgrades incl. external power supply, acryllic platter and better cartridges before I got a Dual 704 from the late 70s about three years ago. What a difference that made. I haven't looked back since. It's just a great and very user-friendly turntable. The only thing I kept from the Project rig was the cartridge, an AT 440mla which still sounds fine btw.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/ele/3126395915.html

[bryonsos]

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/ele/3126395915.html

 

[mfrench]

geez, that's a lot of money represented to be inviting strangers over for a listen.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/ele/3126395915.html

Anyone interested in a 2008 Honda Civic EX?

[acidjack]

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/ele/3126395915.html

 

Bryon, can you go pick that up for me?  I'll pay you when I'm in NC in Sept. 

[mfrench]

I'm calling it fiddly, to an extreme.  I'll take a pass.
I've never moved it off of its isolation table since it was new (in paraphrase)

[bryonsos]

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/ele/3126395915.html

 

Bryon, can you go pick that up for me?  I'll pay you when I'm in NC in Sept. 

Sure, I just need to remember where I put that ski mask and tire iron